At what point do we give up?

[Terabith]

Catherine is 11. Her most recent academic testing showed she is still spelling at a first grade level. She went through six levels of Wilson before the teacher retired. Minimal improvement. I'm looking for another tutor, but I'm not sure how much progress we are likely to get.

 

But, she's not at a level that's functional. Spellcheck can't correct her effectively. Do we keep working? Do we move towards accommodations? If so, what direction do we go in?

[PeterPan]

I'm not touching the SLD question, but has she had her eyes checked by a developmental optometrist?  Because I would think with 6 levels of Wilson and that much effort she should have gotten a LITTLE higher than that, assuming her visual memory was intact.  My ds spells around that level, and he's in Barton 4 for decoding, Barton 2 for spelling.  So I'm just saying what you got isn't matching where she was taught.  So then you back up and ask why it wasn't sticking, where the processing glitch is.

 

My dd had convergence issues, and when we had her tested at that age she had the visual memory of a 2 yo.  She was having spelling trouble too, and that kinda explained it.  

[OneStepAtATime]

I don't really have an answer but I wanted to send hugs and support.

 

I can't remember, has she seen a COVD?

[Terabith]

She did have vision therapy, but it was a disaster culminating in the optometrist to whom we had been driving two hours to see telling us she was going to wind up as a delinquent. We aren't doing that again. But yes, memory in general is pretty much nonexistent, with the exception of narrative or song.

[PeterPan]

Oh dear.  What about an OT eval by a really KICK BUTT OT.  Like SIPT-certified.  WPS publishing has the list.

[Pen]

It may depend on her. She is 2e? What are her strengths and what does she hope to do? Does she have any sense of what makes spelling hard and what might help her (if she wishes to spell better)? At age 11 and with 2e, I'd try to get her own ideas and wishes to be part of the input and decision making.

 

Probably I'd be looking to work on accommodations, but also maybe trying some other approach to the spelling instead of totally giving up.  Or taking a year or two off and then trying again.

[Pen]

BTW, what is the Wilson approach to spelling?

[MomatHWTK]

She could use a speech to text device to assist. That would be more robust than spellchecker. Is dysgraphia an issue or slow processing speed?

[OneStepAtATime]

If she has been tutoring with Wilson for that long and is that far into the program I think at this point I would try switching to a different approach. I am not as familiar with Wilson as I am other OG based systems. I agree with Pen, how does it approach spelling? Is it tied in with the OG based reading remediation? I can't remember.

[Ottakee]

Have you looked at Apples and Pears spelling? Not cheap but way cheaper than a tutor and easy to do at home.

[Terabith]

When we homeschooled, I used Apples and Pears and LOVED it. We never got past the first third of the first book- had to keep repeating it. It did help and was my favorite program, but as soon as we stopped, she forgot everything. No way can I after school. Compliance is an issue.

 

I do have a call in to a teacher at the autism school who is trained in OG. I think that might be a good combination. But I don't know.

 

Yes, 2e. Abysmal processing speed and working memory.

 

Have had several OT evals, but only one I would call top notch, and she has never had openings for therapy and says Cat doesn't really qualify because her fine motor skills are age appropriate. Haven't seen her since she was 7 or so, and not for lack of trying.

 

She doesn't have ideas. She says spelling is stupid and pointless.

[Innisfree]

Does she have ideas about what she'd like to do as an adult? Any goals?

[Terabith]

She would like to work in a rescue program for dragons and unicorns. She has no real sense of time or future goals. Other aspirations include being able to watch videos all day.

[PeterPan]

Isn't that interesting that someone with visual memory problems is craving visual!  I would see if you can find someone trained on retained reflexes or check for them yourself.  Retained reflexes are a very common reason for VT not to stick.  So if that's the explanation, that would be good to know.  Check for retained reflexes and start treating.  You can find videos online. The other thing to check is sensory integration, but that's the other, much more complex explanation.  Hopefully it's retained reflexes.

 

You could google spelling for VPD and see what you get.  Obviously you want to find a way to get the OT issues resolved so the VT can stick, but it would help to use other paths until then.  Typing engages kinesthetic memory.  You could do Sequential Spelling (built on patterns) but do it orally, then backwards (visualize the word and spell it aloud backwards), and then kinesthetically with typing.  And yes I would have her say the letters aloud while she types.

 

I strongly agree with the TTS.  Almost ANY device now can do TTS, and it's astonishingly accurate.  Turn the font size up, so she can see it.  A kindle fire, an old iphone/ipod, an old ipad, someone's castoff android tablet, ANYTHING can do it.  I think now even Windows has it in the operating system.  Did they just say the new mac OS is going to have it?  Well actually macs ALREADY have TTS.  What they're adding is the Siri function that is only on mobile right now.  So then you're able to talk for EVERYTHING.

 

I think your inclination to connect with the autism charter is right on.  My ds is on the high end of functioning when he goes in there, but reality is they GET him and they have the skill sets to bring good things out of him.  Does the autism school have an OT?  While you're there, you could ask if their OT checks for retained reflexes.  

Edited August 24, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Innisfree]

Yeah, my dd11 is pretty much there, too, with the clear career goals, lol. Her standard answer is "I dunno." ;-)

 

I was hoping maybe there'd be a path indicated that would let you say that spelling wasn't going to be a huge need for her.

 

No real ideas, then, but lots of sympathy. Speech to text sounds like a good thing to investigate.

[mom22kids]

Given that at 11 her brain has not finished growing/maturing I would not give up.  I think there is still room for improvement - I think it is possible.  But re-adjust your expectations (not saying you had unrealistic ones before) go into it with a - working on this to "maintain" it approach and it something stick and you see a period of growth or a learning spurt maybe double down on it during those times?

 

11 is so young to sort of give up on a necessary skill.  My dd is the same but opposite.  She is verbally inclined but can't tell you a thing about numbers.  I remember saying to my husband in frustration 'can't school just let her skip it?!?  It is sooooo painful to watch.  One of the reasons I don't home school is because my personality would be such that this kid would NEVER learn math again.  I hate it myself and DESPISE it more when the person I am working with is perpetually confused.  It brings out the worst in me! LOL

 

But definitely take the breaks from it when needed. We took an entire Summer off from math one year - and right before school started we sat down and she forgot how to add.  She was going into grade 6.  Forgot how to subtract.  Had to finger count 8-3=?  That question was on the sheet in three places and she got three different answers WITH her fingers. But the break had no real neg impact - the few skills she had eventually (quickly) came back and she was no worse for it.

[Heathermomster]

DS tested completely out of Wilson (12 levels) at the end of 6th grade. His school quit spelling after 5th grade. IDK how Wilson taught spelling as I wasn't present. I do know that his tutor veered from phonics and took a more kinesthetic and visualizing approach because that was what DS needed. DS typically scored high on spelling tests after a week of daily practice. Wilson is an excellent program in the hands of an excellent tutor. From 5th grade on, son's spelling improved on standardized testing by 2-3 grade levels per yer, and he thinks it is because he types and uses the spell checker.

 

Take a different approach to spelling if Wilson is not working. My son's Wilson tutor did not rely upon Wilson alone for spelling either and drew upon her Slingerland experience.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Heathermomster

[Heathermomster]

OP, your child doesn't need life goals right now, just a healthy hobby to love and pursue. Those hobbies and loves become the future jumping point of a career.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Heathermomster

[Terabith]

Yeah, she's fallen in love with playing Dungeons and Dragons and other role playing. It's awesome.

 

She's actually a good reader. She enjoys reading and tests sky high on comprehension, though her decoding is just grade level. Her vocabulary has tested at adult levels for many years. And on the WISC, her scores on block design and visual matrices were 99.9 th percentile. So she has some visual strengths. It's memory she doesn't have. She can remember stories and songs; the neuropsychologist said her narrative memory was uncanny. But she can't remember her birthday or phone number or how to spell. Her spelling is phonetic. The issue is that English has so many ways to spell a given sound, and it's rather random which one you use. That was the point where she got angry and shut down and the Wilson teacher gave up. How are you supposed to know to use ur instead of er or ir or even r in church? It makes no sense, and she is offended and isn't capable of just remembering.

 

We need to get on the typing. Part of the issue is, we sent her to school because I couldn't get past the noncompliance and constant crying and screaming was unhealthy for all of us. School has been excellent in many ways, but we can't really do after schooling, at least with me, because there is the noncompliance and she is worn out. I can't really make her do anything, as she has no currency. And I feel in my gut like swim lessons/ art lesson/ playing D&D is so much more important than spelling, when we have seen so little progress. The school has given up. She is too far below grade level, and they can read her writing.

[Minerva]

So many hugs.

 

I have no suggestions as I am in a similar boat. DD (11) cannot spell, or punctuate, or capitalize, despite years and years of tutors, programs, interventions, hours of trying...We just keep plugging away. I often wonder why we keep trying, but I also am not able to just give up. 

 

We are currently doing Apples and Pears spelling (second book) and also TTRS (Tough to Read and Spell) typing, which is a typing program for dyslexics. She is slow to learn typing, and doesn't love it, but I actually think it is the best spelling program we have done yet. 

 

We have not used any voice to text systems yet. My dd tells stories into the tablet and I transcribe them for her. She is a good story teller if she doesn't have to fuss with the writing part. 

 

 

 

 

[Ravin]

In your shoes I would move towards accommodations. Voice to text is probably the way to go. 

[wapiti]

I have no suggestions for what to do but also vote for no giving up on these skills. It sounds like yet more detective work will be involved. She is clearly a 2e kid.

[kbutton]

Yeah, she's fallen in love with playing Dungeons and Dragons and other role playing. It's awesome.

 

She's actually a good reader. She enjoys reading and tests sky high on comprehension, though her decoding is just grade level. Her vocabulary has tested at adult levels for many years. And on the WISC, her scores on block design and visual matrices were 99.9 th percentile. So she has some visual strengths. It's memory she doesn't have. She can remember stories and songs; the neuropsychologist said her narrative memory was uncanny. But she can't remember her birthday or phone number or how to spell. Her spelling is phonetic. The issue is that English has so many ways to spell a given sound, and it's rather random which one you use. That was the point where she got angry and shut down and the Wilson teacher gave up. How are you supposed to know to use ur instead of er or ir or even r in church? It makes no sense, and she is offended and isn't capable of just remembering.

 

We need to get on the typing. Part of the issue is, we sent her to school because I couldn't get past the noncompliance and constant crying and screaming was unhealthy for all of us. School has been excellent in many ways, but we can't really do after schooling, at least with me, because there is the noncompliance and she is worn out. I can't really make her do anything, as she has no currency. And I feel in my gut like swim lessons/ art lesson/ playing D&D is so much more important than spelling, when we have seen so little progress. The school has given up. She is too far below grade level, and they can read her writing.

 

I don't know if you have tried ABA or are even open to it, but it's helping my 2e ASD kiddo that is twelve. He also has no currency. It would not necessarily work with just any BCBA, but ours has been very creative and heard all the ways in which things can go south, and yet she sticks around and helps us work out the kinks to get workable behavior issues under control. We had her for social skills tutoring, and then it became clear (over time and getting to know him) that she could help some. Anyway, just a thought; no pressure.

 

My son did some typing with Dance Mat and the Island one (Typing Instructor for Kids, maybe?)--he'd alternate between programs when one started to drive him nuts. When he got up to about 5-10 words per minute, we started doing Sequential Spelling for a typing lesson as well as spelling. It didn't matter if he was slow as long as he used the right fingers. It really makes the kinesthetic part stick because there is so much repetition, you do it daily, and the program uses patterns. If her visual memory is so poor, I would consider having her type the lesson, and then immediately do the lesson as intended (say one word at a time with immediate correction), but do the lesson typed as well. If she tolerates that, you might have her up the number of times she types each word before the lesson. My husband thinks in motor patterns, not visual patterns--if he has to remember a phone number, he puts up his finger and "dials" it in the air. 

 

Just another thing to try. For other work, I do think speech to text is the way to go. 

[Pen]

 

She doesn't have ideas. She says spelling is stupid and pointless.

 

 

This sounds like my ds--except that he believes this with academics in general, not just spelling.  And is part of why he is going to brick and mortar school this next year :).

 

I would not keep trying with someone who is resistant since she may be right that it is stupid and pointless and in any case learning when the desire to learn is not there is probably not going to work.

 

I'd probably say to my child (I think I did just this!) that spelling may well be stupid and pointless, but that many people will judge abilities to be low if spelling is inadequate and that it could close some doors for her that someday she may want open. I'd leave an offer open for her that if she ever decides she would like to work on spelling, you'll be willing to try to help her find a way. That if she does ever want to, it is up to her to come to you and ask. And then let go of it. Really let go of it. Not your problem.

[Terabith]

I'm open to ABA, but Virginia has no autism mandate past age six, and it's not really available, let alone affordable. Especially given that she doesn't have a firm autism diagnosis.

[GoVanGogh]

I haven't read through all of the responses, but I am wondering if she has apraxia or if she has been evaluated by a speech pathologist? My son had very weak spelling skills (or non existent!) until he was diagnosed with verbal apraxia and received therapy for that. In DS's case, he doesn't have a good sense of feeling of where his mouth/lips/tongue are and never encoded - or connected between his brain and his mouth how the different sounds were spelled. We went through years of different phonics programs until we realized he didn't have a firm grasp on what his mouth was doing when he tried to sound out words to spell.

 

Hugs!

[Pen]

...

1) How are you supposed to know to use ur instead of er or ir or even r in church? It makes no sense, and she is offended and isn't capable of just remembering.

 

2) Part of the issue is, we sent her to school because I couldn't get past the noncompliance and constant crying and screaming was unhealthy for all of us. School has been excellent in many ways, but we can't really do after schooling, at least with me, because there is the noncompliance and she is worn out. I can't really make her do anything, as she has no currency. And I feel in my gut like swim lessons/ art lesson/ playing D&D is so much more important than spelling, when we have seen so little progress. The school has given up. She is too far below grade level, and they can read her writing.

\\

 

1) If she were actually interested in learning to spell, you might be able to use her higher 2e abilities to get interested in derivation of words as explaining why some words with same sounds are spelled differently. It is not as random as a phone number.  (probably church has a ur due to derivation from Greek kurios (lord) or something like that)  My ds tends to use vary when he means very...knowing the Latin origins of each could help not confuse them--but it takes being interested enough to care. 

 

As ds is done with home school I have been going through materials and curriculum and paring down to a few things worth saving, but it has lead me to realize how much effort and caring I was putting in to his education, and how little he was invested in it. Some areas really did need extra help finding things for him due to LD's, but they only finally worked (such as reading remediation) if he genuinely cared to put in the effort and active learning that it takes. 

 

2) Put your relationship as mom, and emotional health--including your own-- ahead of her spelling.  Go with your gut.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Pen

[Terabith]

Pretty sure there is no apraxia. She spoke clearly at five months and in sentences before a year. Her pronunciation has always been crystal clear, "little professor" like. I mean, I guess it's possible, but she has never had difficulty with speech and has a very agile mouth.

[kbutton]

I'm open to ABA, but Virginia has no autism mandate past age six, and it's not really available, let alone affordable. Especially given that she doesn't have a firm autism diagnosis.

 

That's rough. I'm sorry! 

[Innisfree]

I'm open to ABA, but Virginia has no autism mandate past age six, and it's not really available, let alone affordable. Especially given that she doesn't have a firm autism diagnosis.

...poof...

 

 

 

As for ABA, I don't know about qualifying for it without a firm diagnosis-- that does add a wrinkle. But have you tried googling your location with "ABA", or asking your pediatrician for a referral? (Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious and you've done all this; it's just how we got connected). We made contact with the ABA provider first, and they were very familiar with the FAPT system for securing funding. No one else had mentioned FAPT to me. I'm sure there are variations by county, but it might be worth a try.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Innisfree

[Terabith]

We could probably get a diagnosis. Her psychiatrist thinks she is autistic. But the VA Tech Autism Center disagreed.

[kbutton]

We could probably get a diagnosis. Her psychiatrist thinks she is autistic. But the VA Tech Autism Center disagreed.

 

2e kids can fall through the cracks at "autism" places sometimes (not always). If her psychiatrist can and will diagnose, I would go for it. Otherwise, maybe you can find a private psychologist familiar with 2e ASD kiddos, especially if your psychiatrist has one to recommend. That's what we did, or I think my son would've never been diagnosed, particularly since it wasn't even on our radar (we knew it was "more" than ADHD, but had no idea what). We just found a psych who did 2e and was good with kids whose issues disrupt all of home life. Apparently that is code for good with 2e ASD kiddos and families, lol! With the diagnosis though, his providers for social, behavioral, etc. said that there is no question he is, but that it's not like it all shows up at once in your face. It's really getting to know him that makes it evident. 

[Innisfree]

Yeah, she's fallen in love with playing Dungeons and Dragons and other role playing. It's awesome.

 

She's actually a good reader. She enjoys reading and tests sky high on comprehension, though her decoding is just grade level. Her vocabulary has tested at adult levels for many years. And on the WISC, her scores on block design and visual matrices were 99.9 th percentile. So she has some visual strengths. It's memory she doesn't have. She can remember stories and songs; the neuropsychologist said her narrative memory was uncanny. But she can't remember her birthday or phone number or how to spell. Her spelling is phonetic. The issue is that English has so many ways to spell a given sound, and it's rather random which one you use. That was the point where she got angry and shut down and the Wilson teacher gave up. How are you supposed to know to use ur instead of er or ir or even r in church? It makes no sense, and she is offended and isn't capable of just remembering.

 

We need to get on the typing. Part of the issue is, we sent her to school because I couldn't get past the noncompliance and constant crying and screaming was unhealthy for all of us. School has been excellent in many ways, but we can't really do after schooling, at least with me, because there is the noncompliance and she is worn out. I can't really make her do anything, as she has no currency. And I feel in my gut like swim lessons/ art lesson/ playing D&D is so much more important than spelling, when we have seen so little progress. The school has given up. She is too far below grade level, and they can read her writing.

She sounds like a fantastic kid with lots of strong skills.

 

When I asked about her interests for the future, I guess I was following the same thought process I have with my own dd. There are so many choices about where to put time and energy, and it's impossible to do all the therapy, all the academic work, all the social skills training that I'd like.

 

So I'm constantly making choices which are grounded on an understanding of what she's most likely to need. And I'm second-guessing myself constantly. So questions like "does she need to be on a college-prep path, or is vocational school going to be more appropriate?" are very much in the forefront of my mind, and they inform my decisions about whether to spend time on, say, writing history papers, or on volunteering in a work setting connected to her special interest instead.

 

You don't need to provide that sort of information here, but that's the thought process I'd follow in trying to decide whether to keep on struggling with spelling.

 

I'd also probably be wanting a firm diagnosis if there was any chance of getting it and if it might open doors to help.

 

Many, many hugs and best wishes.

[Heathermomster]

When I addressed your question earlier, I wasn't thinking in terms of your child being on the spectrum.

 

We've had moms discuss their children and mention how spelling improved after puberty.  These parents took an interest-led approach to spelling and used alternative therapies like horseback riding.  

 

DS worked with an OT initially but then moved over to a sports med center and worked with a ped PT.  The ped PT was more informed and better trained than the OT, and son loved it.

 

Good luck!

Edited August 25, 2016 by Heathermomster

[Terabith]

It's an open question as to whether or not she is on the spectrum. Thanks!

[ondreeuh]

My 15 y/o son is very similar (but has verbal apraxia). He became a great reader after lots of work, and he has an excellent narrative memory but terrible working memory. He is an awful speller who has extremely poor phonemic awareness and leaves out sounds and syllables when he tries to write phonetically, and then of course makes all the mistakes in the sounds of /er/ and things like that. He also still can't remember his phone number or tie his shoes, has trouble cooking, etc. He does great at chess, because his visual discrimination and pattern recognition skills are very high.

 

We have tried things off and on over the years. Sequential spelling, Apples & Pears, Spelling Plus, Saxon Phonics Intervention, REWARDS, Phonetic Zoo ... sometimes I have taken the year off of spelling. At this point I have given up on teaching phonetic spelling, because that is just not the way he can learn it. We're going back to Sequential Spelling, this time with their online program. He tested into Level 2, which surprised me. I'm just going to have him do

 

Last year I started having him type most of his work. He can use spellcheck, and I make him read his work out loud to check for mistakes. He catches some that way, but often still reads what he meant to write, not what is on the page.

 

My son has an IEP for writing, which lines up accommodations should he go back to brick & mortar school. He is actually taking two classes this semester, and I'm thinking I should probably email the teachers a heads-up.

 

His father has a milder disability of written expression, and he has continued to improve as he's gotten older. He has to do a lot of writing for his job, so he is personally invested in improving.

 

Look into Sequential Spelling Online - it is $10 for one level or $5 per level if you buy a pack of 4 credits. It's completely independent and can be done in a few minutes.

Edited August 26, 2016 by ondreeuh

[BlsdMama]

Just hugs.  Lots of 'em.