Ok thoughts in this...SPD...reflexes...VT

[mom22kids]

So as you may remember I took my dd for Vision testing to inquire about starting her on Vision Therapy.  Here was the thread:  http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/617921-vision-therapy-assessment-yesterday/

 

So our OT came today and I gave her the run down on the preliminary results (in thread above) knowing that I will get a more formal report in Aug.  But none of those details are really relevant to my current...dilemma/mind bender?

 

So in a nut shell the VT consists of them first integrating the primitive reflexes and then moving on to fixing her visual struggles.

 

When the OT came today - whose opinions I regard highly - I gave her the synopsis.  She, like myself was thrilled with the improvements in depth perception etc.  She was not shocked either about what they observed with her near vision.  When I told her about how they checked her primitive reflexes things got interesting.

 

This is C&P'd from our therapy journal but this is the synopsis of what I told her they tested like and what they saw.

 

First they tested her Tonic Labyrinthine Reflex by getting her into the Superman pose  My suspicion is that think this is retained in Sara but I believe it is not.  Next they had her get into child’s pose (yoga) and at the count of three lift her bottom to get her into an “On all fours†position while simultaneously lifting her head and looking forward.  I think this was testing the Sagittal Tonic Neck Reflex and I think they feel this reflex is fine.

 

Then while on all fours they rotated her head left and right checking her Asymmetrical Tonic Neck Reflex (ATNR) and it was evident in how she adjusted with her shoulder and elbows that this reflex is still retained.  Next while still in this position they ran a smooth wand down her spine and she wiggled and wriggled indicating that her Spinal Gallant Reflex is still active.

 

Lastly they sat her on the mat with her legs fully extended in front of her.  They placed a bolster behind her (lower back) and asked her to fall back and trust that they would catch her.  She was virtually unable to do this.  She never allowed any part of her body to relax even once fully back she never allowed her head to fall into their hands.  I got the impression that this was the most extreme reaction that they had seen.  I am also assuming that this was a measure of her Fear Paralysis Reflex but again I am mostly guessing as I still do not have the formal test results.  The testers opinion was that 3 of the 5 were still active.  

 

My opinion is that all 5 (all 7 actually) are still active.

 

So for a fact I know that they tested her TLR improperly because they only asked her to assume the position and did not ask her to hold it for more than seconds.  Our OT agreed 100%.  Second OT said that when the tested for Spinal Gallant that because of her particular SPD that a light touch would (and did) activate the reflex but that a more firm touch would not have.

 

This led to a whole convo about SPD and primitive reflexes.  According to my OT she says that with SPD you can never truly integrate the reflexes.  That you can GET them integrated but that if the SPD is triggered - bad sensory day etc that they kick back in.  That they will flare up and activate when her SPD flares up.  The goal for someone with SPD is to "integrate" the reflexes over and over while teaching the child/person how to manage the SPD to prevent the flare ups that reactivate the reflexes.

 

Worth noting that this OT has SPD and all her reflexes are not integrated.

 

So she says that

a) If the VT place is waiting to have these reflexes integrated before they begin working on the vision component I could go WAY over the 38 weeks that the VT place predicts it will take.

 

b) they might think they are integrated - because it is possible to integrate them - but that if there is an SPD event that activates 1 or all of them that we will just be back at square 1 potentially week after week.

 

c) If they are unable to integrate them (which will be tricky given the stage we are in currently with her SPD) than she might just be lumped into the category of people who VT just didn't work for, for some unexplained reason.  But of course the reason is that you cannot ever truly integrate the reflexes of a person with SPD.

 

So my mind is blown and I am trying to digest all this.  Thoughts?

 

Of course she thinks I should look into getting her glasses and/or hear out the therapeutic options they feel will help with her current visual struggles.  But to be realistic (even to them) in explaining that they will not achieve integrating her reflexes permanently.

 

I just don't know what to think?!?!

[PeterPan]

Well what is this OT proposing to do?  Is there a cost difference between the OT and the VT for sessions to work on them? Why was the OT not working on them before now?

[kbutton]

Well what is this OT proposing to do?  Is there a cost difference between the OT and the VT for sessions to work on them? Why was the OT not working on them before now?

 

I am wondering the same.

 

Also, the VT may be more nuanced than that. My son's Moro reflex is not totally integrated, but there is VAST improvement, and he's much more functional. VT did not worry about everything being perfect, but they also didn't rush. They did eye stuff a the same time.

[Tiramisu]

I think one of my kids has/d issues with retained reflexes. I didn't know it about them at the time but when I learned about these tests, I remember that they were done and the OT talked about problems. I thought they were strength problems but now I suspect they were more.

 

Anyway, my covd guy never talked to me about reflexes and his testing didn't seem to include them at all. But he is a leading VT researcher and he is loved by families locally for the help he has given their kids.

 

So the DD I suspect has retained reflexes did VT without having them addressed and it was fine. Thirteen weeks of VT for CI and tracking. Done. Problems fixed.

 

I can't give any advice and I can't confirm the retained reflexes 100%. But I would probably go ahead with what I thought I could manage.

 

Dealing with the reflexes first would be ideal, but I believe many are helped from VT even without addressing that piece.

Edited July 21, 2016 by Tiramisu

[mom22kids]

Well what is this OT proposing to do?  Is there a cost difference between the OT and the VT for sessions to work on them? Why was the OT not working on them before now?

 

Well she isn't suggesting that I don't do the VT. She just wants me to be clear that if I am paying weekly and the proposed plan is that we first integrate the reflexes and THEN do the VT that my 38 weeks could be unrealistic and/or I may be flushing money down the drain as these reflexes will keep popping up?  I got the impression that she agrees that the Vision needs to be fixed and she seemed to be a fan of getting her glasses to make up for the diopter issues they are seeing. 

 

Basically I said that I would go in and explain to the VT about my concerns regarding them wanting to integrate relfexes BEFORE we get started on the VT and explain that her SPD may interfere with that progress and is there an option to sort of shift the initial focus from integrating reflexes to just getting started on the eyes.

 

Our OT does work on integrating reflexes (in unconventional ways) but equally spends her focus on teaching my dd to learn the cues to keep herself regulated.  So we follow the zones of regulation.  Not sure if anyone is familiar?  Three colors Blue is Eeyore (too low) Red is Tigger (engine running too high) and Green is Winne the Pooh.  You want your engine to run in Green.  When you start to feel your self running too low or too high - which happens when your sensory system is overwhelmed you do certain activities to bring you back to green.  The activities/movements are dictated by what color you are in.

 

So by teaching her to prevent these dips into red and blue she is learning to manage her SPD symptoms and keep her sensory system running smoothly.  When she is in green her primitive reflexes can be integrated thus minimizing their negative impact.  BUT...if she doesn't read her body carefully and allows herself to run deep into red (over-regulated) or into blue (under-regulated) her primitive reflexes will kick back into gear in an attempt to help her.

 

So yes while we work on Integration through play we equally work on teaching her to read her body as well as a lot of vestibular/propriopreceptive work.  This has had the biggest effect.  I see the improvements in her also.  She is a child who mostly goes to blue (Eeyore) and I used to have to be the one to catch it for her.  Now she is able to tell and often asks to do some therapy to fix it or on occasion invents her own funky stuff to help herself.  In fact recently I commented to her how proud I was that she caught herself and did her own therapy and got herself out of blue and she replied.  I am actually still "blue" on the inside you just can't tell on the outside anymore.  But inside I am Blah!.  That was super impressive!  6mths ago she would not have been able to articulate that.

 

And yes OT is cheaper than VT by $30 a session.

Edited July 21, 2016 by mermaid'smom

[mom22kids]

I am wondering the same.

 

Also, the VT may be more nuanced than that. My son's Moro reflex is not totally integrated, but there is VAST improvement, and he's much more functional. VT did not worry about everything being perfect, but they also didn't rush. They did eye stuff a the same time.

 

I am hoping they are willing to proceed and not be hung up on HAVING to get these reflexes integrated first??  I am mostly shocked to learn that people with SPD will never fully accomplish integrating them!  I sort of had this image in my mind that once we get them dealt with that a great many of our problems would resolve themselves so digesting the facts that this isn't likely is a lot to digest.

[mom22kids]

I think one of my kids has/d issues with retained reflexes. I didn't know it about them at the time but when I learned about these tests, I remember that they were done and the OT talked about problems. I thought they were strength problems but now I suspect they were more.

 

Anyway, my covd guy never talked to me about reflexes and his testing didn't seem to include them at all. But he is a leading VT researcher and he is loved by families locally for the help he has given their kids.

 

So the DD I suspect has retained reflexes did VT without having them addressed and it was fine. Thirteen weeks of VT for CI and tracking. Done. Problems fixed.

 

I can't give any advice and I can't confirm the retained reflexes 100%. But I would probably go ahead with what I thought I could manage.

 

Dealing with the reflexes first would be ideal, but I believe many are helped from VT even without addressing that piece.

Thanks for sharing!  This makes me hopeful that she could still benefit from some form of VT!

[PeterPan]

I think you'd need data to make an accurate statement on integrating reflexes in the SPD population, and I don't know the data.  I know just annecodotally I've heard enough of a *range* of stories to know that it's not cookie cutter.  There might be more going on.  If your dc has SEVERE sensory integration issues, it's true she might not respond well to regular VT.  But right now your OT is giving you anxiety over just the fact that SPD is going on?  Fine, whatever.  There's a continuum, things improve.  I'm so over downer therapists.  I think never from one practitioner really just means they haven't found a way.  Doesn't mean NO ONE has. That's not data driven either, just my opinion.

 

The stuff she's doing with Zones sounds really good!  I went to the ZoR training (level 1).  It's good stuff!  My ds isn't there, so it's good your dd is and that the instrction is connecting!  

 

You can usually still get SPLINTER SKILLS even when you don't have everything perfect.  You're just going to have to try some things.  It might be this VT place is doing a bang-up job with retained reflexes.  Don't pay a lot ahead.  Pay only weekly or for a month, start in, see how it goes, kwim?  Personally, I think it's reprehensible not to work on the reflexes.  I get that the things she's doing are good, but she just sounds really, well I'm just saying that wouldn't sit cool with me.  But a lot of OTs are hairbrained.  

 

If it fails, it fails.  It doesn't mean you shouldn't TRY.  If that eye doc can't get them to budge enough to get her vision to improve, then another provider.  You'll just keep looking.  As long as you're trying and not committing to long-term, you're cool.

[PeterPan]

nt

Edited July 21, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Tiramisu]

Just adding that we are dealing with SPD, too. I have no idea about that and reflexes but generally SPD has flared with anxiety very obviously, though it can go both ways. However, that seems to be getting better over time. My DD is 16 and can wear a uniform and boots now but when she was younger just getting her dressed and putting shoes on was a huge ordeal, or simply impossible.

 

I also have a younger DD who did not seem to have retained reflexes with an OT eval last year, but I don't know how thorough they were in checking. That DD had VT, too, and the VT helped dramatically with her tactile sensitivity. She says it's just coincidence with Grandma discovering Hanna Andersson but other stuff also improved at the time so I connect it with VT.

[mom22kids]

I think you'd need data to make an accurate statement on integrating reflexes in the SPD population, and I don't know the data.  I know just annecodotally I've heard enough of a *range* of stories to know that it's not cookie cutter.  There might be more going on.  If your dc has SEVERE sensory integration issues, it's true she might not respond well to regular VT.  But right now your OT is giving you anxiety over just the fact that SPD is going on?  Fine, whatever.  There's a continuum, things improve.  I'm so over downer therapists.  I think never from one practitioner really just means they haven't found a way.  Doesn't mean NO ONE has. That's not data driven either, just my opinion.

 

The stuff she's doing with Zones sounds really good!  I went to the ZoR training (level 1).  It's good stuff!  My ds isn't there, so it's good your dd is and that the instrction is connecting!  

 

You can usually still get SPLINTER SKILLS even when you don't have everything perfect.  You're just going to have to try some things.  It might be this VT place is doing a bang-up job with retained reflexes.  Don't pay a lot ahead.  Pay only weekly or for a month, start in, see how it goes, kwim?  Personally, I think it's reprehensible not to work on the reflexes.  I get that the things she's doing are good, but she just sounds really, well I'm just saying that wouldn't sit cool with me.  But a lot of OTs are hairbrained.  

 

If it fails, it fails.  It doesn't mean you shouldn't TRY.  If that eye doc can't get them to budge enough to get her vision to improve, then another provider.  You'll just keep looking.  As long as you're trying and not committing to long-term, you're cool.

 

I agree that I need more than ONE person's opinion regarding whether or not you can integrate reflexes of someone with SPD - which is why I started the post - to see of anyone had real life experience with the situation.  But maybe I need to find a SPD forum?  There is no real info about it on the internet.  I've been looking.   But I think there are exceptions to every rule.  And in fairness she said they can be integrated - but unlike the majority of the population people with SPD will have trouble KEEPING them integrated.

 

But she didn't give me anxiety about the fact that she has SPD going on...I guess my post implied I was freaked out by it?  But it was more that it was such a head trip that I have to readjust some goals and expectations in regards to getting these reflexes integrated.  I just had no idea that it was unrealistic!  I think she was equally surprised after all our conversations that I wasn't aware of this! LOL

 

But she isn't a downer therapist or harebrained and I would hate to portray her that way.  Nor is she perfect.  When she first came to us I felt like she was sent by God. She was a freaking messiah to me because she not only helped us when no one else knew how to but she was brilliant in her approach.  The impact she has had on my dd is shocking.  But a year and a half into this relationship with her I see her more accurately.  I know she is not perfect.  I know what her flaws are.  I know how her past experiences have colored her perceptions. 

 

She is not against VT.  She has other clients who do VT and she thinks VT works wonders on those who need it and can benefit from it.  Interestingly enough - she does not like the Dr at this particular VT place.  Years ago she worked in a clinic and this eye Dr. came in and spoke about VT (when she was first opening her clinic) and how she could be a valuable asset in some of the therapy these OT's were doing.  Apparently she spoke a lot about reflexes and blah blah blah and had a lot of her info wrong.  She also gave them the false impression that she was the one in there  working with these kids when in fact she is not.  She is just the name on the clinic and it somewhat runs independent of her although she does the visual portion of the assessments.  All the VT is done by the team over in the VT clinic.  None of the OT's were impressed.  Of course my OT didn't offer any of this up I've had to drag it out of her - and none of it affects my decision to proceed at this clinic.  I personally like the Dr and the place and they seem on top of it all.  But I do have concerns about the lack of certification of the staff AND I know that for example when they checked her TLR reflex that they didn't keep her in the superman pose long enough to know if it was still active.  Little things like that.

 

But undeniably something has been holding me back from the VT and it's not the cost.  When we went there 13 months ago I didn't sign up then.  I knew that she wasn't ready.  Now here we are looking at this option again.  I absolutely have concern that she might be one of those kids who VT doesn't work for.  There are soooo many ways that I could spend this money on other things that she could also benefit from that I don't want to throw it at a "maybe".

 

Lots to think about.

 

 

Edited July 21, 2016 by mermaid'smom

[PeterPan]

Well what VT doc is your OT suggesting she go to?

 

It's not the norm to have EVERY therapist certified.  It's just not.  One therapist certified as the lead, that would be more common.

 

The eye doc matters in the process.  That would be a little red flag to me if your OT is saying the eye doc's approach to reflexes is superficial or inadequate. The eye doc is running everything there and designing the programs.  The therapists are more minions.  The eye doc really matters in this.

[mom22kids]

Well what VT doc is your OT suggesting she go to?

 

It's not the norm to have EVERY therapist certified.  It's just not.  One therapist certified as the lead, that would be more common.

 

The eye doc matters in the process.  That would be a little red flag to me if your OT is saying the eye doc's approach to reflexes is superficial or inadequate. The eye doc is running everything there and designing the programs.  The therapists are more minions.  The eye doc really matters in this.

 

I didn't ask for a suggestion and she didn't recommend one.  She works in a VERY large scope.  She has clients 3-4 hours away from me in every direction so some of those wouldn't be an option for me.

 

I think she just got off on the wrong foot with this eye Dr.  This Dr.  touts herself as being a Vision snob and everything else is secondary.  My OT would likely agree that she is a Vestibular snob and everything else is secondary! LOL  So I think it is just a case of not seeing eye to eye. 

 

The eye Dr does matter but they really are 2 different "businesses".    The eye Dr has one location where she does reg eye exams, glasses etc.  And the VT clinic is down the block.  It is managed by someone other than the eye dr.  She is almost the "brand" name.  There is a VT manager who seems to run that show.  So yes eye Dr. is important but I think this set up might be different.  But the improper superman pose was done by someone who could potentially be tasked with integrating my dd's reflexes.

 

Her bio says she started with them in 2009 as the receptionist and has worked her way up to this position.  So there are a few concerns.  But sadly for my area this is probably one of the better clinics.  And personally there was a LOT about the place I liked and was impressed with!

[geodob]

Though the use of the term 'integration' in regard to primitive reflexes,  is of concern?

 

Primitive reflexes, are survival reflexes that a baby is born with.

Which are reflexive responses, to different situations.

What a baby/infant develops, is the ability to 'Inhibit' each of these reflexes.

Each with a different time-line.

As a baby comes to understand the different situations, and take control over how they respond.

 

But in order to take control, they need to develop the ability to Inhibit each of these Reflexes?

Once they feel safe and secure to do so.

So that a baby then practices inhibiting each of these reflexes.

 

As they practice 'inhibiting a reflex'? This forms what is called a 'nerve ganglion' in the brain stem.

Which inhibits the reflex.

But these reflexes aren't lost, but remain dormant,

So that they still be instantly recalled when necessary.

For example, while you have probably inhibited your Moro Reflex.

If you, suddenly slip and fall backwards?

Your Moro Reflex will most likely instantly emerge, and fling your arms out each side. To catch you as you fall back.

 

Though these primitive reflexes also need to be understood in relation to how a baby develops motor control?

Where a newborn baby doesn't observe that it has arms and legs, and then try to move them?

That it has a head, and maybe can turn it from left to right?

Rather, when a babies cheek is touched? It's 'suckling reflex', will instantly turn its head to that side.

 

So that as a new born baby observes all of these reflexes?

It starts to become aware of all of these 'parts of themselves'?

Which they have no volitional control of ?

So that a baby really uses all of these primitive reflexes?

To learn how to 'tame' their body and limbs!

But with primitive reflexes as 'protective reflexes'?   A baby first needs to feel safe to inhibit them, and learn to take personal control of them.

 

Where a child just needs to feel safe to inhibit these reflexes, and take control of them themselves.

[PeterPan]

If you were going less often, say just once a month or every other week, would that make a farther away VT place more realistic?  

 

With that many reflexes, I guess you have to flow chart this.  You're basically asking who you want to do the reflex work.  If the OT doesn't think it's timely to work on them, then maybe it's not.  Not everything gets done right away.  Can the OT say *when* she'd want to work on them to allow the VT to come into reach?  

 

I agree having a low-trained person who is just doing random stuff they were taught is just NOT enough for a complex situation.  They would have to move you up to someone more qualified.  

 

Someone on the boards here found a PT I think who specialized in vision.  Like you might kind of google for someone (OT, PT, whatever label) who is really known for their bodywork plus vision approach.  

Edited July 21, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[mom22kids]

Though the use of the term 'integration' in regard to primitive reflexes,  is of concern?

 

Primitive reflexes, are survival reflexes that a baby is born with.

Which are reflexive responses, to different situations.

What a baby/infant develops, is the ability to 'Inhibit' each of these reflexes.

Each with a different time-line.

As a baby comes to understand the different situations, and take control over how they respond.

 

But in order to take control, they need to develop the ability to Inhibit each of these Reflexes?

Once they feel safe and secure to do so.

So that a baby then practices inhibiting each of these reflexes.

 

As they practice 'inhibiting a reflex'? This forms what is called a 'nerve ganglion' in the brain stem.

Which inhibits the reflex.

But these reflexes aren't lost, but remain dormant,

So that they still be instantly recalled when necessary.

For example, while you have probably inhibited your Moro Reflex.

If you, suddenly slip and fall backwards?

Your Moro Reflex will most likely instantly emerge, and fling your arms out each side. To catch you as you fall back.

 

Though these primitive reflexes also need to be understood in relation to how a baby develops motor control?

Where a newborn baby doesn't observe that it has arms and legs, and then try to move them?

That it has a head, and maybe can turn it from left to right?

Rather, when a babies cheek is touched? It's 'suckling reflex', will instantly turn its head to that side.

 

So that as a new born baby observes all of these reflexes?

It starts to become aware of all of these 'parts of themselves'?

Which they have no volitional control of ?

So that a baby really uses all of these primitive reflexes?

To learn how to 'tame' their body and limbs!

But with primitive reflexes as 'protective reflexes'?   A baby first needs to feel safe to inhibit them, and learn to take personal control of them.

 

Where a child just needs to feel safe to inhibit these reflexes, and take control of them themselves.

 

Yes that is a GREAT explanantion.  Essentially my OT is saying that my dd hasn't got control over them yet.  That she needs to first learn to control her sensory system.  Once she has better control of her SS she will be able to control her PR better and they won't be so dominant.  She says that currently at the stage we are at my dd is able to supress them for about 24 hours and they become triggered by an overwhelmed sensory system.  So she worries about starting VT at a place who won't move forward until the reflexes are completely integrated.  This is where her doubts come up.

 

[mom22kids]

If you were going less often, say just once a month or every other week, would that make a farther away VT place more realistic?  

 

With that many reflexes, I guess you have to flow chart this.  You're basically asking who you want to do the reflex work.  If the OT doesn't think it's timely to work on them, then maybe it's not.  Not everything gets done right away.  Can the OT say *when* she'd want to work on them to allow the VT to come into reach?  

 

I agree having a low-trained person who is just doing random stuff they were taught is just NOT enough for a complex situation.  They would have to move you up to someone more qualified.  

 

Someone on the boards here found a PT I think who specialized in vision.  Like you might kind of google for someone (OT, PT, whatever label) who is really known for their bodywork plus vision approach.  

 

Well from what i gather...but will get clarity at next appointment.  My OT is currently taking a two pronged approach.  Teaching my dd how to get and keep her SPD under control all while encouraging these reflexes to settle.  So she sees it as equally important.  Learning how to read your body's cues and triggers while doing the "therapy" that integrates reflexes.  The ultimate goal being that she becomes so efficient and skilled at reading her body that she just naturally keeps the reflexes at bay.  Bearing in mind that one big sensory overload or traumatic situation (whether real or perceived) could overwhelm her SS and all these reflexes will kick in instinctively and she will have to start over. 

[PeterPan]

Your OT is WAY more in-tune with the complexity of what's going on with your dd than the VT place will be.  If that VT doc did the eval, she would, if she's worth her salt, say in a HEARTBEAT to defer to the current therapist.  No one reasonable would yank her from one person who is working on it and say no let me work on it.

 

If all you want is some VT exercises, google or get the Kenneth Lane book.  There's lots of stuff out there.  Some is simple, some more complex.  She's probably going to fatigue with them, so anything you do that is just sorta slightly in that vein will be all she can handle anyway.  You wouldn't need to be at push/perfection level right now to be useful.  For instance, BalavisX has them toss balls and beanbags across the midline, following it with their eyes.  I'll bet even that would overwhelm her.  Can she do pencil push-ups?  Do you ever play toss?  She can copy sentences from the board to paper.  Play with a pinata.  

 

Anything sort of overall body motion where she uses her eyes across the midline will be the most safe.  It could console you that you're doing something.  Or google for convergence exercises if you want.  There's something with pointer into a straw that is sort of the starter exercise around here.  You wear a patch and do it one eye at a time.  

 

Here's the book.  It has tons of stuff to keep you busy.  Not saying it's the ultimate, but it's something.  

 

Developing Ocular Motor and Visual Perceptual Skills: An Activity ...

 

There's an app for cats that has them touch dots that appear on the screen.  It's seriously for cats, but it's good VT for people.  :D   So think kinda natural like that.

Edited July 21, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[kbutton]

It sounds like a clash of philosophies in a very gray area scientifically.

 

There are many opinions on how to integrate reflexes. It's not like this is cut and dry. I get what your OT is saying, but I would take what your OT is saying back to the VT and see what they say as well (maybe you did, and i missed it).

 

Our COVD and therapist worked together, but the therapist had a lot of independence, and the work was very customized. I think that counts for a lot. If that's not available to you, then it is going to be harder to decide.

 

I think you are asking the right questions and looking at the right things, but it could go either way. 

 

My son has done some zones work. He wouldn't have even had minimal body awareness without VT to do zones, so it's probably very individual to the child as well. (He's on the spectrum, so he kind of skews things!)

[mom22kids]

It sounds like a clash of philosophies in a very gray area scientifically.

 

There are many opinions on how to integrate reflexes. It's not like this is cut and dry. I get what your OT is saying, but I would take what your OT is saying back to the VT and see what they say as well (maybe you did, and i missed it).

 

Our COVD and therapist worked together, but the therapist had a lot of independence, and the work was very customized. I think that counts for a lot. If that's not available to you, then it is going to be harder to decide.

 

I think you are asking the right questions and looking at the right things, but it could go either way. 

 

My son has done some zones work. He wouldn't have even had minimal body awareness without VT to do zones, so it's probably very individual to the child as well. (He's on the spectrum, so he kind of skews things!)

 

Yeah that is my plan of action - taking this perspective to the VT place and getting their feedback.  That appt is early Aug so in the meantime I will research research research and dig for some more info.  At this point I think VT could still be a viable option for us. 

[Heathermomster]

OP, how old is your DD?  Sorry if you mentioned it somewhere and I missed that info.

[mom22kids]

She is 12 years old.  We also just a call tonight (FINALLY) from the pediatric neurologist to set up an appointment for a full work up which would have NEVER happened had I not found this board and many of you suggested it!!  As well on Thursday she has a CAPD test.  So hopefully some answers soon!

[geodob]

Though you also wrote yesterday: "So yes while we work on Integration through play we equally work on teaching her to read her body as well as a lot of vestibular/propriopreceptive work."

 

Which suggests that she has a difficulty with 'proprioception'?

If so, this could be the underlying issue?

 

It might be helpful to understand proprioception?

Which provides us with a constant awareness of where our body and limbs are, in relation to each other.

How this actually works?

Is that at both ends of every single muscle that we have?

Are what are called 'Proprioceptor' points.

Our brain is constantly recieving input from all of these points.

Which it assembles together, to form an internal 3D map of ourselves.

With our skin providing an overall surface map.

 

But with Proprioceptive difficulties, their is a confusion with the internal 3D map?

So that these Proprioceptor points, can't be located in relation to each other.

 

So that as you noted that as you wrote that she is doing : ' a lot of vestibular/propriopreceptive work.'

I would like to ask about proprioceptive abilities?

[mom22kids]

She has AWFUL proprioceptive!!  I mean awful.  Examples:

 

When she swings on her therapy swings she says can someone push me - even when she is really flying - she is *starting* to realize that she is moving.  We aren't doing Astronaut Spinning because she just had Vertigo but right before we stopped she could spin super fast for a long time and not have any sense of it.

 

She has issues with food being "gross" so we just started blindfolding her while she eats roasted chicken - a fave food but she is grossed out by the skin etc - so she stabs at the plate and has no idea if she gets food on her fork.  She just keep stabbing and lifting an empty fork to her mouth - sometimes it has chicken sometimes it does not.  If she stabs a HUGE chicken leg and lifts it to her mouth and halfway up the leg falls off she is unable to sense the change in weight and still puts the fork in her mouth.

 

She drinks water while she eats and the first time she tried to drink blindfolded she had to lift cup with right hand and find the opening with her left hand and bring the mouth of the cup to her mouth.  She could easily not find the mouth of the cup and pour it over her shoulder. 

 

For fun I placed a full cup of water (big plastic tumbler so heavy when full) and and empty plastic tumbler (very light) - she just randomly grabbed cups and tried to drink out of them.  Blindfolded she was unable to sense which had water. When we gave her one in each hand and she holds them simultaneously she is able to tell which is full of water.

 

Its mind blowing!

Edited July 22, 2016 by mermaid'smom