Continual, slow-drip approach or delayed approach to writing/LA?

[Jenn in CA]

My 4 oldest kids have all been very bright. I didn't have to teach them spelling, grammar, mechanics,... they just picked it up via reading/copywork. They all did a formal grammar book in 6th grade where they learned terms such as participles, etc. I think the basic parts of speech they just picked up.

 

Now I have kid #5 who has dyslexia, some auditory processing weakness, age 8.5, who dislikes school and writing. She struggles mightily with abstract ideas like grammar. She goes to Scottish Rite weekly where the SLP told me last week that dd had a hard time understanding nouns & verbs (I believe her, I've tried and given up quickly), and she was "almost concerned" because kids her age should grasp that.

 

I guess I'm wondering if I should be doing continual, small amounts (or large amounts) of writing, grammar, sentence structure, etc. etc. because she's going to need the repetition... even copywork is very difficult, and riddled with errors. OR if we should focus on the reading & spelling, and save writing/grammar/etc. for a couple/few years from now.

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

[EKS]

I would (and did) wait until reading is solid until working on spelling, grammar, and writing.  

 

I would work on handwriting and having her dictate responses and sentences and paragraphs to you.

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:   I know this can be frustrating and honestly it is going to be hard to know for sure what will work best for your particular child.  Sending positive vibes your way while you work this out.

 

Personally?  I would absolutely wait on grammar.  She is probably struggling not just with the concept but with turning the words themselves into something meaningful.  For instance, it took me a long time to figure out that DD was not truly grasping the word "addition".  She was mimicking what others were doing when she did worksheets at school but did not actually understand the concept of addition OR the term.  Even once she grasped the concept of addition, she did not always link that concept to the term when she heard or read it.  I ran into this again with grammar.  Eventually what a noun meant finally made sense to her (as in she finally grasped the underlying meaning that the term "noun" used in the English language applies to) but she would still struggle with linking the term, when she heard it or read it, to the meaning she had finally grasped.  

 

FWIW, a child/adult can be extremely bright and still struggle with grammar/writing/reading.  Struggles in these areas does not mean the child is not bright.  It just means they may have glitches in these areas that make learning more challenging, at least for these areas.

 

Work on the reading.  Spelling is secondary.  Work on the reading.  And don't let her fall behind in exposure to material.  If she can, let her listen to audio books.  If that is a struggle, read to her as much as you can, and as slowly as necessary for her to understand what you are reading.  She needs exposure to vocabulary, grammar, concepts, stories, etc. in context, not just in isolation.  Other kids would be getting that while reading.  Also, documentaries and kids' educational shows might help with that.

[Heathermomster]

Yes, exactly as EKS said.

[Kat w]

Well. I guess I would go a different way.

 

We had these issues too, only ours was more complex , all the spec ed teachers , private therapists said the same thing.

 

To work on the language arts also.

At some point the go in unison and give the DC the big picture of what words are and why.

 

We did immersion here and it worked. Learning language arts helps them be able to put the phonograms into words (see how they go together while studying a noun for Instance) words into clauses, clauses into sentences.

 

I've always been told by our SP. Eds and therapist.... Work on language arts and reading.

 

Because, the language give the big picture of what and why and shows them the importance and that they will be using It later.

 

If there's processing involved, it takes a long time to get these things in their minds so they can be used.

 

I would recommend do both . it worked for us.

 

Processing puts a different spin on things.

 

I like your slow drip analagy :)

 

Ts a good one.

I'd do that lol :)

[Kat w]

I was just rereading your initial post Jenn.

 

Yes. Because of all the practice they need, the repition , you'll need to start now.

 

Who knows how long the reading process could take. Has taken a long time here.

 

Waiting puts the processing child at a bigger deficit.

 

I wouldn't wait.

Id do both. One as much as the other .

I wouldn't want to waste the precious time of putting it aside until reading is down.

 

Language helps the reading process.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Kat w

[kbutton]

Since I have a kid with APD, I am going to ask a bit of a different question--does her problem with nouns and verbs potentially stem from receptive language problems (how she takes language in when she hears it)? If you don't know or haven't had that kind of testing, no biggie. I ask because APD kids sometimes don't quite pick up a "feel" for the meaning of words related to their grammar that is the basis for lots of language stuff. It doesn't matter so much if they don't get the specifics of grammar, but it can affect how they process the meaning of things, and it can snowball from there. For instance, it won't really matter right now if she knows what a preposition is, but if she doesn't understand what with, at, for, before, etc. mean, that's a big deal. Some kids fake that pretty well until they start to lag behind peers. APD tendencies make that more likely. My APD kiddo will often "hear" a request for an object, and his response is to say something like "this one?" until he finds the correct object. His grammar is glitchy but not awful, but kids with processing weaknesses don't realize they have them usually, and they do their own little thing to compensate and logic things out because they miss some of those pieces. It creates some holes and workarounds, and that might be what you and the Scottish Rite people are seeing.

 

I would not worry about formal grammar until reading is solid, but you might find some resources that involve "grammar processing" that don't teach grammar to see if she would benefit from them. 

 

If you've not had something like the CELF or CASL done (expressive and receptive language testing), you might consider have that kind of testing done (CASL is usually recommended with auditory processing weaknesses). If you have, and they show receptive weaknesses, those things could be why you are seeing grammar glitches. 

 

https://www.superduperinc.com/products/view.aspx?pid=tpx27704#.V7XCepgrIdU    Books like this one target that underlying grammar sense, but do not teach grammar. I am not sure how to explain it well. With the auditory processing weaknesses, this can help the listening and responding skills, so it wouldn't necessarily be a total waste of time if it doesn't quite target what's going on. The site has samples of the pages, and they get progressively harder. It looks pretty simple, but that's because it's very systematic about moving through all the typical constructs for grammar (receptive understanding), and then also combining those pieces together. It doesn't have to be a time-consuming intervention.

 

Just some thoughts. If this sounds like something helpful, but I've been as clear as mud, let me know, and I will try again, lol! 
 

I do absolutely agree with not stressing about formal grammar academically right now. 

[PeterPan]

My 4 oldest kids have all been very bright. I didn't have to teach them spelling, grammar, mechanics,... they just picked it up via reading/copywork. They all did a formal grammar book in 6th grade where they learned terms such as participles, etc. I think the basic parts of speech they just picked up.

 

Now I have kid #5 who has dyslexia, some auditory processing weakness, age 8.5, who dislikes school and writing. She struggles mightily with abstract ideas like grammar. She goes to Scottish Rite weekly where the SLP told me last week that dd had a hard time understanding nouns & verbs (I believe her, I've tried and given up quickly), and she was "almost concerned" because kids her age should grasp that.

 

I guess I'm wondering if I should be doing continual, small amounts (or large amounts) of writing, grammar, sentence structure, etc. etc. because she's going to need the repetition... even copywork is very difficult, and riddled with errors. OR if we should focus on the reading & spelling, and save writing/grammar/etc. for a couple/few years from now.

 

Any thoughts?

 

I'm not sure if anybody already explained it this way, but my take, when I read that, is that the SLP is saying that as an SLP and tutor she's seeing things that could go BEYOND the dyslexia label.  I think you could ask her flat out whether she's recommending possible language testing for a language disability.  

 

Dog Ate My Mad Libs: Price Stern Sloan: 9780843182934: Amazon.com: Books  You could try doing some of the mad libs with her.  It's something I do with my ds to plant the seeds of the concepts.  For him, it's extremely hard to list a word that describes, a word that names, etc.  To go label all the nouns in that sentence, not happening.  Even to answer the questions in Shurley, well honestly that's iffy.  We may try at some point.  But he has an ASD diagnosis.  When a dc can't answer wh-questions, doesn't understand categories of words (how are these pictures alike, what doesn't belong, name three things that go, etc.), these are more reflecting a language problem rather than just dyslexia.  But those are things *my* ds does and struggles with.

 

Because your other kids were so unusually easy and intuitive on these things, it's hard for you to tell how much of a problem you're seeing.  That's why I go back to testing and quantifying it.  I would back up a LOT more than you think, like back to concepts.  There's a book called Word Fun that introduces grammar concepts with a picture book and activity format.  If that doesn't click, back up even further.  Definitely try Mad Libs.  Remove the grammar label and just see if the *concept* is intact.  I would NOT just take a traditional format grammar and pound and pound.  I think grammar ought to be comfortable and within reach, so I would back up until it is in reach.  That will let you know how deep the issue goes and what's not clicking.  Or go ahead and have the SLP run the CELF or CASL or some other testing and see what's going on.  Language testing would be a normal part of a complete neuropsych eval for SLDs.  It's a reasonable thing to ask.

Edited August 18, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Black-eyed Suzan]

Just a thought, but have you looked into alternate ways to approach grammar? I'm thinking specifically of Michael Clay Thompson's Grammar Island (just that book in particular). He incorporates grammar concepts into a story. We did it as a read aloud. It might help her build a foundation?