How to place my son in Rod & Staff Math

[Sweetpetunia]

Hello, I have a 12 year old son and an 8 year old daughter who I am currently schooling.  I've decided we're going to switch to Rod & Staff math because I've heard a lot of good things about it over the years but ignored it because I always thought it looked boring, plus I have a negative emotional association with R&S since it was what my sister and I used the one year we were sort of tutored at home as teens. However, I've read so many good things about R&S math lately that I think I can get over that.

 

I've graduated my two oldest girls, having used so many different math programs and none of them have worked for us. We tried Mastering Mathematics, MUS (twice), Saxon, TT, Life of Fred, Kahn Academy, and probably more I'm forgetting. My oldest is currently in college working on a communications major. She's doing extremely well, made the dean's list last year ect. Except, she had to take remedial math classes and she's struggling a bit with algebra this summer. She says she finally got a teacher who is good at explaining everything and she thinks a big part of that is because the teacher has instant fact recall while the other teachers did not. I sure never did. My 18 year old has graduated, but I've asked her to keep working on her Keys to Algebra workbooks and then go back to Life of Fred for Geometry.

 

Anyway, so far, everything we've tried hasn't worked.

 

Currently, my 12 year old is using Singapore 3A. He's basically done but I haven't purchase 3B yet. I do have 4A & 4B with the home teacher guides. My son has language delays of three years, but I think the gap has gotten bigger since his last evaluation. He has always loved numbers and counting. Math is the only subject he has much patience for and he will usually do on his own. With every other school subject, if it takes too long or bores him in some way, he'll zone out and not take in anything I'm teaching. Even if we have conversations on certain topics, he's forgotten what was discussed by that afternoon. He's different with math. He does take forever to get his work done and usually he understands it, but if it's a more complicated word problem, he needs help. It also took him forever to understand regrouping and borrowing. Likewise, it took lots of explaining before he got the idea of division. He doesn't retain his math facts, which is exactly what my older girls dealt with and that's holding him back just like it has them, and me if I'm honest.  I see my 8 year old typical (I think) daughter having the same issues. She's only used a thick workbook for math (The Complete Book of Math) which was supposed to cover 1st and 2nd grade but is getting ready to go into third grade this year so I need to find something that will work for her.

 

Can anyone offer help in how to place my children with Rod & Staff math? I saw one website that had assessment tests, but I'm 99% sure my husband won't want to spend $20 per test.

 

I looked at the table of contents for the 1st and 2nd grade R&S sets and it looks like there are some topics toward the end that my 8 year old hasn't tackled yet, but the first part looks way too easy. Should I take her all the way back to 1st?

 

I have no idea where to put my son. Like I said, he just finished Singapore Primary Mathematics 3A U.S. edition, and like I said, he really hasn't learned even most of his addition facts. I don't want to frustrate him and I don't want to make the same mistakes I made with his older sisters. I'd really love some help.

 

Edited July 27, 2016 by Sweetpetunia

[Kat w]

Ok, a couple things here I would say.

 

I'm going to order the simply classical by memoria press for my younger boys ( when my husband let's me cuz its very expensive lol) that uses rod and staff and I looked at their site too and I liked what I saw.

 

We have alot of challenges ...math fir mine..seems to be like your son , can't retain their facts, but can do the math problems.

 

If your son is able to do Singapore that is so awesome.

 

Is he learning the concepts just not retaining his facts?

That's how it is for my boys and there have been many discussions in here about retaining math facts ,or, lack thereof lol.

 

If he is learning math, able to do Singapore, I would be so hesitant to take him out of SM. They learn and are arrecrcin so many ways, another program ( except beast) isn't going g to do.

 

I have to use more than one math curriculum BC we just need to much practice, we have low working memory here.

Which goes back to the math facts issue. I ~think~ I have come to the mindset that, retaining their math facts isn't going to kill them in the big scheme if things.

We have smartphone with calculators etc.

 

What did your daughter's do fir math at home ? Forgive me if I missed that part.

We used Saxon math with our girls and mine are a few years older than yours (the girls) . I'd be interested to know if Saxon is what you used for your girls. (That matters)

 

Fwiw , both my girls have overcome where Saxon went wrong and my application of sacon ( it was the creme if the crop in the days of my girls and yours).

Does your son have working memory issues? That will matter.

 

I think, and what I'm going to do, ...given some working memory chsllenges is:

 

-Continue with Singapore, it's such a great math curriculum , that's a hard one to give up. It sounds like he can do the work, just the math facts are an issue. Those are way separate issues to deal with.

If he can do the higher math, but lacks fact retention ( and sounds like the case) I would no take that away. That's good for him. It develops critical thinking for our lil guys who struggle and is a VERY important thing to foster that us carried to other areas of learning.

 

- I do beast academy fir 'fun'. I have to read the problems to them but they can learn the process and get it and work it.

 

- continue the mus that we use-i intro the SM lessons and use them for spiral practice if concepts formerly learned.

 

- I'm going to add rod and staff BC it looks to me like a good curriculum and they will benefit from it.

I do alot of math with the boys BC they are the beat at it if any subject. It gives them confidence they take to other subjects that are harder for them.

I think not one curriculum is going to get you where you need to be , but implemting mre than one. We have to.

 

When you say the facts have held your girls uo, if you don't mind my asking, in what way?

 

My girls ( and my oldest is an accelerated learner) had to take intermediate math for their first college math too , but...now my oldest is premed. And did well with calculus , trig, etc. She just had to get over that humo and here's why,

 

The way math is presented was different from what she had seen before , giea back to, using more than one curriculum , and Singapore teaches the lateral thinking and 4 step approach to combat the, 'oh no, this looks all different' thing.

It really when we broke it down, wasn't that they couldn't do college math, it was the format and presentation if the problems that threw em.

 

I would strongly encourage keepin Singapore in the mix and adding rod and staff since you like how it looked. I did too.

 

As far as the placement tests go, I don't know either. And i m not paying for the assessment. I looked at the scoped and sequence and judging from there where my boys are and ordering that grade level.

 

As with any curriculum change, therea going to be some overlap. It's the nature of the beast, but it just becomes review, ir, if they have truly mastered that part , just skip it. And let them take the test at the end of the chapter fir your records .

 

I'd be interested to see what curriculum you used with your girls. I think saxon may have played a big part in that.

 

And I have to remember fir myself. What is true or the case for one child, doesn't mean it will be so for your 3rd ir your 4 th child.

[Kat w]

PS. I LOVE that you have 9 kids!

I wanted 10, we settled on the # of 6, got 5 lol.

 

Just wasn't in the plan of things I guess for ua.

 

I love big families :)

[Sweetpetunia]

Ok, a couple things here I would say.

 

I'm going to order the simply classical by memoria press for my younger boys ( when my husband let's me cuz its very expensive lol) that uses rod and staff and I looked at their site too and I liked what I saw.

 

We have alot of challenges ...math fir mine..seems to be like your son , can't retain their facts, but can do the math problems.

 

If your son is able to do Singapore that is so awesome.

 

Is he learning the concepts just not retaining his facts?

That's how it is for my boys and there have been many discussions in here about retaining math facts ,or, lack thereof lol.

 

If he is learning math, able to do Singapore, I would be so hesitant to take him out of SM. They learn and are arrecrcin so many ways, another program ( except beast) isn't going g to do.

 

I have to use more than one math curriculum BC we just need to much practice, we have low working memory here.

Which goes back to the math facts issue. I ~think~ I have come to the mindset that, retaining their math facts isn't going to kill them in the big scheme if things.

We have smartphone with calculators etc.

 

What did your daughter's do fir math at home ? Forgive me if I missed that part.

We used Saxon math with our girls and mine are a few years older than yours (the girls) . I'd be interested to know if Saxon is what you used for your girls. (That matters)

 

Fwiw , both my girls have overcome where Saxon went wrong and my application of sacon ( it was the creme if the crop in the days of my girls and yours).

Does your son have working memory issues? That will matter.

 

I think, and what I'm going to do, ...given some working memory chsllenges is:

 

-Continue with Singapore, it's such a great math curriculum , that's a hard one to give up. It sounds like he can do the work, just the math facts are an issue. Those are way separate issues to deal with.

If he can do the higher math, but lacks fact retention ( and sounds like the case) I would no take that away. That's good for him. It develops critical thinking for our lil guys who struggle and is a VERY important thing to foster that us carried to other areas of learning.

 

- I do beast academy fir 'fun'. I have to read the problems to them but they can learn the process and get it and work it.

 

- continue the mus that we use-i intro the SM lessons and use them for spiral practice if concepts formerly learned.

 

- I'm going to add rod and staff BC it looks to me like a good curriculum and they will benefit from it.

I do alot of math with the boys BC they are the beat at it if any subject. It gives them confidence they take to other subjects that are harder for them.

I think not one curriculum is going to get you where you need to be , but implemting mre than one. We have to.

 

When you say the facts have held your girls uo, if you don't mind my asking, in what way?

 

My girls ( and my oldest is an accelerated learner) had to take intermediate math for their first college math too , but...now my oldest is premed. And did well with calculus , trig, etc. She just had to get over that humo and here's why,

 

The way math is presented was different from what she had seen before , giea back to, using more than one curriculum , and Singapore teaches the lateral thinking and 4 step approach to combat the, 'oh no, this looks all different' thing.

It really when we broke it down, wasn't that they couldn't do college math, it was the format and presentation if the problems that threw em.

 

I would strongly encourage keepin Singapore in the mix and adding rod and staff since you like how it looked. I did too.

 

As far as the placement tests go, I don't know either. And i m not paying for the assessment. I looked at the scoped and sequence and judging from there where my boys are and ordering that grade level.

 

As with any curriculum change, therea going to be some overlap. It's the nature of the beast, but it just becomes review, ir, if they have truly mastered that part , just skip it. And let them take the test at the end of the chapter fir your records .

 

I'd be interested to see what curriculum you used with your girls. I think saxon may have played a big part in that.

 

And I have to remember fir myself. What is true or the case for one child, doesn't mean it will be so for your 3rd ir your 4 th child.

 

I think it's as you say. He's learning the concepts, however slowly at times, but not retaining his math facts, like at all. That's what made me think that eventually, he will end up having big problems. He's not learning his math facts, just like my older daughters and me. I see it with my 8 year old DD too. She uses an abacus to do all her math problems. She can't do them without it.

 

I also like the idea that my son is hanging in there with Singapore since he struggles so much with everything else. He is "behind" though. At 12 years of age, he should be in 7th grade (he turns 13 in November), but he's just finished Singapore 3A. I was hoping to have him catch up this summer, but I get busy and forget to make sure he did his math every day and he takes advantage of that by pretending he didn't remember either.lol.

 

I actually wasn't clear on what working memory was when you asked about it, but after looking it up, it really does look like he has a problem with that, especially when it comes to language recall. He has very halting speech because he can't remember which word he's looking for next an if he's stressed out in any way, he can't really speak at all.

 

My older girls tried a lot of different math programs because they had such a hard time getting through any of them. My oldest tried more because of the 4 1/2 year age difference. I think one of the first things we tried was Math-It, but since that wasn't a complete program, we looked for something else. Math-It never helped either of my girls retain any of their facts anyway, so that was a bust. (I tried it with my son a year or two ago and he didn't seem to understand what he was supposed to do.) So we purchased  Mastering Mathematics , then MUS, I think we tried something else in there, but I can't remember what it was...  A Beka maybe?  Then we tried Saxon for one year for both girls. I was actually the problem with Saxon. It just felt like we were spending our entire school day trying to get math done and we had a new baby in the house at the time and I was just exhausted, so that just wasn't working. Then I think we went back to MUS since a friend had convinced me to give it another try. MUS had redone the teacher's manuals (I despised the first set, I couldn't follow them at all.) so that made me think maybe I could make it work a second time around. My oldest actually went with that for a while, by this time she was very very behind in math. It got to the point where she couldn't follow Steve Demme anymore and I sure didn't know what he was talking about so after a ton of arguing, I finally convinced her to try Teaching Textbooks. That may have actually worked except my oldest daughter for some reason kept uninstalling everything off the school computer and I was never able to grade their work. The last straw with TT was when my silly DH bought the old version of TT pre-algebra for my second DD and she hated having to write everything out (I think she has some dysgraphia), so she just quit doing it.

 

At this point, my oldest turned 18 and got her GED.

 

My second child then tried Life of Fred, but she insisted she needed to go back to doing fractions because she didn't understand them. She finally made it to algebra only last year, but we were trying out a home charter school for the first time ever (awful experience BTW) and I was feeling a lot of pressure to send in decent grades. That part I guess turned out to be a good thing because it made me realize that she just wasn't getting LOF either. So we switched to Kahn Academy, but she disliked it and I couldn't figure out how to print off her work to turn in to the school. Finally, our educational specialist, who is a sweet friend from church, gave me a huge book full of sheets from her adult high school program's math, where she's also a teacher, which turned out to be Keys To... 

 

My second daughter still hasn't even finished algebra but I let her "graduate" if she promised to finish algebra and geometry.

 

I was considering sticking with Singapore and adding R&S, but I was afraid to burn us all out. As much as my son seems to tolerate math though, he might just like doing both programs.

 

I have no idea how my 8 year old DD would handle doing 2 programs. She's still so full of wonder about the world right now but I can tell she's hitting the next level of maturity. She's started having panic attacks. Thankfully not when it comes to school, but still, I don't want to stress her out too much.

 

MUS was also a contender because of my son's strong visual/kinesthetic learning style. He's also a whiz with LEGOs so I figured the blocks would be a big draw for him. In fact I actually bought the Alpha workbooks at the beginning of last year because that's when he just couldn't figure out borrowing/regrouping. We watched our old MUS DVDs and did a few lessons, but I lost the big block house poster, from so many years ago and it took me forever to make another. By that time, my DH had finally gotten our son to understand borrowing/regrouping, so I stopped with the MUS.

 

Are you doing all three programs with your kiddos? Singapore, R&S and MUS? How long does that take you every day and do you take breaks in between?

 

I felt like not knowing their math facts really held my older girls back because they're afraid of math. Honestly though, they got that from me. I'm afraid of math too. I still don't know a lot of my math facts and it can be really embarrassing sometimes. I finally learned the whole 10's addition thing after working with cash for years as an adult. It's insane. I was a front end clerk at a grocery store counting out $100,000 minimum drops every weekend night at closing for a couple of years before I fully grasped it an it took a few more years practice before I felt solid. I finally learned how to count back change after years of elderly people, some patiently, and some not so patiently showed me how over and over and over again. I didn't know my 10s facts at all until then. My older girls just freeze up when it comes to math. I can see it on their faces because that's what I used to do too.

 

My oldest was dreading taking algebra in college this summer. Her fiance told me she'd be on the verge of a panic attack most nights because she wasn't understanding her homework. A few weeks in though, she finally started to understand a little, but she'd frequently forget how to do it again. She also panicked every time she had to work on a new concept.  My second daughter freezes up and gets really cranky over algebra too.

 

Thanks for the help. My DH hates talking curriculum with me so it's nice to talk to people who can tell me about their experiences and give some suggestions. :)

Edited July 28, 2016 by Sweetpetunia

[Sweetpetunia]

PS. I LOVE that you have 9 kids!

I wanted 10, we settled on the # of 6, got 5 lol.

 

Just wasn't in the plan of things I guess for ua.

 

I love big families :)

 

Aww, you're so sweet. I love big families too. :) The 9 actually include my "angel babies" in heaven. Sorry, I know my signature is a little confusing. I think I added all my little angels after losing my son Peter and I just can't make myself remove them from my signature. :)

 

I actually only have five children on earth. Like you! :D

 

Its funny that you said "big families". I used to live in an area where 9 children was big, but I knew people who had 8, 9, even a family with 10. Where I live now, my family is looked upon as huge, and my oldest has moved out, so usually, I only have 4 with me. It's interesting to see the difference.

Edited July 28, 2016 by Sweetpetunia

[OneStepAtATime]

Have you had evaluations for the children that are still at home?  It sounds like you could be dealing with dyscalculia and possibly other issues as well.  

 

FWIW, my DD15 is in 5th/6th grade math right now and I am happy she got there.  She was in a brick and mortar school through 5th grade but was not learning math. We started homeschooling for 6th but we didn't really understand how little she did truly "get" until the ladies here suggested I start her completely over with the very basic building blocks of math and see what happened.  She actually had so little understanding of math it was shocking.  I had no idea how bad it was.  She had gotten pretty good at faking it without even consciously realizing that was what she was doing.  Poor kid had also developed a severe phobia regarding math.  She felt stupid and incapable.

 

We had to start completely over in 7th grade with pre-Kinder stuff to solidify the basics.  We used Dynamo Math and Ronit Bird primarily then moved her over to CLE for 2nd grade material, along with some Beast Academy done together.  Now she is doing a combination of CLE and CTC math, along with math games.  She is finally grasping a lot of things and moving forward.  There are areas that are a struggle but she genuinely understands so much more now and is no longer fearful of math.  She actually enjoys basic geometry.  

 

Math fact memorization is still dicey, though, and may always be.  She has to see it in many contexts, and see the meaning, and apply it in many different ways and review many times before something sticks.  But I am much less concerned with math facts than with concepts at this point.  DH does not have all of his math facts memorized but he is a successful engineer.  I do not have all of my math facts memorized but I run the family business finances.  Lack of having math facts down fluently is a pain and certainly for something like a standardized test it can mean not finishing in the given time frame unless accommodations are made or the student has developed very helpful coping strategies (I'll get to that in a minute).  However, in real life not having math facts memorized is easy to work around.  Calculators abound.  Lack of fluent math facts does not mean a child can't succeed in a given field.  What can hinder a lot more is lack of understanding of the concepts behind mathematical equations and the absence of coping strategies for functioning in a world that uses math.  

 

As for ways to help, DD creates her own math reference charts to use when she is doing multi-step math problems.  She creates one at the beginning of every other week to keep things fresh, plus she also plays math games and we do real world math application.  Rote memorization is not possible for her brain.  The facts just slide right back out again.  She needs to work with her facts, see purpose and application in those facts. Some HAVE stuck.  That helps.  For the others, we work on them separately from her math lessons and she uses that math fact chart the rest of the time.  This way her brain does not go into overload trying to remember math facts AND math algorithms for more complex problems AND what all the terms mean AND the concepts behind it all.  She can focus on learning the concept and the algorithm.  

 

FWIW, I have a nurse friend that struggled with math.  She really wanted to be a nurse but math was her bugaboo.  She focused hard on learning the concepts behind the math (which took going way back to basics and moving forward again) and for standardized tests she would draw tiny math fact charts on the side of the pages for any facts she was super shaky on.  How could she draw them if she didn't know her facts?  She could skip count.  For instance, the 7s were really tough for her.  She would start with 7x3 and skip count through, writing the answers.  Then when she started the test itself she was able to move much more quickly through the problems.  Because she understood the CONCEPTS she was able to figure out a lot of problems even when math fact memorization was slowing her down.

 

She is now a teacher as well as a nurse.  She was showing me that if DD can understand the concepts she will do far better than just being able to memorize.  She showed DD and I a problem she gives her new students to see if they are locked in the world of rote memorization and spoon fed algorithms or not.  I don't recall the specifics but it was in regard to what dose of a medicine to give a patient.  The tricky part was that the bottle of medication had to be converted to another type of measurement for the syringe being used.  DD looked at it and answered the question very quickly.  DD does terrible with measurement.  Why was she able to answer far faster than me?  Because I was trying to remember rote memorized formulas and algorithms instead of actually READING the problem and thinking it through.  The answer was right there and easy to discern logically.  My nurse friend said that she has found that students coming in that worked really hard on rote memorization skills may have done well on tests in High School but they couldn't THINK.  Most would get the problem wrong because they wanted some sort of conversion chart to refer to and were locked into rote memorized information.  They couldn't read the problem and THINK their way through it.  I couldn't either.  DD could.

[Sweetpetunia]

Have you had evaluations for the children that are still at home?  It sounds like you could be dealing with dyscalculia and possibly other issues as well.  

 

FWIW, my DD15 is in 5th/6th grade math right now and I am happy she got there.  She was in a brick and mortar school through 5th grade but was not learning math. We started homeschooling for 6th but we didn't really understand how little she did truly "get" until the ladies here suggested I start her completely over with the very basic building blocks of math and see what happened.  She actually had so little understanding of math it was shocking.  I had no idea how bad it was.  She had gotten pretty good at faking it without even consciously realizing that was what she was doing.  Poor kid had also developed a severe phobia regarding math.  She felt stupid and incapable.

 

We had to start completely over in 7th grade with pre-Kinder stuff to solidify the basics.  We used Dynamo Math and Ronit Bird primarily then moved her over to CLE for 2nd grade material, along with some Beast Academy done together.  Now she is doing a combination of CLE and CTC math, along with math games.  She is finally grasping a lot of things and moving forward.  There are areas that are a struggle but she genuinely understands so much more now and is no longer fearful of math.  She actually enjoys basic geometry.  

 

Math fact memorization is still dicey, though, and may always be.  She has to see it in many contexts, and see the meaning, and apply it in many different ways and review many times before something sticks.  But I am much less concerned with math facts than with concepts at this point.  DH does not have all of his math facts memorized but he is a successful engineer.  I do not have all of my math facts memorized but I run the family business finances.  Lack of having math facts down fluently is a pain and certainly for something like a standardized test it can mean not finishing in the given time frame unless accommodations are made or the student has developed very helpful coping strategies (I'll get to that in a minute).  However, in real life not having math facts memorized is easy to work around.  Calculators abound.  Lack of fluent math facts does not mean a child can't succeed in a given field.  What can hinder a lot more is lack of understanding of the concepts behind mathematical equations and the absence of coping strategies for functioning in a world that uses math.  

 

As for ways to help, DD creates her own math reference charts to use when she is doing multi-step math problems.  She creates one at the beginning of every other week to keep things fresh, plus she also plays math games and we do real world math application.  Rote memorization is not possible for her brain.  The facts just slide right back out again.  She needs to work with her facts, see purpose and application in those facts. Some HAVE stuck.  That helps.  For the others, we work on them separately from her math lessons and she uses that math fact chart the rest of the time.  This way her brain does not go into overload trying to remember math facts AND math algorithms for more complex problems AND what all the terms mean AND the concepts behind it all.  She can focus on learning the concept and the algorithm.  

 

FWIW, I have a nurse friend that struggled with math.  She really wanted to be a nurse but math was her bugaboo.  She focused hard on learning the concepts behind the math (which took going way back to basics and moving forward again) and for standardized tests she would draw tiny math fact charts on the side of the pages for any facts she was super shaky on.  How could she draw them if she didn't know her facts?  She could skip count.  For instance, the 7s were really tough for her.  She would start with 7x3 and skip count through, writing the answers.  Then when she started the test itself she was able to move much more quickly through the problems.  Because she understood the CONCEPTS she was able to figure out a lot of problems even when math fact memorization was slowing her down.

 

She is now a teacher as well as a nurse.  She was showing me that if DD can understand the concepts she will do far better than just being able to memorize.  She showed DD and I a problem she gives her new students to see if they are locked in the world of rote memorization and spoon fed algorithms or not.  I don't recall the specifics but it was in regard to what dose of a medicine to give a patient.  The tricky part was that the bottle of medication had to be converted to another type of measurement for the syringe being used.  DD looked at it and answered the question very quickly.  DD does terrible with measurement.  Why was she able to answer far faster than me?  Because I was trying to remember rote memorized formulas and algorithms instead of actually READING the problem and thinking it through.  The answer was right there and easy to discern logically.  My nurse friend said that she has found that students coming in that worked really hard on rote memorization skills may have done well on tests in High School but they couldn't THINK.  Most would get the problem wrong because they wanted some sort of conversion chart to refer to and were locked into rote memorized information.  They couldn't read the problem and THINK their way through it.  I couldn't either.  DD could.

 

No, I haven't had any of us evaluated for math issues. I don't even know where to go to do that. Plus, my husband is normally a super sweet guy but whenever I think one of the kids has issues with something, he thinks I'm reaching quite a bit. I also think he thinks I'm just trying to be mean to that particular child. I don't understand why. I think that's really silly of him since DH has ADHD and mild dyslexia. He got upset with me when I was figuring out our son's language delays, anger & anxiety and he also got upset when I thought our oldest daughter had vision issues. I was right both times. At least he apologizes after we've gotten it figured out, but it's so frustrating to have to deal with that on top of finding out our children have yet another struggle to deal with.

It does make me feel better to know my children aren't the only ones who are not working on "grade level" whatever that means. Thanks for that. :)

 

Stupid and incapable. That's how I felt/feel when it comes to math. I felt it  back when I was working outside the home since I usually had jobs that had to do with cash handling. I feel it now that I don't know how to help my children with math. My oldest daughter is always saying she feels stupid.  The funny thing is that in high school, I didn't feel stupid in my math classes.  I was usually at the top of that particular math class, but I started out in Pre-algebra in 9th grade. In Geometry, we had to work in groups a lot of the time and I was the one everyone else in my group borrowed the homework/seat work to copy from. I did feel it when overhearing some of the other kids at school talk about doing Calculus. I knew I'd never get there because I'd started so far behind and I'd never been good at math anyway. I made up for it in other areas, so it wasn't too bad. I guess the good thing for me was that none of my friends were taking Calculus either. :/

 

So where does someone learn the concepts? Would Singapore cover that?

 

[Kat w]

I just got home and read through you response.

 

Honey, please don't worry about those math facts, we have smartphone! Lol. I firget mine too.

 

Him being able to do the concepts is awesome ! :)

 

I have that exact same situation here with dh..and did with my dyslexic DD 24..

 

I have a full response for you...

I just walked in the door tho and have kids who destroyed the house and DG gonna be home soon.

 

Let me get everyone settled here and I will come back later and respond.

 

You are doing great tho, and it's going to be OK.

 

Be back a little bit later.

 

We have the same situations here and, I've been there. Still there! Lol.

 

We all get through this together :)

Bug hugs, see ya in a bit

Edited July 28, 2016 by Kat w

[OneStepAtATime]

Signapore/Math in Focus/Beast Academy/AoPS all teach conceptual math.  Of the four I think Math In Focus is the easiest to implement for someone non-mathy because it is very step by step but starting in the middle of that type of program can be very challenging.  Beast is great but non-mathy people would need to work it together, not expect a non-mathy student to figure it out on their own, and they would need to be patient.  The goal is not the answer but figuring out the thinking behind the problem and the process to get to the answer.

 

Have you tried hiring a tutor to help you AND the kids?  I have tried locally but could not find anyone that understood serious math struggles.  They just expected things to click with one explanation and got frustrated with my daughter when that didn't happen.  Still. when we were out of town for a summer a few years back we found a fantastic instructor that really helped DD with quite a few things.  If I could have brought her home with me I would have done it in a heartbeat.  She understood DD better within 2 days of meeting her than DD's math teacher did in 3 years of instruction in her classroom (3rd-5th).  Anyway, my point is that maybe you could get lucky?  

[Kat w]

I fell asleep last night lol. Was long day.

 

Onestep I love your story you've shared before about your dh.

Before I found this forum, we have some real life friends here who is a similar situation , the man is a software engineer .

 

He wasn't diagnosed til in his 40's. He said finally....it really IS something. And he was able to get help. Has helped him alot.

 

Im gonna respond to you sweet petunia, gonna get some coffee and wake up my mind.

Grandbaby 'shared' the grunge goin around . sure wish some things she wouldn't share lol

Edited July 29, 2016 by Kat w

[Sweetpetunia]

Signapore/Math in Focus/Beast Academy/AoPS all teach conceptual math.  Of the four I think Math In Focus is the easiest to implement for someone non-mathy because it is very step by step but starting in the middle of that type of program can be very challenging.  Beast is great but non-mathy people would need to work it together, not expect a non-mathy student to figure it out on their own, and they would need to be patient.  The goal is not the answer but figuring out the thinking behind the problem and the process to get to the answer.

 

Have you tried hiring a tutor to help you AND the kids?  I have tried locally but could not find anyone that understood serious math struggles.  They just expected things to click with one explanation and got frustrated with my daughter when that didn't happen.  Still. when we were out of town for a summer a few years back we found a fantastic instructor that really helped DD with quite a few things.  If I could have brought her home with me I would have done it in a heartbeat.  She understood DD better within 2 days of meeting her than DD's math teacher did in 3 years of instruction in her classroom (3rd-5th).  Anyway, my point is that maybe you could get lucky?  

 

Oh good! Then since my son already likes Singapore, we could just stick with that. That's good to know. I think from now on I will order the home instructor guides.

 

We have had some financial struggles. My poor husband has been through six jobs in the past two years. Thankfully, he's working at a more stable place that's been around for a while and he's earning a bit more than he used to. We're slowly purchasing things that we'd been putting off for a long time. A tutor just wasn't going to happen, but at least it's something we can start to think about now.

 

I'd actually been hoping to use some of our educational funds last year to pay for tutoring. We had signed up with a home charter school last year for the first time ever, but it turned out to  be a disaster. I suspect the woman who ran the school may have been embezzling. She wasn't paying her teachers, vendors or many of her purchase orders, then she convinced a larger charter school south of us to pay off some of her debts, saying she was going to incorporate her "school" into theirs. After stringing them along for a while and getting a lot of our orders paid off, she "changed her mind" and the hand-off never happened. Plus, she never ended up hiring any tutors anyway. I plan on filing a complaint with the state board of education but apparently, there's some super secret process and I can't figure out how to do it. We're currently waiting on another charter school to move into this area, hopefully this year. I believe they actually have tutors, so if they do, that's the first thing I'm going to ask about. I've also seen a sign in someone's front yard not to far from here for tutoring services and they take special needs kids, so if all else fails, I may inquire there.

[Kat w]

Ok, I have to respond in short responses, I have an old slow phone that freezes up alot.

 

The working memory and higher order concepts are 2 different things. The fact that he can do Singapore is impressive! :) that's a really advance program . when he's working on level 3....that's actually 4th grade math! :) and when compared to ps math, it woukd go uo at least another half grade,so, you're doing great! :)

 

Let him keep doing Singapore. I've read in many different books and on here, that when we let the child accelerate other areas of the mind that they carry to other subjects . so let him keep goin mama! You'll see improvements in other areas too. We have.

 

Fir math facts, I give my boys a book of math facts so they can look at to answer math fact problems, and that is using it in application , which, helps them remember better anyway.

We do still work on math facts some here. But I dint press it ir make it a huge deal. I don't want them to feel bad about it. We have smartphone now with calculators in them anyway. You'd be surprised how many adults can't recall math facts and hold high paying jobs.

 

My boys struggle so much in all other areas too, that letting them accel in math concepts gives them loads of confidence. I praise them alot. It's praiseworthy. Singapore is a hard math :) just goas slow as you need to. Everyone learns how that person learns...that's one of the beauties of homeschooling .

 

On the working memory, language recall, speech. You could be describing my boys. They do the same thing.

You can start with your pediatrician on where he says to go for evaluations. Hell send you in the right direction and the office will help place you with someone that accepts your insurance . big plus lol.

I think that's so awesome that you're willing to get them and yourself evaluated. It makes all the difference in the world. Relieves frustration and it just makes everything including everyday life much more pleasant and you feel hopefully :)

Getting help is the beat feeling in the world...ask m how I know lol ( been there!) All of us in this board have . will help you and your kids a ton. There is alot that can be don't to improve these things.

[Kat w]

I will respond to the rest in just a bit...we are out of ds12 medicine......I think I just heard a wall fall down lol.

 

Be back in just a bit

[Kat w]

Yes, stay with Singapore .

[Kat w]

I just caught some if the above....dont wait in a tutor.

 

Go to your pediatrician and get a referral for evaluation . you don't know what exactly ir how to Tudor until you find out what all is going on and in the meantime, tutoring could possibly do more harm than good. ( not all tudirs are the same) and insurance doesn't cover them.

 

Very pricey and could actually hurt without evals

[Kat w]

And the charter school at this point without evaluations will just be more frustrating to you and your kids :)

 

Be back, gotta reboot my phone and redirect my son real quick

[PeterPan]

Oh good! Then since my son already likes Singapore, we could just stick with that. That's good to know. I think from now on I will order the home instructor guides.

 

We have had some financial struggles. My poor husband has been through six jobs in the past two years. Thankfully, he's working at a more stable place that's been around for a while and he's earning a bit more than he used to. We're slowly purchasing things that we'd been putting off for a long time. A tutor just wasn't going to happen, but at least it's something we can start to think about now.

 

I'd actually been hoping to use some of our educational funds last year to pay for tutoring. We had signed up with a home charter school last year for the first time ever, but it turned out to  be a disaster. I suspect the woman who ran the school may have been embezzling. She wasn't paying her teachers, vendors or many of her purchase orders, then she convinced a larger charter school south of us to pay off some of her debts, saying she was going to incorporate her "school" into theirs. After stringing them along for a while and getting a lot of our orders paid off, she "changed her mind" and the hand-off never happened. Plus, she never ended up hiring any tutors anyway. I plan on filing a complaint with the state board of education but apparently, there's some super secret process and I can't figure out how to do it. We're currently waiting on another charter school to move into this area, hopefully this year. I believe they actually have tutors, so if they do, that's the first thing I'm going to ask about. I've also seen a sign in someone's front yard not to far from here for tutoring services and they take special needs kids, so if all else fails, I may inquire there.

 

Sorry, I hadn't read your thread because I am not conversant on R&S math.  I *am* concerned about your charter situation and your ability to get evals.  Whether you homeschool, ps, charter school, whatever school, you have the LEGAL RIGHT to evals through the ps.  Are you enrolled in the charter for this coming year?  If you are, then you'll have to go through them to get your IEP.  The ps will do the evals, but the charter is involved in the process.  Since they're so disorganized, that will probably make a mess.  

 

Either way, if you want evals, you can do them through the ps for FREE.  I'm not saying private is not better.  Just saying you can get evals.

 

As far as what evals will change, just varies.  Right now you don't have explanations.  My ds is diagnosed with SLD math, and the things mentioned here wouldn't work for him.  I think everybody just has their experience.  I'm not sure it's as easy to find a math tutor awesome with dyscalculia as say reading where you just look for OG-certification, Barton certification, Wilson training, etc. and know what you're getting.  There's not that for math.  Sometimes slowing it down helps, sometimes it doesn't.  I use Ronit Bird materials specifically meant for dyscalculia.  

 

To me the thing that complicates it, and a good reason to get evals, whether you go through the ps or privately, is because you don't know what ELSE is going on.  There could be ID or a language disability or ADHD or ASD or any variety of things going on to complicate it.  I'm not commenting on your dc, because I don't remember any of the details.  I'm just saying in general, other things would make the math harder and need to be considered while you're working on the math.  For instance, a dc with ID who struggles with math gets different materials from a dc who has a gifted IQ with dyscalculia.  And a dc with ASD will add generalization problems to that mix, where they might have to do the same thing in lots of contexts, no matter what the IQ.  And kids with low working memory (due to ADHD, whatever), will have that affect how well they LEARN new material.  Working memory increases will improve short term memory and let it hold it short term long enough to move to long term.  Ironically, my dd with ADHD is MUCH harder to teach math, in many ways, than my ds with SLD math and ASD.  I kid you not.  It's just really hard to get things into her brain!

 

You can even have a situation where developmental vision problems are glitching up their visualization of the math, making them unable to use what could potentially be their best path for learning, visual.  Or it could be a very visual or paper-driven path for a kinesthetic learner.  I know that's preaching to the choir.   :)

 

So there are plenty of good reasons to get evals.  To get the evals, it sounds like you have to sort out the charter thing and who would be doing them.  

 

Keep us posted on how it goes.  People can help you sort out the eval thing if you need that too.   :)

Edited July 29, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

I'm just glancing back through what you've written.  If he has language delays that are untreated, that probably explains why he's struggling as he gets into more challenging math.  My ds has verbal apraxia, ASD, and low language scores, and for him he just really does not comprehend very basic words.  He needs more exposures, more ways, more physical ways, to the words in order to understand them.  So when I know some math language is coming up, I'll try to weave it into life or into the lessons and USE it till it clicks and I see it has clicked.  You may need to pull out manipulatives, draw out word problems. actually teach him what the words mean.

 

Has he had recent SLP testing to see where his scores are?  Language delay is treatable and should get intervention.  If you're doing a charter taking ps money, they're supposed to service an IEP, yes?  Find out.  So you get the evals, get the IEP, and then get the intervention.  I'm not meaning to be trite, but it's stuff like this that comes back to bite you in the butt, and it's really upsetting that the charter was dropping the ball so much.  So fresh evals and an IEP and service or you doing it at home, yes.

 

Does your state offer a disability scholarship?  Some do.  In our state it would be more than what you get from the charter.

 

You're describing *at least* ADHD.  My concern, once you list the zoning out *and* the language problems *and* other things is that this could push over to a different label.  It would be nice to have that sorted out.  If ADHD is part of the mix (no matter what the final labels), that is treatable with meds.  I know a lot of people are anti-med, btdt.  I'm not saying you have to, but it's nice to have the information to make an informed *choice* at least.  The more complicated the questions, the more likely the ps is to screw it up.  It would be a reason to push for private evals, because your explanations are likely to be more thorough.  But still, the ps CAN get this done.  You're just going to have to advocate HARD and not back down.  Make them eval every single thing.  Everything.  Run tools for ASD and anxiety and ADHD and language and SLDs and IQ and EVERYTHING.  

 

In the meantime, try shorter sessions and try doing a movement break with some midline exercises before math.  See if that helps get him a little more present.  You can give him a little caffeine if you want.  We did that with my dd and it was surprisingly helpful.  There is info online for how to dose.  It's really a teeny tiny amount.  Like for my dd, who is a full adult size/weight, it came out to like 1/2 tablet.  It wore off in maybe 3-4 hours, but it helped noticeably.  

Edited July 29, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Sweetpetunia]

I'm just glancing back through what you've written.  If he has language delays that are untreated, that probably explains why he's struggling as he gets into more challenging math.  My ds has verbal apraxia, ASD, and low language scores, and for him he just really does not comprehend very basic words.  He needs more exposures, more ways, more physical ways, to the words in order to understand them.  So when I know some math language is coming up, I'll try to weave it into life or into the lessons and USE it till it clicks and I see it has clicked.  You may need to pull out manipulatives, draw out word problems. actually teach him what the words mean.

 

Has he had recent SLP testing to see where his scores are?  Language delay is treatable and should get intervention.  If you're doing a charter taking ps money, they're supposed to service an IEP, yes?  Find out.  So you get the evals, get the IEP, and then get the intervention.  I'm not meaning to be trite, but it's stuff like this that comes back to bite you in the butt, and it's really upsetting that the charter was dropping the ball so much.  So fresh evals and an IEP and service or you doing it at home, yes.

 

Does your state offer a disability scholarship?  Some do.  In our state it would be more than what you get from the charter.

 

You're describing *at least* ADHD.  My concern, once you list the zoning out *and* the language problems *and* other things is that this could push over to a different label.  It would be nice to have that sorted out.  If ADHD is part of the mix (no matter what the final labels), that is treatable with meds.  I know a lot of people are anti-med, btdt.  I'm not saying you have to, but it's nice to have the information to make an informed *choice* at least.  The more complicated the questions, the more likely the ps is to screw it up.  It would be a reason to push for private evals, because your explanations are likely to be more thorough.  But still, the ps CAN get this done.  You're just going to have to advocate HARD and not back down.  Make them eval every single thing.  Everything.  Run tools for ASD and anxiety and ADHD and language and SLDs and IQ and EVERYTHING.  

 

In the meantime, try shorter sessions and try doing a movement break with some midline exercises before math.  See if that helps get him a little more present.  You can give him a little caffeine if you want.  We did that with my dd and it was surprisingly helpful.  There is info online for how to dose.  It's really a teeny tiny amount.  Like for my dd, who is a full adult size/weight, it came out to like 1/2 tablet.  It wore off in maybe 3-4 hours, but it helped noticeably.  

 

Yes, my son is the same as yours, he doesn't understand very basic words. It has to be something that catches his attention or he doesn't absorb it.

 

I don't know if there's a term for it, but there's so much he doesn't understand, yet some things he's got incredible knowledge about. When he was about 5/6 we did a kindergarten unit, spending a few weeks on the solar system. He absorbed nothing. However, the following year, he discovered Star Wars. He absolutely loved it and it got him interested in space. He pulled our Apologia astronomy book off the shelf all on his own and practically memorized it. I still recall one of his speech teachers' double take when she asked him what his favorite planet was and which he'd like to travel to if he could. He gave his answer and then this poor kid who has such a hard time stringing words together listened to his teacher tell him which planet she wanted to travel to. He stopped and corrected her, telling her that she couldn't do that because the particular planet she had chosen was a gas planet so she wouldn't have anywhere to land. She just did not know how to respond to that. LOL!

 

There are lots of times when my son does need visual examples of his math problems. Things like a three step word problem can trip him up, but if I can draw him a picture, he'll get it very quickly.

 

His last evaluation was a couple of years ago. We used to take him in for therapy at our local university for their graduate student program and they would evaluate him every semester. The last evaluation said he has expressive/receptive/cognitive language delays of 2 years expressive and 3 years receptive. I think that gap has gotten bigger lately.

 

More recently, he did get speech therapy through last year's charter school. They took forever to get us an IEP meeting and then the woman who ran the school delayed paying the private speech therapy company, so he only got a few months of therapy. Thankfully, the therapist was very good and my son warmed up to her right away. I asked about evaluations and she told me I'd have to ask for the school to evaluate him. Another down side to that though was that we had to do the speech therapy over Skype, which, normally, I wouldn't have minded, but I think my son needs more actual face-to-face work. He doesn't make eye contact when talking to people and he needs to work on that.

 

We were never sent paperwork to re-enroll in the charter for this year. Other families were. I think it's because the school didn't like having to pay for therapy for us, but that's just too bad. It's the law. It's what they're required to do. Either way, the school is no longer going to function in this area. Right now we have no charter here but there's one trying start up.

 

Thanks for the encouragement to fight for my son's educational rights. If the new charter does start up and if we do enroll, I'll do just that. If the charter doesn't happen for us for whatever reason, I'll take him back to the university for therapy. We'd actually stopped taking him there for a while because money had gotten really tight and we just couldn't afford even the discounted therapy. I had applied for our local Shriner's (they offer free speech therapy) about a year ago, but I still haven't heard back from them.

 

I've never heard of a disability scholarship, so I'm going to say no, my state doesn't offer them. I'm sure someone would have told me about them. When we first moved back to this state, I was part of a special learner's group and I know they would have said something. Unless it's something that's more recent. I'll look into that.

 

I'm not completely anti-med, but I used to be.lol. The older I get, the more I understand that meds have their place too. I would still prefer to avoid them if I can. My 18 year old has never been diagnosed but she has to have ADHD. In fact, she just went galloping past me.lol. It's what she does to work out her need to move. She drinks caffeinated teas and she and I both think that helps her. I don't know if my son would go for that or not. He's crazy picky about what he eats/drinks and his gluten-intolerance does not help the situation.

 

I did get the kids some Thinking Putty. I'll have to have him use that more often. I forgot about midline exercises. I'd read about them and tried them briefly with my now 18 year old, but I don't think I've ever tried them with my other children.

 

I'd never considered that my son has ADHD. I guess it's because his attention problems are something I've only noticed recently during school and because overall, he does things a lot differently than his sister and daddy do. He for sure has the language issues. I think he also has ASD. He was evaluated for it as we were in the process of moving back here from out of state. He'd gone to a special-ed preschool up there and they were convinced he had ASD. Unfortunately, we had to move here and being a poorer area, people didn't want to help much. We took him to a regional center for evaluation and he hit all but one marker (not sure if that's the right term) for ASD. The only reason he didn't hit that marker was because he would play with his sisters (I don't think they considered that it tended to be parallel play) an because he would sometimes make eye contact. Apparently neither they nor I noticed that he doesn't really make much eye contact while talking to people. I never realized that until a year or two later when one of the speech grad students pointed it out.

 

So, if the charter doesn't work out, do you have any suggestions about where to go for evals? It'd have to be general suggestions of course since you don't likely know my area.

 

I'm sort of torn about the charter thing. On the one hand, if we do it, I can demand evaluations and therapies. On the other hand, I hate all the testing and paperwork, plus, we're Christians and I like to use Christian curriculum whenever it works for us. We're not supposed to use any sectarian materials when using a charter whether we pay for it ourselves or not. And we have to keep up with Common Core, which I don't really mind some of it, but other parts are just silly.

Edited July 29, 2016 by Sweetpetunia

[Kat w]

^^^ what she said lol...

 

Sweetpetunia. There's a software program for kids who have dyscalcula and other things, it's 10. A month per child and has been great for my boys.

I'm going to make a post about it. Fir 10. A month, wow. IMO, you get alot.

 

My phone won't let me do links. I hope someone can link it when I make a post BC there's something very interesting to me and many have mentioned in the boards and definitely an issue for my boys.

 

Application. When you learn something , taking it and applying it in other areas. That can be really tough for our kids.

[Kat w]

Wow, you've really done alotsweet petubia.

 

You can go to your local districted public school and tell them you need evaluations. 2 years ago, it's time again. Alot of changes going on when they are younger .

 

They will probably be different tests than you had run at the university. We went the university route lately too. I was very happy.

 

You can in writing, request your school board to give them better teats ( your state may offer better tests than ours. Ours were not that detailed =cheaper lol)

 

And they can then chose to grant or deny.

I think you would have a better chance at getting better testing granted if you mention ASD . put it in writing wherever you can. That's one the school board shouldn't be letting go.

I would make sure you let them know it has been observed in the professionals in other states . that could be the gentle nudge they need :)

 

I think you're right about the ASD missing it by one point. Most of his sister's are older too, and they are moreso looking for peers. At least, that's how our questionnaire read.

 

I would go to your PS first chance you get. Start testing, find out what tests they will administrator , then come back here and ask the group lol.

 

Then, I would make an appointment with your pediatrician , explain what's going on, and ask what referrals your insurance would pay for. Our insurance pays 100% up to.....certain amount of visits, then we are self pay.

 

Ask the pediatrician office what state services are available in your state. Also, ask the public school when you go.

 

It's going to be....getting all the help you can in all avenues. Public school , anything your insurance would pay for and if possible, OhE , has said this multiple times and she's right.

With the apraxia , I think a PROMPT SLP would be the one to see IF funds allow . as OhE describes, she can tell you about it, but it sounds like your son is like mine, needs the hands on approach .

 

Ask everyone you talk to about this, who knows, your public school may have a prompt SLP. Ours doesn't. But if anything at this point would be self pay at all...I would ( we haven't been yet, we go next month) but I'm sure OhE and others can tell you...with the apraxia and to the degree you seem to be describing ...PROMPT would be the way to go, if you can.

 

We have some pretty significant speech issues too.

 

That's what I'm doing, alloting my expendable funds for...PROMPT. We have to have it.

He's basically unintelligible to the general population .

 

Big hugs. Others can tell you about prompt, we just haven't been yet. Cannot wait though.

 

You've done good mama!

 

The above us what I would do, and ask ask ask everyone (PS, pediatrician, neighbors) about any funding available in your state.

 

I haven't found any.

We adopted babies who were exposed and we don't qualify. Because we are private adoption s we get...squat lol.

 

Your state and case may be very different. They all are lol

Edited July 29, 2016 by Kat w

[Kat w]

And the meds. I USED to be anti meds lol. Not so much anymore. I am med careful now though. There are different and better meds that used to be on the market.

 

We are on vyvanse. OhE I heard once word it in a way I couldn't pull out of my brain ( there's alot in there these days lol) and ...I still can't pull out of my brain haha. Thought I have been told by the pediatrician and went to their website.

 

We are on vyvanse and intuv at night. Lots of great meds on the market ir coming out ( hubby works fine pharmaceutical company)

 

So, our minds are at ease given our situation with the boys ( they truly need something) and the new generation of meds.

 

It ain't your mamas ADHD meds anymore lol.

 

So when you go to pediatrician definitely talk to him about this.

Don't forget . it will change your life haha...(were off med fir the weekend...ouy lol)

[PeterPan]

Since you said ASD, I'll say yes, that's the elephant in the room here.  An ASD diagnosis is going to get you the most services and most access and most funding, so that's what you might want to consider fighting for.  The language delay is part of the federal definition of autism.  It's *not* in the DSM criteria, but it *is* in the federal definition.  

 

States don't necessarily broadcast what they offer for services.  I suggest you call your county board of developmental disabilities and ask how to get him connected with services, funding, evals, etc.  If you do not have insurance or your insurance does not cover what you need, they may be able to direct you to the child medicare.  The *reason* this is important is because your ability help him and direct him ends at 18.  Some providers will pull back and want his consent even before that.  I'm just saying legally your ability to make things happen takes a huge turn when he hits 18.  It's vital that you get things sorted out for him, get him connected to resources and services.  

 

I didn't know about our state's disability scholarships till a therapist told me.  And she had known for several years!  So who knows what is out there.  Say, for instance, he qualifies under ASD this time.  It sounds like he should have before and he probably will this time.  So say he does.  Say your insurance goes sure, ASD gets ABA.  Well the language, the learning quirks, a lot of this can actually fall under ABA and get worked on by ABA tutors.  So that's why I'm saying go for the global diagnosis, the big one that opens the doors and gets him more services.

 

In a percentage of ASD, yes there is ADHD going on, but in another percentage there is NOT.  I think that would be really important to sort out, and not in a sort of flippant way.  Sometimes kids with ASD who don't need the meds can have very scary reactions to them!  So it's a really important question to sort through carefully.  It *is* possible that the fading out is due to the ASD and the language and not really an ADHD thing.  Or it could be all three.  

 

Hmm, did we muddle that for you?  Sorry about that.  You started off asking about math, and you ended up getting told to get expensive evals!  It's hard stuff.  See what your options would be using the most global diagnosis, the ASD, and see where that can get you.  State medicaid to pay for evals, something.  *Sometimes* the ps evals can get this right, but they'll more likely than not screw it up.  If you can make private happen, either yourself or with state children's insurance or something, that would be the way to do it.  

[Kat w]

Hahaha...muddle it. Dat was cute.

 

That's what I LOVE about the forums. You may think you have one question , but really, there's more to it and these ladies can help get that sifted through , advise, encourament.

 

So many times I have seen something talked about on the threads and thought.. Oh...wow. That's us! And investigate.

 

I agree with all of that OhE.

 

I second that! Lol

 

I'm on....well. Mommy meltdown :)

 

"Moms losin it!....moms losin it"

~cheaper by the dozen ;)

[Kat w]

Oh...yes. OhE makes a REALLY good point.

 

At the age of 18. Even if your state doesn't have something available , I strongly encourage you to pursue whatever method or means you have available to tackle this now. When they are young.

 

We always hear the younger the better and it's true, fir so many reasons.

 

We didn't do anything about it for dd24 (hubby was opposed and poo pooed it like you mentioned in an earlier comment)

He now sees, that was not the way to go.

It was very labor intensive after age 18, BC they are legal adults and don't ~have~ to do what you say lol. Little bugars :)

 

We wound up, this time hubby interveined ) and put her in the car and took her to get help.

It took awhile to get her to cooperate , but she finally saw the benefit and is now doing better.

It , for us, ( not saying it would be for you) was a very long hard road starting at age 18.

 

So yes, definitely pursue those, and it sounds like you have, and are :)

[Sweetpetunia]

Wow, thank you for all this help! I may start by asking my cousin about how she got her children's ASD diagnoses. She lives just north of me and since she knows this area, she may have some good info for me. She tried to talk to me about it once, but at the time, I was so evaluated-out that I told her we'd already checked into it. Plus, I had a lot on my plate. Pretty sure I had PPD with my last baby that lasted a really long time. I couldn't even help myself. I wasn't looking to take on another fight.

 

Thankfully, I'm on the mend. My husband and I have been working on our health pretty hard lately, so I'm feeling stronger not only physically, but emotionally these days. I think your nudges have been a good thing for me. Thanks so much.

 

Now, off to try to convince the hubby and ask my cousin some questions...

Edited July 30, 2016 by Sweetpetunia

[Mrs. Tharp]

I've skimmed the other responses. Evaluations are probably a good idea; more information about possible issues is almost always a good idea. 

 

I'm going to swim against the tide here and strongly recommend switching to R&S. I think people get kind of polarized about the rote memorization vs conceptual understanding aspects of math. Neither issue is particularly "better" to have. Ideally, you want both math facts and conceptual understanding or at least partial mastery of both. If you have one without the other, you struggle. People minimize these struggles with particular strategies/techniques, but it's still better not to have them at all when possible. Many kids also need  to practice the algorithm in order to fully understand the concept. 

 

It's great that your son can do Singapore, but as you pointed out, he is well behind grade level, which means he could be struggling with either concepts or language in math as well as math facts. 

 

The advantage of Rod & Staff is that concepts are introduced incrementally (but to mastery, it's not a spiral program), while the basics are given tons of review This has been helpful for my son with ADHD who struggles with math facts. It is also not nearly as language heavy as the more conceptual math programs, which has been very helpful for my son with ASD who struggles with concepts. You could start him at 4th grade level, which still gives ample opportunity for math facts practice while introducing new concepts. The books are very straightforward and consistent in scope and sequence; if he masters the 4th grade concepts quickly it would be easy to move him up to R&S 5, while still getting practice in the basics. 

 

R&S math is also extremely easy to teach and would be easy to supplement with something more "fun" if you wanted. 

 

 

[Kat w]

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