Poll about God's supernatural presence and activity out in the material world and within believers (CC)

[forty-two]

My question has to do with what you believe God is doing *supernaturally* on earth, and in believers. Specifically: which Person or Person(s) of the Trinity (if any) are supernaturally present and active out in the material world? (God's presence/activity in and through the sacramental elements counts here, including Christ's Real Presence in the Eucharist.) And which Persons are supernaturally present and active within believers? *Supernatural* is key here - if you believe God is responsible but works *purely* through natural means, then it doesn't count for the purposes of this poll. 

If possible, I'd love posts giving a brief explanation of your answer - what's each Person of the Trinity doing and not doing, both out in the created world, and within believers? (I have a theory about a trend in the answers.). Eta: please include your denomination if possible.

Feel free to ask for clarification as needed. Also, I'm not looking to debate answers - just to see what they are and try to understand the range of answers. Thank you so much for helping me out :).

 

 

ETA: In response to a comment, working supernaturally through natural means totally counts as working supernaturally for poll purposes, so long as you understand God's supernatural work to be driving the process and that supernatural activity is occurring right now, in the present (and not only in the past). What doesn't count for poll purposes is where God's supernatural presence is behind natural laws in such a way that it is functionally indistinguishable from His absence - that generic you doesn't believe that God does anything different from what natural laws would have done anyway. Also, believing that God supernaturally initiated natural laws at creation that then operate apart from continual, ongoing supernatural involvement doesn't count for poll purposes, either.

Basically, I'm trying to get at whether people consider God to be supernaturally active in the world in a way that makes a concrete, material difference. If that helps any.

Edited August 24, 2016 by forty-two

[Guest]

We (EOrthodox) sing this hymn alllll the time; it is a prayer to the Holy Spirit.

 

O Heavenly King, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth,

Who art everywhere present and fillest all things;

Treasury of blessings and giver of life--

Come and abide in us, and cleanse us from every impurity

and save our souls, O Good One.

 

*Note that I believe that God works supernaturally through natural means.  :0)  

[Bluegoat]

This is an interesting question, but I find I am really uncomfortable with the word "supernatural".  Am I right in understanding something like the difference between what we might call natural revelation and special revelation? 

[forty-two]

*Note that I believe that God works supernaturally through natural means. :0)

Working supernaturally through natural means totally counts as working supernaturally for poll purposes, so long as God's supernatural work is driving the process and is occurring right now (and not only in the past). What doesn't count for poll purposes is where God's supernatural presence is behind natural laws in such a way that it is functionally indistinguishable from His absence - that generic you doesn't believe that God does anything different from what natural laws would have done anyway. Also, believing that God supernaturally initiated natural laws at creation that then operated apart from continual, ongoing supernatural involvement doesn't count for poll purposes, either.

 

Basically, I'm trying to get at whether people consider God to be supernaturally active in the world in a way that makes a concrete, material difference. If that helps any.

[TechWife]

Basically, I'm trying to get at whether people consider God to be supernaturally active in the world in a way that makes a concrete, material difference. If that helps any.

 

Yes, He is. Because I am a Trinitarian, I believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all active within believers and in the material world. The purposes are different, however. In the material world, the purpose is to draw unbelieving people to belief. In the believers, the purpose is to grow faith to maturity. Insofar as believers interact with the material world (we live in a house, for example), the material world can be used to grow the faith of believers to maturity as well. 

 

I think I may have just confused myself. I'm off to ponder and I may or may not be back with further insight...

[forty-two]

This is an interesting question, but I find I am really uncomfortable with the word "supernatural".  Am I right in understanding something like the difference between what we might call natural revelation and special revelation? 

 

Probably?  General revelation and special revelation aren't really terms my tradition uses much; I've read about them and I *think* they apply, but my understanding of them is wrapped up in the theory I'm testing here.  IOW, how generic you connects those terms to my question is actually really pertinent to what I'm trying to find out.

 

I'm trying to figure out how "mixy" people see the supernatural and the natural, particularly in terms of what that means for the possibility and "normality" of God's beyond-natural presence and activity in the natural world.  If that helps any.

[Guest]

Yes. Otherwise no man would be saved, because that is an absolutely supernatural act. Also I believe God (via the person of the Holy Spirit, not through Fathet or Son materially) works in the lives of believers, sometimes in completely inexplicable ways that couldn't be anything natural or concidental.

 

That said, I accept limits on the depth to which the Holy Spirit (who is fully God in nature and distinct in person) actively intervenes as the precedents set for the New Testament church account, as well as the pattern in the first several hundred years of church history. Not to say God cannot do more, but oftentimes works through more subtle means. I also believe strongly in predestination as revealed in the scripture and am firmly a monergist, not a synergist. I have no idea if this answers your question?

Edited August 24, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[Bluegoat]

Well, I think all three members are active in the world and individuals in what you are calling a supernatural way, and I would say that is the orthodox Christian position That is to say, I don't think it is a matter of God having set off some sort of world-clock mechanism and stepped back while it plays itself out, as a deist might, I think that is an illogical position.

 

I would say, I think, the natural laws of the universe inhere in the Divine mind at all times, and that is what gives them their reality.  In a way you might say that it is God's being that gifts to them their being - if he stopped thinking about them, or stopped being himself, they would also pop out of existence.  God is the principle of Being, of existence, or the possibility of anything.  And he doesn't change his orientation to creation over time.

 

I often think of this in terms of the creation story, which I do not think is meant to be understood as something that happened at a moment in time - all moments in time are united to the act of creation, I'm fact are acts of creation, the act of creation.

 

I'm somewhat disinclined to separate out things like what seem to us to be special actions on Gods part from natural laws, though I think we can do it, for practical reasons. if we are careful.  But often I think these instances are a matter of our limited perspective or even of our warped perceptions, or the effects of the Fall. that require a return to unity or creative renewal.

 

ETA - I would also say all are active in non-believers.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Bluegoat

[MercyA]

Basically, I'm trying to get at whether people consider God to be supernaturally active in the world in a way that makes a concrete, material difference. 

 

YES. I have seen it. 

 

For question #1, I voted for Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. For question #2, I voted for Son and Holy Spirit, because I can readily think of Scriptural support for both indwelling believers. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any Scripture indicating that the Father indwells believers, but I am open to being corrected on that. 

 

I am a non-denominational Christian. I lean Anabaptist.

 

p.s. I love your avatar, forty-two. So cute! 

Edited August 24, 2016 by MercyA

[forty-two]

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any Scripture indicating that the Father indwells believers, but I am open to being corrected on that.

I learned relatively recently (to my surprise) that my church (Lutheran) teaches that believers are indwelt by the whole Trinity, based on 1 Cor 3:16-17 (that Christians are "God's temple" - we understand that to mean Father, Son & Spirit - that "God's Spirit" doesn't dwell in us in a way that separates the presence of the Spirit from the presence of the other members of the Trinity).

 

p.s. I love your avatar, forty-two. So cute!

Thank you :). There's just something about that perplexed "but...where'd the mouse go?" expression that I thought was so cute every time I read that story to my kids (although now I'm blanking on the name of the story :doh - Beatrix Potter's "The Tale of Miss M_____" - I keep wanting to fill in "Miss Marple", but that's from the wrong British author ;). Eta: Ha! I just remembered - it's Miss *Moppet*.) Edited August 24, 2016 by forty-two

[Carol in Cal.]

Ha, I voted all three for both, and am Confessional Lutheran, but as I voted I thought, 'I'm not entirely sure whether this is the teaching of our church or not.  But probably it is.'  So, FortyTwo, I'm glad you confirmed that. 

 

My rationale:  So the Holy Spirit--that's easy, 'calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies...'.  He gives us faith and helps us to pray (in our weakness, with sighs too deep for words).  He manifested God at Pentecost.  The Son is the Victor who fought and beat Satan but who also fights him 'on the ground' to this day.  Mopping up operations, so to speak.  Worthy is the Lamb!  And He claims us as His own in Baptism, or else why would we be marked with the cross of Christ the crucified?  And the Father is He to Whom Jesus taught us to pray, and to Whom Jesus Himself prayed, so He must be active specifically.  Additionally, He is the Creator, and creation is ongoing; and Christ is the Word 'without Whom nothing was made that was made' so was and therefore is actively involved in creation, and the Spirit 'brooded over the face of the deep' at creation and so was involved and must still be involved. 

 

Regarding supernatural vs. natural, very straightforwardly I believe that God has complete power and authority over all creation, and that He can do anything and does not have to limit Himself to the laws of the universe that He originally set up in the first place.  That does not mean that I believe that He causes everything that happens, but certainly He has the power to do so.  I know that He works through means that are natural and through means that are not, and I pray to see the good that He promises is brought out of all things for those who love Him.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Carol in Cal.

[forty-two]

Ha, I voted all three for both, and am Confessional Lutheran, but as I voted I thought, 'I'm not entirely sure whether this is the teaching of our church or not. But probably it is.' So, FortyTwo, I'm glad you confirmed that.

In case you are curious, I found it in the Formula of Concord, Solid Declaration, Article III.54.

[Carol in Cal.]

In case you are curious, I found it in the Formula of Concord, Solid Declaration, Article III.54.

Thanks for the reference!  

[Pen]

I've had personal experiences that subjectively seem to be supernatural workings of God in myself and in the world, but I don't think they would seem so to anyone else to be anything other than purely natural. So, how does that count for this poll?

[forty-two]

I've had personal experiences that subjectively seem to be supernatural workings of God in myself and in the world, but I don't think they would seem so to anyone else to be anything other than purely natural. So, how does that count for this poll?

Depends what you mean by "subjective". If you consider the events themselves to have been objectively real, supernatural workings that really happened in a factual sense - even if you cannot objectively prove them to others even a little bit - then it counts for the poll in both categories. If you consider the events themselves to have been subjective in a "God was supernaturally bringing my attention to the supernatural significance of a natural event", then it just counts under "within believers". If you consider the events themselves to have been subjective in a "God was naturally bringing my attention to the supernatural significance of a natural event", then it doesn't count under either category.

 

Clear as mud? ;)

 

Eta: basically, if *you* believe it is objectively possible for God to have supernaturally acted in that way - that whatever it was "really happened" in the same way that your getting out of bed in the morning really happened - then it counts for the purposes of the poll, even if your ability to prove or even explain it to others is nil.

Edited August 24, 2016 by forty-two

[MercyA]

Ha, I voted all three for both, and am Confessional Lutheran, but as I voted I thought, 'I'm not entirely sure whether this is the teaching of our church or not.  But probably it is.'  So, FortyTwo, I'm glad you confirmed that. 

 

My rationale:  So the Holy Spirit--that's easy, 'calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies...'.  He gives us faith and helps us to pray (in our weakness, with sighs too deep for words).  He manifested God at Pentecost.  The Son is the Victor who fought and beat Satan but who also fights him 'on the ground' to this day.  Mopping up operations, so to speak.  Worthy is the Lamb!  And He claims us as His own in Baptism, or else why would we be marked with the cross of Christ the crucified?  And the Father is He to Whom Jesus taught us to pray, and to Whom Jesus Himself prayed, so He must be active specifically.  Additionally, He is the Creator, and creation is ongoing; and Christ is the Word 'without Whom nothing was made that was made' so was and therefore is actively involved in creation, and the Spirit 'brooded over the face of the deep' at creation and so was involved and must still be involved. 

 

Regarding supernatural vs. natural, very straightforwardly I believe that God has complete power and authority over all creation, and that He can do anything and does not have to limit Himself to the laws of the universe that He originally set up in the first place.  That does not mean that I believe that He causes everything that happens, but certainly He has the power to do so.  I know that He works through means that are natural and through means that are not, and I pray to see the good that He promises is brought out of all things for those who love Him.

 

Amen, and amen! Well said, Carol.

[MercyA]

I learned relatively recently (to my surprise) that my church (Lutheran) teaches that believers are indwelt by the whole Trinity, based on 1 Cor 3:16-17 (that Christians are "God's temple" - we understand that to mean Father, Son & Spirit - that "God's Spirit" doesn't dwell in us in a way that separates the presence of the Spirit from the presence of the other members of the Trinity).

 

Thank you :). There's just something about that perplexed "but...where'd the mouse go?" expression that I thought was so cute every time I read that story to my kids (although now I'm blanking on the name of the story :doh - Beatrix Potter's "The Tale of Miss M_____" - I keep wanting to fill in "Miss Marple", but that's from the wrong British author ;). Eta: Ha! I just remembered - it's Miss *Moppet*.)

 

Hmm, very interesting! The verse itself is a bit tricky, I think: "Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?" So, does "God" in the first part of the verse refer only to the Spirit? For myself, I would file it under the "I'm not sure but don't really need to know" category.  :)

 

I  :wub: both Miss Moppet and Miss Marple! 

[Pen]

Depends what you mean by "subjective". If you consider the events themselves to have been objectively real, supernatural workings that really happened in a factual sense - even if you cannot objectively prove them to others even a little bit - then it counts for the poll in both categories. If you consider the events themselves to have been subjective in a "God was supernaturally bringing my attention to the supernatural significance of a natural event", then it just counts under "within believers". If you consider the events themselves to have been subjective in a "God was naturally bringing my attention to the supernatural significance of a natural event", then it doesn't count under either category.

 

Clear as mud? ;)

 

Eta: basically, if *you* believe it is objectively possible for God to have supernaturally acted in that way - that whatever it was "really happened" in the same way that your getting out of bed in the morning really happened - then it counts for the purposes of the poll, even if your ability to prove or even explain it to others is nil.

 

 

LOL.  OK. It SUBjectively really happened, same as getting out of bed.

 

But none of the poll choices fits since it was an encounter with an indivisible, "One Being" God.

[forty-two]

LOL.  OK. It SUBjectively really happened, same as getting out of bed.

 

But none of the poll choices fits since it was an encounter with an indivisible, "One Being" God.

 

If you mean a non-Trinitarian God, then, yes, none of the poll choices fit.  But if you mean all three Persons of the Trinity acting together, then choosing all three Persons *does* fit, at least wrt what I meant when making the poll.

[bolt.]

Because all 3 persons mutually all contain the indwelling of the other two, it is impossible to imagine any of him working apart from the rest of him. If God is at work (and he is) then he is all at work.

 

Because Christians are in indwelt by the the Spirit (who is both 'the Spirit of God' and 'the Spirit of Christ') we are indwelt by all 3 persons. Further, because of this Spirit-of-Christ connection, we are also said to 'dwell in Christ' (and God). So our presence is *within* the co-unity of God-all-three, both from the temporal and eternal perspective.

 

So, all 3 to both questions. (Even though scripture does make some references to what I creatively imagine to be various 'leadership roles' for various events/actions.)

Edited August 24, 2016 by bolt.

[Bluegoat]

Because all 3 persons mutually all contain the indwelling of the other two, it is impossible to imagine any of him working apart from the rest of him. If God is at work (and he is) then he is all at work.

 

Because Christians are in indwelt by the the Spirit (who is both 'the Spirit of God' and 'the Spirit of Christ') we are indwelt by all 3 persons. Further, because of this Spirit-of-Christ connection, we are also said to 'dwell in Christ' (and God). So our presence is *within* the co-unity of God-all-three, both from the temporal and eternal perspective.

 

So, all 3 to both questions. (Even though scripture does make some references to what I creatively imagine to be various 'leadership roles' for various events/actions.)

 

 

Yes, I think if you work out the theology of creation, you have to see all three in the material world, so while Scriptural references might give some confirmation, I can't see them as necessary.

 

And really, if all are present in the material world, that includes people too.