Parents of athletes: Has the coach ever made your child cry?

[Hammfried]

Hi, I'm relatively new to the hive and thought to seek out anybody who has BTDT.

 

DD has been taking lessons with Coach for about 1.5 years. Our family is pretty relaxed about her sport/extra-curricular activities. We are in no way competitive at this (really any?) stage of life. DD chose this sport herself and is generally pretty happy at it. This is her fun "thing." Whatever her fun thing is, we support it and cheer her on. We do gently remind her that if she wants to learn and master any skill in life, not just sports, that it would require practice. If it ever got to a point where I had to "nag" her to practice then we would back off and either stop the activity or take a short break.

 

This week during lessons, Coach grew impatient with DD's regression of skills. Coach started yelling at DD that she was doing it wrong, which made DD shut down emotionally and tune her out, which then further irritated Coach. The lesson ended with DD leaving and crying.

 

I had a difficult time just watching all of this. I am still getting upset just typing this out. I know that practice and hard work are required to overcome any difficulty but I'm not so sure about all of the yelling and berating. I talked to DD immediately after the lesson, throughout the day after we returned home, and even this morning just to check in on her emotional well being. I let her know that if she ever wanted to stop or change coaches, that she could. She finally admitted after some prodding that she didn't like Coach yelling at her BUT that she didn't want to stop. We then took a little train field trip to clear our heads and hearts today (such is the beauty of homeschooling :) ).

 

Have any parents had to witness coaches/teachers yelling at their child? What did you do to encourage your child afterwards? Did you stay with the same coach? I tried to talk to Coach afterwards for anything constructive to help and Coach simply said, "She doesn't listen." That left me at a loss of words to respond with. I agree that DD does need to practice in order to get better but I don't want to traumatize her youth either.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Hammfried

[hjffkj]

I find yelling to be an ineffective coaching technique and would not stay with a coach who used it, unless they were telling because the student was doing something unsafe.

 

My kids do martial arts. They get a stern talking to if they are disruptive or are doing something dangerous but other than that it is fun and matter of fact training. If they regress the instructors, specifically their father, encourages them to practice more or come to classes more but they also help them with specific techniques to help them member certain moves.

[catz]

What age is your child?

[Tess in the Burbs]

Yep. Dd eventually left gymnastics team due to what felt like targeted yelling from her coach. Another coach told me Dd responded better when pushed hard/yelling. But it broke her down emotionally. If she talks about that coach she cries even now, years later. I pointed out to the coach it was beyond helpful coaching in a strong tone. She agreed but it didn't stop. She humiliated Dd many times. I'm glad Dd chose to leave, but she misses gym team. I can't do it again though. It was so hard to decide what to say and when to let her handle it. I am glad I intervened, but wish I had done it sooner.

[zoobie]

Being corrected by coaches has been beneficial for DS. He has always been very sensitive to corrections. Yes, coaches have made him cry, but not from being mean. For a very long time, if you talked to him after he made a mistake, he would cry.

 

DH coached him when he was younger. He's had a couple of parents flip out on him for "yelling" at their child. On a baseball field, sometimes you have to yell for kids to hear you across the field. Once was that reason--child was in the outfield, facing away and DH yelled "Bobby, bring it in!" (Come back to the group). Another time was "Bobby, head's up!" to a kid who wasn't paying attention and was about to get donked by a ball.

 

So...yelling as in a loud voice? Yelling as in screaming at the child with mean words? How old is the child? Paid or volunteer coach? Sport? (I'm noticing football coaches yell more than baseball coaches partly because the kids can't hear them inside the helmets, but they're not being mean. Just loud.)

[MEmama]

Nope. Not once in 11 years of being coached in many different sports.

 

Sounds like your daughter handled it well after she had time to process and regroup. Given the coach's flippant response, I might consider finding a new one though. Doesn't sound like he/she has much respect for their students.

Edited August 25, 2016 by MEmama

[GoodGrief]

We've done 15+ years of figure skating, so I completely understand the scenario. :-)

 

I suggest taking the lead from your child. If she wants to continue, let her continue. However, you might consider an introduction to another activity on the side; sometimes kids will want to stick with something because it's familiar and they can't think of anything else they'd rather do.

 

If there is a way to continue the activity with lower pressure (group lessons, avoiding competition, whatever), consider that track.

 

In the end, practice is essential for some activities, and it can be helpful to get called on a lack of practice by someone other than the parent. But it really depends on her and your goals for the activity. I do have some regrets for continuing in these high pressure sports (that seem to make both parents and coaches lose their perspective, lol). But I wouldn't say there was no benefit.

 

 

[MysteryJen]

Yes. Usually the child was oversensitive to criticism and she needed to get over that. Sometimes they weren't listening and the frustration from the coach was well deserved. I always watched lessons, so I knew there was no belittling or meanness. For me, it was okay if my kids were upset and it helped them listen harder, try better, and move up in skills.

 

Sent from my LG-H345 using Tapatalk

[chocolate-chip chooky]

Coaches often come from competitive backgrounds, and can find it hard to understand that some people choose a sport for enjoyment, fitness and skill development. Not everyone wants to enter competitions and have dreams of being an Olympian.

 

I'd be considering if the coach has like-minded goals as you and your daughter. A coach who can respect your reasons for doing the sport would be important to me. The same goes for things like learning an instrument or doing dance classes.

 

Competition and performance are so ingrained in many things and not everyone has this as their goal.

[Dmmetler]

Yes. DD refuses to ever again do tap due to one instructor who was too high pressure and brought her to tears repeatedly.

[Guest]

Yes. But also, I had two kids in wrestling and there are a lot of tears in that sport. It's how it is.

 

Different coaches in my kids lives over the years have tended to yell; several soccer coaches were yellers and one LAX coach was. In those cases though, we did not leave the teams; DH spoke to the coaches and encouraged them to tone down.

 

I'm sure this won't be a popular opinion, but I'm not a big believer in shielding kids from coaches who yell. Now, obviously, there's a line where it goes to abuse and that is not okay and I haven't had that experience. But I don't feel I need to protect the kids from a coach who gets upset when my kid does something idiotic and messes up. I DO like for my kids to have to face up to the ocassional instance of crticiism that isn't all puppies and snuggles.

 

On balance, I am tremendously grateful for the experiences with coaches my kids have had over years and years. It has been great for their mental and emotional development to have that input from another non-mommy adult because of course I would like to wrap them in bubble wrap and never have them be hurt for a minute. But I like for them to learn to overcome and not be demolished at the first sign they made a mistake.

[lllll]

nm

Edited August 26, 2016 by Cathi

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Yelled at? Yes. And deserved.

Cried? Maybe some moist eyes.

 

None of their coaches were ever mean or belittling.

[lovinmyboys]

None of my kids coaches have ever made them cry on purpose. One of my kids is a little hyper sensitive and he has cried.

[Guest]

Being corrected by coaches has been beneficial for DS. He has always been very sensitive to corrections. Yes, coaches have made him cry, but not from being mean. For a very long time, if you talked to him after he made a mistake, he would cry.

 

DH coached him when he was younger. He's had a couple of parents flip out on him for "yelling" at their child. On a baseball field, sometimes you have to yell for kids to hear you across the field. Once was that reason--child was in the outfield, facing away and DH yelled "Bobby, bring it in!" (Come back to the group). Another time was "Bobby, head's up!" to a kid who wasn't paying attention and was about to get donked by a ball.

 

So...yelling as in a loud voice? Yelling as in screaming at the child with mean words? How old is the child? Paid or volunteer coach? Sport? (I'm noticing football coaches yell more than baseball coaches partly because the kids can't hear them inside the helmets, but they're not being mean. Just loud.)

There was one LAX coach who was like this; he was a LOUD guy. He had a loud demeanor and was a big, very fit guy. But all the parents on our team were okay with this coach. He was loud, but not mean-spirited. I never once thought he was out of line; in fact, my son learned a LOT under his coaching. But in one game, one of the opposing team parents was very upset with our coach and his big grizzly bear voice. She made a big scene towards the end because our coach "yelled the whole game." This mom just looked foolish. ALL of our team parents defended the coach and said that is just his loudness and was not abusive or bad for the kids in any way.

[VeteranMom]

Yes.  DD went through an emotional time around 12-13.  The coach wasn't even yelling.  DD was upset over not being able to master something.  

I think what you describe depends on your dd's age.  I've had people get frustrated with my kids and it usually doesn't sit well with me.  The worst was a piano teacher who was addressing my 7 year old son.  I think the situation was more about what kind of day she was having than anything my son was doing.  He didn't respond promptly to a question she asked.  He's pretty shy and I don't think he was trying to be disrespectful.  We didn't stay much longer with that teacher.  

Are you hiring a private coach for a certain sport?  For certain sports, if you go to the trouble of hiring a private coach the coach usually thinks a kid is pretty dedicated and wants to be very good at whatever they are doing.  If your dd isn't practicing, it's probably upsetting to the coach.  I'd probably start the conversation with the coach again.  Ask what his expectations are moving forward.  If you don't think he's a good fit for your dd, it's probably best to part ways.

[Guest]

Yes. Usually the child was oversensitive to criticism and she needed to get over that. Sometimes they weren't listening and the frustration from the coach was well deserved. I always watched lessons, so I knew there was no belittling or meanness. For me, it was okay if my kids were upset and it helped them listen harder, try better, and move up in skills.

 

Sent from my LG-H345 using Tapatalk

This. Sheesh, I've made my certain kids cry at certain points, because they couldn't handle correction (especially over sloppy, lazy work that hey were cautioned would be redone if it was in that state when they turned it in). Sometimes it is inevitable, depending on the personality.

 

Some of us cry when frustrated or embarassed (including me) and sometimes the coach or parent really is out of line. Its not black and white.

 

In general the sport needs to be fun and rewarding, even if it intense. Verbal abusing or castigating, especially as a regular pattern and not just a one-off, would be something I'd absolutely intervene with directly. My child does NOT deserve to be shamed or insulted even when they're struggling or having attitude.

 

I'd observe if this is a pattern and probably talk to the coach privately if this is something unusual or reasonably explained. If it's a pattern or poor self control by the coach and not just a sensitive kid I'd pull them and probably complain higher up the chain.

[rebcoola]

Yes  coach pushes DD's to their limits and it has involved tears sometimes but they also have built a relationship of the years and know this coach loves them.   

[Hammfried]

To clarify, DD is 5yo...which bugs me because I don't want DD to have to suffer through a lesson no matter what her skill level at the age of 5. She is taking paid private lessons with Coach only (no group lessons, no competitions). They have generally done well together relationship-wise the last 1.5 years. When we signed her up, I expressly asked Coach to just go at DD's pace and have fun. We are very relaxed and happy about it. It has been fun for DD.

 

Just this week was very difficult for some reason.

 

For example:

DD was doing a move incorrectly so Coach yelled at her for doing it wrong. Coach then yelled at her for having to continually correct the same issue even though DD has done the move before. Coach demonstrated the move and asked DD to repeat. DD did the move incorrectly again. Coach yells even louder. They repeat this process again until Coach throws her arms up in the air in frustration and tells DD to just do it her own way if she "thinks she is the boss." DD looks confused, attempts to do it, incorrectly of course, and then Coach proceeds to yell at her for not listening to her in the first place. They move onto the next several elements and the same things happen each time. Coach is yelling at DD that she "is a big girl now and should already know these things." DD keeps getting up and trying but failing at doing the moves correctly. Coach yells "Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!" Coach then yelled at her to "practice the correct way, to not waste her time," and walked off leaving DD alone. Normally, she hands her off to me and reviews what she needs to work on. It broke my heart to watch.

 

Thanks for the feedback everyone. As strange as this sounds, it's comforting to know other families have had experiences with struggling under a coach (either for better or worse). There were some good points that many of you brought up. I used to do martial arts when I was younger and I had the instructor who would continually push me to do better. I think the differences are that I was much older than DD's age and also knew he never spoke from a place of malice. I welcomed his criticism as much as possible because I knew it was helping me improve. I agree that the stress can build character and resilience and don't want to impede on DD developing this fighting skill. But at the same time, I'm starting to question the Coach and if I messed up by putting her in this too soon.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Hammfried

[rainbird2]

This is terribly inappropriate for a 5 year old child. 

 

Is she doing horseback riding or something?  Maybe that would explain the yelling and persistent behavior to do things correctly...she could get injured. 

 

I would find a more low key coach for a 5 year old.  What activity is she doing?  Better yet, I would find a coach that knows how to teach a 5 year old.  Not all children learn by verbal direction.  Maybe she needs more examples and hand holding?  (I can't say, though, because I don't know what sport she is doing.)

Edited August 26, 2016 by rainbird2

[GoodGrief]

Yeah, that's just bad coaching. I'd look elsewhere for instruction for a 5 year old.

[Hammfried]

Skating. DD is in figure skating. I was hesitant to post the sport because our rink has a lot of homeschoolers and stupid as it sounds, I thought one of them would figure me out here.

 

She was not doing any dangerous moves or being disruptive. She was just skating with poor form. I admit that DD can be sensitive but ironically she usually does not cry from Coach correcting her, only from bad falls and from her own frustration of not mastering a skill right away. Coach does not allow crying on the ice. This was really the first time that she started bawling after Coach yelled. As I was tucking DD into bed earlier she asked me if we could go skating tomorrow, just the two of us. I nearly cried because I couldn't handle being at the rink anymore and here she was asking to just hang out with mom on the ice for fun.

 

I plan on talking to Coach face to face next week when we see her again to make sure we are on the same page. I just need to work up my nerve first.

[eternalsummer]

Would you allow a classroom teacher to treat your child that way?  If not (and I assume not), what makes sports different?  They are trying to teach something and for whatever reason are failing (that is why your daughter has not learned whatever it is yet) and instead of reflecting on how they can teach the skill or whatever better, they're taking out frustration on a child.

 

It's ridiculous.  We'd never put up with something like this from a classroom teacher, and classroom teachers are (generally speaking) trained to act otherwise.

 

If a teacher can't yell at my kid about math, I don't see why they can yell at her about learning a physical skill.

 

It's just that society has taught you that bad teachers yell and good coaches yell, so you (general you) have internalized that idea and without thinking about it, feel like it is okay.

[Guest]

Would you allow a classroom teacher to treat your child that way? If not (and I assume not), what makes sports different? They are trying to teach something and for whatever reason are failing (that is why your daughter has not learned whatever it is yet) and instead of reflecting on how they can teach the skill or whatever better, they're taking out frustration on a child.

 

It's ridiculous. We'd never put up with something like this from a classroom teacher, and classroom teachers are (generally speaking) trained to act otherwise.

 

If a teacher can't yell at my kid about math, I don't see why they can yell at her about learning a physical skill.

 

It's just that society has taught you that bad teachers yell and good coaches yell, so you (general you) have internalized that idea and without thinking about it, feel like it is okay.

I don't agree with your last statement because sports and academics are fundamentally different pursuits. Competition is the difference. It may be for fun and fitness too, especially at younger ages (and yes, I think 5 is too young for a yelling coach), but the point of sports and teams and competitions is to win. The point of math is not to win; it isn't to beat the kid sitting next to you. Nobody has to ice skate and not all ice skating has to be competitive. If one does not want a coach urging perfect form, don't skate competitively.

 

My DD was in gymnastics when she was very young and was recommended for pre-team. We did that for a month and I decided this was not for us. I did not need or want that level of seriousness and the all-consuming practice and the enormous expenses and the pressure for my DD, who was 5-6 years old. We dropped pre-team and returned to regular gymnastics once a week for fitness and fun. Any parent who is not after the competition can do similarly.

[abcmommy]

I don't agree with your last statement because sports and academics are fundamentally different pursuits. Competition is the difference. It may be for fun and fitness too, especially at younger ages (and yes, I think 5 is too young for a yelling coach), but the point of sports and teams and competitions is to win. The point of math is not to win; it isn't to beat the kid sitting next to you. Nobody has to ice skate and not all ice skating has to be competitive. If one does not want a coach urging perfect form, don't skate competitively.

 

 

Not the way I was reared they were not.

 

 

This is inappropriate for a 5 yo.  Period.

 

The coach's level of frustration seems unhinged given the child was clearly confused.

[Guest]

This is terribly inappropriate for a 5 year old child. 

 

Is she doing horseback riding or something?  Maybe that would explain the yelling and persistent behavior to do things correctly...she could get injured. 

 

I would find a more low key coach for a 5 year old.  What activity is she doing?  Better yet, I would find a coach that knows how to teach a 5 year old.  Not all children learn by verbal direction.  Maybe she needs more examples and hand holding?  (I can't say, though, because I don't know what sport she is doing.)

 

If someone is yelling at you while you're on horseback, I wouldn't trust them around children OR horses!!

 

OP that is really inappropriate. I don't necessarily think, as a pp does, that good kids need to be "taken down a notch" (good grief) but CERTAINLY no five year old does.

 

You know your child. If she is crying but the coach's response was perfectly reasonable and she's just feeling teary, then OK. But the coach being surly ("she doesn't listen" no sh*t sherlock, she's five) afterward suggests that this person needs to work with older people. Or no people. Or horses ;-)

[Guest]

Not the way I was reared they were not.

 

 

This is inappropriate for a 5 yo. Period.

 

The coach's level of frustration seems unhinged given the child was clearly confused.

Perhaps not how you were reared, but ideally. The goal of academics is ideally to learn, to become a knowledgeable and contributing member of society. The goal of sports is universally to win. What did we just watch on TV? Members of over a hundred nations sending representatives for sports, the most excellant examples of their sports the country has to offer. Why? To win. nobody comes on TV and says, "That swimmer from the US sure is fit and seemed to have a lot of fun!" There are no tallies of which countries had the most fun-loving participants. The goal is a gold. The records are about medals won and world records exceeded.

 

I agree that 5 years old is young for a coach yelling. However, the OP did not phrase the question that way and did not initially introduce this factor. I was thinking more of older kids when I wrote my first answer. I would not have a coach yelling at my 5 yo ice skater, no. But I also would not have a 5 yo in competitive ice skating. It's not my thing. I'm not trying to raise high-level or Olympic athletes, so it isn't worth it to me. Had the OP phrased the original question differently -"my 5 yo was yelled at to tears in skating - is this acceptable?" My answer would have been different.

 

My responses come from a standpoint of having seen parents who coddle their kids even into the teen years, wanting to cushion them from every person who would say a cross word against their baby. I understand feeling like that, but I don't think it is healthy for kids to be shielded like this as they grow.

 

ETA: grammar and typos.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Quill

[OhanaBee]

5 years old?!?!?  Oh, heck no!!

 

I have a serious dancer daughter.  There were times when she was little that she was doing a move the wrong way.  If she continued to do it that way it would have thrown her off completely.  I watched her instructors get frustrated that they couldn't communicate the proper way to hold herself.  But there was no yelling - ever - at that age.  She [and others who had the same problem] were told to stop working on that move and that they'd try again at the next lesson.  At one point one of the teachers said to the observing parents, "I need to figure out how to explain this better." 

 

Now, when this child was older, these things were more on her.  Yes, there were times her teachers yelled because she was NOT practicing as much as she should, and it was obvious.  And yes, she was in tears.  But getting yelled at on the dance floor at age 13 is very different than at age 5.

 

If this were my dd, and she wanted to continue with this coach, I'd probably be watching these practices very very closely [and it sounds like you're already doing that].  It sounds to me as if that coach maybe needs to examine his/her teaching style with your dd and learn how to take a few deep breaths before continuing on, instead of just yelling out of frustration.

[MEmama]

I seem to recall that when DS was 5 and 6, some of the kids on his hockey team would cry and fuss when the coaches made them behave and listen. They were the kids who didn't want to be there and weren't ready to be coached. Other than that, he has had all manners of coaches from lazy to task masters, but not one has been unkind or disrespectful. I'm genuinely surprised to hear that's unusual (his sports have varied in type and level of competitiveness, and have spanned 2 states and 1 Canadian province, so it can't be a regional thing).

[Bluegoat]

I think that was inappropriate, and not helpful either - it clearly did not help clear up whateer the issue was.  And 5 is too young for that kind of coaching.

 

OTOH, if this was unusual, I would tend to think maybe the coach was just frustrated about not being able to fix the problem and having a bad day.

 

Crying is really variable IMO - some people respond that way at various times and it may or may not be meaninful.  Some people forget about it right after, and others are really upset about it.

 

I think yelling is bad coaching, other than when it's a matter of being heard.  Some people do respond to more forceful language, but IME coaches or instructors who yell a lot are usually the ones who aren't very discerning about it.

[Bluegoat]

Perhaps not how you were reared, but ideally. The goal of academics is ideally to learn, to become a knowledgeable and contributing member of society. The goal of sports is universally to win. What did we just watch on TV? Members of over a hundred nations sending representatives for sports, the most excellant examples of their sports the country has to offer. Why? To win. nobody comes on TV and says, "That swimmer from the US sure is fit and seemed to have a lot of fun!" There are no tallies of which countries had the most fun-loving participants. The goal is a gold. The records are about medals won and world records exceeded.

 

I agree that 5 years old is young for a coach yelling. However, the OP did not phrase the question that way and did not initially introduce this factor. I was thinking more of older kids when I wrote my first answer. I would not have a coach yelling at my 5 yo ice skater, no. But I also would not have a 5 yo in competitive ice skating. It's not my thing. I'm not trying to raise high-level or Olympic athletes, so it isn't worth it to me. Had the OP phrased the original question differently -"my 5 yo was yelled at to tears in skating - is this acceptable?" My answer would have been different.

 

My responses come from a standpoint of having seen parents who coddle their kids even into the teen years, wanting to cushion them from every person who would say a cross word against their baby. I understand feeling like that, but I don't think it is healthy for kids to be shielded like this as they grow.

 

ETA: grammar and typos.

 

I think winning is only a secondary goal in sports.  It's a fiction that the participants enter into - it has no meaning outside the game.

 

But the primary goal is not to win - it may be to have fun, see how far you can push your performance, get exercise, make money, entertain others, whatever.

 

The level of commitment to winning will depend on the situation, but when it is over-emphasized at the primary goal, that's when you get injuries, people being ass-hats, people refusing to participate unless they can win or refusing to play on teams with average or poor players, and especially, cheating.

[TranquilMind]

Five years old? No way. I'd get out.

 

Mine have never cried. Of course, big hockey players are not known for their tears. Lots of yelling from coaches, but no tears.

Edited August 26, 2016 by TranquilMind

[Guest]

Five?  Absolutely not.

 

My "taken down a notch" comment, by the way, was in reference to a situation with my own child.  She's a good kid, and a hard worker, BUT she makes excuses, and can't see that she's doing anything wrong.  One day, her coach benched her for not playing her position, and, she, as usual, wanted to explain why it just wasn't her fault.  He wouldn't listen for a second, and she got her feelings pretty hurt.  It was a big moment of humility for her, and a good one.  I'm not sure what you thought I meant, but berating and yelling were never on my mind with that statement.  

 

Yelling was the topic of the OP. "Correction" and "taking down a notch" don't make the same connotations spring to mind, you see?

 

Sorry for the miscommunication.

[Guest]

I think winning is only a secondary goal in sports. It's a fiction that the participants enter into - it has no meaning outside the game.

 

But the primary goal is not to win - it may be to have fun, see how far you can push your performance, get exercise, make money, entertain others, whatever.

 

The level of commitment to winning will depend on the situation, but when it is over-emphasized at the primary goal, that's when you get injuries, people being ass-hats, people refusing to participate unless they can win or refusing to play on teams with average or poor players, and especially, cheating.

*shrug* I disagree. Sports began as a competition. Who runs fastest? Throws the farthest? Jumps the highest? Who has the fastest horse? Strongest horse? Who can balance the most impressively? Pin an opponent to a mat the fastest? Who dominates? Who is the best at this task? If it's just to have fun and be fit, you can do Zumba for that, or run around the yard or swim for fun.

 

The first intention of sports is to be superior to the other competitors. Reiterating this so the message is not missed: Yes, I think 5 is too young for a yelling coach. However, sports in general ARE about competition. The primary purpose of sports is to be superior in some physical way to others attempting the same physical task. To win. It is also fun and great exercise and can teach you all sorts of wonderful life skills: persistence, fortitude, graciousness, humility, comraderie, respect. But the primary purpose of sports is to be better than others at a given task and to prove that by winning.

[The Governess]

We've been in this situation. I have decided, for my kids, that I will not allow them to be coached or taught by someone who cannot treat them with respect. Yelling doesn't bother me as long as the coach is being constructive. I have removed my kids from situations where a frustrated coach was shaming them.

 

My thinking is this: if my kid is conditioned to being spoken to in such a way by an abusive coach and believes it is normal, it will not trigger alarms when a friend, boyfriend, boss, or spouse treats her the same way in the future.

[Bluegoat]

*shrug* I disagree. Sports began as a competition. Who runs fastest? Throws the farthest? Jumps the highest? Who has the fastest horse? Strongest horse? Who can balance the most impressively? Pin an opponent to a mat the fastest? Who dominates? Who is the best at this task? If it's just to have fun and be fit, you can do Zumba for that, or run around the yard or swim for fun.

 

The first intention of sports is to be superior to the other competitors. Reiterating this so the message is not missed: Yes, I think 5 is too young for a yelling coach. However, sports in general ARE about competition. The primary purpose of sports is to be superior in some physical way to others attempting the same physical task. To win. It is also fun and great exercise and can teach you all sorts of wonderful life skills: persistence, fortitude, graciousness, humility, comraderie, respect. But the primary purpose of sports is to be better than others at a given task and to prove that by winning.

 

A competition with no meaning outside the rules agreed by the participants.  If there is meaning outside that, it isn't sport any more.  (This is why professional atheletes used to be not allowed in teh Olympics, as it happens, in a sense, a professional sport isn't a sport at all, it is a job.)

 

If the primary purpose was simply to win, there would be no reason to play unless one was reasonably sure of winning a significant part of the time.

 

But why do the participants enter into the competition which has no meaning, where does the meaning come from?  It comes from some other set of purposes.

[Dmmetler]

Would you allow a classroom teacher to treat your child that way? If not (and I assume not), what makes sports different? They are trying to teach something and for whatever reason are failing (that is why your daughter has not learned whatever it is yet) and instead of reflecting on how they can teach the skill or whatever better, they're taking out frustration on a child.

 

It's ridiculous. We'd never put up with something like this from a classroom teacher, and classroom teachers are (generally speaking) trained to act otherwise.

 

If a teacher can't yell at my kid about math, I don't see why they can yell at her about learning a physical skill.

 

It's just that society has taught you that bad teachers yell and good coaches yell, so you (general you) have internalized that idea and without thinking about it, feel like it is okay.

One difference is the physical room and group size. My DD's cheer coaches have yelled a lot more than tumbling coaches-and it's because cheer coaches usually are in a gym with multiple teams on the floor, some practicing with music or practicing chants and 20+ kids out there. If they didn't yell, they wouldn't be heard. We're also talking a sport where part of what you're scored on is doing chants that are audible in a gym with a sporting event going on, so most cheer coaches have spent years learning to project, and tend to be in the "let the back row of the stadium hear you" mode the second they step into the gym anyway. Tumbling coaches usually only have 4-6 kids at a time, and normally are working with one while the others practice (so, for example, the group will do cartwheels up and down the lines on the mat, and the coach will evaluate and make corrections on one kid at a time). They don't need to yell, and don't.

 

DD has never had a problem with loud cheer coaches, but she had a real problem with the critical dance teacher who would give corrections in a loud voice, and I think the big difference was that in a dance class of 8 kids, a loud dance teacher making corrections felt personal in the way the cheer coach yelling didn't. Cheer corrections also are usually made as a whole group, or at least as a stunt group, rarely to a single player in front of the whole team.

[Julie Smith]

Perhaps not how you were reared, but ideally. The goal of academics is ideally to learn, to become a knowledgeable and contributing member of society. The goal of sports is universally to win. What did we just watch on TV? Members of over a hundred nations sending representatives for sports, the most excellant examples of their sports the country has to offer. Why? To win. nobody comes on TV and says, "That swimmer from the US sure is fit and seemed to have a lot of fun!" There are no tallies of which countries had the most fun-loving participants. The goal is a gold. The records are about medals won and world records exceeded.

 

 

For academics sometimes the goal is to win. Spelling bees for example.

Sometimes it is just to get a piece of paper. 

 

For some people, the goal of sports is to win. For others it might be something different. I dance tap and west coast because it is fun. One of my dance instructors competes, another has no interest competing. Eldest runs because it is fun and makes him feel good. He doesn't even like to go to races. Dh does sports because it helps with weight control. 

 

I don't watch the Olympics, and I can't be the only one. I don't care who won. I have sometime watched a few minutes of gymnastics or diving to see the neatness of the moves. 

 

Mind you, for me the purpose of board games is to analyze them and figure out how to win, then to utterly crush your opponents. :) My Dh and my boys on the other hand like cooperative games. I have tired several of them, and I just don't get it.

 

We all have different reasons for doing the things we do. I think it is wrong to assume that others have the same reasons as you do. 

[Corraleno]

Perhaps not how you were reared, but ideally. The goal of academics is ideally to learn, to become a knowledgeable and contributing member of society. The goal of sports is universally to win. What did we just watch on TV? Members of over a hundred nations sending representatives for sports, the most excellant examples of their sports the country has to offer. Why? To win. nobody comes on TV and says, "That swimmer from the US sure is fit and seemed to have a lot of fun!" There are no tallies of which countries had the most fun-loving participants. The goal is a gold. The records are about medals won and world records exceeded.

 

 The vast majority of the 11,000+ athletes who competed in Rio had little to no chance of winning — should they have just stayed home? The fact that media coverage tends to focus on the medalists doesn't mean there weren't thousands of athletes in Rio whose primary goal was to participate and enjoy themselves and perform well, even if they had no chance of a medal. (And some of those did get media coverage, because they had compelling stories that had more to do with grit and determination than medals.)

 

Tons of people who enjoy participating in sports have no interest in competition. DD takes gymnastics classes, and both kids used to take TKD and rock climbing classes, all purely for fun. And even among people who do compete, many are mostly competing against themselves — to do their best, improve their performance, meet personal goals, etc. My son is a national medalist, who'll be competing internationally for the first time next month. Of course he loves to win, but he would much rather lose 15-13 to a really top competitor, knowing he fenced to the best of his ability, than beat a much lower ranked fencer. 

 

I think sports and academics are a lot more alike than they are different — some people love learning/sport for it's own sake, some people just want to do their personal best, some people are motivated by external awards, and some people care more about winning, at any cost (including athletic and academic cheating) than they care about genuinely doing their best. IMO a coach's job is the same as a teacher's — to motivate, guide, and teach the student. Unless a coach or teacher actually needs to raise his or her voice in order to be heard in a noisy environment, I don't think there's ever a need to yell at students, let alone humiliate them. A good coach/teacher should be able to motivate and correct students without yelling.

[rebcoola]

I would not be okay with what you described while our coaches have gotten stern and even yelled it was just not like that.

[GoodGrief]

Skating. DD is in figure skating. I was hesitant to post the sport because our rink has a lot of homeschoolers and stupid as it sounds, I thought one of them would figure me out here.

 

 

 

I had a feeling that was it :-)

 

As I said previously, we have spent over 15 years in the sport. That kind of coaching behavior in skating is not terribly uncommon, to be honest. But it doesn't make it healthy or appropriate. I do have some regrets about some of the situations my young children experienced in skating, and some of the things we tolerated as a family.

 

[MysteryJen]

Five is a little young for a serious coach, imo. But I do think that yelling can have a place in good coaching. I remember talking to our former swim coach who had come from his hs girls team practice. He looked tired and I asked how his day went. He said that his team was sniping at each other and not bonding, so he got them out of the water and yelled at all of them. He said, by the time they walked out of the locker room, they had bonded with each other, against him. I do think that strategic yelling, especially with teens can do some good.

[Guest]

For academics sometimes the goal is to win. Spelling bees for example.

Sometimes it is just to get a piece of paper.

 

For some people, the goal of sports is to win. For others it might be something different. I dance tap and west coast because it is fun. One of my dance instructors competes, another has no interest competing. Eldest runs because it is fun and makes him feel good. He doesn't even like to go to races. Dh does sports because it helps with weight control.

 

I don't watch the Olympics, and I can't be the only one. I don't care who won. I have sometime watched a few minutes of gymnastics or diving to see the neatness of the moves.

 

Mind you, for me the purpose of board games is to analyze them and figure out how to win, then to utterly crush your opponents. :) My Dh and my boys on the other hand like cooperative games. I have tired several of them, and I just don't get it.

We all have different reasons for doing the things we do. I think it is wrong to assume that others have the same reasons as you do.

I am not assuming everyone else has MY reasons. I was disagreeing with Blue goat that winning was a secondary goal of sports, not a primary. I am speaking historically, as well as what is expected from athletes as they increase in level of play. Also if people are paying you to do your sport, the goal is to win.

 

Sure, at 5 years old, it isn't usually fiercly competitive in any sport. But by the time a kid is, say, 14? Coaches are not going to smile and wave as a clueless athlete bumbles around "having fun". My son has a big tournemant this weekend and, while it would be great if he has fun, he plans to win. He plans to win as a team and he plans to play well enough individually to make an impression on the coach because he wants to be on Varsity. He isn't going to be on Varsity if he shows up aiming to have fun. Some aspects are probably going to be very un-fun because it will probably be 98 degrees and they will play games all day long if they win the first brackets.

[Bluegoat]

 The vast majority of the 11,000+ athletes who competed in Rio had little to no chance of winning — should they have just stayed home? The fact that media coverage tends to focus on the medalists doesn't mean there weren't thousands of athletes in Rio whose primary goal was to participate and enjoy themselves and perform well, even if they had no chance of a medal. (And some of those did get media coverage, because they had compelling stories that had more to do with grit and determination than medals.)

 

Tons of people who enjoy participating in sports have no interest in competition. DD takes gymnastics classes, and both kids used to take TKD and rock climbing classes, all purely for fun. And even among people who do compete, many are mostly competing against themselves — to do their best, improve their performance, meet personal goals, etc. My son is a national medalist, who'll be competing internationally for the first time next month. Of course he loves to win, but he would much rather lose 15-13 to a really top competitor, knowing he fenced to the best of his ability, than beat a much lower ranked fencer. 

 

I think sports and academics are a lot more alike than they are different — some people love learning/sport for it's own sake, some people just want to do their personal best, some people are motivated by external awards, and some people care more about winning, at any cost (including athletic and academic cheating) than they care about genuinely doing their best. IMO a coach's job is the same as a teacher's — to motivate, guide, and teach the student. Unless a coach or teacher actually needs to raise his or her voice in order to be heard in a noisy environment, I don't think there's ever a need to yell at students, let alone humiliate them. A good coach/teacher should be able to motivate and correct students without yelling.

 

This is what really bothers me about the Olympics - the focus on the winners and winning makes all the rhetoric about the comradiery of competition, the way it shows all competitors to be part of the human family who can game together - look totally and completely bogus.

 

A few years ago we did poorly in medals - people started talking about whether we should bother seding people or cut funding to sports, because obviously if we don't win, it isn't worth it.

 

So yeah, it seems very much like those kind of people think all those who come from little countries that can't afford big training programs just shouldn't bother. 

 

It's quite different to say the goal of the sport is to try to win, rather than to win.  The former is a matter of participating in the competition for the sake of enaging in this very human activity with no ulterior motive (of course the Olympics has ruined that as well, but ideally.)   The latter says you should do whatever you can in order to win, and not play at all if you aren't likely to.

[Guest]

Well the age and sport make a difference, I think most of us were thinking older kids.

 

At five I'd tell coach to chill big time. Yes, form is crucial, especially for building good foundation technique in her skating. But quite frankly the coach would do better to instruct very specifically and move around body parts as needed to demonstrate what is lacking, even if it is review. Kiddo also needs to put in the practice time the coach expects and mom may need to watch form very closely during that time to help with good habits. We do the same with piano and as annoying as it is it pays dividends later on in making it more fun and easier, with less chance of injury.

 

Is this edge work? Spins? Basic body alignment during stroking?

 

In a one on one session with a kid that young a firm coach is great, but yours is crossing that line into bad coaching and with no good reason. Clearly more practice and explanation is needed if she is confused instead of just throwing a tantrum and refusing to comply and if the instructor can't recognize the difference that's a big red flag.

[Bluegoat]

Another way to put it, is that while to play the game one tries to win, no one would play just for that.

 

I have no interest in golf.  I do not think it is fun, I do not get paid for it, I don't have to play it for job or school, I don't crave fame or approval for it.  So - winning at golf is not something that I would ever want to do.

 

People who play golf choose to enter into the competition not because they think winning it objectively important.  they enter into that fiction because they enjoy the game, or the competition, or the money, or because they get something else out of it. 

 

 

[Guest]

A competition with no meaning outside the rules agreed by the participants. If there is meaning outside that, it isn't sport any more. (This is why professional atheletes used to be not allowed in teh Olympics, as it happens, in a sense, a professional sport isn't a sport at all, it is a job.)

 

If the primary purpose was simply to win, there would be no reason to play unless one was reasonably sure of winning a significant part of the time.

 

But why do the participants enter into the competition which has no meaning, where does the meaning come from? It comes from some other set of purposes.

I don't understand your first sentence.

 

By "win," I mean more things than just winning the top honor or the gold medal. But the point is still competition and proving that you can do this feat better than most others, even if not better than everyone else in the world. So, for example, it is a tremendous honor just to qualify to compete in the Olympics. You have already won hundreds of competitions, maybe thousands, to get there. If you qualify to compete in the Olympics, of course you're going to go, even if you have no chance of winning the top honor. But an Olympic athlete did not get there by being blasé about winning.

 

I disagree that sports have no meaning outside of the rules prescribed for that sport. Many sports have a very simple and obvious meaning. Running a short sprint: which of us can run in the fastest burst of speed? Running a Marathon: which of us can sustain running continuously for 26 miles? Other sports do have arbitrary rules that have no meaning of their own, but since all the players are agreeing to those rules, the competition is still about who can do these things best within this framework. In soccer: who can get the ball to the opposing goal using only feet and make way through the defenders and goalie? Which team can do this the most times in an hour and twenty minutes?

 

Why do participants enter competitions with no inherant meaning? Because they want to be the best at that thing. Why do people do hot dog eating contests, for example? It doesn't even "prove" anything useful. But people want to win, so they do it.

[fairfarmhand]

I teach a drama class and I yell all the time. I stand in the back of the auditorium and yell at people to speak up, turn around, or stop mumbling. The new kids are a little disconcerted at first, especially those who have parents who are quieter in spirit and style, but they quickly learn that I am not angry, just loud. I am never belittling, and if I do get frustrated, I NEVER yell to correct major problems.

 

When I have a frustration, I pull the kid aside and quietly discuss my frustrations.

 

I don't yell. I project. :)

 

Some people believe that a parent or teacher should never raise their voice or speak firmly. I don't. I'm a loud person, especially when I'm teaching because I model what I want my students to do.

 

But I don't think that this type of situation is what you were dealing with.

Edited August 26, 2016 by fairfarmhand

[Corraleno]

Why do participants enter competitions with no inherant meaning? Because they want to be the best at that thing. Why do people do hot dog eating contests, for example? It doesn't even "prove" anything useful. But people want to win, so they do it.

 

There's a big difference between wanting to "do your best" and wanting to "be the best" — i.e. better than everyone else. Many people compete against themselves, and are quite happy to come last as long as they did their best. And many more are happy to participate in sports for fun, comradery, recreation, health benefits, etc., and have no interest in competing. 

[zoobie]

To clarify, DD is 5yo...which bugs me because I don't want DD to have to suffer through a lesson no matter what her skill level at the age of 5. She is taking paid private lessons with Coach only (no group lessons, no competitions). They have generally done well together relationship-wise the last 1.5 years. When we signed her up, I expressly asked Coach to just go at DD's pace and have fun. We are very relaxed and happy about it. It has been fun for DD.

 

Just this week was very difficult for some reason.

 

For example:

DD was doing a move incorrectly so Coach yelled at her for doing it wrong. Coach then yelled at her for having to continually correct the same issue even though DD has done the move before. Coach demonstrated the move and asked DD to repeat. DD did the move incorrectly again. Coach yells even louder. They repeat this process again until Coach throws her arms up in the air in frustration and tells DD to just do it her own way if she "thinks she is the boss." DD looks confused, attempts to do it, incorrectly of course, and then Coach proceeds to yell at her for not listening to her in the first place. They move onto the next several elements and the same things happen each time. Coach is yelling at DD that she "is a big girl now and should already know these things." DD keeps getting up and trying but failing at doing the moves correctly. Coach yells "Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!" Coach then yelled at her to "practice the correct way, to not waste her time," and walked off leaving DD alone. Normally, she hands her off to me and reviews what she needs to work on. It broke my heart to watch.

 

Thanks for the feedback everyone. As strange as this sounds, it's comforting to know other families have had experiences with struggling under a coach (either for better or worse). There were some good points that many of you brought up. I used to do martial arts when I was younger and I had the instructor who would continually push me to do better. I think the differences are that I was much older than DD's age and also knew he never spoke from a place of malice. I welcomed his criticism as much as possible because I knew it was helping me improve. I agree that the stress can build character and resilience and don't want to impede on DD developing this fighting skill. But at the same time, I'm starting to question the Coach and if I messed up by putting her in this too soon.

 

That sounds very unproductive for a 5 year old! I definitely would have a chat with the coach, and if that's his/her usual teaching method, I would look for another coach. The fact that **you** are anxious about talking to the coach is concerning as well.

 

 

Would you allow a classroom teacher to treat your child that way?  If not (and I assume not), what makes sports different?  They are trying to teach something and for whatever reason are failing (that is why your daughter has not learned whatever it is yet) and instead of reflecting on how they can teach the skill or whatever better, they're taking out frustration on a child.

 

It's ridiculous.  We'd never put up with something like this from a classroom teacher, and classroom teachers are (generally speaking) trained to act otherwise.

 

If a teacher can't yell at my kid about math, I don't see why they can yell at her about learning a physical skill.

 

It's just that society has taught you that bad teachers yell and good coaches yell, so you (general you) have internalized that idea and without thinking about it, feel like it is okay.

 

Academics and sports are different. What the OP's coach did is not appropriate coaching. Sports coaches do yell. Kids all over a field, in noisy situations, in helmets--they have to yell to be heard. I can't imagine a math teacher yelling, "Give me 5 more proofs! Come on kid, hustle! You can do it!" There's encouraging, constructive, motivational yelling and there's insulting yelling. My anxious kid might occasionally cry (and is no less of an athlete for it, eyeroll at that suggestion from another poster) at a correction even if it's whispered in a calm voice. That actually might make him cry more.