Suggestions for us? Vision, Dysgraphia, ADHD, Retained Reflexes, come on in!

[Joyful Journeys]

Hi all, I'm back again with almost everyone's scores from the testing we've done. Overall I would say that I'm pleasantly surprised at the results. For both my girls, they seem to average to above average intelligence and a good foundation to work with. I'm going to make 2 posts in one thread, so that you all (and I lol) can keep it straight.

 

 

First up is DD8, she'll be 9 in Oct and is starting 3rd grade. She just started VT a couple of weeks ago. She has some visual processing issues, convergence insufficiency and more. They will be doing some metronome work and right now she's working on tracking. They seem to always employ some multi sensory work with each visit. She failed the Barton pre test (later squeaked by) last year and I've suspected more than just vision so I took her through the schools, and then privately when I wasn't happy with their testing. So in the last 4 months she's had the WJ, WIAT, CTOPP and Test of Written Spelling and some other shorter assessments.

 

 

Her scores are a bit of conundrum. It seems that her basic phonological skills are in tact, she scored very well on the CTOPP in awareness and memory, however the Rapid Symbolic Naming portion was in the 16th percentile both with numbers and digits. Grade equivalent being 1.7 It would seem then, that the reason she scored poorly on Barton was her working memory issues? Part C was really hard. Granted that was over 6 months ago so maturity I'm sure plays a part and being more comfortable with testing. I am thinking that for her now, it's been a combination of poor working memory and her vision issues that have barred her from obtaining reading fluency. It's a choppy mess where she skips words, inverts beginning and end etc. Her CTOPP tells me it's not dyslexia.

 

What's surprising, though perhaps not, is that her scores indicate dysgraphia, which I honestly never considered. She writes well imo, not quickly, but I guess Ive nothing to compare it to. The psych thought that perhaps since all we've done is copywork, and I've never asked her to free write during school, that this would be why she scored poorly. She also has issues with reversals such that she has to think really hard to make them properly and that slows her down. I didn't realize that letter writing isn't totally automatic. Her spelling is very poor, even pretty typical sight words she can read.

 

The psych was hesitant to label her with SLD writing. Thinking that perhaps with focused practice, she would be fine by year's end. I'm only concerned about a label so much that we always need to have public school on the table, and if she needs accommodations down the road like more time and such, I want her to have that.

 

I guess my question now is what do I do? One SLP suggest an OG tutoring, which we can't afford with VT too. Would that be sufficient to help her with spelling? Will VT likely be all she needs to catch up? What spelling program should we do? What writing program? Does this mean we don't need Barton? I have level 1 here. I have a child reading in a mid second grade/late first grade level, should I still be doing a reading program?

 

I went into this wanting to know whether she has dyslexia or not and man now that it seems she doesn't, I'm even more unsure of what to do!

Edited August 17, 2016 by Joyful Journeys

[Joyful Journeys]

 

My 6 year old DD was flagged for ADHD last month. They suggested meds. We declined thanks to my husband and some advice here. I wasn't opposed to trying it, as she clearly struggles and I feel she isn't living up to her full potential. We had an OT eval and turns out she has Moro and ATNR retained. The symptoms of both describe her to a T, I'm floored at how she ticks off every box almost in some way or another. I'm not sure we can swing OT for her, with everything else, so are their resources available for me to do this at home? Or is this something I really just have to outsource? I just started a business at home, and a big part of doing it is so I can afford everyone's therapy, but it will be some time before that is profitable. As far as school goes, her attention span is so short, I'm not sure where to start. She will happily do reading eggs and math seeds online and she seems to be retaining information. I feel like that combined with good read alouds (whether she pays attention or not) and working on her grip somehow with copywork ( I was going to try HWT) will be enough for 1st? I'm just not sure how to get her reading on her own, I would love the structure of a program, but the things I'm familiar with seem very teacher intensive, and I'm terrified of dropping the ball with something like AAR.

[Lecka]

I am giving a quick response.

 

There is dyslexia with phonemic awareness, and then there is dyslexia with "rapid naming" or "RAN/RAS."

 

I don't know if CTOPP measures the second one.

 

I have an impression that Barton is still an option for the second one. But then there are more options too. And, I am not sure.

 

But if it is that the rapid naming is an issue but not phonemic awareness, I think that would still be under dyslexia but then you are targeting that in some ways.

[Joyful Journeys]

I am giving a quick response.

 

There is dyslexia with phonemic awareness, and then there is dyslexia with "rapid naming" or "RAN/RAS."

 

I don't know if CTOPP measures the second one.

 

I have an impression that Barton is still an option for the second one. But then there are more options too. And, I am not sure.

 

But if it is that the rapid naming is an issue but not phonemic awareness, I think that would still be under dyslexia but then you are targeting that in some ways.

 

Well you have just totally blown my mind.  :laugh:

 

On the test, in the section for Rapid Symbolic Naming, those were to two subtests she scored below average on, classifying a "normative weakness". I've not had a chance to talk to the psych that did this one, she was out of town due to a death in the family at our follow up. So I just have the raw scores.

[Kat w]

Hi :) I have 2 kkds also with issues and it is hard to keep straight. That's a good idea to have it separate but in the same thread.

I should have done thst too. Great idea.

Ok, I'm going g to comment in segments, as I read on the issues and results.

 

On the dysgraphia . dysgraphia is more than just handwriting, it's ,as explained to me many times lol, is also, the ability to get thoughts /numbers/words/sentences from their brain...to paper. Usually with dysgraphia there will also be not great handwriting due to the motor planning it takes to manage, thought, writing, and the forearm strength/coordination...to get it to paper *then*make it smooth and legible at the same time.

So what the pshyc is saying there, makes sense. And usually why dysgraphia is DX later BC they don't start to move past copy work to original thouths, rewriting math problems til 3rd and 4 th grade.

 

That's why so many parents are floored in 3rd and 4th grade when DC dx with dysgraphia 'all of a sudden'. It's not all of a sudden ir a misdiagnose, it's that ir doesn't surface til then. Those skills aren't employed until then.

 

We have it too. We knew way early tho BC their handwriting was atrocious lol :)

[Kat w]

We need VT too. Have that on the books for month and half away.

 

We have the same track as you with Barton, failed all the first time, then only C.

 

I emailed Susan and she said focus heavy on language , so we did and have had great improvements ( haven't retaken the Barton test yet tho)

 

My son is dyslexic . severely so it shows up more. Dyslexics thst aren't as severe as oues sometimes has harder time showing up OR the pshycs interpretation of the evals. That's important to remember , all of these tests, the pschy is interpreting . we took our scores to the school pschy once (minus the private NP findings) and she had a different take on the tests.

 

The part where you mention she is flip flopping end to beginning and vise versa, and the reversals, *are classic dyslexia* . if you the mom suspects dylexia, I wouldn't necessarily let an NP tell you it's not .

 

The radip fire on phonograms and numbers....THAT is where your true picture of wm will show up.

 

If you notice...in your fist description of the first DC you explain....there's a running theme of, when she can take her time, intimed test etc. She dies better.

When she is timed or the rapid fire portion.

That's where you are seeing the deficits . * that* is where wm will show up the most.

 

Sorry, DS 20 just came in. Be back in a bit :)

Edited August 17, 2016 by Kat w

[Kat w]

Real quick tho, you guys are in ps right? I say that cuz you mentioned IEP for extra time on papers, tests etc.

 

Your in ps, not homeschooling right ?

[OneStepAtATime]

O.k. I'm sure you don't want to have a suggestion for more evaluations but have you had them checked for Auditory Processing issues?  That can sometimes show up in Part C of Barton.  An audiologist can do a preliminary screening to see if more in depth testing is needed.

 

As for where to start, I would give them the Barton screening again.  If either fails Part C this time around you might look at Foundations in Sound.  They may be struggling with Auditory Discrimination or Auditory Memory.  That would need to be addressed so they could move on to learning to read effectively.

[Joyful Journeys]

Hi :) I have 2 kkds also with issues and it is hard to keep straight. That's a good idea to have it separate but in the same thread.

I should have done thst too. Great idea.

Ok, I'm going g to comment in segments, as I read on the issues and results.

 

On the dysgraphia . dysgraphia is more than just handwriting, it's ,as explained to me many times lol, is also, the ability to get thoughts /numbers/words/sentences from their brain...to paper. Usually with dysgraphia there will also be not great handwriting due to the motor planning it takes to manage, thought, writing, and the forearm strength/coordination...to get it to paper *then*make it smooth and legible at the same time.

So what the pshyc is saying there, makes sense. And usually why dysgraphia is DX later BC they don't start to move past copy work to original thouths, rewriting math problems til 3rd and 4 th grade.

 

That's why so many parents are floored in 3rd and 4th grade when DC dx with dysgraphia 'all of a sudden'. It's not all of a sudden ir a misdiagnose, it's that ir doesn't surface til then. Those skills aren't employed until then.

 

We have it too. We knew way early tho BC their handwriting was atrocious lol :)

 

Aside from the reversals, I'd say her handwriting is quite nice. What you're saying makes sense though! I wonder how else I can tease this out at home.

[Joyful Journeys]

We need VT too. Have that on the books for month and half away.

 

We have the same track as you with Barton, failed all the first time, then only C.

 

I emailed Susan and she said focus heavy on language , so we did and have had great improvements ( haven't retaken the Barton test yet tho)

 

My son is dyslexic . severely so it shows up more. Dyslexics thst aren't as severe as oues sometimes has harder time showing up OR the pshycs interpretation of the evals. That's important to remember , all of these tests, the pschy is interpreting . we took our scores to the school pschy once (minus the private NP findings) and she had a different take on the tests.

 

The part where you mention she is flip flopping end to beginning and vise versa, and the reversals, *are classic dyslexia* . if you the mom suspects dylexia, I wouldn't necessarily let an NP tell you it's not .

 

The radip fire on phonograms and numbers....THAT is where your true picture of wm will show up.

 

If you notice...in your fist description of the first DC you explain....there's a running theme of, when she can take her time, intimed test etc. She dies better.

When she is timed or the rapid fire portion.

That's where you are seeing the deficits . * that* is where wm will show up the most.

 

Sorry, DS 20 just came in. Be back in a bit :)

 

Yes, so much of what she does is classic. Especially not being able to segment words well. Like take a chunk of a word off and move it to the end or, eliminate a sound and tell me what's left. 

 

Real quick tho, you guys are in ps right? I say that cuz you mentioned IEP for extra time on papers, tests etc.

 

Your in ps, not homeschooling right ?

 

Homeschool! I just know that since we move a lot, and right now DS3 is giving me a very hard time (autism eval next week), I may need to put them in PS. I'm beginning to reach the limit of what I can take and I don't have support from my husband to HS and with all these issues I sorely need it. 

 

O.k. I'm sure you don't want to have a suggestion for more evaluations but have you had them checked for Auditory Processing issues?  That can sometimes show up in Part C of Barton.  An audiologist can do a preliminary screening to see if more in depth testing is needed.

 

As for where to start, I would give them the Barton screening again.  If either fails Part C this time around you might look at Foundations in Sound.  They may be struggling with Auditory Discrimination or Auditory Memory.  That would need to be addressed so they could move on to learning to read effectively.

 

 

That's the last box to check! I was hoping that all of these tests would be pretty clear so I could avoid it. DD6 definitely needs it done in the spring when she is 7, but now I wonder about DD8. I'll give them screening again in the morning. I appreciate the recommendation, my main question is what to in fact DO now. I can't just look at 3rd grade curric and throw it at her, and I don't know how to fill in the gaps when on the surface she would skate by totally fine. 

Edited August 17, 2016 by Joyful Journeys

[Kat w]

With what one-step is saying about possible APD testing , when I first read about the first DC, there seems to me, to be a discrepancy about the wm issue.

Has she scored in past with wm issues?

 

Because , it could be like onestep said. APD -audiroty processing getting in the way.

Honestly tho, what your describing dies not scream APD. That doesn't mean there aren't some processing g issues tho.

 

What one-step is saying is what I saw too.

The discrepancy between her untimed scores, vs, rapid fire scores.

BUT, this is also where small or slight wm issues will cause the discrepancy .

 

Have you been told she has wm trouble in the past?

 

To get her IEP. Yes, you are going to want that . in fact, you're going to *need* that. Esp for the younger grades.

 

I would take the test scores, minus the np's fundings into the school pshyc . not the school counselor (which they try to give you alot, BC time with school pshyc costs more for *them*)

Not with the spec ed teacher, tho, scheduling a meeting, those people will be there also, you have to stress and mKe sure you tell them you *also* need the school pshyc present at the meeting.

 

You want an IEP. Don't let them try to tell you she doesn't qualify.

 

On the SLP issue. I would want a DX for thst too. It will be beneficial public and private .

 

On teasing out the dysgraphia part at home.....still typing

Edited August 17, 2016 by Kat w

[Kat w]

There's a few things I'd do and have done here and has helped alot .

 

Start with a white board. It's fun, pretty colors lol, easy to glide, ( BC when she starts taking more difficult tasts to 'paper' it's going to get more difficult and where the nice glide of the whiteboard helps. Kids love whiteboards too lol)

 

I would start with dictation. This is where you'll see possible dyslexic issues rear themselves .

 

I would first use it as a home evaluation tool. See where she is, how she does, where the biggest problem is.

 

I would then show her lateral math problems (written) have her copy them down vertically on her whiteboard. Dysgraphia and dyslexiia will surface here.

 

Lastly, ID ask her to write a sentence about what she likes most about say...p.e. Or, going to the beach, whatever she likes...and ask the...what do you like most about it, ir what was your favorite part . that is important BC it takes the pressure off of a more complex thinking process. You're trying here to take the lc as much as possible out of the equation.

 

What she likes most about...blank. And see how she does, if she can do it and do it well.

 

Thst is a good tool to see where she is, and what needs to happen.teased out at home.

 

Start there. I promise, this will give you a more detailed picture if what and where you need to start to work on at home.

 

Depending on how she does, from there you come up with a home plan.

Edited August 17, 2016 by Kat w

[Kat w]

And take notes along the way...start a notebook. Record here what and how she did on each thing.

 

It gives you a good detailed 'findungs' at home to go back and look at /analyze later to come up with a home plan to tease out and improve .

[Joyful Journeys]

With what one-step is saying about possible APD testing , when I first read about the first DC, there seems to me, to be a discrepancy about the wm issue.

Has she scored in past with wm issues?

 

Because , it could be like onestep said. APD -audiroty processing getting in the way.

Honestly tho, what your describing dies not scream APD. That doesn't mean there aren't some processing g issues tho.

 

What one-step is saying is what I saw too.

The discrepancy between her untimed scores, vs, rapid fire scores.

BUT, this is also where small or slight wm issues will cause the discrepancy .

 

Have you been told she has wm trouble in the past?

 

To get her IEP. Yes, you are going to want that . in fact, you're going to *need* that. Esp for the younger grades.

 

I would take the test scores, minus the np's fundings into the school pshyc . not the school counselor (which they try to give you alot, BC time with school pshyc costs more for *them*)

Not with the spec ed teacher, tho, scheduling a meeting, those people will be there also, you have to stress and mKe sure you tell them you *also* need the school pshyc present at the meeting.

 

You want an IEP. Don't let them try to tell you she doesn't qualify.

 

On the SLP issue. I would want a DX for thst too. It will be beneficial public and private .

 

On reading out the dysgraphia part at home.....still typing

I've suspected working memory issues after the Barton pretest tripping her up. Manipulating the tiles while keeping the sound in her mind, it was painful to watch the first time. The VT ran a couple tests too and on one she did fine and the other she very poorly. Combined with the below avg working memory subtest score in the WIAT, it seems to follow that's her issue. The school Pysch (I used them since they were free first) did not run the working memory subtests from the Woodcock Johnson, despite the fact that I explicitly asked for that to be tested. Those scores showed a clear discrepancy between IQ and achievements, all reading/writing was low but again, she chalked it up to her not having exposure and wouldn't give her a SLD dx, she has no IEP. So I'd have to come back to them with my private results to start this process all over if we ever decide to enroll.

Edited August 17, 2016 by Joyful Journeys

[Kat w]

Oh...ok..I see. You're wanting to have things in place for any possible enrollment in ps.

 

That's smart. I think I gotchya now.

So, your homeschooling ...and would be using the therapies of the public school where sch qualifies...is that right?

 

Alot of homeschoolers, use the services at the local PS here.

 

Yes, I think it's wm issue.

 

We have it all here and lots of testing and therapies .

 

It says wm to me. Not processing, tho often times they'll go hand in hand.

But here, I see wm being the issue.

 

There are so many fun things you can do at home to improve wm, that's good news :)

 

My personal opinion is, homeschooling is going to be better and funner (I know not a word lol. It's fun tho) to homeschool them. Work out and on the issues they have.

 

If you need to use the therapists at the school, do it.

We have had better therapies private, I know you said you're that route too, but PS at times and seasons of life, has ita place, provided there are good school therapist. They are not created equally lol.

 

If your not enrolled in ps and not interested in using their therapist . I would leave them out of the equation.

 

If you want to use their therapist or see if there's potential there, if you like the therapist, if she has a good rep in the county, then it's worth exploring .

 

It won't hurt to have an initial meeting with them and see what they say, if you like the therapist , the therapist should be there at the meeting. Ita pretty standard but doesn't mean it always happens.

 

Anyone you want to be sure would be at that meeting. You have to make sure you request when scheduling the meeting.

 

That said, unless you want to use their SLP. I wouldn't schedule a meeting.

 

And you might want to wait until you try the whiteboard things with her...to make your decision .

 

Ita tricky . multiply that times 2 kids...gets even trickier lol.

 

I have that here too, and sometimes I mix up my own kids on what they need and who has what and how sever it is!lol

[Joyful Journeys]

As homeschoolers we have no acces to school therapists.

 

We will stay home this year while she goes through VT. For dd6, Lord willing I can get her some OT too. DS3 goes to public special Ed prek right now which gives us a couple hours of quiet time a day to do schoolwork. I need that to be effective, planned and easy to execute with my now toddler running around.

 

I think we can definitely attack WM at home. Thank goodness for that. Plus the metronome at the VT should help I think? In on exercise she had to look at a B, hold up her left hand in the shape of a b, then pick up a ball and throw it at the B on the wall. There was a D there too, as well as P and Q, so they went back and forth at random. I thought that was pretty genius.

 

Dancing Bears looks promising, I'm going to do those placement tests for both of them tomorrow too.

[Kat w]

Yes, I've heard from moms about some pretty ingenious things dancing bears offers. Their kids did really good with the program .

I haven't used it.

 

So, I understand , does your state not offer homeschooler use of the PS therapists?

 

I always get it confused on how the federal law (trumps state) goes.

 

I'm thinking, under the *federal monies * the ps's get, we as homeschoolers are allowed therapies through the PS .

 

OhE knows , she can keep that straight . I mix up which way it goes.

 

I'm going to read about the second dc now.

 

I really encourage you to try the whiteboard thing. It hones In on and targets much. And can give you a really specialized attack to help that kiddo.

I'm thinking tho, the therapies fall under federal and you can use them, again , that's one that I mix up which way it goes .

 

Gonna read second now.

Edited August 17, 2016 by Kat w

[Joyful Journeys]

Yes, I've heard from moms about some pretty ingenious things dancing bears offers. Their kids did really good with the program .

I haven't used it.

 

So, I understand , does your state not offer homeschooler use of the PS therapists?

 

I always get it confused on how the federal law (trumps state) goes.

 

I'm thinking, under the *federal monies * the ps's get, we as homeschoolers are allowed therapies through the PS .

 

OhE knows , she can keep that straight . I mix up which way it goes.

 

I'm going to read about the second dc now.

 

I really encourage you to try the whiteboard thing. It hones In on and targets much. And can give you a really specialized attack to help that kiddo.

I'm thinking tho, the therapies fall under federal and you can use them, again , that's one that I mix up which way it goes .

 

Gonna read second now.

 

Resources are divided among the counties and then among each school and then to each child. If and only if there are resources left over for homeschoolers to tap into, they can. There is not enough even for the kids enrolled, so no, we do not have access to therapy. We were able to have her tested for free under federal law, IDEA, but there is no federal mandate for schools to then offer services to students not enrolled. In our state, we are considered under the same umbrella as private schools. 

 

I will ask her to write a sentence :) The switching of the math problems, intrigues me too. With Singapore we almost always write it laterally unless we are doing the standard algorithm on purpose for a lesson. She does well in math, so long as it isn't timed. Timed things yes, tear her apart and bring her to tears.

[Kat w]

OhE,....calling OhE here! Ha-ha :)

 

When reading about the second dc, OT is going to be essential here IMO.

 

This brings us deeper into how the federal law reads ( States try to tell homeschoolers all the time, u dibt qualify BC you homeschool.)

But, I think the federal law reads, we get to use their services under the federal moneies all PS get. I could be wrong BC I mix the 2 up.

 

But here's what happens.

 

For a child labeled SN through the PS , and the label comes based on therapy needed. Get one therapy through PS and that child will fall under *their * classification of SN because....thats how they get federal moneies .

 

It's all politics .

So say you are * enrolled * in ps and receive just 1 therapy . that attaches an SN *label* loosley termed....to qualify for more federal money.

 

The difference in what they get fir nt kids and SN kids is literally HUGE.

O forget the exact #'s and I'm sure they've changed (gone up) since I last checked .

 

But an example would be....

My DC the PS gets 300.$ per child.

The SN child the PS receives 1200.$

 

Thats a huge jump in money .

 

That's why they want you enrolled and will tell you they have to be enrolled.

 

The important part here is this:

For every homeschooler that receives therapies the PS doesn't get that 1200. Ticket price for the homeschool child BC they aren't enrolled .

BUT , the federal monies they receive from the feds...

Allow us use of those services .

 

Why: because it's OUR rax dollars paying for it . every homeschooler alive, saves the PS big dollars.

They STILL get the tax money from we taxpayers. But, we aren't using their recourses so that is a huge savings for the PS.

 

Our tax dollars are paid into it, and divied uo between the PS.

Our not being enrolled, gives them our tax dollar money..toward the kids that ARE enrolled.

 

I'm thinking more and more as I talk and memory coming back about it.

That you are entitled to therapies under FEDERAL law. Again, deds Trump state.

They will sho homeschoolers the state law....they count in the fact that the homeschooler won't know...the FEDERAL law, and that it trumps state.

 

OhE needs to chime in here and clarify what you get under federal and state doesn't matter.

 

Thwy write aws all the time that contradict federal hoping they wint be called on it by the gen pop.

 

OhE , OhE...where for art tho OhE lol.

:) humor. Gotta have it when we have lil sweetpea like ours :)

[Kat w]

Resources are divided among the counties and then among each school and then to each child. If and only if there are resources left over for homeschoolers to tap into, they can. There is not enough even for the kids enrolled, so no, we do not have access to therapy. We were able to have her tested for free under federal law, IDEA, but there is no federal mandate for schools to then offer services to students not enrolled. In our state, we are considered under the same umbrella as private schools.

 

I will ask her to write a sentence :) The switching of the math problems, intrigues me too. With Singapore we almost always write it laterally unless we are doing the standard algorithm on purpose for a lesson. She does well in math, so long as it isn't timed. Timed things yes, tear her apart and bring her to tears.

That's I'm sure right and where I always get it confused.

It's the testing we are entitled to and maybe not the therapies.

You I'm sure just clarified that for me.

 

You're using Singapore thata awesome.

My severly SN guys thrive under it BC ist systematic and incredmtal .

That's awesome and so beneficial for the SN child.

 

Yea, going from lateral to vertical can show discrepancies .

My dysgraphia, dyscalcula guys couldn't do it for the longest time.

[Kat w]

.

 

And yes, on the timed thing vs untimed is where wm comes into play. That's way better than it being a processing issue. Those are harder to correct.

 

K. Gonna finish reading the second child :)

[Kat w]

Before I move onto the second dc.

 

You asked about what spelling and/or writing program.

 

Here's what we use with the best success. And we've tried alot.

 

WWE (writing with ease) starts out small and incremental like Singapore does , and builds on that .

WWE (I know you're probably talking g handwriting too, I'll address that in a sec. )

WWE starts the budding writer with excerpts from classics like Alice in wonderland , Pinocchio etc. And has the mom asked questions that target what needs to be elicited from the child to targed correct details and answer in complete sentences , which is important to become a good writer, speaker and AIDS in language , having to have a noun/subject, then , adjectives adverbs etc.

WWE kills alot of birds with one stone.

I have my boys now , when they answer in complete sentences, to write them.

When they are finished with the scripted questions (and answers were looking for, thsts important for moms to have the answers we want them to give)

 

I now have them write their in complete sentences answers on paper as we go, giving them time to formulate in their heads what and how to say it.

 

When they're done...that have built and amazing summary. Which is where writing starts. Learning the summary.

 

Having them write wtheir answers will show you where their weaknesses are.

 

At first, I only praise for good complete sentences.

 

After a few summaries. We start to read them back to me, and let them where they can find the things that don'take sence or letter reversals and the like.

 

We then correct them together and I throw them the proverbial life vest in correcting them so not to frustrate them but also, to teach them. We don want them repeatedly doing it wrong BC that will cement errors instead if good work.

 

Handwriting. .

 

May sound goofy but was spot on and so much fun for my boys .

The draw write now books. They have a picture in the top half of page, then a caption about the pic on the bottom half.

We read the caption. Talk about the pic, how cool it is, what they could do instead (this is almost like a picture suary an gets is important for reading comprehension and analysis they will be doing in later grades. )

 

We read, talk about the pic. Then put tracing paper over the entire page and they trace the letters, paying ATTN to good handwriting form and neatness. Then we trace the pic and color it in with colored pencils.

 

It helps aslo doing the pic BC...adding details to a picture is prewriting skills.

 

The more details they put in their pics, the more and correct details with will later put in their writing.

 

Drawing pics and filling it in with details. Is the first step to

Learning to write and write well.

 

College is all writing, besides math, it's important , to start and build those skills slowly now.

Pics and WWE teaching how to answer , for the correct details, lays the foundation for the child to use adjectives, adverbs, prepotional phrases, etc to their writing.

 

The red bird they colored is teaching...using the red bird later.

 

For SN kiddos, these details can be greatly lacking. Esp and they grow and the pull from their nt peers becomes more apparent.

 

SN kids, writing can be a big trip up.

Draw write now books did the trick for us. The pics being as important as the text.

Then they have a beautiful finished product to hang and share and study. They will look at it and the details I'm the pic.

 

I post their wwe summaries too. They will go back and look at them and reread them, which is great fun practice for well constructed , correct detail sentences.

 

We've all had our kids wrie something and thwy have a ton of unimportant details....ir..a basic 3 sentence summary that doesn't summarize the text.

 

WWE pulls our the * Correct * details. And makes a paragraph when done.

 

It's teaching them to write and write well.

 

Spelling, after they've mastered or at least gotten better with wwe. I would start to correct spelling.

Add it to a spelling list and practice those words. Sometimes you find the phonogram memory trouble their having and can use letter tiles to help practice/cement that .

 

Gonna eat dinner. , I'll read your second lil guy afer I eat :)

Edited August 17, 2016 by Kat w

[Heathermomster]

Did the COVD indicate how long she would need VT?

 

If you cannot afford OT, check out these beginner and intermediate e-books which are $9.99 a piece.  My family's OT copay is twice the cost of the books purchased together.  The books come with posters demonstrating prim reflex integration exercises.  I would name the exercises DS performed but it seems S'cool Moves took their posters down.  You want the kids to perform crossbody and balance exercises too.  Both of my kids used an elliptical for 5+ minutes when they were in OT and PT.  Youtube has videos of integration exercises as well.  Both of my children worked with an OT and Ped PT twice weekly for a total of about 10 weeks.  They performed daily exercise at home.  We built the routines into our daily life and just did it!  Make it fun and the exercise won't last forever.

 

As far as failing Part C of the Barton Pre-test....I would just follow Barton's recommendations.  Maybe call her and ask about implementing the program that Onestep mentioned.

 

It kinda stinks when your child is 2e.  Son's last NP swore that she had worked with gifteds before but when we spoke more in depth about it, she was clueless.  Thankfully, she agreed with son's two previous NP reports.

 

There are exercises that you can perform with your kids to increase their RAN/RAS numbers.  You may want to wait on that until she has had some VT though.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Heathermomster

[Kat w]

Oh. And if you have Barton level 1, it wouldn't hurt to try and see how it goes.

 

I've heard moms usin Barton and dancing bears together.

You may decide to go with Barton long term ,or dancing bears.

It gives you exposure to both and see how your DC and you like, respond , and just do overall do better with.

[Kat w]

On your second dc,I would do what heathermomster posted. Those are good. We've done them at PS, private, and home therapies and it works great. :)

 

On the ADHD. I used to be anti meds.

Until the PS pressed the issue, they told me, he did not fall under the category of medicating so the teacher can deal with behavior, but he needed to fir focusing and attention to school.

 

They said it was pitiful to watch him needlessly struggle .

This hit home for me. It was an area I told my dh, we are getting it, and you're going to have to just deal with it.

My guy was old when we started, in comparison to when he actually needed it.

He needed it to absorb school. To be able to focus, remember, understand.

 

There are ALOT of good meds on the market and not of the same class as the old school Ritalin route.

 

We take vyvanse for ADHD I'm the morning. Then intuniv at nite for other things.

The 2 work in unison beautiful lly for my guy.

 

Sometimes, we need to as parents, get over that hump and help our lil kiddos out.

The vyvanse doesn't have the Ritalin type of issues.

 

Ita worth investigating and talking to your pediatrician about.

The school was right. He struggled needlessly. He had other issues we needed to work on like your guy...ot and we had other things.

 

So to take the trouble and frustration and just feeling like they can never achieve their goals

.... We chose to try the med. And it worked. He could do things he wasn't able to before.

 

I know, meds can be and are a big issue. I never thought I'd put my kids in meds.

Sometimes , esp with what's on the market today, we just need to throw em a lifeline.

 

I'm sure your dh is thinking like mine was, thinking of the older classes of meds.

It ain't your mamas ADHD meds anymore lol

[Kat w]

Did I understand you right that your second dc has APD or some sort of processing trouble ?

[Joyful Journeys]

Did the COVD indicate how long she would need VT?

 

If you cannot afford OT, check out these beginner and intermediate e-books which are $9.99 a piece. My family's OT copay is twice the cost of the books purchased together. The books come with posters demonstrating prim reflex integration exercises. I would name the exercises DS performed but it seems S'cool Moves took their posters down. You want the kids to perform crossbody and balance exercises too. Both of my kids used an elliptical for 5+ minutes when they were in OT and PT. Youtube has videos of integration exercises as well. Both of my children worked with an OT and Ped PT twice weekly for a total of about 10 weeks. They performed daily exercise at home. We built the routines into our daily life and just did it! Make it fun and the exercise won't last forever.

 

As far as failing Part C of the Barton Pre-test....I would just follow Barton's recommendations. Maybe call her and ask about implementing the program that Onestep mentioned.

 

It kinda stinks when your child is 2e. Son's last NP swore that she had worked with gifteds before but when we spoke more in depth about it, she was clueless. Thankfully, she agreed with son's two previous NP reports.

 

There are exercises that you can perform with your kids to increase their RAN/RAS numbers. You may want to wait on that until she has had some VT though.

Thank you!

 

 

VT thinks about 6 months. We will see where she is at 3 though and reassess.

 

I'm going to do the test again now that's it's been a while to see if there is any change. She wouldn't get the sounds wrong, just forget them kwim? Barton is so expensive too and dependent on me doing it well. I'm just so overwhelmed. But since I have it its worth a shot. I guess it'll be pretty evident early on if it's a waste of time.

 

With OT, I will definitely get those books, simply because all 3 of them need therapy and copays add up crazy fast :( The OT was so nice too, I know DD would enjoy it, sigh.

[Joyful Journeys]

On your second dc,I would do what heathermomster posted. Those are good. We've done them at PS, private, and home therapies and it works great. :)

 

On the ADHD. I used to be anti meds.

Until the PS pressed the issue, they told me, he did not fall under the category of medicating so the teacher can deal with behavior, but he needed to fir focusing and attention to school.

 

They said it was pitiful to watch him needlessly struggle .

This hit home for me. It was an area I told my dh, we are getting it, and you're going to have to just deal with it.

My guy was old when we started, in comparison to when he actually needed it.

He needed it to absorb school. To be able to focus, remember, understand.

 

There are ALOT of good meds on the market and not of the same class as the old school Ritalin route.

 

We take vyvanse for ADHD I'm the morning. Then intuniv at nite for other things.

The 2 work in unison beautiful lly for my guy.

 

Sometimes, we need to as parents, get over that hump and help our lil kiddos out.

The vyvanse doesn't have the Ritalin type of issues.

 

Ita worth investigating and talking to your pediatrician about.

The school was right. He struggled needlessly. He had other issues we needed to work on like your guy...ot and we had other things.

 

So to take the trouble and frustration and just feeling like they can never achieve their goals

.... We chose to try the med. And it worked. He could do things he wasn't able to before.

 

I know, meds can be and are a big issue. I never thought I'd put my kids in meds.

Sometimes , esp with what's on the market today, we just need to throw em a lifeline.

 

I'm sure your dh is thinking like mine was, thinking of the older classes of meds.

It ain't your mamas ADHD meds anymore lol

Preaching to the choir! My mom has ADD. She told me straight up my dd needs it..yesterday lol. That a whole world could open for her. But I won't do it without exhausting all possibilities first. If reflex work and some supplements and modifications can help, we'll do that until it's no longer enough. Then I can come back to DH and say LOOK at her, struggling still with these specific things. She's only 6 so, I also have the she's just young thing in my head.

 

She had a speech delay as a child and since she has never had her hearing fully checked, I want to make sure all is well there. Her speech tests within normal limits now.

[Kat w]

I hear ya mama. I'm right there with ya.

I missed that she's 6 . that is young. My guy I believe was about 9ish. And we had years of the PS tellin us...he needs help :/

 

Medicatiting is a very difficult decision . I'm not a fan , sigh, but we came to a point, had to.

 

We did the exact same thing you're doing. Exhausted alleans possible. Therapies ect.

When we reached the end if the road and still had issue with it...thata when I did what I did. Told him. Deal with it dude lol.

 

I'm in the same boat with my recently 10 yo.

The last np we say uncovered sever APD, like. Makes my heart sad how low/severe it is. ;(

 

She suggested add med to improve focus and retention.

Sigh . I am very sure she is right. I've got to get there in my head and heart first. And be SURE we need it.

 

Sucks lol. I had never hear of giving add meds fir APD. But it's pretty severe and since ...I've noticed a couple moms mention it in passing.

 

I'm going to just have to get on board I suppose . it's a lil sad how he doesn't 'get'so much.

 

Funny, this time it's in the reverse with hubby and me.

He wants to and I'm like...noooo! Lol. Ugh.

Maybe I'll just let dad take him and get it .

So hard. So so hard. :/

Edited August 17, 2016 by Kat w

[Kat w]

You're right to get the hearing checked too .

 

You're doing good balancing all those balls.

 

It's hard with 2 of them having issues isn't it?

 

I'm going to start new notebooks.

One for each child. My current one had 2 sections one for each.child.

I just need to do one for each. Ita to easy to swip swap sections and get it mixed up.

[PeterPan]

If her CTOPP scores are reflecting aggressive intervention but you never gave similar intervention for the RAN/RAS, then that would explain why they seem overall reasonable (average) but still have the low RAN/RAS.  With my ds, I did RAN/RAS exercises with colors and some digits but not letters.  The CTOPP tests RAN/RAS multiple ways, including letters, so the letters score was low and the numbers (which we had worked on) was fine.  Makes sense.

 

So you always are looking to interpret results in the light of what has been done.  

 

Is there money on the line here or your peace of mind?  A school IEP is given because services are needed, and you can have a diagnosis and NOT get an IEP for that as the disabling condition.  So you'll find plenty of mention online of dyslexics who do NOT qualify for IEPs because their interventions bring them up above the threshold for qualifying.

 

So the real question is what you need done.  Since you own Barton, use it.  Since the RAN/RAS is low, work on it.  I agree with the advice to redo the placement test and to do first what the placement test indicates.

 

SLDs are an unfolding process, sure, but it's also true that not everything that is crunchy gets them.  My dd is crunchy because she has ADHD, but she DOESN'T cross over to SLDs.  And that's a degree that you might only appreciate once your next dc *does* get the SLD labels.  So reading, writing, math can call be crunchy and not get  you the SLD label.  

 

So does it matter or change something getting it?  If it does, then it's something to keep tabs on and figure out how to advocate for.  If it doesn't get her something (disability scholarship from the state, whatever), then maybe it's something you roll with.

 

I think it's tacky for someone to say the problems are due to lack of instruction.  In the school they could be compelled to fit RTI into the IEP timeline.  I think the retort is to come back showing the interventions you did.  List the curricula, etc.  

 

I say all that, and honestly my ds got his SLD writing label at age 6 in the ps.  If they were seeing it, they might go ahead and label it.  It really might be that it's crunchy but not going to push over.  I can't say for sure.  I can tell you that the difference between crunchy and SLD, in our house, is reflected in the degree of "Oh my you just really DON'T UNDERSTAND why this REALLY IS NOT WORKING" kwim?  Crunchy vs. just extremely not working.  And we've had tutors working with ds all summer.  The one bravely says oh I have him writing a sentence to go with that worksheet.  I'm like you go girl, give it the college try.   :lol:   Now at the end of the summer, she's like I tried, but that is just SO hard for him, so horrible, bogs him down so much.  I said honey, that's why he's got an SLD writing label.  ;)  So she's over her vanity and we're going to typing and tracing.  Cuz life is too short.  

 

I lost why we were talking OT.  If you have retained reflexes (you said Moro, etc., yes?), yes get them treated.  I like the accountability of having appts, but I don't have an exceptionally strong feeling on how frequent those need to be.  It's more finding somebody you think is worth the time/money.

 

Ok, you know me, now I'm thinking it's time to ask what you AREN'T yet asking that you need to ask...  I'll come back to this thread in a bit maybe.  We had a wild day and I'm tucking people in.  Let me stew on it.  Once you say ADHD plus crunchy kid, it's a really interesting discussion.  It's really easy to think about what's NOT working and not about what IS.  It's easy to overlook things you can do structurally to make things go better.

 

And how low were those CTOPP scores?  Trust but verify.

[Heathermomster]

If ASD is diagnosed, you will need an OT. Maybe with a diagnosis, insurance will provide coverage?

 

About the dysgraphia diagnosis, my DS was identified on his 8 th birthday. He could not complete copywork in a timely fashion, especially when jotting things down written on a white or chalk board. DS has always been clever about writing little stories, and his 1st grade journal is adorable. Spelling was off the chain but cute. Assigned writing and sequencing issues were the problem.

 

Was the tester even qualified to diagnose? Did you mention the WISC and I missed it? Eta: Discrepancies with the subtest scores can paint quite a picture. How was processing speed?

Edited August 18, 2016 by Heathermomster

[Kat w]

There's our all known a well loved OhE input. :)

 

It's why I used my corny...Shakespeare reference to...calling our OhE haha :)

[Kat w]

Heathermomster , I think the same thing. The test administrator wasn't may e qualified.

 

That's all classic dysgraphia at a minimum.

The dysgraphia as a whole wasn't explained. It's more than messy handwriting.

 

Mama was right to come here :)

[Heathermomster]

There's our all known a well loved OhE input. :)

 

It's why I used my corny...Shakespeare reference to...calling our OhE haha :)

I know... I love how she described the vanity of the provider too. Edited August 18, 2016 by Heathermomster

[PeterPan]

I'm trying to reread to find what your questions were.  What interventions did you do before the CTOPP?  Did you google for explanations for low RAN/RAS?  That really is wicked low.  What was her processing speed.  I think it would be good to get an explanation for that wicked low RAN/RAS. You can intervene, but why was it low and what else does it reflect?

 

If a rising 3rd grader is reading at a 1st grade level, despite reasonable instruction, remind me why she's not getting a dyslexia label?  You said her CTOPP scores tell you it's not dyslexia.

 

 

 

I think her vision problems could explain her spelling and the reading errors.  In fact, if her CTOPP scores are where you'd expect them to be but the actual reading is not, you may be correct that the reading is being held back by the developmental vision problems.  CERTAINLY the spelling is.  

 

So I think, given all that, that you're wise, wise, wise to get that VT going.  Is your VT doc working on those reflexes or a separate OT?  I would get the OT going for a while before you start the VT.  VT when you have significant retained reflexes can either end up not going well or not sticking, neither of which is a good use of your money.  So either integrate the care or get the OT going first.  Some OTs are actually really stellar with vision.

 

Ok, now I'll say this.  Crunchy can take a LOT of work.  My dd, in many ways, was harder to teach these things than my ds with 3SLDs and ASD.  I kid you not.  Her brain just, well it's crunchy.  We'd work SO much on spelling, so many ways, over and over, year after year.  We finally gave up in 7th.  I think you have to get the vision going, and then I think there is the reality check that some kids need a lot more work than others.  You can google my username and spelling and see what pops up.  My posts may be in threads with more posts to inspire you.  For us dictation was good, context was good, anything with analysis was good.

 

Did your psych eval identify any strengths to latch onto?  What does she like to do?  The things my dd was doing in these early years are what she still does.  You may be seeing things you need to nurture or make time for...

 

 

[Kat w]

Heathermomster , I'm glad you said that about 2e.

I felt strange about this part but really?

 

When she showed me the results and went over them and told me he was 2e. I've (although I fell apart at my lil guys DX) had a really, really hard time Nd not knowing ir what to do or how to handle the 2e thing.

 

I just remembered laying in bed thinking...NOW ? Another layer in the mix???

 

And worse yet? In the opposite direction , when our deficits are so low in so many areas?

 

Iean I knew he excelled at things, I just thought it was normal.

 

I've had the hardest time the the e part.

 

Leaves me, how do I do this now?

 

It's uo , it's down its every which way.

 

I feel like I can do the bad news with my youngest, better than the e part of the 2e for the older one.

 

And I had an accelerated learner with my oldest CP kid.

 

*shakes head vigorously*

 

It's like, can there possibly be a bother layer to this??

 

Anyway, very hard for me to deal with. I'm in mode of correcting deficits.

Sigh.

[Heathermomster]

I enjoy my DS quite a bit.  We've never gone out of our way to treat the smarts.  Whenever I do that, I get in his way.  We basically give him resources that he expresses an interest in so that he can pursue them, and then we sit back and watch to see what happens.  Results are typically unexpected and shocking in a good way.

 

The asynchronicity with processing speed and verbal comp and spatial processing can be challenging as he ages.  DS looks like he's an older teen and so it is easy to expect certain things out of him.  The CBT reminded me a few weeks back to remember that his processing is different.  I know that, but it helped to hear it from this therapist.  

 

I get frustrated that so many teaching professionals don't undertand 2e.  I mean, I picked up books and read about it.  I engaged others and worked on my ignorance a little.  Why can't professionals do the same?  I simply have not met that many who have.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Heathermomster

[Kat w]

Yes. I thought about that .

 

As I reflected, in ps with the therapist and his second SN teacher, I brought up those strengths.

 

They were dismissive and I think it's partly why I never considered it. I did t have anything to compare it too.

 

I'm not sure what to do about that part.

 

We've always taught to the boys strengths along side their weaknesses .

 

Now that I know this is at hand, I want to do all I can to help him with that, BC when I say his weak esses are great, that's an understament . his #'s are so low. His wm still so low and it has climbed quit a bit since he's been home. Everything has, but, he struggles so very much.

 

I NEED to let him be good at whatever he can. It's at the point , he's regressing socially BC of the pull further away from his peers, that and the speech.

 

Lips has helped his speech and reading. But, idk what to do really. And I was so undone about my lil guys results, I didn't ask her.

 

What books did you read?

Edited August 18, 2016 by Kat w

[Heathermomster]

I haven't read that many books.  There are tons of Moms that are more read than me.  Here's my list..

 

Magic Trees of the Mind by Hopson and Diamond  (This book is old and likely outdated.  I loved it because it addressed nurturing intelligence.  I read this book when DS was 2-3 yo.)

 

The Gift of Dyslexia by Davis (I think this man is actually on the spectrum, but he claims otherwise.  The book made me sad because the author was mistreated as a child and endured emotional pain from teachers.  His mind's eye and play doh exercises did not work for DS either.)

 

Overcoming Dyslexia by Shaywitz.  (This book was written for dyslexics and does not address those with ASD or vision issues like convergence insufficiency.  When the book was written, the primary audience was public school aged children and some home schoolers find that offensive because she makes the argument that only O-G certified teachers can teach reading; of course, this book was written before Susan Barton was a big name in the homeschool reading market.  Shaywitz never mentions the hypervisual learners that don't do well with phonics instruction.  I guess the assumption is that the O-G tutor will adapt by using multisensory instruction.  Anyhoo...The book has been updated, but I have never read that one.)

 

The Dyslexic Advantage by the Eides

 

How the Brain Learns Mathematics by Sousa

 

The Dyscalculia Action Plan by Hannell

 

Ronit Bird---A couple of her math books

 

At least three books on homeschooling including the WTM.

 

I cannot list all the curriculum, websites, and blogs that I have ventured to.  I guess that I should mention that I live in an area populated with scientists.  Most families around us have exceptionally bright children so our norm is weird, like most kids that we know are headed to engineering or medical school.  My MIL is a retired reading specialist, and she advised me heavily when DS was young.  MIL interviewed our Wilson tutor.  Imagine someone flying across country to visit family and scheduling that kind of interview.  I grew up with a severely handicapped and blind sibling.  I am quite comfortable with that community and sat many afternoons helping my sister with spelling and maths plus providing her daily care.  My sibling is probably the primary reason that I am not ashamed and unabashedly promote accommodations.   My mother...OMGosh..That woman is a fighter and problem solver.  

 

Got to run..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2016 by Heathermomster

[Joyful Journeys]

If her CTOPP scores are reflecting aggressive intervention but you never gave similar intervention for the RAN/RAS, then that would explain why they seem overall reasonable (average) but still have the low RAN/RAS.  With my ds, I did RAN/RAS exercises with colors and some digits but not letters.  The CTOPP tests RAN/RAS multiple ways, including letters, so the letters score was low and the numbers (which we had worked on) was fine.  Makes sense.

 

So you always are looking to interpret results in the light of what has been done.  

 

Is there money on the line here or your peace of mind?  A school IEP is given because services are needed, and you can have a diagnosis and NOT get an IEP for that as the disabling condition.  So you'll find plenty of mention online of dyslexics who do NOT qualify for IEPs because their interventions bring them up above the threshold for qualifying.

 

So the real question is what you need done.  Since you own Barton, use it.  Since the RAN/RAS is low, work on it.  I agree with the advice to redo the placement test and to do first what the placement test indicates.

 

Ok will do. 

 

SLDs are an unfolding process, sure, but it's also true that not everything that is crunchy gets them.  My dd is crunchy because she has ADHD, but she DOESN'T cross over to SLDs.  And that's a degree that you might only appreciate once your next dc *does* get the SLD labels.  So reading, writing, math can call be crunchy and not get  you the SLD label.  

 

So does it matter or change something getting it?  If it does, then it's something to keep tabs on and figure out how to advocate for.  If it doesn't get her something (disability scholarship from the state, whatever), then maybe it's something you roll with.

 

My concern is for the future it's highly likely she'll be in PS for 4th grade or later. I want to be able to have data that refutes or affirms their original testing, and be sure she will get what she needs there. If despite poor results, she doesn't qualify for an IEP, well then, I'll have even more ammo with DH to keep her at home. 

 

I think it's tacky for someone to say the problems are due to lack of instruction.  In the school they could be compelled to fit RTI into the IEP timeline.  I think the retort is to come back showing the interventions you did.  List the curricula, etc.  

 

Indeed. We have used Reading Lessons Through Literature. She has done nearly daily dictation of phonograms, letter by letter, for 2 years. I say the three sounds for a and she writes A. She can finish rules before I start them "every syllable needs a vowel" etc. But fluency has been very very slow to come and she has mostly stalled out at a late first/early second grade level. I don't know what else to do to improve this, besides VT. And I wanted the testing to tell me what to do. 

 

I say all that, and honestly my ds got his SLD writing label at age 6 in the ps.  If they were seeing it, they might go ahead and label it.  It really might be that it's crunchy but not going to push over.  I can't say for sure.  I can tell you that the difference between crunchy and SLD, in our house, is reflected in the degree of "Oh my you just really DON'T UNDERSTAND why this REALLY IS NOT WORKING" kwim?  Crunchy vs. just extremely not working.  And we've had tutors working with ds all summer.  The one bravely says oh I have him writing a sentence to go with that worksheet.  I'm like you go girl, give it the college try.   :lol:   Now at the end of the summer, she's like I tried, but that is just SO hard for him, so horrible, bogs him down so much.  I said honey, that's why he's got an SLD writing label.   ;)  So she's over her vanity and we're going to typing and tracing.  Cuz life is too short.  

 

I lost why we were talking OT.  If you have retained reflexes (you said Moro, etc., yes?), yes get them treated.  I like the accountability of having appts, but I don't have an exceptionally strong feeling on how frequent those need to be.  It's more finding somebody you think is worth the time/money.

 

I knew this would confuse people, putting them in the same thread, but OT is for my SIX year old. The second post is about her, referring to the reflexes and ADHD. 

 

Ok, you know me, now I'm thinking it's time to ask what you AREN'T yet asking that you need to ask...  I'll come back to this thread in a bit maybe.  We had a wild day and I'm tucking people in.  Let me stew on it.  Once you say ADHD plus crunchy kid, it's a really interesting discussion.  It's really easy to think about what's NOT working and not about what IS.  It's easy to overlook things you can do structurally to make things go better.

 

And how low were those CTOPP scores?  Trust but verify.

 

I don't have them in front of me now, but her CTOPP awareness and memory scores were average or above. The rapid naming subtest scores were identical for letters and digits, at the 16th percentile. I'll have to get the exact number later too, but the grade equivalent is 1.7 so late first grade!

 

[Joyful Journeys]

You're right to get the hearing checked too .

 

You're doing good balancing all those balls.

 

It's hard with 2 of them having issues isn't it?

 

I'm going to start new notebooks.

One for each child. My current one had 2 sections one for each.child.

I just need to do one for each. Ita to easy to swip swap sections and get it mixed up.

It's actually 3 of them. DS has an autism eval Wednesday. It's just all falling down over here lol. 

 

If ASD is diagnosed, you will need an OT. Maybe with a diagnosis, insurance will provide coverage?

 

About the dysgraphia diagnosis, my DS was identified on his 8 th birthday. He could not complete copywork in a timely fashion, especially when jotting things down written on a white or chalk board. DS has always been clever about writing little stories, and his 1st grade journal is adorable. Spelling was off the chain but cute. Assigned writing and sequencing issues were the problem.

 

Was the tester even qualified to diagnose? Did you mention the WISC and I missed it? Eta: Discrepancies with the subtest scores can paint quite a picture. How was processing speed?

 

I don't suspect ASD with my girls, just with my 3 yr old son. I don't think OT will be covered at all for reflex issues. 

 

I was just thinking that since DS is in special ed prek, perhaps we can wait a bit for his therapy to start and do DD6 first for a couple months to get the exercises down and routine so that way we can continue on our own. That wouldn't be such a shock to the budget. 

 

Yes, she had a WISC and for the life of me I can't find the raw scores. She's mailing the full packet soon so I'll have another copy. If I recall, processing was on the lower end. 

 

You mention 2E..which I need to google as I'm not sure I understand. Does that mean gifted, yet with an LD? She scores super high in some visual/spatial things, doing some high school level patterns on the WJ and such. IDK what scores she would need to have to be labeled gifted though? The pysch honestly, wasn't that helpful. I likely will go elsewhere in a year for our achievement testing and look at some of this again with a different person. 

Edited August 18, 2016 by Joyful Journeys

[Joyful Journeys]

I'm trying to reread to find what your questions were.  What interventions did you do before the CTOPP?  Did you google for explanations for low RAN/RAS?  That really is wicked low.  What was her processing speed.  I think it would be good to get an explanation for that wicked low RAN/RAS. You can intervene, but why was it low and what else does it reflect?

 

If a rising 3rd grader is reading at a 1st grade level, despite reasonable instruction, remind me why she's not getting a dyslexia label?  You said her CTOPP scores tell you it's not dyslexia.

 

 

I think her vision problems could explain her spelling and the reading errors.  In fact, if her CTOPP scores are where you'd expect them to be but the actual reading is not, you may be correct that the reading is being held back by the developmental vision problems.  CERTAINLY the spelling is.  

 

So I think, given all that, that you're wise, wise, wise to get that VT going.  Is your VT doc working on those reflexes or a separate OT?  I would get the OT going for a while before you start the VT.  VT when you have significant retained reflexes can either end up not going well or not sticking, neither of which is a good use of your money.  So either integrate the care or get the OT going first.  Some OTs are actually really stellar with vision.

 

Ok, now I'll say this.  Crunchy can take a LOT of work.  My dd, in many ways, was harder to teach these things than my ds with 3SLDs and ASD.  I kid you not.  Her brain just, well it's crunchy.  We'd work SO much on spelling, so many ways, over and over, year after year.  We finally gave up in 7th.  I think you have to get the vision going, and then I think there is the reality check that some kids need a lot more work than others.  You can google my username and spelling and see what pops up.  My posts may be in threads with more posts to inspire you.  For us dictation was good, context was good, anything with analysis was good.

 

Did your psych eval identify any strengths to latch onto?  What does she like to do?  The things my dd was doing in these early years are what she still does.  You may be seeing things you need to nurture or make time for...

 

I've not googled causes no, now I'm curious. 

 

I mean to me, if she has average to high scores on her phonological awareness and memory, how would she be dyslexic? Is it not a phonological disorder? And that's why I thought maybe we didn't need Barton, since it's to remediate phonological issues yes? She read the nonsense words fine, which was surprising as just a few months ago it was difficult. Single words she does ok, but reading in paragraphs are hard, hence my leaning now to it being purely a vision issue. 

 

Yes, I think you're right. She might not cross over into a disorder, but just needs very systematic practice..over teaching..for things to stick as if she's not necessarily processing it right then, it will take a lot of exposure for it to stay. 

 

She's artsy, and likes to design clothes and is into math and building (minecraft!). She's good at problem solving type things. 

[Heathermomster]

http://www.wilderdom.com/intelligence/IQWhatScoresMean.html

 

A stanine on the WISC-IV sub-test numbers is 15.  When there is a difference of two stanines within IQ sub-test scores, that would be considered a disabiling condition, unless the child is African American.  When the NP looked at son's numbers, they also looked at his specific written expression achievement testing and there was at least a 30 pt difference between what was expected WRT IQ and where he tested on the WIAT and WJ.  IDK if that makes sense.

 

It sounds like your child's issues will improve with VT.  After VT, you may want to sit down with a tutor that you trust and discuss where the learning breakdown actually occurs.  He/she may be able to guide you so that you are not wasting your family's resources and specifically target the gaps.

 

Try to remember that programs like Barton and Wilson assume some prior learning with gaps.  These programs use multisensory and direct instruction to explicitly teach at ground zero.  They do this to ensure that any language gaps are covered.  Some children may not need that help, but mine certainly did because phonics was not taught explicitly, and the classroom teacher did not slow down to accommodate all her learners.  The year that my DS attended kindie, 5 of 19 children wound up in either Wilson or were held back and repeated kindie.  First grade teachers have the expectation that basic reading was covered previously, and they have moved on to more advanced, multi-syllable type words.  If a child enters 1st grade without the basics, they are essentially toast without remediation.  These problems blow up by 4th grade.  Barton will take you back to the basics that were missed due to the unknown vision issues.  Remember too that O-G type reading remediation literally rewires the brain.  If your child has a wm deficit, she will need a longer amount of time to learn and retain the information.  Thankfully, she will learn to read with time, patience, and persistence.  IDK what is best in your situation, so maybe speak with someone that has worked with your child and understands you.  Many moms on the board bypass curriculum like Barton and use other products that work fine and suit their family well.

 

My suggestion to you is use audio books if she'll tolerate it.  She needs to hear language and vocabulary so that her word bank grows as the eyes are retrained.  

 

 

Edited August 18, 2016 by Heathermomster

[Kat w]

It's actually 3 of them. DS has an autism eval Wednesday. It's just all falling down over here lol.

 

 

I don't suspect ASD with my girls, just with my 3 yr old son. I don't think OT will be covered at all for reflex issues.

 

I was just thinking that since DS is in special ed prek, perhaps we can wait a bit for his therapy to start and do DD6 first for a couple months to get the exercises down and routine so that way we can continue on our own. That wouldn't be such a shock to the budget.

 

Yes, she had a WISC and for the life of me I can't find the raw scores. She's mailing the full packet soon so I'll have another copy. If I recall, processing was on the lower end.

 

You mention 2E..which I need to google as I'm not sure I understand. Does that mean gifted, yet with an LD? She scores super high in some visual/spatial things, doing some high school level patterns on the WJ and such. IDK what scores she would need to have to be labeled gifted though? The pysch honestly, wasn't that helpful. I likely will go elsewhere in a year for our achievement testing and look at some of this again with a different person.

I agree joyful journeys.

 

What you've described with the 2 children above, I don't see ASD either.

 

Hugs on the appt coming up or your other guy.

 

I have 2 autistic boys , a CP girl and another one dyslexic and other things.

The girls are grown.

I feel like God was preparing me my home life fir these little boys.

 

Hugs and best to you.

[Lecka]

For "isn't dyslexia purely phonological" the answer is no.

 

For the most mainstream common kinds, they are related to phonological or poor rapid naming/RAN/RAS.

 

That is why there are screenings for both.

 

For example my oldest son took the Dibels screening in K, and one of the sections is having kids name letters of the alphabet as quickly as possible. That section is basically a rapid naming test. My son did bad on it (as they score it) despite *knowing* the names of the letters.

 

It is a risk factor for learning to read if you score low on this, the same as it is a risk factor to score low on the blending/segmenting/rhyming sections that are more about phonological processing.

 

So ---- they use different wording, they say "at risk" of difficulty learning to read. They never say the word "dyslexia." But it is still something where it is known it is related and it is known that you can work on it.

 

My son's scores were low on all of it.

 

But I don't really know much about the rapid naming or how it would influence your choice of reading program. I think Barton is still good to use, but I would want to verify that.

 

I also think it sounds like your daughter's scores have improved on other sections.

 

My older son is like that. His scores went up! They are still lower average, but they are not low enough to flag a concern. But that is okay bc he is reading well now, too. But it was a lot of hard work.

 

But yes -- you do expect scores to improve when you work on things! And if you have worked on things, even though you don't have a baseline score, most likely it did improve the scores from what they would have been.

 

Iow -- if she needs VT that is its own thing. But I wouldn't quit looking at the reading instruction side just bc now she has the good scores on some sections. To me it is like -- yes, bc you have done the equivalent of a program for that. But she may still need more direct instruction to keep making progress.

 

My son also was helped by OT for his tracking issue. It was a really specific issue (his eyes jumped at the baseline) and OT really helped him move into chapter books. But he still needed all the reading instruction stuff, too.

 

It is not really like there is just one thing to do, sometimes, unfortunately.

 

Also here we do not have the integrated VT where they also do OT stuff. Here OT is where you find things that others on the boards have done through VT.

 

For my son he could read well reading things like captions, bc it would be more like one long line, but not the length of a page. It was easier for him . He could read in some comic books. So I could see the reading stuff working. He would just lose his place in trying to read chapter books. He would completely skip a line that started a paragraph, like he couldn't see the line if it was indented. So he really struggled with chapter books, but he could read words and sentences, and he could read in different formats.

 

But I already had gone through a lot of reading stuff with him before I was aware of his tracking being a problem, too, so that is the order things went in for us.

 

But I don't think that just the tracking would have been all *he* needed, even though I think there are kids where it is just what they need and then they take off.

[Lecka]

I am going to add something I was told, when I had a chance to talk to someone pretty knowledgable. But it was one of those, I was there for younger son but slipped in a question about older son.

 

I said, basically: the phonemic awareness stuff is remediate now, so why isn't he just the same as the other kids who never struggled?

 

The answer was: he will still work harder through every stage, but it is good he has gotten where he is.

 

I had thought it was more like: remediate the phonemic awareness, get him to where he doesn't score "at risk" on the screening anymore, and he is no longer at risk.

 

But I was told it is more: he is just at risk, he will need more work at every point through becoming a fluent reader, at every stage and point.

 

It is not just that you remediate the underlying issue and then it is done.

 

Now, that was specific to my son, but it was what I was told and it turned out to make sense.

 

It is just not what I thought, I had thought it was more: remediate the underlying issue, get the score up, problem solved. But it was more like -- that was necessary but not sufficient.

 

But with that said -- I am not super-knowledgable about rapid naming. But I know my son scored at risk (or whatever they call the lowest score, they have nicer names like foundational or something, so it doesn't sound so bad) in the rapid naming section in K, also. But I never did anything specific for it, I didn't know about it at the time. I think it came up in the course of other things we did. I did a lot with him for fluency, like an entire year just on fluency when he could decode and when he had his tracking resolved but he was still not reading fluently! And then it just takes extra time for him sometimes.

 

But now he can read well and you can't tell it took him longer/harder to learn. That is his outcome; I know it is not everyone's outcome but it was possible with him.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Lecka

[PeterPan]

I would put your energy into the VT, work on RAN/RAS and working memory, and work on visualization techniques for memory/learning and comprehension.  The breakdown is occurring with paragraphs, which means it's her vision.  Given that her CTOPP scores are fine, I think you could ethically focus on those things for 6 months and then see where you're at.  My guess is her reading will spontaneously correct.  Meanwhile, use LOTS of audiobooks, at least 2 hours a day, and pursue her interests.  Pursue her interests more than anything else.

 

I mean that mathematically.  If you do 2 hours a day of x grunt work, given her 2-3 hours a day for passion stuff.  Make sure that balance is there.  VT will probably be hard for her, fatiguing, so it's even more important.  Anything else you're doing that's non-essential (history, etc.), let her pursue via her passions.  It will help keep that balance.

 

I would go ahead and get her an OT eval, if you haven't already.  You're right you said 6 yo and older dc.  I was just in and out today and forgot.   :)  OT eval because with the mix you're describing, there will probably be OT issues.  

 

Just as an aside, have you ever had *any* language concerns with her?  

Edited August 18, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Joyful Journeys]

I would put your energy into the VT, work on RAN/RAS and working memory, and work on visualization techniques for memory/learning and comprehension.  The breakdown is occurring with paragraphs, which means it's her vision.  Given that her CTOPP scores are fine, I think you could ethically focus on those things for 6 months and then see where you're at.  My guess is her reading will spontaneously correct.  Meanwhile, use LOTS of audiobooks, at least 2 hours a day, and pursue her interests.  Pursue her interests more than anything else.

 

I mean that mathematically.  If you do 2 hours a day of x grunt work, given her 2-3 hours a day for passion stuff.  Make sure that balance is there.  VT will probably be hard for her, fatiguing, so it's even more important.  Anything else you're doing that's non-essential (history, etc.), let her pursue via her passions.  It will help keep that balance.

 

I would go ahead and get her an OT eval, if you haven't already.  You're right you said 6 yo and older dc.  I was just in and out today and forgot.   :)  OT eval because with the mix you're describing, there will probably be OT issues.  

 

Just as an aside, have you ever had *any* language concerns with her?  

 

Yea sorry, I understand, I appreciate y'all taking the time to respond! I know you're busy.

 

No language concerns ever! I've always thought she comprehends quite well. She has done narration with WWE (briefly) and ELTL (about a year off and on) and done well. All last year we read great chapter books aloud, she was picking up things in books like A Wrinkle in Time that I didn't even put together. She understood funky syntax like Alice in Wonderland, it's been great. But then for her to try to spell apple "alpl", I was just a little thrown, it's odd she'll occasionally throw extra sounds in or delete them. And reading out loud can be just painful to hear sometimes with the lack of fluency, but other times, she does fine. She picked up the Trumpet of the Swan, her favorite book, and got through a few pages reading to herself. She tells me she skips words she doesn't know, which is likely a lot, but I'm happy that the desire to read is starting to emerge. Still, I just want to spend the very limited time we have uninterrupted (we seriously can get next to nothing done with DS around) I want to make it effective.

 

So Barton 1, Singapore (I've considered letting her try Beast academy too), maybe Bravewriter? I want something that gets us writing something every day that's not copy work.  

 

I wonder what OT issues there could be though? She doesn't jump lines when she reads but she's currently doing exercises that has her finding specific letters in random words, to help her hone in on the words I suppose.

[Joyful Journeys]

http://www.wilderdom.com/intelligence/IQWhatScoresMean.html

 

A stanine on the WISC-IV sub-test numbers is 15.  When there is a difference of two stanines within IQ sub-test scores, that would be considered a disabiling condition, unless the child is African American.  When the NP looked at son's numbers, they also looked at his specific written expression achievement testing and there was at least a 30 pt difference between what was expected WRT IQ and where he tested on the WIAT and WJ.  IDK if that makes sense.

 

It sounds like your child's issues will improve with VT.  After VT, you may want to sit down with a tutor that you trust and discuss where the learning breakdown actually occurs.  He/she may be able to guide you so that you are not wasting your family's resources and specifically target the gaps.

 

Try to remember that programs like Barton and Wilson assume some prior learning with gaps.  These programs use multisensory and direct instruction to explicitly teach at ground zero.  They do this to ensure that any language gaps are covered.  Some children may not need that help, but mine certainly did because phonics was not taught explicitly, and the classroom teacher did not slow down to accommodate all her learners.  The year that my DS attended kindie, 5 of 19 children wound up in either Wilson or were held back and repeated kindie.  First grade teachers have the expectation that basic reading was covered previously, and they have moved on to more advanced, multi-syllable type words.  If a child enters 1st grade without the basics, they are essentially toast without remediation.  These problems blow up by 4th grade.  Barton will take you back to the basics that were missed due to the unknown vision issues.  Remember too that O-G type reading remediation literally rewires the brain.  If your child has a wm deficit, she will need a longer amount of time to learn and retain the information.  Thankfully, she will learn to read with time, patience, and persistence.  IDK what is best in your situation, so maybe speak with someone that has worked with your child and understands you.  Many moms on the board bypass curriculum like Barton, and it works great for them.  

 

My suggestion to you is use audio books if she'll tolerate it.  She needs to hear language and vocabulary so that her word bank grows as the eyes are retrained.  

 

How does being African American affect this? She is half AA, half Mexican American. 

 

It does make sense. The psych said on paper that the raw scores alone would qualify for SLD written expression. But that there is a clause in the DSM that if the child has not had exposure to some of the tasks in the testing, that should play a role. I find it kind of silly though since odds are even public school kids may not have been asked to do these sort of things before? For instance building a sentence out of two: The dog is brown. The dog likes to run. Combining them you would say, "the brown dog likes to run." She answered instead "the dog is brown and the dog likes to run." I asked her to write a sentence about her favorite thing about the summer as another poster suggested. She wrote "i like watr becus it is cool." I just don't know that there's anything wrong, but then again, I've not asked for more before.