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Can we discuss the concept of "political" (without specific politics)


Carrie12345
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I've been thinking a lot about people (actual people and others who may share the same sentiment) who are doing the whole "I won't unfriend people for having different political views" thing, and wondering how "different political views" is interpreted.

 

Obviously I don't want to bring actual political views into this discussion, so there's no way I'm touching the concept of "I'm voting for X."  But people do share their opinions on matters that politicians and lawmakers address.  It seems to me that these matters then get labeled "political", thereby becoming a point that can no longer be considered something that should be taken into consideration when deciding whether or not you like someone and want them in your life.

 

It's one thing to be able to continue to respect a person who wants to raise taxes while you want to lower them, but don't most stances come from a person's morals, values, and ethics?  The things that define who they are?  If we aren't supposed to build or end relationships based on those factors, what else is there?

 

I'm not trying to say it's impossible to appreciate someone with a few contrary views.  I just don't understand why it's expected.  If I were to say, "I don't like my neighbor because he talks over me in every conversation," people would get that.  If I stop visiting a friend because her face is always in her phone, few people would blame me.  If I avoid people who are constantly trying to sell me something, EVERYONE (but them) understands that.  But then, if I don't want to associate with someone who denounces something that is a part of my heart, of my core beliefs, of ME, I'm some unreasonable political beast.

 

I know many people still believe politics and religion should be taboo conversations, but I'm feeling more and more strongly that that's a big part of how we've gotten here.  But I've only had 1 cup of coffee this morning.

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There are issues that get labeled political.  Like me being accused (here) of being political because I am anti gun.  Nothing political to me about any of that.  Just like I would never tell someone their pro life or pro choice stance is political.  What does that even mean?  Sure different parties tend towards different views on these issues, but that is not across the board true.  I don't talk about my feelings towards guns because I hope people vote a certain way.  Not at all.  Most in the parties that are more in favor of gun regulation are still way too gun happy for my taste anyway.  

 

I am careful about who I discuss certain issues with (outside of message boards).  I do tends towards relationships with people who have somewhat similar views.  I have tried to overlook some stuff, but it sometimes becomes problematic.  For example, I met someone locally who was very religious, but we seemed to hit it off anyway.  That worked out well for awhile, but more and more I felt like the person was trying to slip in little provoking/contentious comments.  Stuff like..my brother says he is atheist, but I don't think anyone is really an atheist.  I didn't bite.  But after awhile it got too tiring.  We had a few other views that were light years apart.  She once went on and on about Target and their anti boy/girl toy labeling stuff.  First I could care less about that crap.  Second our local Target didn't even take the signs down.  I don't know what on earth she was going on and on about.  It was not just any one little thing.  It was several things where I thought we have almost nothing in common here so....

 

Facebook is an odd thing for me.  I have on-line friends there and I follow one local homeschool group there that announces activities.  Other than that there are very few local people I have contact with there.  I have no family in my list.  Everyone is only people who share my views (especially regarding religion).  I just want to keep it as a place I can not worry about offending anyone. 

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I agree with you.

Some differences in views, I can agree to disagree, and we can still remain friends. We can have discussions about issues on which we hold opposite opinions. We can be of different religions and be friends.

 

Certain opinions, however, will make me dislike the person who voices them openly. I see no common basis with people who consider certain subgroups of the population, based on their ethnicity, skin color, gender, or sexual orientation, as humans of lesser value. I cannot be friends with people who are openly racist, condone violence, make fun of people with disabilities, say that all gays should be shot, just to name a few examples. Those things cross a line beyond which I cannot remain friends and have no wish to associate with this person. And yes, I do judge that person's character for it and find it wanting.

 

ETA: I come from a  culture where there is no taboo about discussing religion or politics. Those are fascinating, deep subjects, and a discussion can be intellectually stimulating and enriching for all involved. In fact, these subjects absolutely should be discussed!

 

Edited by regentrude
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Oh and honestly, the hot button issues that get a lot of attention come election time are things that often don't get any attention once the election is over.   I think they choose to talk about those issues only because they are things that a lot of people can relate to, but in many cases I wonder how much they even care about the issue. 

 

I am bracing myself for the political questions when I visit Germany.  It happened to me during another election.  I don't have a lot to say about it.  I suspect I tend to side with the majority of Germans I'll encounter, but I still don't want to talk about it. 

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I agree with OP that at least sometimes, a person's "political view" can be a reason to end a friendship.  

 

What I think is important is to know why a person holds a given view.  This is where a friendship can be made or broken.  But if you choose to not be friends with a person simply because they are affiliated with a certain party or because they are announcing where their vote is going, then no, those aren't reasons to break up, so to speak.  

 

If they state those reasons, and they are diametrically opposed to your own ethical standards, then yes, that's worth giving deep thought to and deciding why exactly you are friends with this person.  

 

Facebook is one of those weird things where I might find out some things about some friends that sort of force my hand so to speak, and would cause me to end friendships.  This is why I'm no longer on FB.  If my hand were forced, as in, people advertising clearly their stance on an issue and their reasons for holding that view and those reasons were totally opposed to my moral compass.... well, I can't un-know what I know now, so I'd have to end it.  

 

For example, I am more sympathetic to party X than to party Y.  However, I have very specific reasons for voting X, and they are NOT AT ALL why many loud and obnoxious people vote X.  It makes me cringe to be put into the X category, because I know people will assume my reasons are the same reasons other X's give.  So if I were to publicly parade about shouting X, I feel quite sure that I'd be mis-judged by many, perhaps even some may feel I'm immoral or unethical to support X.  When my reasons for voting X (ok, let's face it, pinching my nose shut to vote X due to lack of better options) have very little to do even with the X party's own rhetoric.  

 

 

Ah, politics.  :-)  

 

ETA:  Let this go down in WTM as my most convoluted, badly written post to date.  Yikes.  Sorry.

Edited by Monica_in_Switzerland
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It's one thing to be able to continue to respect a person who wants to raise taxes while you want to lower them, but don't most stances come from a person's morals, values, and ethics? The things that define who they are? If we aren't supposed to build or end relationships

I agree with you. This current political climate is making a lot of things hard to ignore, so it can be hard - and maybe incompatibly hard - to continue to view someone as a friend if they support a political agenda that goes against your deepest values.

 

I generally avoid going political on FB, but when I did bring up a topic about a candidate on FB, some of the responses showed me a side of some of my "friends" that honestly unfriended them in my heart if not on FB. When a person views racial segregation as "a good thing," for example, well, we can't really be friends anymore. That's coming from a heart-level POV that I cannot accept.

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I am bracing myself for the political questions when I visit Germany.  It happened to me during another election.  I don't have a lot to say about it.  I suspect I tend to side with the majority of Germans I'll encounter, but I still don't want to talk about it. 

 

Just tell them you agree and don't want to talk about it. 

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. I also think the polarizing social issues of late are mixing with the politics and there feels like more division. I've hidden several posts on facebook lately, not really anything spewing hatred - then I'd probably remove them- but just something that pushes my buttons. 

 

I don't discuss politics in real life except with a select few people, then we agree to disagree or try to understand each other's point of view.

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Part of the issue is whether people can have rational conversations without falling into distracting rhetoric. My elderly neighbor and I chat about local politics but we cannot talk about national. Just the way it is.

 

I have tried very hard to walk away from vitriol with a shake of my head, but when someone expresses opinions that are so contrary to my very being, how can one maintain a bond? I always want to think that if I invited someone to have dinner with me, we could find common ground though. The Pollyanna in me!

 

Something else here: if publicly expressed opinions include crude language, misogyny or racism, how does one even begin to have a rational conversation, let alone maintain respect?

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In this article on why third parties aren't doing well, the polarization of the electorate is discussed : http://www.npr.org/2016/07/12/485275509/americans-really-dislike-trump-clinton-so-why-arent-third-parties-doing-better . Here is a quote that was really shocking to me: 

 

One astounding measure of this [polarization] : As of 1960, only 4 percent of Democrats and 5 percent of Republicans said they would be "displeased" if their son or daughter married someone of the opposite party, according to a 2012 study from Stanford University. In 2010, the shares who would be "somewhat or very unhappy" were 33 percent for Democrats and 49 percent for Republicans.

 

If you wouldn't want your kid to marry someone of the other party, I guess you wouldn't want them on your FB friends list. I have friends on both sides of the aisle who post wildly partisan memes.  Over the years, I've just blocked the sites where the memes come from and I don't see the crazy partisan stuff and we remain friends. 

 

On the other hand, as Quill said, on a specific moral issue, such as racism (which I don't regard as a political issue) , I would feel differently.  

 

 

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It's one thing to be able to continue to respect a person who wants to raise taxes while you want to lower them, but don't most stances come from a person's morals, values, and ethics?  The things that define who they are? 

 

YES. I don't align myself with any political party and no longer participate in politics. That doesn't mean I don't have very strong views on things like racism, war, the plight of refugees, and the sanctity of life. All those issues transcend politics and are hugely related to who I am as a person and what I believe about life. In the same way, I think I can learn a lot about other people as I listen to their views on these issues.

 

That said, it's possible for me to have more respect for someone who has carefully thought through their position and disagrees with me than for someone who unthinkingly holds to the "party line." A certain degree of open-mindedness (on both our parts) helps, too.

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Something else here: if publicly expressed opinions include crude language, misogyny or racism, how does one even begin to have a rational conversation, let alone maintain respect?

 

And this goes both ways.  I have strong views leaning to one side (which you may or may not guess about me), but I often like to entertain the other side.  The exact opposite side.  When I do that, the people who always agree with me freak out.  They just can't do it.  And I don't use rude language.  I just say well what about this other side.  Nope...they are closed minded about that.  Usually my reputation for not being a bigoted arsehole saves me in the end, but I go away realizing these people don't want to have a real conversation, but they are often the same people who claim the side that doesn't agree with them just can't have a real conversation.  What?! 

 

It's difficult to find people who are open enough to do that even if you are 100% respectful about it.

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I think one of the best exercises is debating a topic taking on the side you don't personally agree with.  It makes you see the reasoning of the other side if you bother to really get into it and go into it open minded.

 

But I guess I get why this is difficult.  Our views probably have reasons we aren't even aware of ourselves.  And then there are a lot of things we have views on that we don't actually know anything about.  We just choose a side that seems in line with how we feel generally, but we have no personal experience with it.  We just assume.  Which sure I get that.  We can't know the details about everything.  It's a difficult experience when you do learn about those details and then are faced with the fact things are NOT how they seem and you realize a lot of people are running around with false ideas. 

 

 

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I am not finding that most people are thinking thru the issues before they decide. Maybe its because Iive in a diverse hcol area, but most people seem to be protecting their pocketbook.

 

Then there are the people who have firm beliefs that they are above the law and may not just discriminate but do harm because their belief is that certain people are theirs to eliminate, economically or bodily. Comes back to protecting their pocketbook and not finding ways to share resources. I cannot be friends with them. I can however present my viewpoint at school board and town meetings, even though they will just continue with their exclusionary policies since there is no vote.

Edited by Heigh Ho
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And this goes both ways. I have strong views leaning to one side (which you may or may not guess about me), but I often like to entertain the other side. The exact opposite side. When I do that, the people who always agree with me freak out. They just can't do it. And I don't use rude language. I just say well what about this other side. Nope...they are closed minded about that. Usually my reputation for not being a bigoted arsehole saves me in the end, but I go away realizing these people don't want to have a real conversation, but they are often the same people who claim the side that doesn't agree with them just can't have a real conversation. What?!

 

It's difficult to find people who are open enough to do that even if you are 100% respectful about it.

When I was growing up, my dad and I had "dicussions" (arguments) and then we'd swap sides midway. It was good training for the debate team when I had to argue more than one side of an issue.

 

To me discussion is key. Not bandying about quick bumper sticker lines.

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Usually my reputation for not being a bigoted arsehole saves me in the end, but I go away realizing these people don't want to have a real conversation, but they are often the same people who claim the side that doesn't agree with them just can't have a real conversation. What?!

 

It's difficult to find people who are open enough to do that even if you are 100% respectful about it.

Absofreakinglutely.

 

I think what I realized this morning is that I've been making an effort to hide, or at least buffer, who I am and how I feel, and I'm disappointed in myself. It's one thing to walk the line here, where I may have to sensor details, but there's typically rational discourse around an idea. But why, in my real life, would I hide my heart to keep other people comfortable? If I sit down instead of standing up for what I believe, why believe it?

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And this goes both ways. I have strong views leaning to one side (which you may or may not guess about me), but I often like to entertain the other side. The exact opposite side. When I do that, the people who always agree with me freak out. They just can't do it. And I don't use rude language. I just say well what about this other side. Nope...they are closed minded about that. Usually my reputation for not being a bigoted arsehole saves me in the end, but I go away realizing these people don't want to have a real conversation, but they are often the same people who claim the side that doesn't agree with them just can't have a real conversation. What?!

 

It's difficult to find people who are open enough to do that even if you are 100% respectful about it.

I'm slowly learning that no one likes a rational thinking peacemaker. It makes me very sad (and often lonely).

 

In my family, attempting to give any grace (for lack of better word) to "the other side", whatever that may be, is the ultimate betrayal and colors me childish and ignorant. I'm barely on speaking terms with them any more because conversations are so impossible. They just tell me what is "right" and everything else is clearly "wrong". We generally have the same viewpoints and political leanings, but I cannot abide by their black and white thinking. Unfortunately that divisive close mindedness is far from unusual these days. Maybe it's always been.

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Absofreakinglutely.

 

I think what I realized this morning is that I've been making an effort to hide, or at least buffer, who I am and how I feel, and I'm disappointed in myself. It's one thing to walk the line here, where I may have to sensor details, but there's typically rational discourse around an idea. But why, in my real life, would I hide my heart to keep other people comfortable? If I sit down instead of standing up for what I believe, why believe it?

If what is in your heart infringes on someone else's liberty, it needs to not come out.(assuming you live in the USA). One heartfelt message I have recd many times in my life is that women should not have an education. Should that type of message come out, as word, as policy, or as physical violence or murder to enforce it?

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I think one of the best exercises is debating a topic taking on the side you don't personally agree with. It makes you see the reasoning of the other side if you bother to really get into it and go into it open minded.

 

But I guess I get why this is difficult. Our views probably have reasons we aren't even aware of ourselves. And then there are a lot of things we have views on that we don't actually know anything about. We just choose a side that seems in line with how we feel generally, but we have no personal experience with it. We just assume. Which sure I get that. We can't know the details about everything. It's a difficult experience when you do learn about those details and then are faced with the fact things are NOT how they seem and you realize a lot of people are running around with false ideas.

I find it so difficult to do this, though, when it is at the heart of my cherished values, KWIM? I can easily see, even debate, the opposite side of some issues, because the line is not that obvious to me and I don't see harm in either view. Whether the dress is gold and cream vs. Blue and black, for example. But some of the Big Issues going on right now strike at the most important things: are we all entitled to the same freedoms or are some people supposed to be barred from those freedoms until they can prove they aren't The Bad Guys? Are all people entitled to have love in their lives, from another consonsenting adult, even if that family concept doesn't look typical to many Americans? It's hard for me to really even step into the opposing view on certain things because it feels to me like stepping into shoes of hate and mistrust of anyone who isn't just like me.

 

I don't know...this very struggle has been thematic for me right now because some of my closest loved ones are resonating with a political view that is SO far afield from my peace-loving center. I don't know how to really muddle through this. It's causing me a lot of personal pain.

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Everything is political on some level. I mean, obviously government policies and elections are political, but so are how you shop and eat, where you decide to live and why, how you raise your children, how you direct their education. It's all political at a certain level - it all touches on beliefs that relate to policy and public good. Thus, the idea that we can't talk about anything political is absurdist to me. (The forum's ban on partisan and election politics makes sense though - don't get me wrong.)

 

I agree with others that this election has made it hard not to draw more lines in the sand. I mean, I *want* to have friends on the opposite side of the spectrum from me. However, every time I have someone on my FB who is on the "other side" and posts routinely about politics, it seems they end up posting things that I find personally abhorrent on the topic of race and sexual orientation. It's just... so frustrating. I don't want to live in the echo chamber, but there are lines. And the people who I'm friended with who are on the opposite side who don't post that stuff are usually the sort who rarely post anything political.

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If what is in your heart infringes on someone else's liberty, it needs to not come out.(assuming you live in the USA). One heartfelt message I have recd many times in my life is that women should not have an education. Should that type of message come out, as word, as policy, or as physical violence or murder to enforce it?

I might need more coffee to fully grasp what you're saying.

 

If there are people around me who believe things like that, I would rather know than not.

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Absofreakinglutely.

 

I think what I realized this morning is that I've been making an effort to hide, or at least buffer, who I am and how I feel, and I'm disappointed in myself. It's one thing to walk the line here, where I may have to sensor details, but there's typically rational discourse around an idea. But why, in my real life, would I hide my heart to keep other people comfortable? If I sit down instead of standing up for what I believe, why believe it?

 

I have had similar thoughts, but I'm not sure what the right thing to do is.  To me keeping the peace has value too.  Even if that means I bite my tongue... a lot.

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Political is one thing, obnoxious is another.

 

I am happy to have friends IRL and online that run the gamut politically.  As long as they are not a$$holes about it.  State your opinions, but don't make crude, disparaging comments about a person or group.  I reserve the right to hide any post or walk away from any conversation that I'm not enjoying, but you can still be my friend as long as you respect me too.  :)

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I find it so difficult to do this, though, when it is at the heart of my cherished values, KWIM? I can easily see, even debate, the opposite side of some issues, because the line is not that obvious to me and I don't see harm in either view. Whether the dress is gold and cream vs. Blue and black, for example. But some of the Big Issues going on right now strike at the most important things: are we all entitled to the same freedoms or are some people supposed to be barred from those freedoms until they can prove they aren't The Bad Guys? Are all people entitled to have love in their lives, from another consonsenting adult, even if that family concept doesn't look typical to many Americans? It's hard for me to really even step into the opposing view on certain things because it feels to me like stepping into shoes of hate and mistrust of anyone who isn't just like me.

 

I don't know...this very struggle has been thematic for me right now because some of my closest loved ones are resonating with a political view that is SO far afield from my peace-loving center. I don't know how to really muddle through this. It's causing me a lot of personal pain.

 

What helps is finding accurate information.  If you are only looking at the "feelings" related to a topic, that's not going to be much of an exercise.  You want to figure out WHY anyone would feel that way.  What basis in truth do your own feelings have? 

 

Like local woman going on and on about the Target thing.  She made a comment about how she is mad that Target is now so confusing when she goes there.  Ya know what?  The local Target did not even change their signs at all.  She was so blinded by her feelings regarding the issue that she didn't even see it. 

 

I do think many people "feel" rather than think.  (Me included...I don't always think.) 

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I find the idea that political opinion is a litmus test for friendship to be very foreign.  If I had been raised that way, I wouldn't have many friends.

 

So, it's hard to explain this anecdote without getting too into partisan politics, but I'll try.

 

At our tiny co-op, one of the kids has been actively arguing that he feels certain political candidates and opinions are treated unfairly. Ds has argued he doesn't think it's unfair, that it's right to argue against ideas you think are really wrong and the people who hold them. They had the following conversation (more or less):

 

Kid: But if I believed that all people of a certain religion or race were bad, you wouldn't just stop being friends with me. It's just my opinion.

Ds (shocked): Yes I would! That would be offensive and racist!

Kid (super hurt and surprised): You would stop being my friend?

Ds: If you really thought that, yes. That's horrible.

 

And, honestly, I was like, Go, ds. Because do we really need friends who are overt racists?

 

So, do I have a litmus test for opinions about free trade? Nope. Limited vs. expanded government? Health care? Foreign policy? Political party? Death penalty? Education policy? Nope, nope... But there's got to be a line somewhere after which it's like, you know, it's not that we just don't agree, I actually think your views are offensive enough that maybe we shouldn't be friends.

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If views are SO radically different, I can totally see why a friendship would not work. 

 

Well I do know one person who is famous for her extreme obnoxious political views and statements.  And while she has gotten better about staying away from politics in conversation, I don't think I could be her friend.  For one thing, a person so easily swayed to believe that way, and so willing to talk that way knowing it hurts people, has bigger issues than just disagreeing with me.  That said, I do allow her in my house and around my kids.  :P

 

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So, it's hard to explain this anecdote without getting too into partisan politics, but I'll try.

 

At our tiny co-op, one of the kids has been actively arguing that he feels certain political candidates and opinions are treated unfairly. Ds has argued he doesn't think it's unfair, that it's right to argue against ideas you think are really wrong and the people who hold them. They had the following conversation (more or less):

 

Kid: But if I believed that all people of a certain religion or race were bad, you wouldn't just stop being friends with me. It's just my opinion.

Ds (shocked): Yes I would! That would be offensive and racist!

Kid (super hurt and surprised): You would stop being my friend?

Ds: If you really thought that, yes. That's horrible.

 

And, honestly, I was like, Go, ds. Because do we really need friends who are overt racists?

 

So, do I have a litmus test for opinions about free trade? Nope. Limited vs. expanded government? Health care? Foreign policy? Political party? Death penalty? Education policy? Nope, nope... But there's got to be a line somewhere after which it's like, you know, it's not that we just don't agree, I actually think your views are offensive enough that maybe we shouldn't be friends.

 

Racism is not a political view.

 

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Well I do know one person who is famous for her extreme obnoxious political views and statements.  And while she has gotten better about staying away from politics in conversation, I don't think I could be her friend.  For one thing, a person so easily swayed to believe that way, and so willing to talk that way knowing it hurts people, has bigger issues than just disagreeing with me.  That said, I do allow her in my house and around my kids.  :p

 

 

I don't encounter a ton of people who share their views in this realm.  This always surprises me when I hear it. 

 

I don't mean on-line.  That's always easier for most people!

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We can agree to disagree.  Either way, they certainly exist in all political parties.

 

 

I didn't say they didn't.

 

I think part of the problem - one that feels especially difficult in this election - is that if a policy position seems to have no sound basis beyond a racist motivation, then it gets hard to know what to do. People are adopting a belief based on fear of others. It's just really tough to know where exactly to draw the line.

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We can agree to disagree.  Either way, they certainly exist in all political parties.

 

 

Yeah to me if the full range of views can exist in every party (let's get real here..in the two parties that have any power here), then how is that really political?  One party might be more associated with specific views, but there are plenty of examples of views that are exactly the opposite within that party. 

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So, it's hard to explain this anecdote without getting too into partisan politics, but I'll try.

 

At our tiny co-op, one of the kids has been actively arguing that he feels certain political candidates and opinions are treated unfairly. Ds has argued he doesn't think it's unfair, that it's right to argue against ideas you think are really wrong and the people who hold them. They had the following conversation (more or less):

 

Kid: But if I believed that all people of a certain religion or race were bad, you wouldn't just stop being friends with me. It's just my opinion.

Ds (shocked): Yes I would! That would be offensive and racist!

Kid (super hurt and surprised): You would stop being my friend?

Ds: If you really thought that, yes. That's horrible.

 

And, honestly, I was like, Go, ds. Because do we really need friends who are overt racists?

 

So, do I have a litmus test for opinions about free trade? Nope. Limited vs. expanded government? Health care? Foreign policy? Political party? Death penalty? Education policy? Nope, nope... But there's got to be a line somewhere after which it's like, you know, it's not that we just don't agree, I actually think your views are offensive enough that maybe we shouldn't be friends.

Bingo. Yes.

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Yeah to me if the full range of views can exist in every party (let's get real here..in the two parties that have any power here), then how is that really political?  One party might be more associated with specific views, but there are plenty of examples of views that are exactly the opposite within that party. 

 

A political view does not necessarily mean the view of one of the two established parties. DH and I find ourselves in the situation that our political views do not neatly coincide with either party - they are still political views.

 

Politics includes all aspects of governance and control in a human community. Thus, I would argue, racism, sexism etc become political as soon as they drive decisions about governance. To dislike one's neighbor of a certain religion/skin color/ethnicity etc is not a political act; to argue and lobby for excluding people of that religion/skin color/ethnicity from rights other citizens have most certainly is political.

Edited by regentrude
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What helps is finding accurate information. If you are only looking at the "feelings" related to a topic, that's not going to be much of an exercise. You want to figure out WHY anyone would feel that way. What basis in truth do your own feelings have?

 

Like local woman going on and on about the Target thing. She made a comment about how she is mad that Target is now so confusing when she goes there. Ya know what? The local Target did not even change their signs at all. She was so blinded by her feelings regarding the issue that she didn't even see it.

 

I do think many people "feel" rather than think. (Me included...I don't always think.)

Right, but there is still the problem that not all people are having debates based on sound rhetoric. So, suppose I deliver some piece of iron-clad, logical rhetoric to my friend, Joe. But Joe isn't going to change his mind because I just delivered an iron-clad bit of logical rhetoric. He's just going to keep braying about building a wall or whatever. He's wrapped up in the propoganda he's adopted from his favorite news outlet and iron-clad, logical rhetoric is not even relevant to the conversation any longer.

 

There's a host of evidence that learning logical evidence that contradicts one's beliefs makes the person entrench further into their belief. That's how two sides can hear a candidate's wife give a speech and one person goes, "OMG! If I'm her English professor, she gets an F! Plagerism, blatant ad can be!" While their friend is going, "See? The Mainstream Media will do anythig they can to try and make that candidate look bad."

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Right, but there is still the problem that not all people are having debates based on sound rhetoric. So, suppose I deliver some piece of iron-clad, logical rhetoric to my friend, Joe. But Joe isn't going to change his mind because I just delivered an iron-clad bit of logical rhetoric. He's just going to keep braying about building a wall or whatever. He's wrapped up in the propoganda he's adopted from his favorite news outlet and iron-clad, logical rhetoric is not even relevant to the conversation any longer.

 

There's a host of evidence that learning logical evidence that contradicts one's beliefs makes the person entrench further into their belief. That's how two sides can hear a candidate's wife give a speech and one person goes, "OMG! If I'm her English professor, she gets an F! Plagerism, blatant ad can be!" While their friend is going, "See? The Mainstream Media will do anythig they can to try and make that candidate look bad."

 

The 7 blind men and the elephant.

 

Even you don't have the whole picture.

 

Is it so important to change minds vs. be respected for having your own opinion?  IMO everyone should vote their own conscience and I will vote mine.

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A political view does not necessarily mean the view of one of the two established parties. DH and I find ourselves in the situation that our political views do not neatly coincide with either party - they are still political views.

 

Politics includes all aspects over governance and control in a human community. Thus, I would argue, racism, sexism etc become political as soon as they drive decisions about governance. To dislike one's neighbor of a certain religion/skin color/ethnicity etc is not a political act; to argue and lobby for excluding people of that religion/skin color/ethnicity from rights other citizens have most certainly is political.

 

I see it the same way.

 

Except we really only have 2 parties with any real power nationally.  And I think that is unfortunate because it's assumed members of each party mostly agree with the main views.  Although at this point I'm not entirely sure what either party really stands for anymore. 

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Right, but there is still the problem that not all people are having debates based on sound rhetoric. So, suppose I deliver some piece of iron-clad, logical rhetoric to my friend, Joe. But Joe isn't going to change his mind because I just delivered an iron-clad bit of logical rhetoric. He's just going to keep braying about building a wall or whatever. He's wrapped up in the propoganda he's adopted from his favorite news outlet and iron-clad, logical rhetoric is not even relevant to the conversation any longer.

 

There's a host of evidence that learning logical evidence that contradicts one's beliefs makes the person entrench further into their belief. That's how two sides can hear a candidate's wife give a speech and one person goes, "OMG! If I'm her English professor, she gets an F! Plagerism, blatant ad can be!" While their friend is going, "See? The Mainstream Media will do anythig they can to try and make that candidate look bad."

 

Joe sounds too far gone.  :lol:

 

And the news...mostly awful.  I don't believe a lot of it. 

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I've been thinking a lot about people (actual people and others who may share the same sentiment) who are doing the whole "I won't unfriend people for having different political views" thing, and wondering how "different political views" is interpreted.

 

Obviously I don't want to bring actual political views into this discussion, so there's no way I'm touching the concept of "I'm voting for X."  But people do share their opinions on matters that politicians and lawmakers address.  It seems to me that these matters then get labeled "political", thereby becoming a point that can no longer be considered something that should be taken into consideration when deciding whether or not you like someone and want them in your life.

 

It's one thing to be able to continue to respect a person who wants to raise taxes while you want to lower them, but don't most stances come from a person's morals, values, and ethics?  The things that define who they are?  If we aren't supposed to build or end relationships based on those factors, what else is there?

 

I'm not trying to say it's impossible to appreciate someone with a few contrary views.  I just don't understand why it's expected.  If I were to say, "I don't like my neighbor because he talks over me in every conversation," people would get that.  If I stop visiting a friend because her face is always in her phone, few people would blame me.  If I avoid people who are constantly trying to sell me something, EVERYONE (but them) understands that.  But then, if I don't want to associate with someone who denounces something that is a part of my heart, of my core beliefs, of ME, I'm some unreasonable political beast.

 

I know many people still believe politics and religion should be taboo conversations, but I'm feeling more and more strongly that that's a big part of how we've gotten here.  But I've only had 1 cup of coffee this morning.

Carrie, thank you so much for starting this.  This business of finding a way to talk across difference is so essential, and feels so.... urgent in the face of all the violence and upheaval here and elsewhere in the world, that even though like Monica I feel like my dim glimmers of thoughts and emotions are so all.over.the.place as to be Perfectly Useless... at the same time, I also feel a burning conviction that this is the work -- figuring out a way back to each other -- that all people of good will are called to do right now...

 

 

 

re whether avoiding religion and politics helps or hurts:

...

ETA: I come from a  culture where there is no taboo about discussing religion or politics. Those are fascinating, deep subjects, and a discussion can be intellectually stimulating and enriching for all involved. In fact, these subjects absolutely should be discussed!

Like many Americans, I was raised to avoid subjects that might be uncomfortable.  I'm coming to believe that replicating this taboo is counterproductive.  Problems don't get solved by avoidance.

 

There's certainly a distinction between surface interactions with near-strangers or casual acquaintances, versus with people in deeper and ongoing relationships.

 

(And as an aside -- at least I think it's only aside, maybe it's actually a larger insight -- I wonder how much of our current polarization / echo chamber / stridency / whipped up fervor is fed by social media demons.  I've given up FB for the duration of the election cycle.  Maybe I'll go back, but maybe not.  It doesn't nurture my better self.)

 

 

 

..

I think what I realized this morning is that I've been making an effort to hide, or at least buffer, who I am and how I feel, and I'm disappointed in myself. It's one thing to walk the line here, where I may have to sensor details, but there's typically rational discourse around an idea. But why, in my real life, would I hide my heart to keep other people comfortable? If I sit down instead of standing up for what I believe, why believe it?

 

I'm struggling with something like this myself.  As you say it's a fine line, to be authentic and ethical on the one hand, and not stir-the-pot on the other.  

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