How and when do you transit from Henle Latin to Wheelock Latin or another Latin program

[JadeOrchidSong]

We have almost finishe Unit 5 of Henle Latin 1. All the Roman wars are getting old. I love the solid grammar instruction and practice. I wonder if you have trasited from Henle Latin to Wheelock Latin. I would like us to finish the rest of Henle Latin 1. But I do not know if we want to continue Henle Latin 2.

Please share your experience of transiting to Wheelock or another program.

Ds11 is doing very well with Henle, but he is bored with it, too. He does not like to study a "dead" language for so long. He has been wanting to study Spanish instead. But I would like both boys to continue Latin and finish the equivalence of Henle Latin 2 before going to Spanish. The main reason is I can study along with them and stay ahead to teach them. We do not need to study the listening and speaking about Latin, which is a huge advantage. As for Spanish, there is almost no way to achieve oral fluency with 3 or 4 years of study unless one is immersed in it, ie, living in a Spanish speaking country. So Latin is a better choice for us because I can teach it very well.

Thanks for your patience for my rambling. :-)

[yvonne]

I'm not familiar with Henle, but Wheelock's starts at the beginning, so you really could transition at any time. It seems like Wheelock's is mostly used with 7th graders and up, so it might be a little early for your younger son.

On the other hand, it looks like he did R&S 7 this year?  If so, he should have more than enough of a grammar foundation to be able to succeed with Wheelock's. You could just go a little slower.

[JadeOrchidSong]

Yvonne, yes, the boys have done lots of grammar. Henle grammar is pretty strong so far.

[mumto2]

Dd did Henle through the middle of book two. To summarize her situation her grammar was great but her vocabulary a bit weak. She switched over to Wheelocks and used this free website http://web.uvic.ca/hrd/latin/wheelock/index.htm to go through the book at her own pace. Things she knew well were simply done online and unfamiliar exercises were done with both paper and computer.

 

Dd started French partway through Henle 1. She learned really quickly thanks to Latin I think. Her French is excellent and she is convinced it is because of Latin.

 

Eta, Dd was a tenth grader when she switched.

Edited June 26, 2016 by mumto2

[Faithr]

The reason why Henle focuses so much on war is that Henle First Year is a prep for Henle Second year which is basically lots of excerpts (redacted and simplified) from De Bello Gallico.  So he is preparing the high school student after 1 year to read some substantial Latin!  I do think it can get a bit tedious though.  You are just on the cusp of things getting better in Henle though, I think.  Once you get through Unit 6 are start reading more interesting things.  One way I've found to put a little life into Henle is to use the Bestia Latin blog. This is a really fun blog with all kinds of resources.  We use it for copy work.  We try to figure out the meanings and the grammar of the mottoes and proverbs.  We look at the silly cat posters.  We sometimes listen to the fables read in Latin.  We do this casually and then we go to quizlet to practice vocab, chant some paradigms to refresh our memories and then launch into an actual Latin assignment.

 

Wheelocks is the gold standard but it does go much faster (and you do read a lot about Roman politics and wars as I recall.  It's been a few years).  Like another poster said it starts from the beginning but with much more vocabulary than Henle.

[Holly]

We'll be adding in Lingua Latina...I think they have a second book too.  It's intended to be a course on it's own, but it also makes a great Latin reader.  Something like this would give you a nice break from Roman wars without having to switch programs completely.

[JadeOrchidSong]

We'll be adding in Lingua Latina...I think they have a second book too. It's intended to be a course on it's own, but it also makes a great Latin reader. Something like this would give you a nice break from Roman wars without having to switch programs completely.

Holly, how are you going to use Lingua Latina as add-on? I have the whole set of 6 Lingua Latina books for Pars I. I just don't know to add it to Henle.

[2_girls_mommy]

The reason why Henle focuses so much on war is that Henle First Year is a prep for Henle Second year which is basically lots of excerpts (redacted and simplified) from De Bello Gallico.  So he is preparing the high school student after 1 year to read some substantial Latin!  I do think it can get a bit tedious though.  You are just on the cusp of things getting better in Henle though, I think.  Once you get through Unit 6 are start reading more interesting things.  One way I've found to put a little life into Henle is to use the Bestia Latin blog. This is a really fun blog with all kinds of resources.  We use it for copy work.  We try to figure out the meanings and the grammar of the mottoes and proverbs.  We look at the silly cat posters.  We sometimes listen to the fables read in Latin.  We do this casually and then we go to quizlet to practice vocab, chant some paradigms to refresh our memories and then launch into an actual Latin assignment.

 

Wheelocks is the gold standard but it does go much faster (and you do read a lot about Roman politics and wars as I recall.  It's been a few years).  Like another poster said it starts from the beginning but with much more vocabulary than Henle.

Thank you for the blog link! That looks great.

[2_girls_mommy]

So those of you that have gone through Henle II, do you just go on IIi after it or have you done something different? I had assumed we would just continue in Henle if dd chooses to continue latin.

[Faithr]

I haven't gotten there yet.  I wonder if talking to Memoria Press would be good.  They seem to assume that high school Latin stops with Henle Second Year.  Surely there are people out there have proceeded farther than that using Henle?  You would think. . .  I have been looking for it and seem to only be able to find the 3rd Year used.  Though Loyola Press, the publisher, says it was republished in 2000 something.  Anyway, I love the way Henle lines up:

 

First Year - most of the fundamentals of grammar

Second Year - De Bello Gallico plus some from the Vulgate Bible (focus is on language study)

Third Year - Cicero (focus is on his style of argumentation)

Fourth Year - more Cicero and Vergil (focus on Christian humanism)

 

Ok, I just did some research.   Memoria Press, Mother of Divine Grace and Kolbe all use only Henle First and Second Year.  MODG goes on to use Wheelocks, labelled as college Latin in 12th grade.  This after completing Henle's first two books.

 

Update!  More research!  It looks like Classical Conversations is selling Henle's Third Year.  I wonder if they have a syllabus developed for it?

Edited June 26, 2016 by Faithr

[2_girls_mommy]

 next assignment to whomever chooses to accept it: How do those programs line up with the NLE 3-5? I have been taking it one year at a time, but I know it then breaks up into poetry and prose.  I wonder what people do for those years?

[Holly]

Holly, how are you going to use Lingua Latina as add-on? I have the whole set of 6 Lingua Latina books for Pars I. I just don't know to add it to Henle.

 

We'll just be adding a chapter a week for some extra reading, starting several weeks into the year.  I only have the LL reader, so I'm not very familiar with the rest of the program.

[JadeOrchidSong]

Thanks, Holly! I will try to do the one chapter a week method and see how it goes. It sure will slow down their progress in Henle, though. Maybe it's worth it.

[yvonne]

What's your ultimate goal with Latin?

If you have a clear goal, sometimes working back from that helps to see through the fog of all the options.

Edited June 27, 2016 by yvonne

[JadeOrchidSong]

I would like them to go up to AP Latin level. But my youngest wants to transit to Spanish. So I might just stop by the end of Henle Latin 2 and let him do Spanish.

[yvonne]

I would like them to go up to AP Latin level. But my youngest wants to transit to Spanish. So I might just stop by the end of Henle Latin 2 and let him do Spanish.

So, maybe assume your goal is AP Latin for now and modify if either or both boys decide not to pursue it down the road.

 

Assuming the goal is AP Latin, it looks like at least one company, Memoria Press, does use a Henle path to get to AP Latin... Henle I, II, III, and then AP Latin the fourth year. So, it looks like 1) Henle can get you where you want to go, and 2) you'd have someone (MP's online classes) to fall back on if you wanted to or had to outsource the higher levels.

 

Since you're not sure how long your children will want to take Latin, it probably makes the most sense to choose an efficient path that makes the most of the years you do put into it. Four years to get to AP Latin is as efficient as I've seen, so MP's four year Henle path works on this front, as well.

 

If you put serious work and time into the study of something, it is really nice to have standardized scores to show for it. It might be worth contacting MP to see what their AP Latin scores are like. It would also be useful to know how well Henle syncs up with the NLE levels and with the Latin SAT subject test. What is MP's average Latin SAT score? If you go the Henle path, will your effort be reflected in good NLE and/or Latin SAT subject test scores?  The SAT Latin exam might make a good transition point for your younger son who wants to move to Spanish. He'll have had enough Latin to have something to show for it (both in the SAT Latin exam score, but also in learning how to learn a language, vocabulary benefits, etc.)  He could certainly feel good about getting to that point, even if it isn't AP!

 

The questions are..... How well does Henle lead to/prepare for AP Latin? (ask MP, or another provider if you can find one)  If you and/or your sons are already finding Henle I a little tedious, are you going to be able to push through Henle II and Henle III? (Maybe someone who's been through all three can help?)

 

Best wishes on your Latin journey!

yvonne

 

Edited June 28, 2016 by yvonne

[JadeOrchidSong]

Thanks, Yvonne! I will ask MP and those who have used MP Henle classes these questions.

[GeorgiaH]

Hi, JadeOrchidSong,

 

Please let us know what MP reports.  We would like to pursue Latin to the AP level, so any information you obtain will be very helpful.

 

Thank you

[Faithr]

I am not an expert, but I do know that if you are breaking Henle's First year textbook into a two year study (as MP does) where you do the first V Units of Henle as year 1 and then do VI-XIV in year two, you will not align with the NLE for their Latin 2.  So if you do this:

 

Some preliminary Latin program - NLE Intro to Latin

Henle First Year Year 1 - NLE 1

Henle First Year Year 2 - NLE 2

 

This won't work very well.  And that's because the NLE falls in March and not at the end of the year.  Year 2 of Henle spends a long time teaching the subjunctive which isn't on the NLE 2 exam.  BUT the stuff that comes after the subjunctive in Henle IS on the NLE 2.  If the NLE fell at the end of the year then it would work much better.  So it is better to:

 

Henle First Year Year 1 - NLE Intro 

Henle First Year - Year 2 - NLE 1

Henle Second - Year 2 - NLE 2

 

MHO.

[yvonne]

We would like to pursue Latin to the AP level

 

 

 

If you're interested in other paths to AP Latin, Lukeion also has a four year path starting with Wheelock's, and Wilson Hill has a five year path using Latin Alive. 

 

We used Lukeion because we like Wheelock's, I knew students who had used Wheelock's to successfully get to the AP exam, and because Lukeion has a proven track record. 

 

Latin Alive is fairly new, but it's supposed to be solid and Wilson Hill has some excellent Latin instructors.

[JadeOrchidSong]

Yvonne,

What is the Lukeion workload like? My boys are not hard workers; however, ds13.8 seems to do well with his outsourced classes of writing and Apologia Physical Science. Maybe starting Latin 1 with Lukeion is a good option for him.

[JadeOrchidSong]

Dp

Edited June 29, 2016 by JadeOrchidSong

[yvonne]

Yvonne,

What is the Lukeion workload like? My boys are not hard workers; however, ds13.8 seems to do well with his outsourced classes of writing and Apologia Physical Science. Maybe starting Latin 1 with Lukeion is a good option for him.

 

Lukeion is definitely a college-prep level, high school course. The website says to expect to spend 7-12 hours/week.

My daughter took Lukeion's Latin 1 & 2 classes in 7th & 8th grades when she was 12 and 13 years old. She probably averaged 5-8 hours/week, but there are a number of variables that resulted in that average. 

 

1) She had completed Latin for Children A&B in 4th & 5th grades. (6th grade Latin plans fell through.) LFC A&B turned out to be excellent preparation for Wheelock's.

 

2) She had completed through Rod & Staff 6 and was doing R&S7 in 7th grade, so she had a very strong English grammar foundation and had no trouble with the Latin grammar in Wheelock's. Only a handful of grammar terms/concepts in Wheelock's were somewhat new to her.

 

3) She is not a diligent or very mature student; she will spend the minimum amount of time needed to do well and 5-8 hours was what it took for her. My sons are much more diligent. I'm a little worried about whether my daughter put in enough time to continue to do well in Latin 3. (But then, I was worried about Latin 2 and that turned out fine.)

 

Despite the fact that Lukeion's Latin class was my daughter's most challenging class this year and the fact that she really does not like to work hard, when I gave her the option of continuing with Latin 3 or not, she chose to continue. When I gave her the option of continuing with Lukeion or moving to something a little "easier," she chose Lukeion. Latin 3 is a big step up because they do word study papers. My daughter saw her older brothers put a ton of work into Latin 3, but she still opted to continue with Lukeion. I think that says a lot for Lukeion and Mrs. Barr! :)

 

Lukeion really has their Latin and Greek courses down to an art. There are quia games to play to practice the vocab and grammar. Expectations are very clear. The teaching is top notch. The key is to be consistent and keep up with each week's work. Do not fall behind!

 

Probably more than you wanted to hear! :)

[JadeOrchidSong]

Thanks, Yvonne!

For your boys, what English and writing do they use?

I am kind of wanting to sign my ds13.8 up for Lukeion Latin 1. With Lively Latin 1, 2 and Henle Latin 1 five units done, he does have good foundation for Latin grammar. It probably doesn't hurt to let him do one year. If he is really too challenged, then I will swith him to Spanish.

[JadeOrchidSong]

Yvonne, one more question. Ds13.8 is signed up for FOEW at WHA and online Hewitt Conceptual Physics with ClovercreekPhysics. If he signs up for Lukeion Latin 1, would it be too much for him? He took outsourced writing and Apologia Physics last school year and did very well but hasn't take any online classes.

By the way ay, what is FOEW workload like?

[yvonne]

PM'ing you, Jade....  So much depends on the child that I can only tell you our experience....

[yvonne]

With Lively Latin 1, 2 and Henle Latin 1 five units done, he does have good foundation for Latin grammar. It probably doesn't hurt to let him do one year. If he is really too challenged, then I will swith him to Spanish.

 

Lukeion has the advantage of semester registration.  Unlike most providers that require you to sign up for the full year, Lukeion allows you to sign up for one semester at a time. If he is too challenged, you can switch back to doing it yourself, at his speed, second semester.

 

Between your son's previous Latin and the R&S grammar, I would think he'd be well-prepared to take on Lukeion. But, really, the key is his study habits and desire. Lukeion students must stay on top of every week's work, or they'll be miserable.

 

ETA:  I should add.... Mrs. Barr lays out a very clear suggested weekly study plan for the class, so a student does have a framework for how to study from the very beginning. He isn't having to flounder about figuring out how best to study the material. And, she provides quia "games" to practice the vocabulary and some of the grammar. The student just needs to put in the time. Over time, he'll figure out how to tweak the plan and use the quia practice to work best for him.

Edited June 30, 2016 by yvonne

[Dmmetler]

Another nice reader is to get the Cambridge Latin books, any edition is fine. They focus on the daily life of a Roman family, and include a lot of nice cultural stuff. If you get the online supplement, there are a lot of links to the British Museum, Cambridge museum and library collections, and BBC that flesh out the cultural part. It's a nice reader, and the online supplement is fairly inexpensive.

[JadeOrchidSong]

Dd did Henle through the middle of book two. To summarize her situation her grammar was great but her vocabulary a bit weak. She switched over to Wheelocks and used this free website http://web.uvic.ca/hrd/latin/wheelock/index.htm to go through the book at her own pace. Things she knew

were simply done online and unfamiliar exercises were done with both paper and computer.

 

Dd started French partway through Henle 1. She learned really quickly thanks to Latin I think. Her French is excellent and she is convinced it is because of Latin.

 

Eta, Dd was a tenth grader when she switched.

I tried the website and like it a lot. Did dd also do all the exercises in the textbook?

[mumto2]

I will be honest and say dd only did the exercises when she knew she needed to. That being said dd was an incredibly mature student who wanted to take the SAT subject exam in Latin and be done. Her situation and what a younger male student most likely needs is probably very different! Just so you know dd does have a younger brother who is also home educated so I have done the teen boy thing! He dropped out of latin at the point we switched to Wheelocks.

 

Wheelocks also has a book titled Scribblers.......http://wheelockslatin.com/scribblers.html which we also have. It is good. Not sure that she did much of it but a solid supplement since you have time.

 

A Pp suggested Cambridge Latin and the Website so here's my 2p.

 

We also have access to the Cambridge Latin website. It's fun. Both dc's enjoyed it when younger. Dd also went through the online Cambridge when reviewing for the SAT Latin exam. We have all the books in our house because I bought them somewhere for a £ each. Some HE people here use the website without the book. Cambridge is not the full package and people know it. You need a copy of Wheelocks or another good grammar to make the program work well becase it's intuitive.

 

Combining the two might work well for a boy especially. My ds likes online much more than books. Cambridge is a huge story that people remember forever. Dd had a conversation with one of my friends about the characters. Friend did it 30 years ago.

 

Since the Subject exam goal came up in Pp I will say dd did take it and did do well. This isn't meant as bragging but I like it when people publish the score, she got a 790. Her subject exam saga was legendary. Her 3 exams was lost by the delivery company and she had to retake two months later after having quit both Latin and German. She did her retake after a quick review and things went pretty well. :) Stressful!