Please help with 11th grade writing remediation?

[Gin in MS]

I am homeschooling my DD7 & DD8 for the first time, but it's my 11th grader/DD16 I need help with...for now. ;)

 

DD16 is remaining in public school for band - unfortunately, our district doesn't allow homeschool participation. She is like a sponge, rarely having to actively study because she absorbs almost everything. BUT! She needs remediation in writing; her paragraphs are a jumbled, random mess. I have tried to help her, but never having trouble with writing myself, I was clueless how to break through...it didn't make sense to me that she didn't know how to write a proper paragraph. After reading TWTM, I get it now. Many years late, but better late than never, right? It is beyond time for her to complete writing assignments without mom holding her hand the whole way.

 

She also recently informed me that she feels her grammar skills are lacking, so the plan is to work through grammar first - we have chosen MCT Magic Lens I. (She was in gifted, and after viewing the sample, she felt it was a good fit.) During this time we will also work on narration, copywork and dictation before moving into formal writing. I was originally planning to use MCT for writing as well, however, the general consensus seems to indicate it is not the best. Especially for struggling writers.

 

So, I *think* I have decided on WWS. Although, people have said WWS isn't the strongest for building word usage and style. (Can you tell I've been stalking the boards???) We plan to use MCT's CE...but I am not sure that will be enough. Should we go through some of CW, alternating with WWS to round out her writing? Is that too much?

 

Obviously we are limited with time and do not need to overload. Where possible, I will adapt whichever program we use to the English papers assigned from school - thankfully she doesn't begin English until next semester (block schedule).

 

I don't know if this is pertinent, but she has ADHD.

 

Of course, I'm open to any and all change. Thank you so much for your time!

[EKS]

I know you said it's beyond time for her to be independent with her writing, but honestly, the only way I know to teach writing is to sit with the student and scaffold like crazy.  So, if she has to write an essay, the first thing I'd do would be to have a discussion about whatever the prompt or topic is.  You take notes (I like to use a small whiteboard for this).  Once that's done, discuss how the information should be organized (put numbers next to each point on the whiteboard).  Then have her start writing (this should be done on the computer because she will be changing things quite a bit).  Discuss each sentence with her before she writes it.  Discuss transitions (keep a list next to the computer).  Discuss structuring sentences so that they start with old information and end with new.  Have her make changes as she goes.  Every time she finishes a paragraph, have her read it aloud.  If she doesn't find obvious errors/issues, read the paragraph to her exaggerating them.  That sort of thing.

 

Gradually over the next year you will remove the scaffold.  It would be great if she could do 12th grade without so much intervention.  If she is gifted, this remediation may go rather quickly.

 

Also, I wanted to add that MCT is a good choice for grammar.  It will give her the vocabulary she needs to be able to discuss her writing intelligently.  Be sure that you go through it with her so that you know what she knows (and what she doesn't).

[Gin in MS]

I know you said it's beyond time for her to be independent with her writing, but honestly, the only way I know to teach writing is to sit with the student and scaffold like crazy. So, if she has to write an essay, the first thing I'd do would be to have a discussion about whatever the prompt or topic is. You take notes (I like to use a small whiteboard for this). Once that's done, discuss how the information should be organized (put numbers next to each point on the whiteboard). Then have her start writing (this should be done on the computer because she will be changing things quite a bit). Discuss each sentence with her before she writes it. Discuss transitions (keep a list next to the computer). Discuss structuring sentences so that they start with old information and end with new. Have her make changes as she goes. Every time she finishes a paragraph, have her read it aloud. If she doesn't find obvious errors/issues, read the paragraph to her exaggerating them. That sort of thing.

 

Gradually over the next year you will remove the scaffold. It would be great if she could do 12th grade without so much intervention. If she is gifted, this remediation may go rather quickly.

 

Also, I wanted to add that MCT is a good choice for grammar. It will give her the vocabulary she needs to be able to discuss her writing intelligently. Be sure that you go through it with her so that you know what she knows (and what she doesn't).

I definitely intend to work through the curriculum with her...I hope it didn't sound like I wanted to push the help off onto a program. I do all those things with her, but it never seems to stick. It just hasn't seemed to help very much for me to guide her by myself. I don't know if it's me that needs a program to help teach her, or if she needs a middle man between us. Either way, I want to try a different approach to see if it helps. I did not even realize there are all these choices until I started researching homeschool for my littles!

 

Thanks so much for the advice!

[Gin in MS]

I just had a lightbulb moment. Thank you, EKS! Your response helped me realize I have it all wrong. Expressing herself is the crux. When she does, she is to the point, taciturn; when asked to elaborate, a wall goes up. It quickly exhausts her. I suspect it is a symptom of her ADHD. Guess it is very pertinent, after all.

 

Now to work through it...we will try narration, dictation and copywork. I'm hopeful that will focus and organize her thoughts.

[PeterPan]

Disclaimer, I'm not a huge MCT fan.  

 

I think your idea to use WWS is fine.  It has all the components you're needing.  Trim out the pieces she doesn't.  Does she NEED style?  My dd didn't need the copia, so we skipped it.  

 

If the Magic Lens doesn't fly, you could get really pragmatic and get the Abeka11 and be done with it.  It's traditional, chunked, doable, solid.  It's what SWB was taught on, yes?  It's what I've got my dd in.  :)

 

Just saw you said she has ADHD.  My dd does too.  :)  We did WWS really, really fast.  I had her use Inspiration software with it.  I get that hyper-compacted writing when she has nothing to say or isn't engaging.  When my dd had her neuropsych evals, turned out she had surprisingly low word retrieval and dramatically low processing speed.  Has your dd had a psych eval?  You might see if there are any hints in there.  My dd's processing speed means she REALLY needs time to process and get things out.  She has to be left alone.  She has to have clear structure.  She has to have something in her head she's trying to say.  She's not going to be one who just prattles things out.

 

Does your dd type?  Proficiently?  

 

The other thing that REALLY REALLY REALLY helped us was metronome work.  Costs you nothing, but it pulls together all the skills (working memory, motor planning, attention, language).  Heathermomster has instructions and you can come over to LC to find them.  You can google search for threads or to find my posts on how I did it.  It was way cool, cost nothing, and gave dd DRAMATIC improvement in her comfort in getting things out.  She still needs to type and still needs time, but it was MAJOR.

 

As far as the organization, yes to the idea of working together, making mind maps, and Inspiration software.  It's actually the major reason I like WWS (even though I agree with haters that it is dry as toast and bordering on soul-less), because it lets our kids, who are not necessarily linear, 123, kinda thinkers, think in fuller, more complex ways.  It lets them say OH THERE WAS a way to organize that.  Our kids have lots of connections and thoughts, they just don't realize how they organize into something OTHER people recognize.  I don't think it matters if you write a lot or a little with her, but I think if you get THAT to click, that's a great deed.

[PeterPan]

Ok, I'm confused here.  I would not take an 11th grader and do copywork, narration, dictation.  Copywork will be glitchy if she has any developmental vision issues, which kids with ADHD often do.  Dictation will be awful if she has low working memory, which kids with ADHD often do.  Narration will be grotesque because it's not age-appropriate, lol.  She's not 7 anymore, kwim?  Like my kid hit 7 and went "If you want to know what the book was about, why don't you read it yourself?!?!" and that was the END of narration with her.   :lol:

 

You can't do things that are not age-appropriate.  Those are nice theories, and sure I would get her eyes checked, work on working memory, etc.  I did working memory with the metronome work, which is what I suggested in my post.  But I would NOT do dictation alone with an 11th grader who is of full IQ, not remedial, and possibly even super bright just very ADHD.  There ARE times when it can be a really great super fit. But for this? That's just pedaling backwards.  I'd go to a more complex, engaging approach that is going to get her where she needs to be expeditiously.  

Edited August 26, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

Does she do email?  Do kids even do that anymore, or do they only text?  Does she have ANY context where she writes something and has something she wants to say?

 

There are age-appropriate things you could do together, like list-making or paired writing, sure.  You could do metronome work for a few weeks and follow it up each time with paired writing, absolutely.  That would be age-appropriate.  Then start into WWS accelerated.  

 

Totally different thing you could do that would be age-appropriate is outline engaging, well-written articles together.  Is there something she really likes?  Find a magazine article or essay on it and MAP it together using Inspiration software.  Do you have an ipad or tablet?  Or you can use a 16X20 whiteboard.  Walmart has them right now for cheap.  

 

That's the kind of stuff I did with my dd.

[Gin in MS]

Disclaimer, I'm not a huge MCT fan.

 

I think your idea to use WWS is fine. It has all the components you're needing. Trim out the pieces she doesn't. Does she NEED style? My dd didn't need the copia, so we skipped it.

 

If the Magic Lens doesn't fly, you could get really pragmatic and get the Abeka11 and be done with it. It's traditional, chunked, doable, solid. It's what SWB was taught on, yes? It's what I've got my dd in. :)

 

Just saw you said she has ADHD. My dd does too. :) We did WWS really, really fast. I had her use Inspiration software with it. I get that hyper-compacted writing when she has nothing to say or isn't engaging. When my dd had her neuropsych evals, turned out she had surprisingly low word retrieval and dramatically low processing speed. Has your dd had a psych eval? You might see if there are any hints in there. My dd's processing speed means she REALLY needs time to process and get things out. She has to be left alone. She has to have clear structure. She has to have something in her head she's trying to say. She's not going to be one who just prattles things out.

 

Does your dd type? Proficiently?

 

The other thing that REALLY REALLY REALLY helped us was metronome work. Costs you nothing, but it pulls together all the skills (working memory, motor planning, attention, language). Heathermomster has instructions and you can come over to LC to find them. You can google search for threads or to find my posts on how I did it. It was way cool, cost nothing, and gave dd DRAMATIC improvement in her comfort in getting things out. She still needs to type and still needs time, but it was MAJOR.

 

As far as the organization, yes to the idea of working together, making mind maps, and Inspiration software. It's actually the major reason I like WWS (even though I agree with haters that it is dry as toast and bordering on soul-less), because it lets our kids, who are not necessarily linear, 123, kinda thinkers, think in fuller, more complex ways. It lets them say OH THERE WAS a way to organize that. Our kids have lots of connections and thoughts, they just don't realize how they organize into something OTHER people recognize. I don't think it matters if you write a lot or a little with her, but I think if you get THAT to click, that's a great deed.

She has never had a psych-eval. I'll have to check into it. She is a voracious reader, has always tested extremely high in reading comprehension (her last one showed she reads on university level). Her vision is great. And, she types proficiently - our school district assigns laptops beginning in 6th grade. She has also taken a few computer courses (the first of which is mainly typing).

 

I'll keep your suggestion for Abeka in mind - thanks!

 

I agree with you about WWS being dry...I almost decided not to use it, but I think it will help organize her thoughts, and thus writing. Which is also the reason I decided on narration, dictation and copywork. I thought it might help slow down and arrange her thoughts to go very basic at first, work on summarizing, memory and study individual well-composed sentences. I talked it over with her, showed her samples, and explained that I know it's way below her level, but I thought it might help to begin there. She nodded profusely. I only intend to do it as more of a crash course - not something we would do for an extended period of time.

 

The way you described your dd's thought patterns, needing time to sort it out - yes! My dd is my opposite - I talk until I figure out exactly how I feel and what I want to say; she is silent, and sometimes isn't able to quiet her thoughts and surroundings enough to work it out. (With 3 smaller children, our house is never quiet.)

 

As far as style goes...not sure. If we can get her organization up, I'm sure that will become clearer. If I did introduce another curriculum it would be after we've worked through a chunk of WWS.

 

This metronome stuff you mention - I'll absolutely look into that. By LC do you mean Learning Challenges board here?

 

Thank you so much - this helped a ton!

[Gin in MS]

Does she do email? Do kids even do that anymore, or do they only text? Does she have ANY context where she writes something and has something she wants to say?

 

There are age-appropriate things you could do together, like list-making or paired writing, sure. You could do metronome work for a few weeks and follow it up each time with paired writing, absolutely. That would be age-appropriate. Then start into WWS accelerated.

 

Totally different thing you could do that would be age-appropriate is outline engaging, well-written articles together. Is there something she really likes? Find a magazine article or essay on it and MAP it together using Inspiration software. Do you have an ipad or tablet? Or you can use a 16X20 whiteboard. Walmart has them right now for cheap.

 

That's the kind of stuff I did with my dd.

She uses the hangout feature within her email to text. Lol! She has group chats with her friends which are very interesting. They role-play, making up stories. One will type a sentence or two, then the next will add to it with another, and so on. They do this almost daily. But writing academic papers is a lot different, of course.

 

Thank you so much for all these tips! I appreciate it more than I can express.

[Gin in MS]

I looked into the IM thread. DD has lots of experience with metronome - she's been in band (flute) since 6th grade, and has taken lots of music classes outside of that: piano, guitar, theory, etc. Rhythm and beat speak to her soul - she has no trouble slowing down and absorbing in that area. Would it help her to use it while writing/thinking? That might be too distracting...

 

I should clarify some things. When she was younger, the ADHD was worse - I got calls on a regular basis in 1st grade about her dancing during class, walking around, sitting under her desk. I ended up putting her on ADHD meds that year. HUGE regret. (She wasn't completing her work and was at risk of failing.) We didn't use it on weekends or the summer, as approved by her doc.

 

She had an amazing teacher in 2nd who shared my concerns about the meds and worked with DD - she didn't take meds at all in 2nd. The teacher kept me informed what was effective and what wasn't. In 3rd I explained all this to her new teacher, but it didn't work out; I had to put her back on meds. 4th & 5th were the same. In 6th, they go to a different school, and I decided not to tell the teachers about her ADHD, nor give her the meds. In our experience, nearly all of her elementary teachers blamed every tiny thing on ADHD, assumed she didn't take her meds every time she so much as spaced out for a couple minutes in class.

 

I don't know if she naturally calmed down by 6th grade (the doc said that happens often), or if it was music that did it, but she's been fine since - no meds at all since 5th.

 

Unfortunately, we were not in the position to homeschool at that point, or I would have pulled her out in 1st. I was entirely opposed to medication, but when it came down to her potentially failing, with no other options, I didn't know what else to do. We implemented strict structure, but that didn't help in school. I have theories as to why, but that's for another day. ;)

 

The only time she has trouble slowing down now is while expressing herself aloud or in writing. She fidgets slightly sometimes, but not often. She can have a conversation fine, albeit with few words and straight to the point. It's going into more detail that is the problem. When she does it is disorderly and choppy. And when I work with her on writing assignments, guiding her to see the issues, she goes deer in the headlights. It's very frustrating for her because she is very intelligent and capable in all other areas.

 

She does not like math or drawing - things of that nature are too tedious for her. She is capable of doing it, DOES do it, and makes excellent grades in classes like that...Although, she'll never take a drawing class again! She loves art history and greatly appreciates other people's art, but that's as far is it goes.

 

Oh, and about memory work - she really has no problems with memory. I'm not kidding when I say she remembers almost everything and rarely has to study. She spouts off intriguing quotes word for word. In that vein, I realize dictation may be overkill. My goal was to store well-constructed sentences in her head, which might result in her constructing better, less choppy sentences.

 

Does this make any sense at all?

[PeterPan]

She uses the hangout feature within her email to text. Lol! She has group chats with her friends which are very interesting. They role-play, making up stories. One will type a sentence or two, then the next will add to it with another, and so on. They do this almost daily. But writing academic papers is a lot different, of course.

 

Thank you so much for all these tips! I appreciate it more than I can express.

 

This is telling you that she's comfortable getting her thoughts out when she has time.  Given her prolific reading and high reading level, my *guess* is the language and sentence complexity is inside and will come out.  If you want, try some Killgallon or do the copia exercises in WWS. 

[PeterPan]

To do a site search, go to your google bar and type the terms and site:welltrainedmind.com  So when I do that for "ohelizabeth metronome work site:welltrainedmind.com" I get

 

Calling Heathermomster or another metronome guru - The Learning ...

 

Who has used Interactive Metronome? - The Learning Challenges ...

 

These are some threads to get you started.  Metronome work of any kind is tapping into the frontal lobes of the brain affected by the ADHD.  So my approach, when doing the exercises, was to try to pull together ALL the processes necessary for writing.  I needed the ability to handle distractions (the metronome), working memory (to hold her thoughts and not drop them), language output (thoughts to words), and motor planning (so she could type or write).  All of this we got TOGETHER in doing the metronome work the way I did.  

 

I agree that her music work is good!  If you try the exercises and she's a cinch at it, then up the challenge or move on.  It's free to try, mercy.  I think you might find pockets that will help her.  When someone has low processing speed, extra working memory can help compensate.  So doing digit spans aloud while you do the metronome work is giving her distraction, working memory, language output, and motor planning, all the things she needs to have writing come together and be easier.

 

Does she have an office?  We gave my dd an office with a door.  She uses noise canceling earbuds with music while she works.  Your dd may need a limited distraction environment for her writing.  

[PeterPan]

Although the actual meds have been basically the same for how many years, the *dispensing* systems have changed radically.  You might consider having that conversation with your ped again, this time starting slow and working up.  She's old enough now to give you feedback.  Vyvanse is one of the most advanced meds, with an exceptionally even delivery system.  You don't get the ups and downs that you get on some of the other XR meds.  The experience she had before, with it being too much or too low at various points in the day and causing symptoms, might not be the case with some of the newer meds.  It's just a thought.

 

Also, just for your trivia, the articles I've read say that ADHD that seems to go away is still there if you look at brain scans.  How is she doing with driving?  That's one place it really shows up.  The meds can improve processing and attention, reduce noise fatigue and anxiety.  The accident rates are very high on unmedicated ADHD.

[PeterPan]

Yes, LC=Learning Challenges.  You're welcome to come over there.  Sometimes people haunt one section or another and don't move around.  :)

[TKDmom]

The only time she has trouble slowing down now is while expressing herself aloud or in writing. She fidgets slightly sometimes, but not often. She can have a conversation fine, albeit with few words and straight to the point. It's going into more detail that is the problem. When she does it is disorderly and choppy. And when I work with her on writing assignments, guiding her to see the issues, she goes deer in the headlights. It's very frustrating for her because she is very intelligent and capable in all other areas.

 

She does not like math ...

Oh, and about memory work - she really has no problems with memory. I'm not kidding when I say she remembers almost everything and rarely has to study. She spouts off intriguing quotes word for word. In that vein, I realize dictation may be overkill. My goal was to store well-constructed sentences in her head, which might result in her constructing better, less choppy sentences.

 

Ohmygosh, you guys. In discussing your dd, she sounds just like my dd15 (except my dd loves creating art). She's never been diagnosed with ADHD, but I've wondered since dd7 went through a psych evaluation this summer and the psych pointed out she's super impulsive with low working memory. I'd always thought of dd7 as a smaller version of dd15. She's just *more* so.

Dd15 can memorize anything. She loves to create stories with people on her forums. She has to have noise cancelling headphones, and desperately wants her own space to work. She can't write an academic assignment to save her life... Sigh.

 

Thanks so much for this thread. It's so helpful to see I'm not alone and that her writing woes aren't all my fault. I suspect that she would be floundering if she were in school. Dh thinks she can't write because I've never expected enough....

[Tiramisu]

Rats! I lost my long reply.

 

 

Even though your reasons for the copywork and narration are right on target, I agree with Elizabeth that they are not appropriate for an 11th grader.

 

The short, choppy sentence and lack of elaboration is related to the lower working memory and processing. If you had three or four years, your plan *might* work as a kind of remediation or therapy, but it's not a reasonable for an 11th grader with ADHD. Sorry. I really am.

 

So she's an excellent reader. That tells me, like OhE said, the good thoughts and recognition of good language is in there. But you are going to have to help her access it in light of her lower working memory and processing. She's going to need clear, straight-forward instruction with scaffolding and lots of practice. I personally think WWS isn't the best choice because it's wordy. It could work better if you wanted to go through and abbreviate it like Elizabeth did for her DD, as well as highlight the most essential information.

 

For her brain, I'm thinking instruction that's broken down into small bits, explicit, and scaffolding.

 

And whatever you decide to use, sit with her for every chance you have, including every piece of school assigned writing, like EKS described, so you can help her put what she's learning into practice and re-wire her brain, and not let her continue to further reinforce her current way of writing.

 

I think she needs a curriculum that includes the following skills hit in these ways:

 

For elaboration: practice brainstorming. It really helped my DD who couldn't elaborate.

 

For organization: outlining. Many methods are out there. One might work for her. Inspiration software.

 

For better, less choppy sentences: consider the working memory and deal with it in steps because she can't do it all at once. Let her write her ideas in a draft, however they come out. Choppy is fine for a draft, but teach her to revise as a separate step.

 

She can take the choppy sentences and make them better by adding details with modifiers, phrases, clauses, all strategicall placed, combining. I think Killgallon would help with this. Maybe I E W would help, too. So what if it's formulaic? It would be a start.

 

Metronome work would not be my choice for an advanced musician. My DD14's life was changed through Interactive Metronome, but I believe my older DD's got the same or better benefit from music. Complex music is even more challenging than IM with a rocking occupational therapist. I've witnessed both. Just make sure she's getting challenged with music that's hard to play.

 

I also wanted to reassure you that the terseness will come in handy in college. My dd has to write summaries of professional literature all the time and that combination of high reading comprehension with brevity is a true asset now. And it will be as she does her own research studies next year and in grad school.

 

And don't regret the meds. That's your doctor's fail, not yours. When one of my DD's started meds for ADHD and we had a bad reaction, the doctor had me stop it and bring her in that day. We had frequent appointments to monitor and change meds and tweak dosages. So if someone says they were on meds for a year and it was one med and it wasn't a good experience, I ask myself, "Why wasn't the doctor doing his job?!!" There are a lot of different meds at various dosages. I do 't know the details of your experience, but don't discount the benefits of meds from one bad experience. I'm bringing that up (1) so you don't blame yourself, and (2) so that door is open for your DD if she ends up in college and truly hits a wall with her ability to compensate.

 

I'm actually thinking an IEW student intensive might suit. ??

Edited August 27, 2016 by Tiramisu

[Gin in MS]

Sigh. I'm going to try this again...no idea what I just did  :lol:

 

Edited August 28, 2016 by Gin in MS

[Gin in MS]

This is telling you that she's comfortable getting her thoughts out when she has time. Given her prolific reading and high reading level, my *guess* is the language and sentence complexity is inside and will come out. If you want, try some Killgallon or do the copia exercises in WWS.

Sort of...they only write one or two sentences at a time...and calling most of them "sentences" is a stretch. :lol:

 

I am not sure she has low processing speed...based on what I have read about it, which I realize isn't a valid way to diagnose. But, her teachers tell me she pays attention in class, and since she performs well on all of her tests without studying I would have to agree this must be true. Now, when there is a lot of noise in class while she is trying to work on an assignment she has trouble focusing. She can't block the noise. (When I was in school this was not allowed...and I firmly believe it shouldn't be.) She also performs well on standardized tests (almost always scores advanced, high proficient otherwise). She has no trouble with mental math or complex word problems.

 

I may be misunderstanding, but it seems like she would have trouble in these areas if she had low processing speed? I am, however, going to talk to her doc about getting her tested.

 

Thank you again for bringing all this to my attention.

[EKS]

Narration will be grotesque because it's not age-appropriate, lol.  She's not 7 anymore, kwim?  

 

I disagree.  Narration--in the form of summarization--is a key academic writing skill.  I would start by having her write summaries because it eliminates the needing to have ideas factor but still gets at other core skills like producing appropriate beginnings and endings, transitions, accuracy, prosody, and coherence.

[reign]

I love narration, dictation, and copy work. I find all three very helpful with my elementary age girls. Since you're daughter is a junior though I would do IEW. I think it is the best option in your situation. It is easy to follow and will give her a framework to use when writing for school. The IEW podcasts are very helpful in understanding how it all works.

[Gin in MS]

Rats! I lost my long reply.

 

 

Even though your reasons for the copywork and narration are right on target, I agree with Elizabeth that they are not appropriate for an 11th grader.

 

The short, choppy sentence and lack of elaboration is related to the lower working memory and processing. If you had three or four years, your plan *might* work as a kind of remediation or therapy, but it's not a reasonable for an 11th grader with ADHD. Sorry. I really am.

 

So she's an excellent reader. That tells me, like OhE said, the good thoughts and recognition of good language is in there. But you are going to have to help her access it in light of her lower working memory and processing. She's going to need clear, straight-forward instruction with scaffolding and lots of practice. I personally think WWS isn't the best choice because it's wordy. It could work better if you wanted to go through and abbreviate it like Elizabeth did for her DD, as well as highlight the most essential information.

 

For her brain, I'm thinking instruction that's broken down into small bits, explicit, and scaffolding.

 

And whatever you decide to use, sit with her for every chance you have, including every piece of school assigned writing, like EKS described, so you can help her put what she's learning into practice and re-wire her brain, and not let her continue to further reinforce her current way of writing.

 

I think she needs a curriculum that includes the following skills hit in these ways:

 

For elaboration: practice brainstorming. It really helped my DD who couldn't elaborate.

 

For organization: outlining. Many methods are out there. One might work for her. Inspiration software.

 

For better, less choppy sentences: consider the working memory and deal with it in steps because she can't do it all at once. Let her write her ideas in a draft, however they come out. Choppy is fine for a draft, but teach her to revise as a separate step.

 

She can take the choppy sentences and make them better by adding details with modifiers, phrases, clauses, all strategicall placed, combining. I think Killgallon would help with this. Maybe I E W would help, too. So what if it's formulaic? It would be a start.

 

Metronome work would not be my choice for an advanced musician. My DD14's life was changed through Interactive Metronome, but I believe my older DD's got the same or better benefit from music. Complex music is even more challenging than IM with a rocking occupational therapist. I've witnessed both. Just make sure she's getting challenged with music that's hard to play.

 

I also wanted to reassure you that the terseness will come in handy in college. My dd has to write summaries of professional literature all the time and that combination of high reading comprehension with brevity is a true asset now. And it will be as she does her own research studies next year and in grad school.

 

And don't regret the meds. That's your doctor's fail, not yours. When one of my DD's started meds for ADHD and we had a bad reaction, the doctor had me stop it and bring her in that day. We had frequent appointments to monitor and change meds and tweak dosages. So if someone says they were on meds for a year and it was one med and it wasn't a good experience, I ask myself, "Why wasn't the doctor doing his job?!!" There are a lot of different meds at various dosages. I do 't know the details of your experience, but don't discount the benefits of meds from one bad experience. I'm bringing that up (1) so you don't blame yourself, and (2) so that door is open for your DD if she ends up in college and truly hits a wall with her ability to compensate.

 

I'm actually thinking an IEW student intensive might suit. ??

I hear what you guys are saying about the copywork and dictation. I thought since reading regularly hasn't seemed to help her, maybe a more isolated and purposeful study of individual well-written sentences/paragraphs would. On that note, MCT might help in this area, as my understanding is it gives in-depth analyzation, just not a lot of specific direction. I keep referring to MCT because I think his style will appeal to dd's musical propensity.

 

My thinking on this keeps evolving, or at least becoming clearer, during this discussion and reading (and re-reading) across the boards. I may have identified the root cause of why I haven't been much assistance to dd in regards to writing. I am whole-to-parts. I write, organize, and edit this way. I believe she has trouble seeing the trees through the forest, so my method is backwards to what she needs.

 

Which reinforces WWS - I understand it is very much parts-to-whole. That's why I chose it to begin with, though I didn't truly understand why; it is completely different from my approach and, as such, would cover our bases. However, I've also read the contrast of WWS and CW is that a) CW holds your hand a little more, and b) CW focuses more on fiction, whereas WWS is mostly non-fiction. My dd much prefers fiction, so I thought CW would make a good supplement.

 

I am going to adapt whatever curriculum(s) we use - I have to due to our time limitations.

 

Tiramisu, thank you for the tips regarding elaboration and organization, too. I will look into the Inspiration software you guys have mentioned. I hold to the fresh-eyes perspective - there is no better way to edit, IMO.

 

I have looked into Kilgallon but I'll have to check again; it didn't make much sense to me - seemed like busywork but that's probably because it's parts-to-whole.

 

IEW makes my head spin. Do I go with TWSS or SWI or theme-based? There are so many options. In the end I decided I can't be sure IEW will teach me the parts-to-whole method that WWS will. That is a pretty big investment for something that may not be what I need. If anyone can provide clarity on that, I'm all ears. Plus, the sample video I viewed of SWI seems like it's geared towards younger children...This may seem contradictory in wanting to do copywork and dictation with dd, but I intended to use age appropriate material. I wasn't going to buy FLL for her. ;)

 

ADHD medication - I am not wholly opposed to it, but I never felt it was necessary for dd in particular. She was diagnosed with *mild* ADHD. Her 2nd grade teacher found it very easy to redirect her attention back to her class work; the teacher simply had to be aware of anything that could be a distraction for dd, and/or periodically think of checking on dd, then wave her hand to get dd's attention if she appeared to be mentally wandering. That's it. No disrupting the rest of the class, nor was it time consuming for the teacher. The teacher said dd would instantly sort of shake herself out of it and get back to work. Unfortunately, dd's other elementary teachers could not manage this. FWIW, dd made straight A's in 2nd grade without once taking ADHD meds.

 

She also had no issues remaining in her seat after 1st grade. I honestly believe that was an issue specific to that classroom: the 1st grade teacher was very affectionate with dd because she reminded the teacher of her granddaughter. In return, the teacher reminded dd of her own great-grandmother, who let dd play even when it was not the appropriate time. Not exactly ideal.

 

She does not drive yet, nor have any desire to any time soon...practically breaks out in hives at mere mention of it. She respects how dangerous driving actually is (IMHO, I believe this is the root of most accidents), and feels it is too much pressure to take on at this time. Fine with me. :lol: If she does have any trouble with driving we will reevaluate our options. Safety is always top priority. But, I'm hopeful it won't be an issue. She does, after all, manage to do "visuals" (dance-like movements) while marching in line, while playing flute without running into someone or falling. ;) Marching band requires fairly intense coordination, focus, and awareness of your surroundings.

 

I want to thank you all again. You've helped me so much!

[Gin in MS]

I disagree. Narration--in the form of summarization--is a key academic writing skill. I would start by having her write summaries because it eliminates the needing to have ideas factor but still gets at other core skills like producing appropriate beginnings and endings, transitions, accuracy, prosody, and coherence.

Yes! This is exactly what I was thinking.

[Gin in MS]

I love narration, dictation, and copy work. I find all three very helpful with my elementary age girls. Since you're daughter is a junior though I would do IEW. I think it is the best option in your situation. It is easy to follow and will give her a framework to use when writing for school. The IEW podcasts are very helpful in understanding how it all works.

I responded in a different post about IEW, but I'll put it separately here.

 

Does IEW clearly teach parts-to-whole so that I (a whole-to-parts person) can understand it? It may not matter whether I get it as long as she does...but if she needs help I'm concerned if I don't have explicit instruction in parts-to-whole I might be useless.

 

Also, which IEW would you recommend? The sample video of SWI seemed gears towards younger students. As I said in the other post, I realize copywork, narration and dictation are way below her level, but I did intend to use age appropriate sentences/paragraphs.

 

Are the IEW podcasts (or a sample) available without purchasing the curriculum? I don't think I've viewed the full site (just the mobile), so it's likely I have missed some things. I'll have to check into it more. Any advice is much appreciated, though! Thank you.

[Tiramisu]

My vote would be for the IEW student intensive. It's video based so it will do the teaching while you follow along.

[Pen]

We found Brave Writer the most helpful approach. Different kids respond to different approaches.

[TKDmom]

We found Brave Writer the most helpful approach. Different kids respond to different approaches.

I started using Help for High School with dd15. I'm really enjoying it. I think I should be doing the exercises too, to help me with my own writing woes.

[PeterPan]

Sort of...they only write one or two sentences at a time...and calling most of them "sentences" is a stretch. :lol:

 

I am not sure she has low processing speed...based on what I have read about it, which I realize isn't a valid way to diagnose. But, her teachers tell me she pays attention in class, and since she performs well on all of her tests without studying I would have to agree this must be true. Now, when there is a lot of noise in class while she is trying to work on an assignment she has trouble focusing. She can't block the noise. (When I was in school this was not allowed...and I firmly believe it shouldn't be.) She also performs well on standardized tests (almost always scores advanced, high proficient otherwise). She has no trouble with mental math or complex word problems.

 

I may be misunderstanding, but it seems like she would have trouble in these areas if she had low processing speed? I am, however, going to talk to her doc about getting her tested.

 

Thank you again for bringing all this to my attention.

 

The processing speed scores are in the IQ testing a psych does.

 

What you're describing with the background noise could be some mild APD or dichotic listening issues.  My dd had complained about it for years, so I finally took her to an audiologist who had the full booth set-up to do the screening portion of the SCAN3.  At our university you can get that done for $35.  My dd is right on the line, which means they call it a relative weakness.  They told her which ear had the advantage (for seating placement!) and explained some compensations.  For us it was good info. 

 

Some kids with ADHD have enough APD issues that it pushes over to an actual APD/CAPD diagnosis.  I'm just saying if you want to pursue that, it's something you can get info on for better accommodations.  And it's something that, annecdotally, gets helped somewhat with the ADHD meds.

 

Adding onto what Misu explained, I'll just say that when we used WWS I went through it and highlighted the important parts.  I agree it's dry and overly wordy, just a mess for some kids.  And people can have theories or opinions on that, so I'm just saying what I did.  I went through it with a pack of highlighters, chunking, writing notes, highlighting important parts, etc., and I used colors to distinguish the days.  She was in 8th and 9th grades at the time, so she could easily do more than one section a day.  So everything I wanted her to do for the day was highlighted in one color.  Next day's tasks were the next color.  Then on her planner it just said WWS blue, WWS pink, that kind of thing.

 

We're not seeing your dd or her writing.  I think you're just going to have to use your judgment and work into things.  At the very least I wouldn't hold back from getting into things.  Your time is really, really short.  You basically are using this year to get stuff done.  Maybe do writing boot camp for a week, see where she's at, and get WWS highlighted and ready to go for next week.  The starting point on WWS should be within reach for her, and it does include Killgallon style sentence-combining exercises, iirc.  Not as many, but oh well.  You're not going to be able to do EVERYTHING.  It's enough if you get in her head and have her figuring out what she's trying to do and WHY she wants to do it.  She can continue to grow as a writer at that point.

[PeterPan]

Another age-appropriate thing to do (sort of the swanked version of copywork) would be a "copia" notebook.  My dd LOVES pretty journals and notebooks, so maybe yours does too?  You just keep one and ask her to write into it an interesting, well-written, or compelling quote each day.  And maybe then discuss or have her annotate WHY she thinks it's worth copying.  If she's reading avidly, she might really enjoy this.

[PeterPan]

We found Brave Writer the most helpful approach. Different kids respond to different approaches.

 

For the op, there are Brave Writer classes online, and sometimes kids do really well with the structure, the audience, the accountability.  It's actually a really good suggestion if you want something different!  Or, you know, you could burn through WWS 1st semester and do a BW class 2nd semester.  There's a BW photography class I thought sounded good.  She could do that on top of WWS if you wanted, or the one first semester the other 2nd semester.  Then next year do a BW research paper class or something.

 

Just different ways.  Audience, competition, these definitely bring out good things in my dd.  Audience is SO lacking in WWS, it really killed us.  I finally found myself making up audiences and reasons for the work, so she'd know who she was writing to and be able to get into it.  It was just a mental hurdle for her, kwim?  I always tell this story, but she had one in WWS that was so seemingly pointless, I finally told her to do it as a "You're fired!" roast from Trump (Apprentice).  She did a great job, but it cracks me up to think about now that he's running.  So Trump helped us do our writing, hehe.

Edited August 29, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Gin in MS]

OhElizabeth, you are so helpful! Thank you for sharing your method of abbreviating and planning WWS, sharing your experiences with your dd, and all of your suggestions. I am listening and taking notes!

 

I just told dd yesterday that I am going to give her a writing assignment to see where she is. She is NOT happy about that, but she'll survive. I think I've looked at Bravewriter before, but at this point, who knows? :lol: Gah, so many choices! I'll go check it out now.

 

And, yes, we are getting started ASAP.

 

Thank you all again!

[PeterPan]

People rise to your expectations.  I wouldn't test, but I would give lots of STRUCTURE, lots of clear expectations, set her up for success.  

 

Also, my personal opinion is that almost anything is tolerable if you do it fast enough.   ;)

 

In other words, go fast and furious when you do it, and do fun stuff when you aren't.  Like do WWS double pace, but on one week, off the next.  Work the curriculum into what you want, instead of having it work you.  Or do WWS 4 days a week (gag) and then do some FUN writing on Fridays (joy!).  She clearly likes to write, so create some balance like that in your lives.  Play with it.  

 

How is her grammar?  You could do Mad Libs and Killgallon on Fridays.   :)

 

Fun writing for this age?  Um, writing prompts, list making, anything where you BOTH write and then give feedback to each other.  Go zany or fun.  I had some poetry writing resources I tried with my dd one year.  The Don't Forget to Write book for this age is AMAZING.  

 

Fwiw, I would have her do some writing across other subjects as well.  Last year I had my dd doing a response journal for science and aesthetics reading.  She really grumbled about that till she met a prof saying that's what they would be doing, lol.  You could think about ways to sneak in small amounts of writing here and there in other subjects.  Even just a couple sentences, done with thought and with effort, consistently, week after week, can be really valuable.  SWB calls it nibbled to death by ducks.   :D

Edited August 29, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Pen]

OhElizabeth, you are so helpful! Thank you for sharing your method of abbreviating and planning WWS, sharing your experiences with your dd, and all of your suggestions. I am listening and taking notes!

 

I just told dd yesterday that I am going to give her a writing assignment to see where she is. She is NOT happy about that, but she'll survive. I think I've looked at Bravewriter before, but at this point, who knows? :lol: Gah, so many choices! I'll go check it out now.

 

And, yes, we are getting started ASAP.

 

Thank you all again!

 

 

My ds took one of their online classes a few years ago, and then another one this summer. Easier way to implement it than using the written materials.

[Gin in MS]

Thank y'all again for all of these great resources and tips!

[Pen]

A thought: If you did go with BW, maybe an online class now, such as expository essay, before she starts her English block next semester would help-- if there is time on top of her other studies and band.  

[Gin in MS]

A thought: If you did go with BW, maybe an online class now, such as expository essay, before she starts her English block next semester would help-- if there is time on top of her other studies and band.

That's a great idea. Thanks!