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Help! I am thinking about delaying the Logic stage.


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Well, I am a new homeschooler and my child is going into the 5th grade this school year. I honestly don't feel like she is ready to go into the "logic" stage. After reading through the book again, I see so many possible gaps in her education. She has traditionally scored well with testing but I am not convinced that she is strong enough to start. So would doing a repeat 4th year better prepare her? Or should I push forward and slowly build the knowledge base and expectations throughout the year?

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Welcome! I see by your post count that you are new to these boards. :)

 

… I see so many possible gaps in her education... should I push forward and slowly build the knowledge base and expectations throughout the year?

 

There will always be "gaps" because no one can learn it all. What you're shooting for is solid foundational skills in math, reading and writing, and everything else is frosting on top. So yes, just continue to move forward and build on the foundation you've already laid. :) You're doing great, just keep it up! :)

 

 

...my child is going into the 5th grade this school year. I honestly don't feel like she is ready to go into the "logic" stage...

 

And then I'd just like to reassure you that homeschooling, whether you are following a classical model or other model of education, is all about tailoring it for the student in front of you, and where that child is developmentally, whether advanced, delayed, or dead average. :)

 

I'd also like to reassure you that moving from the Grammar Stage to the Logic Stage (and then Logic Stage to Rhetoric Stage)  is NOT like flipping a switch. It does not happen just because the student is now labeled "5th grade" and the Logic Stage is labeled "grades 5-8". More realistically, students transition slowly into the Logic Stage over several years. So, a rare few students may start to develop the skills and traits and brain maturity of the Logic Stage in grade 4, but much more commonly that transition seems to take place more along about grades 6-7; and a few students are on their own unique timetable and don't even start developing into the Logic Stage until about grade 7 or 8.

 

Teach the child in front of you. Has your child mastered the skills in her 4th grade math book? Then move on to the grade 5 math book. Has the student mastered the spelling, grammar, and writing programs you used in 4th grade? Then take the next step and use the next grade level of material.   :) No need to worry about arbitrary labels.

 

Learning disabilities/issues, or if skills were not grasped, or if the student was floundering with the level of the material are the reasons you might need to either slow down or repeat material or not advance to the next step of learning. Since your student scored well in testing, bravely move forward.

 

In the next year or two, as you see your student is ready, you can slowly start to introduce materials which develop critical thinking skills. And you can slowly add in a bit of discussion and beginning analysis types of questions in your science, history, and literature studies. You might even now enjoy doing some elementary level critical thinking and logic puzzles, games, and activities to "prime the pump" for later formal studies involving "Logic Stage" skills and thinking.

 

You might like to read through these past threads as well, for more perspectives on transitioning from Grammar Stage to Logic Stage:

 

"Transition from Grammar to Logic Stage ?s"

"5th grader not ready for logic stage?"

"Does anybody with a rising 5th grader *not* feel like they are ready for the logic stage?"

 

Edited by Lori D.
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I think it's a rare 5th grader who is in the Logic stage. And like Lori says, it isn't like flipping a switch. Definitely don't make expectations and demands of a child who is no developmentally ready to meet them.

 

Continue to do grammar level work until the need for logic level work is evident. Have fun and welcome to the board!

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I would say to remember that the "logic stage" isn't so much about skills and content that a child got or missed, but also as much about a natural stage of growth and development. You can't really stop it any more than you can stop a kid who's "not ready" from going through puberty. While kids all move at their own rates and having a solid grammar stage education helps enable a child to use those skills in new ways... a 7th grader who has a ton of skills and content gaps is still going to crave more deep thinking work than a 3rd grader who's at that 7th grader's same functional skill and content level. They just are. Think about how we recommend different books for that 3rd grade advanced reader than the 7th grade struggling reader even if their reading level is exactly the same - they need different approaches. And part of the approach for an older kid who has skill gaps is still to give them a chance to flex their logic muscles. You're talking about being not a great speller and lacking some grammar concepts, but those things aren't going to hold back most kids in most areas.

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Just about all grammar programs start at the beginning, so figure out what you want to use and grab the 5th grade level of that program.

Junior Analytical Grammar

Easy Grammar

Rod and Staff

First Language Lessons (level 4)

Growing With Grammar

 

Any of these would be fine. There are other choices out there.

 

There are lots of spelling programs, too. Sequential Spelling, Phonetic Zoo, Writing Road to Reading (with various spin-offs), Apples and Pears (or is that the reading one? I can't remember). . .

 

It might take you a bit to figure out what type of program to use. Look around on here and you'll find oodles of choices that people use.

 

Good luck!

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Some kids don't start grammar until sixth grade. Some kids will never be great spellers. It's okay.

 

There is no one magic way to homeschool. No perfect timeline. But there are helpful guides like WTM. If you like WTM, go for it, but remember it is just a tool, a good, solid tool but one that's meant to be tweaked for your needs.

 

All kids develop differently, on different timelines, with different strengths and weaknesses. It's worthwhile to think about those, as you have been, and adjust The WTM recs for your needs without considering holding her back or repeating grades.

 

I have seen over time that sometimes the areas of weakness become strengths, sometimes naturally and other times with special attention.

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Are you looking at the stages as rigid rules? Kids are all over the place. Your other post with specific curricula didn't strike me as behind for a 5th grader. Start wherever she is at in each particular subject and move forward from there. Stage shmage.

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Are you looking at the stages as rigid rules? Kids are all over the place. Your other post with specific curricula didn't strike me as behind for a 5th grader. Start wherever she is at in each particular subject and move forward from there. Stage shmage.

 

Some of those were stabs in the dark. I was continuing with SOTW 3 because that's where her class left off last year. The other stuff is general plug and play, trying to follow the book. With our literature being wrapped with writing, again, its just some suggestions from others. The only books she honestly likes are the Percy Jackson series and I Survived. We are planning to start Aug. 1 but I do not feel prepared at all. I almost want to sign her up for virtual public school.

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As for starting back in the grammar stage, where do I start? I am not so worried with math because that is her super subject as well as science. I think her grammar is missing pieces and her spelling is pretty good but not phenomenal.

These are skills to teach. The stages of learning are not so much about skills or even what content is covered but about how the mind learns and functions during these stages. So if your child needs grammar or spelling instruction in 10th grade that doesn't make them in grammar stage.

 

You decide on the skills and content needed, and then teach in the way your child is prepared to learn.

 

Some things, formal logic for instance, are not really achieveable until the mind has gone through the cognitive development necessary to reason logically (just ask any parent who tries to reason with a young child), and are best reserved until they're ready to think that way. But for the most part the stages (phases) are about how they learn, not what they're learning.

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Some of those were stabs in the dark. I was continuing with SOTW 3 because that's where her class left off last year. The other stuff is general plug and play, trying to follow the book. With our literature being wrapped with writing, again, its just some suggestions from others. The only books she honestly likes are the Percy Jackson series and I Survived. We are planning to start Aug. 1 but I do not feel prepared at all. I almost want to sign her up for virtual public school.

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

Take a deep breath.  You and she will both be fine.  It will take some time to get your land legs, so to speak.  If she liked SOTW then yes, continue that.  

 

If she likes the Percy Jackson books has she read all of the Rick Riordan books?  There are many.  Perhaps she is interested in continuing the various series as a fun side thing.  

 

For grammar, if you are wanting something simple to implement that does not take much time, perhaps Fix-it Grammar would work well for you.  15 minutes a day at most and only 4 days a week.  There are 6 books in the series.  The first part of book one will almost certainly be review so if you wanted you could have her do two lessons a day, 5 days a week and finish the entire book before Christmas while still only spending about 25 minutes a day on grammar.  She could start Book 2 in January at a normal pace.  Easy to teach.  

 

I would suggest writing down your goals for her and for you for the long term and for this coming year.  Look over those goals.  Ask her what HER goals are as well.  Then make a list of your core subjects and how you plan to tackle those.  Look at your goals.  Will they pair well?  

 

And don't be afraid to start very slowly.  Maybe just math and language arts and the rest interest led for now.

 

There is no way to learn EVERYTHING.  Give yourself and your child some grace and some time.  It will be o.k.

 

I will ask you this...have you contacted any local homeschooling groups?  Perhaps you and she would feel better if you had local people to hang out with periodically that are also homeschooling.  

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

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Welcome! 

Echoing the others. Ages and stages look neat on paper, but real kids don't work that way.

Breathe. Don't panic. You can do this. 

Just pick up where she is and go from there. Definitely get her input about things like literature, science and history. My 10 yo, 5th grade Dd (last year) had some strong opinions on these things!  ;)

 

You don't have to jump in to everything at once. Many people start with a couple of subjects, get those going, then add in some more, until they are up and running with a full schedule. This is not school, it's home education. Utterly different paradigm. 

 

Allow yourself and your daughter some time to adjust to homeschooling. It's okay if a curriculum choice doesn't work. Sell it and buy a different one. Or shelve it for another try later. These boards are a fabulous resource for information about curricula and teaching ideas, so take the time to really read. 

 

 

 

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Welcome. The first year of homeschooling is a little nuts, lol. It just is. There will be amazing days and there will be days that feel wasted. But, life is like that even without homeschooling, no?  It takes a while for BOTH of you to find your groove, so be patient and forgiving while you both learn the steps to this dance. 

 

The logic stage is best thought of as a developmental stage, not a thing you do.  It just happens.  I highly recommend you get a couple of Susan Wise Bauer's audio lectures.  Consider "The Joy of Classical Education" It is 3.99 for an Mp3 download. You can listen to it through your computer or put it on your Mp3 player (I use my iphone). 

 

https://peacehillpress.com/p/the-joy-of-classical-education-introduction-to-classical-education-at-home/

 

There is also "Homeschooling the Real Child"

https://peacehillpress.com/p/homeschooling-the-real-child-live-mp3/

 

 

There are lots of other audio lectures there, all by Susan, such as on teaching writing, history, and how to prepare for high school etc and I have found them all valuable. But for a new homeschooler I think the first two are especially worth it. But as you move on with homeschooling, please consider the other lectures as well.

 

And kids don't jump into the logic stage, rather they approach it, they grow into it. They don't suddenly develop the skills and it is almost always asynchronous. The charge forward and retreat, and it is all NORMAL! When I was getting ready to transition my kid into high school I had a total freakout.  My kid was NOT ready for high school level work...look at that stuff! What have I done wrong?  A more experienced homeschooler gently reminded me that 8th graders are 8th graders, not 11th graders. No one is expected to jump into high school with all those skills, or why have high school?

 

So, I will remind you (hopefully gently) that 5th graders are not 8th graders. They don't arrive in 5th grade with their logic stage skills honed and ready to go.  A very few are, true, but most are stumbling in the general direction. They just need a hand, a bit of guidance and a place to focus their energy.  They will make wrong turns and get a little lost, but so don't we all. A few will have to be hauled in the right direction, lol.

 

Just FYI, I joke that you know your kid is moving into the logic stage when they watch Scooby doo and say "That couldn't happen. How could Shaggy and Scooby always have those costume with them all the time?"  It's that sort of growing up relationship with the world, the not accepting everything at face value, that's all that is meant by it. It's being too clever by half and taking joy in catching their parents making mistakes.  It's just that they are growing up.  They aren't little kids anymore, they can fully understand sarcasm and irony and are beginning to try it out themselves. Or maybe that's just my kids, lol.

 

 

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Thank you all for your responses! It was quite a relief to know I'm not alone in this. Teaching a 2e, strong willed kid is hard at times. I sat down with her and showed her the suggestions in the book and she says she is ready as long as I hold her hand and make it fun. We can figure out what works for her together. I will let her fly as high as she wants and take it day by day. The kid is much brighter and more confident in this than I am sometimes. 

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FWIW, I tend to think that WTM pins the stages, as much as they exist, a little too early for most kids.  I think if I were going to assign typical grade levels to stages I'd have grammar at 4-6, logic at 7-9, and rhetoric at 10-12.  But keep in mind it's just a helpful model, not something set in stone, and there are elements of every kind of thinking at every age.

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