Struggling with Reading Comprehension

[shinyhappypeople]

11 yo DD is very bright and can decode quite well. However, I've recently discovered she really struggles with reading AND listening comprehension (e.g. listening to read-alouds ).  

 

At the end of 4th grade (she's newly 6th now) I had her do the DORA assessment just out of curiosity and she maxed out the phonics section as well as the word recognition (12th grade).  However her comprehension was at 5th? grade maybe (can't remember, and I  can't find the assessment).  It was a LOT lower than her word recognition.  Maybe that should have been my first clue  :confused:

 

She's a natural speller and a gifted writer.  Grammar is pretty easy for her.   She is able to read and understand her science book (A Beka, gr 6), which has lots of photos and illustrations, somewhat better than just pages of text.  Also, she has no problem understanding the fifty-billion Warrior Cats books she's read which aren't illustrated but are extremely high interest to her.  Read alouds are tricky, because unless she's looking at the text while I'm reading she keeps losing track of what's being said. 

 

I'm not sure what to do.

 

Would a formal reading curriculum help with this?  I was looking at BJU Reading or McGraw Hill Treasures.  Do they explicitly teach strategies for reading comprehension?

 

Any other ideas? Could this be ADD (she struggles to focus, which would make comprehension difficult)?

 

 

[tm919]

Short answer: My opinion is: (1) Evan moore daily reading comprehension is actually pretty good and doesn't take a lot of time. (2) DORA reading comprehension scores seem highly influenced by their background knowledge.

 

Long answer: Just on the test.... My experience, with my daughters (younger than yours but it probably still applies) is that they maxed out word recognition the very first time at age 4.5, but scored less than 2nd grade in comprehension! A few things to consider:

 

1. DORA does not let them see the passage while answering the question. If they aren't used to this -- particularly if they tend to go back after looking at the question to scan the text (which is actually a good strategy in other situations) -- it can be about memory. I think just reminding them — they won't see the passage again before taking the text — makes a difference.

 

2. It's nonfiction and the topics have to do with things they are likely to have touched by a particular age in public school -- so the questions/scoring are keyed as if they already knew the topic. So for instance, even t hough my daughter reads fiction to maybe 8th grade level regularly, this year she got a 5.5 in comprehension -- we just haven't covered the late middle school/ high school content stuff in enough detail for her to have background in it.

 

I did evan moore daily comprehension and it does help (particularly giving them alternative strategies for reading comprehension) BUT I feel like DORA's use of nonfiction tends to create a weird ceiling/floor for kids who would normally read at a higher level. Totally as a rough guesstimate, they can probably score about +3 years above their CONTENT level if their actual skill is good, or about  -3 years below their CONTENT level if their actual skill is poor, but the further they get above their content level the harder the content is relative to their reading comprehension because background/context for the subject is assumed (hope that made sense). 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2016 by tm919

[OneStepAtATime]

Are you saying that she mainly is not seeming to comprehend well when it is auditory based input?  If that is the case, you might get her evaluated for CAPD through an audiologist.

 

Also, I would not make assumptions based on one test.  I would want to try other ways of assessing her.  Maybe that is just not an ideal test for your child.

 

FWIW, I do pretty poorly with only auditory input.  I do not do well with audio books unless I already know the context or it is narrative that is easy to follow (not a lot of twists and unexpected turns).  I do FAR better if I can see the print.  If I can see AND hear, then comprehension goes up even more.  I hate it when someone reads me content information and expects me to remember it.  I need to see the words.  I need to see the printed words to be able to absorb the information effectively.  Perhaps your child is the same?

[shinyhappypeople]

Thanks.  I should clarify.  We did the DORA, but that's not what sparked my concern.  She still scored slightly above grade level, so I wasn't too worried.  I was including that info for background info.

 

Outside of reading, she seems to understand verbal instructions, so I'm not sure if it's an auditory processing thing, but I'll keep that in my back pocket for now.

 

I think I'm just now noticing because she's very strong in every other LA area, and I've always let her choose her own reading materials, and, honestly,  I just didn't notice because I've been so consumed with her older sister's very significant LDs and cognitive glitches (who, by the way, has outstanding reading and listening comprehension.  Noticing that she is ahead of her baby sister in an academic area is an enormous confidence booster for her :) )  OH dang, now I'm totally regretting posting this on General instead of Learning Challenges.  If you're tempted to dogpile on me for being a human parent, don't go there.  Just don't.  

[shinyhappypeople]

Are you saying that she mainly is not seeming to comprehend well when it is auditory based input?  If that is the case, you might get her evaluated for CAPD through an audiologist.

 

Also, I would not make assumptions based on one test.  I would want to try other ways of assessing her.  Maybe that is just not an ideal test for your child.

 

FWIW, I do pretty poorly with only auditory input.  I do not do well with audio books unless I already know the context or it is narrative that is easy to follow (not a lot of twists and unexpected turns).  I do FAR better if I can see the print.  If I can see AND hear, then comprehension goes up even more.  I hate it when someone reads me content information and expects me to remember it.  I need to see the words.  I need to see the printed words to be able to absorb the information effectively.  Perhaps your child is the same?

 

It's both reading AND auditory.  She does a little bit better with reading, but honestly not a lot.

[MistyMountain]

That reminds me of my dd. She does have inactive ADHD and I think that contributed. She is good at decoding, a natural speller and good at writing and grammar but she especially has difficulty with listening comprehension and reading comprehension too. She can describe high interest things but otherwise does have some struggles with comprehension. I did Reading Decective this summer and it took to nearly the end to start noticing a difference but she is finally improving but it is more strategies for answering questions. We listen to audiobooks a lot in the car. It used to be background noise to her and hard to follow but she gotten better over time from exposure. I also have one that struggles in other ways but is outstanding at listening and comprehending.

Edited August 25, 2016 by MistyMountain

[OneStepAtATime]

That can be tricky to tweak out.  FWIW, I don't think anyone is going to "dogpile" you.  Parenting is tricky and tweaking out all that is going on with our kids can be trickier.  Add in more than one kid and things are compounded exponentially at times.  No worries.  And hugs.  

 

We did do some of Reading Detective here and may return to it at some point.  DS did benefit from it but many of the stories were boring to him so he got irritated.  

[luuknam]

I'm not really sure what exactly is causing you to be concerned now? Is she struggling with the reading required for 6th grade? Or is it just the gap between her reading comprehension and other LA skills? If the latter, reading comprehension is dependent on background knowledge and life experience, so it's probably not that weird for a kid to have lower reading comprehension than other reading skills (for instance, I tested my youngest's decoding skill just after he turned 5yo, and he scored at the 5th grade level. He's 5.75yo now, and comprehension-wise is at about a 2nd grade level - and I'm not going to be concerned about the gap because he just doesn't have the background knowledge and life experience to comprehend at a 5th+ grade level - I'd only become concerned if he were ahead in *everything* (not just LA) except reading comprehension).

 

FWIW, I think that ADD (or other problems, e.g. ASDs) could cause reading comprehension to be lower. Are there specific kinds of questions that she struggles with, reading comprehension-wise? For example, does she have trouble summarizing a text, finding the main idea, describing how the text is organized, what the purpose of the author is, etc? For example, there's a website (Newsela) I'm using that has free news articles adapted for various reading levels, with comprehension questions to go with them, and the questions say what kind of question they are, so if I were concerned I could look to see if my kid was getting specific kinds of questions wrong more often than others.

[shinyhappypeople]

I'm not really sure what exactly is causing you to be concerned now? Is she struggling with the reading required for 6th grade? Or is it just the gap between her reading comprehension and other LA skills? If the latter, reading comprehension is dependent on background knowledge and life experience, so it's probably not that weird for a kid to have lower reading comprehension than other reading skills (for instance, I tested my youngest's decoding skill just after he turned 5yo, and he scored at the 5th grade level. He's 5.75yo now, and comprehension-wise is at about a 2nd grade level - and I'm not going to be concerned about the gap because he just doesn't have the background knowledge and life experience to comprehend at a 5th+ grade level - I'd only become concerned if he were ahead in *everything* (not just LA) except reading comprehension).

 

She's struggling with the reading required for 6th grade (glazed expression, tears, "I don't understand this at all!), and if she hears a book read aloud she becomes lost very quickly. 

 

FWIW, I think that ADD (or other problems, e.g. ASDs) could cause reading comprehension to be lower. Are there specific kinds of questions that she struggles with, reading comprehension-wise? For example, does she have trouble summarizing a text, finding the main idea, describing how the text is organized, what the purpose of the author is, etc? For example, there's a website (Newsela) I'm using that has free news articles adapted for various reading levels, with comprehension questions to go with them, and the questions say what kind of question they are, so if I were concerned I could look to see if my kid was getting specific kinds of questions wrong more often than others.

 

Yes, all of those.  She can't repeat back anything specific about what she read, except maybe a few super general comments (reading or hearing a passage about Van Gogh might yield, "He was a guy who painted."  If we're lucky something about France might be added.  Maybe.)  As I write this, it occurs to me that emphasizing CM-style narration would probably be extremely helpful to her. 

 

I think for a long time her learning has been so automatic and almost by osmosis (especially in the language arts), that I have overlooked the fact that there is one area where she might need direct, focused instruction.

 

Has anyone used McGraw Hill's Treasures program?  It might pair well with narration. 

Edited August 26, 2016 by shinyhappypeople

[luuknam]

Another thought that just occurred to me is hormones. My kids aren't that age yet (and they're not girls), but I think I've seen people say that their kids became stupid for a while when hormones were at their worst.

 

What happens if you give her similar 5th grade texts?

 

I've used a textbook by a major publisher like that before when I got it used at a thrift store - I don't remember which one it was - I could look it up, but it was a 2nd grade text when my oldest was in ps 1st or 2nd grade, so probably not very useful.

[SarahW]

Just sharing my btdt - 

 

Crazypants is bright and likely ADHD, and has really struggled with reading comp. Which drives me crazy, because it means he doesn't like to read much, so he isn't able to follow his interests as much, and leaves me scrambling to find curriculum that matches his level of conceptual understanding but not beyond his reading understanding.

 

The main problem for him (I think) is that he was skipping Key Words. The little words which organize the sentences together in a paragraph. For example, we were reading a passage about river otters and the first few sentences were about how they were hunted for food and skins, and also for sport. Then there was a sentence beginning "Despite this" and went on to say that the otter population dropped after the introduction of pesticides (and the chemical runoff in rivers). For the question "What caused otters to become endangered?" he answered "overhunting." "Overhunting" is not a bad answer, it is why many animals have low population levels, he knows that, but it is not the correct answer. I went through the three dangers otters face with him, hunting, sport, pesticides, and asked him to find which one specifically led to them being endangered. He didn't see it. Finally, I circled the words "despite this" in the paragraph and asked him to organize the information as it relates to that, and he was lost. He didn't know what "despite this" meant, and he didn't see how it controlled the information in the paragraph. As a result, he understood the passage to be just a history of dangers to otters, not information about what caused the animal to begin to be endangered. And yes, his misunderstanding would also cause him to be unable to narrate/summarize the passage, and he would give a crap answer like "It's about otters."

 

I have been using Reading and Reasoning with him, and it has been really helpful in breaking down the types of sentences with their Key Words. The Beginning level was maybe too easy for him, but I didn't want to frustrate him. I'm hoping the higher levels will get further into words like "although" "because" "resulting" "despite" and etc. [if it doesn't, I'm open to suggestions!].

 

Reading comprehension questions shouldn't rely on background knowledge. I mean, yeah, it's great if the student isn't stuck wondering "River otter? What's a river otter!" but the questions should be independent of that. I know there's a bunch of crappy "reading comp" worksheets floating around which ask information not given in the passage, I ruthlessly ignore them or cross out the stupid questions.

 

It may be an ADHD-ish thing, not seeing details, making too many connections with existing knowledge. I have to constantly lead him back with questions about what, specifically, THIS text is saying. What is the point HERE, before we go thinking there.

 

I've never used the Treasures program. I did use some EM reading books in 1st/2nd - the Fables book I think it was, and a few other things. It was okay. But I don't think it taught him exactly what he needed. R&R is much more specific, and it's harder for him to fudge through it.

 

Figuring out where, specifically, the trouble is is tough. I know. You could use any (not crappy) reading comp program and pay close attention to the types of questions she struggles with. Be super strict in your evaluation so you're not fooled by a fudged-sorta-answer. The area of weakness should surface. Then you can target it.

[PeterPan]

I don't see any scores there that are below grade level.  It sounds like it's the ADHD.  She's not actually having low comprehension of material, just not engaging with the material, not attending.  You have a variety of options.  Personally, I wouldn't put her in a reading curriculum if she's reading with pleasure above grade level.  You're likely to affect how she enjoys the material and aren't hitting her weak points.  If it's showing up in science reading, then I would consider whether it's a long-term, essential skill for her to learn how to turn that on and attend.  Honestly, some texts (history, science, etc.) just are really ill-written!  Some ARE boring as sin! 

 

So is it ESSENTIAL for her to learn how to suck it up through a boring as sin text, or is that a non-essential skill for her?  There are some people who say it is essential and you're doing them wrong if you don't.  Fine, whatever, that's their business.  I decided it wasn't essential for my very bright, very ADHD dd.  And somebody can say they chose differently, but I'm saying what I chose.  I give her things that I know will engage her, that work with her brightness and the way she finds that subject interesting.  I'm not saying you *have* to do that, but it's a choice.  

 

If you don't do that, then yes I would pick very structured, clear materials.  I would use them in a motivating way with plenty of structure, engagement and accountability, like say an online class, a co-op class, etc.  It's not going to be a strongpoint for her, so it's going to need some pizzazz to keep it going forward.  My dd has found she's actually really good with the structure of a class like that. She thrives on some competition. But the image you get online of kids just slogging through books alone, that's not so much her.  She needs more structure, more reason, more pizzazz.  Once she picked up the cluephone, then she started being able to do it some on her own.

 

Really, there's a sense in which the ADHD brain is actually grad school, not undergrad, not high school.  Like when you look at how history is taught in grad school and in chi-chi colleges, it will be topics, engagements, lots of whys, lots of connections.  THAT is how my dd thinks!!  But when you look at a high school text, they're asking for who, what, where, when.  Might be some whys and some connections, but it's this encyclopedic, shallow survey.  And we can say that's valuable, but if the METHOD is contributing to the inattention, then at some point it's ok to question the method, kwim?  My dd is intending to minor in history (if she gets accepted where she's applying!) and she's really psyched that their program is what I'm describing, very in-depth on particular topics.  That whole sequence of freshman history of civ, sophomores doing a year of american, poof, out.  It's all topics and depth, lots of whys, lots of connections.  That's where she's strong!  

 

I think you can decide how important certain skills are to you, how they need to play out for her to be prepared to do what she's going to need to do.  My kid is not going to do EVERYTHING.  There ARE kids who seem to do EVERYTHING.  My kid isn't.  She's going to do a few things in-depth and well.  She just is who she is.  So if you sort of inventory your dc and find strengths you want to nurture, it might make you say ok then some other things aren't as important and will get de-emphasized.  Even though my dd isn't dyslexic, the book Dyslexic Advantage was immeasurably helpful to me in realizing my dd's STRENGTHS and how I could work with them.  Highly recommend.

Edited August 26, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

No Mind Left Behind

 

Reading comprehension is 80% prior knowledge.  It's all about connections and making connections.  If they aren't attending, they aren't making connections.

[SarahW]

No Mind Left Behind

 

Reading comprehension is 80% prior knowledge.  It's all about connections and making connections.  If they aren't attending, they aren't making connections.

 

 

:confused:

 

If the student does not understand what the text says, they will never get to the point of making connections. Yeah, maybe they'll try anyways, but it will not be accurate.

 

Making connections is synthesizing. That's the step beyond comprehension of the text itself.

 

 

I've spent too many years in Grad school. Textual comprehension is critical, especially in the humanities. In many of my classes the Prof demanded weekly text-response papers, in which we could ONLY talk about the text itself. Many of us found this challenging, as we were so used to fudging through with "oh, this point makes me think about topic X (isn't it so impressive that I know about topic X?)." Nope, that doesn't cut it. And God help you if you get a paper returned with the red pen saying you totally misunderstood or misrepresented an author's point. 

 

Jumping to connections, or worse, integration questions (such as "What do you think about river otters being endangered?") is the demon haunting every poor humanities TA who has to grade the 101 class blue book final. Until my child shows fluency with understanding the text itself, and has the life experience to make connections or have an opinion, I will dump these questions like the pox.

 

Yes, I feel strongly about this. :001_cool:  

[MeghanL]

I have a really bright kid who also tests the poorest in Reading Comprehension (which isn't to say he tests badly there, but it is certainly his weakest area!) Some of the things we've tried to help with this are:

1. Let the child listen to the audio book while they are reading along with the physical book. Just reading or just listening would cause his mind to wonder but the combination of both gave him fewer avenues to get distracted. 

2. We got a white board and a dry erase marker and I would read aloud to him while he would draw simple pictures to show what happened. This helped him to solidify a little more strongly what was happening and it forced a movie into his head long enough to draw something on the board. 

3. Let the child read on a kindle. Sometimes the length of the chapter or the text of the page was overwhelming so we would make the print extra large on the kindle so it wasn't so daunting. 

 

My kid has a lot of different issues happening all at once so depending on which is the most prominent at the moment, we'll bounce between those to see if it helps. That's not to say that some of the time he just isn't putting in the focus he needs to. And we do address that as well, but sometimes changing it up and applying one of the above is (for lack of better word) interesting enough (maybe?) that it gets his brain back in the right gear. YMMV.