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Low percentile 3rd grader, High percentile 2nd grader


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I am concerned about the gap in scores between my 2nd and 3rd grader. My oldest (just finished and tested at end of 3rd grade)was the reason I homeschooled because he read at 3.5 y/o. Today at 9, he doesn't like to read or isn't self driven unless it's comical or Lego related. He does like a few adventure books, but he won't read without being told often. I used WTM methods the first 2 years, but he has always been average on Woodcock Johnson testing. This year, I cut back on the reading for my own sanity, but still had 1 hour of reading alone, not read aloud. My self motivated 2nd grade reader scores very high. I also use Saxon and both are at grade level. The same happens. My 3rd grader shows being gifted at Math, yet, the same happens, he scores at level and my 2nd grader scores very high. The test admin was not resourceful with things that I can use. Many of my public school friends use Kumon when they want to continue with signs of brilliance and I am trying to avoid that. Any suggestions on what I can do?

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Are you concerned that there may be a learning issue holding back your 3rd grader's achievement level from rising to his level of ability?  I wouldn't expect a gifted kid to test ahead of the grade level he is receiving instruction in.  Some may test ahead due to having intuited more advanced concepts, like your 2nd grader may have, and some won't test ahead without more advanced instruction, possibly like your 3rd grader.

 

The test admin was not resourceful with things that I can use. Many of my public school friends use Kumon when they want to continue with signs of brilliance and I am trying to avoid that. Any suggestions on what I can do? 

 

If you are asking for math program suggestions for a gifted student with no math-related learning issues, this is where the Accelerated Learning forum comes in handy - feel free to post over there.  For such a student, who sounds uninterested, I might wonder whether Saxon at grade level is a good choice.  I'm not sure I'd pick Kumon either (drill, boring!).  For a more interesting program, I'd look at Beast Academy or Singapore Math.

Edited by wapiti
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Hi, it seems you're out of lurking a bit!  I read your only other post from 2014, and honestly there's not enough information there for people to get a complete enough picture for people to help you.  We can make some assumptions and guesses.  Could you maybe expand more?  

 

For instance, are either of these kids young for their grade?  If the 3rd grader is young for his grade and the 2nd grader is on the mature end, that could make for a big spread.  Personalities could make for a big spread.  VISION problems could create a spread.  Personality or developmental differences could create a spread.  Nuts, even past speech/language problems could account for this.  

 

Because you haven't had other posts on the board sharing other things, people just don't have enough dots to help you connect them.  On a personal level, I would encourage you to compare your kids against expected performance based on probable IQ, rather than comparing them to each other.  WTM is not a formula that turns out above average scores, and kids DO perform above school instructional level when gifted.  So it's MORE concerning if a dc is not performing as you would expect based on their ability.  Gender matters.  You don't want to compare a dc who is a younger girl to an older boy.  You don't want to compare a highly social younger girl with an ASD older boy.  I mean there are just so many background details like this that could be going on that would affect the situation and how you interpret it.  

 

You're going to want to look at each child as an individual, see where they're performing, see what factors are affecting how they're doing, see where they compare to their peers (not to each other), and see whether their progress is appropriate.  If scoring in the 50th percentile on the WJ is matching expected IQ and ability level, then you're all good.  There CAN be wide ranges in kids with age and gender differences.  

 

On the most SUPERFICIAL, and I really do mean superficial, level, a preference for non-fiction over fiction *can* indicate a social learning disability.  Do you think that's going on?  To have a boy liking legos and comics is not unusual.  Any indication of dyslexia?  Anything flagging unexpectedly low on the WJ for that dc?  

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Underperforming because of the signs of brilliance and the scores not reflecting it. Since he was reading at 3, I am feeling like I should have put him in a program that could have kept that going momentum and I did something wrong. Homeschooling is my way of keeping his reading level accelerating, but I am beginning to second guess myself as I enter his 4th grade year.

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Hi, it seems you're out of lurking a bit! I read your only other post from 2014, and honestly there's not enough information there for people to get a complete enough picture for people to help you. We can make some assumptions and guesses. Could you maybe expand more?

 

For instance, are either of these kids young for their grade? If the 3rd grader is young for his grade and the 2nd grader is on the mature end, that could make for a big spread. Personalities could make for a big spread. VISION problems could create a spread. Personality or developmental differences could create a spread. Nuts, even past speech/language problems could account for this.

 

Because you haven't had other posts on the board sharing other things, people just don't have enough dots to help you connect them. On a personal level, I would encourage you to compare your kids against expected performance based on probable IQ, rather than comparing them to each other. WTM is not a formula that turns out above average scores, and kids DO perform above school instructional level when gifted. So it's MORE concerning if a dc is not performing as you would expect based on their ability. Gender matters. You don't want to compare a dc who is a younger girl to an older boy. You don't want to compare a highly social younger girl with an ASD older boy. I mean there are just so many background details like this that could be going on that would affect the situation and how you interpret it.

 

You're going to want to look at each child as an individual, see where they're performing, see what factors are affecting how they're doing, see where they compare to their peers (not to each other), and see whether their progress is appropriate. If scoring in the 50th percentile on the WJ is matching expected IQ and ability level, then you're all good. There CAN be wide ranges in kids with age and gender differences.

 

On the most SUPERFICIAL, and I really do mean superficial, level, a preference for non-fiction over fiction *can* indicate a social learning disability. Do you think that's going on? To have a boy liking legos and comics is not unusual. Any indication of dyslexia? Anything flagging unexpectedly low on the WJ for that dc?

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I'll try to reply with your expectations, however, I do find your response a bit intimidating. I'll do my best to expand. I have had his eyes checked, no problem, he's an older 3rd grader. I am wondering why they have the work for their grade, yet my son is testing average, although he read at three and has been adding numbers in his head without the need for manipulatives (before he learned math facts) since four. I would like some resource for seeing signs of an advanced child and keeping it going.

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What I've read is that age for reading is *not* considered indicative of IQ.  It *might* be *sometimes* correlated, but it could correlate with other things.  For instance, extreme early reading like that could be a form of hyperlexia.  Hyperlexia, common in ASD, would occur where the brain is putting tons of energy into reading, not into other things, and the language skills are behind the reading.  The dc literally begins to read beyond his comprehension.  So my ds, for a time, was a dyslexic hyperlexic, if you can imagine.  He was decoding material but could not understand it because his language ability was lower than what he was reading.

 

I'm not saying your ds has ASD.  I'm just seeing multiple explanations for what you're describing.  Your thesis is that he is gifted because he read at age 3, and I think you might want to back up and question that.  I'm sure he's a very bright boy!  There just could have been more explanations.  One of the features of giftedness is DRIVE, and typically you can't hold that back.  Even a 10 point bump in IQ is going to bump that drive, that need to learn.  So for me, I don't really think you messed up.  I just think maybe there are more explanations, more interpretations for what you're seeing.  

 

That's why I was asking for more data, to see if there were more explanations.  

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I'll try to reply with your expectations, however, I do find your response a bit intimidating. I'll do my best to expand. I have had his eyes checked, no problem, he's an older 3rd grader. I am wondering why they have the work for their grade, yet my son is testing average, although he read at three and has been adding numbers in his head without the need for manipulatives (before he learned math facts) since four. I would like some resource for seeing signs of an advanced child and keeping it going.

 

What does he like to do?  Does he have hobbies or special interests? And what has he been doing since age 4?  Have you used curriculum with him or did you enroll him in school?  How has he reacted to those choices?

Edited by OhElizabeth
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There are many reasons for a bright neurotypical child to not test well. For example

- reading speed, since WJ is untimed, that won't be a factor

- tracking, eyes get tired from reading so energy is spent reading the test instead of answering

- disinterested over tests that seems boring , I'm assuming there is no incentive to test well. That could explain both math and language arts

- unfamiliarity with fiction if a child reads mainly non-fiction. Comprehension passages are often fiction and a child may not choose the best answer.

 

You mentioned test admin in your post so I am assuming someone administers the WJ tests annually for your children. Can you look over their test scripts even if you have to do that with test admin present? My kids former public school teachers showed me my kids scripts so I could see if it was careless, comprehension issues or something they haven't learnt.

 

Edited for typing errors

Edited by Arcadia
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Op, are you comparing your two children based upon standardized testing scores? If so, why? At that age, my DS did not give a fig about testing and he shouldn't.

 

From what you at describing, your 3rd grader sounds bored. My 2e eldest child learns best with hands on activities. Also, if you are comparing a younger girl to an older boy, that is unfair to your DS because girls are generally more mature than boys. My kids at the same age were worlds apart in the maturity department.

 

As far as the reading, maybe introduce him to audio books. My DD loved the How to Train Your Dragon series. She is currently pleasure reading the Dragonet series. In 3rd grade, my DS was all about non-fiction books, Narnia, and The Hobbit.

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I'll try to reply with your expectations, however, I do find your response a bit intimidating. I'll do my best to expand. I have had his eyes checked, no problem, he's an older 3rd grader. I am wondering why they have the work for their grade, yet my son is testing average, although he read at three and has been adding numbers in his head without the need for manipulatives (before he learned math facts) since four. I would like some resource for seeing signs of an advanced child and keeping it going.

Op,

OhE wasn't trying to offend ir intimidate . I know these things can in and if themselves be intimidating .

Sometimes the tendency is to 'shoot the messenger ' . I've done it. We all, at one time or another, do it when dealing with learning challenges .

 

But OhE was tryin to do right by you and elicit more info so she could better help you.

 

I know sometimes we come to the boards, not really sure what were asking, BC we just can't put our finger on it.

 

There are ALOT of sharp cookies on this board, OhE is very well versed in many areas of learning challenges and accelerated learners, as many here on this board have helpful knowledge and experience .

 

OhE's a good egg :)

None of that was her intent.

Edited by Kat w
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