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reading books with hard-to-pronounce names


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While reading books with foreign names, what do you do?

In fiction set it foreign lands, or fantasy/sci-fi, characters and locations that I don't always know how to pronounce. As a child I was taught to identify the word with the character and NOT worry about saying it. This works well as long as that's the only foreign word with that letter, but add in too many names/locations with the same letter and that gets confusing.

Back to the question, what do you do? I'd like to teach my kids a better way. I'd also like them to be able to pronounce them (There are times you need to read out loud). How to dojo that?

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I use my generic foreign phonics filter on those words (for example, 'a' will get pronounced 'ah', not 'ay' like in English), or a more specific one if I happen to know the language or feel like it's probably more similar to a specific language I know. That said, occasionally I encounter a name where I feel torn between two pronunciations, and I end up going back and forth in my head between them, often ending up mentally saying both pronunciations while reading (which drives me batty). In those cases, I'm more likely to cave and look up the correct pronunciation (my most recently looked up name was Kieran).

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For fantasy names, I figure however you interpret it is as right as anything else. If the author wanted it said a certain way, they should provide a key or not use any completely weird strings of Welsh-looking consonant combinations.

 

For foreign names... I mean, sure, I try to look it up or check and I have a general sense of a number of common languages so I have a head start. I know Chinese, for example, and studied some Russian, some Japanese... But really, in the end, I think you just do your best and don't worry about it too much. I whole-word read for the most part so if it's piles of names I'm often skipping them and not pronouncing them at all. If I'm reading something aloud to my kids, I try to look it up. We read an historical fiction book about the Mayans recently and I tried to look up the pronunciation so I could say the names semi-correctly.

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I typically try to get the audiobook from the library, just to sort of scan through it to get the pronunciations, then go back to reading silently. 

 

ETA: My library has tons of audiobooks I can listen to online, so it's pretty easy for me to get the audiobook via computer, then I can just skip around (to, say, the chapter in question) to hear the pronunciation of names of locations and characters, etc. So, I might hop on to the audiobook when a new character is introduced, learn how to say her name, then I go back to reading. I like being able to say the word in my head the way it is intended. This problem doesn't come up often, so it's not like I need to do it all the time, but this strategy is a big help with the occasional fantasy or foreign novel, etc. 

Edited by EKT
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I hadn't thought of that. Do YOU look them up this way? Even if it's just a book you are reading silently?

Not usually, I don't stress over pronunciations in general; mostly i make a guess and go with it, it's not as if someobe is going to test me on my pronunciation.

 

If I were worried though about getting it right I would look it up. I can't imagine just not pronouncing a name at all.

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For most novels, I just take my best guess based on what I know of foreign names and phonetic rules. If I am reading about historical figures, I will look up the pronunciation to honor the person.

 

The Chronicles of Prydain is the only fictional series I have read that has thrown me for a loop. Fflewddur Fflam is definitely the oddest name I have ever seen in print!

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I love languages, and I am trying to help my kids develop a love for languages, too.  We all love Google Translate!  It will (try to) identify the correct language and then give you a pronunciation.  We are immigrant stock, so I also use my family names to help them see how names from different languages are pronounced.  It is not a formal study, at all. It just comes up in conversation.  When we encounter a foreign name or phrase in a book, we try to guess what language it is and see how close we can get to the right pronunciation.  When my kids decided to create their own countries, we used Google Translate to look for words that would serve as good names for their countries.  (Dd chose Pacemia, from the Latin pacem, meaning peace. Ds chose Vesting, from a Scandinavian word for strength.)  

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I Google "pronounce _____" for books I'm reading aloud, if I have no idea. But I let my kids see me stumble over them first, just for fun. :)

 

We're currently listening to an audiobook in which the name "Gautama" is pronounced "Gwatumuh" repeatedly. Maybe that is one acceptable pronunciation, but it took context for me to figure out who Gwatumuh was.

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When I'm reading it to myself I take my best guess, unless I end up in Luuknam's situation.

 

When I'm reading aloud I take my best guess, but then add an apology to my listeners the first few times. I'm quicker to look it up in these situations.

 

Anything in French and I'm sunk. I would rather try Navajo!

 

My kids don't seem troubled by this at all. Earlier this week I had to interject that it is not pronounced yo-se-MIGHT, but Yosemite. (giggle)

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I pronounced it Her-Me-Own until I saw the first Harry Potter movie.  No biggie.  :-)  

 

For fictional characters, I just make something up that is more-or-less phonetic.  Many fantasy writers have indexes in the back of the books with pronunciation.  

 

For history, I'd probably try a bit harder for accuracy.  This is why I love the SOTW audiobooks and the D'allaire's Greek Myths audiobook and a number of other similar audiobooks. :-D  

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For history, I'd probably try a bit harder for accuracy.  This is why I love the SOTW audiobooks and the D'allaire's Greek Myths audiobook and a number of other similar audiobooks. :-D  

 

But even then, people from different countries will pronounce names differently. When I took Art Appreciation in college, my teacher pronounced Van Gogh "van go" (as in "van go vroom-vroom"). Um, no, definitely not:

 

http://nl.forvo.com/word/van_gogh/#nl

 

Same with plenty of other historical/mythological figures/place names, etc (I placed an order for a lemon shun-tee-yee cake today, and the baker corrected me to shan-til-lee - I checked Merriam-Webster, and I was not wrong (neither was the baker, but anyway) - I'm talking about Chantilly, for anyone having trouble figuring it out).

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But even then, people from different countries will pronounce names differently. When I took Art Appreciation in college, my teacher pronounced Van Gogh "van go" (as in "van go vroom-vroom"). Um, no, definitely not:

 

I have only ever heard his name pronounced as "van go". That was interesting

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I have only ever heard his name pronounced as "van go". That was interesting

 

Oh, I've never heard an American say his name correctly. And much hilarity has ensued the one or two times I've tried to teach people the correct pronounciations (2 Dutch g's, in one word, is way too much for almost any American). My point was just that I'm not *too* concerned with correct pronunciations of historical figures - not saying I just blatantly say the wrong thing, but what everybody in one country thinks is correct can still be quite wrong (and worse, if you pronounce it the correct way, even college art professors might not have a clue who you're talking about wrt the Van Gogh example).

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But even then, people from different countries will pronounce names differently. When I took Art Appreciation in college, my teacher pronounced Van Gogh "van go" (as in "van go vroom-vroom"). Um, no, definitely not:

 

http://nl.forvo.com/word/van_gogh/#nl

 

Same with plenty of other historical/mythological figures/place names, etc (I placed an order for a lemon shun-tee-yee cake today, and the baker corrected me to shan-til-lee - I checked Merriam-Webster, and I was not wrong (neither was the baker, but anyway) - I'm talking about Chantilly, for anyone having trouble figuring it out).

 

This is true.  I read a funny story a while ago about an exchange student in France who was listening to a fascinating lecture about a man named "Day Cart".  When the professor was done, the girl raised her hands and explained that Day Cart was very similar in philosophy and mathematical insight to a man she had read about extensively:  Des-Car-Tez.  (Descartes)  :-)  

 

I think the pronunciation has to be close enough that others know who you're talking about.  And since we're most likely to be talking to people in our own language/culture, knowing how the locals pronounce is probably close enough.  

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Oh, I've never heard an American say his name correctly. And much hilarity has ensued the one or two times I've tried to teach people the correct pronounciations (2 Dutch g's, in one word, is way too much for almost any American). 

 

It is one of the names we learned by subtitles, otherwise I would have never known Americans refer to Van Gogh when they say 'Van Go'.

 

In Belgium several cities have a French and a Flemish name. So for topo dd had to learn both.

 

Bruxelles - Brussel

Gand - Gent

Anviers - Antwerpen 

are the easier ones.

 

Lille - Rijsel

Bassily - Zullik

Goyer - Jeuk

Are harder.

 

Problem is that the GPS stick to Dutch pronunciation, so we don't recognize the French names...

It would be nice if the GPS could switch to French when crossing the language border.

 

Some have also a German or English name, so we have some work to do :)

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Bruxelles - Brussel

 

Gand - Gent

Anviers - Antwerpen 

are the easier ones.

 

Lille - Rijsel

Bassily - Zullik

Goyer - Jeuk

Are harder.

 

I'm pretty sure I'd always seen Lille on Dutch (NL) maps - never heard of Bassily/Zullik or Goyer/Jeuk.

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I have only ever heard his name pronounced as "van go". That was interesting

 

Let me guess: you heard the name pronounced by Americans, right? Not actual Dutch people?

 

It really bugs me how names of historical figures are mangled. I hate that I have to mispronounce names so that people understand whom I am talking about.

 

ETA: And for people who will insist that languages are living and rules should be descriptive and not proscriptive: this is different. These are names of people; they were pronounced a certain way. We should give them the respect and pronounce them so the person would have recognized his own name.

 

Edited by regentrude
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Same with plenty of other historical/mythological figures/place names, etc (I placed an order for a lemon shun-tee-yee cake today, and the baker corrected me to shan-til-lee - I checked Merriam-Webster, and I was not wrong (neither was the baker, but anyway) - I'm talking about Chantilly, for anyone having trouble figuring it out).

 

Arrgh. I had waiters pronounce gnocchi "knotshi". Nope. It's Italian. cch is "k". And gn is a nasal sound similar to ng.

 

But I think this is par for the course in a society where people are not educated about foreign languages.

Edited by regentrude
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I know, but not in Flemish.

If a Fleming talks about lille they refer to a small place in the province of Antwerp.

Flemish and Dutch are not always the same ;)

 

Oh, I know Flemish and Dutch aren't always the same. I was just pointing out that (surprisingly?) on Dutch maps, they do put the French name Lille on the map.

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Names I can usually use my knowledge of phonics and foreign languages to make a phonetic stab at the word.

 

Icelandic volcanoes, however, are in the must google category. The one that blew up a few years ago, I had to Google the pronunciation several times before I could sound the word out on my own. I think it might have been Eyjafjallajökull.

 

Here is a handy list of volcanoes in Iceland. Most of the longer ones are must google.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_volcanoes_in_Iceland

Edited by ElizabethB
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