Did you follow TWTM recs for logic? (Critical Thinking Press)

[Amy M]

I'm preparing for my oldest boy's entrance into the logic stage and wondering what to use for logic. I read TWTM to brush up on SWB's recommendations, and she recommends using some Critical Thinking Press workbooks for grades 5-6 as sort of pre-logic exercises. Did anyone use those, and how did you like them? Are they worth the money?

 

I've also been looking at Reading and Reasoning, which I saw at CAP's site. Is this just busy work, or would it be like the Critical Thinking materials? Would it be too much work on language if I used Reading and Reasoning at the same time as a writing curriculum, grammar, spelling, lit guides, etc?

 

I was going to go through the Bluedorn's books for logic in 5-6 grades, but do I also need the Critical Thinking workbooks? Thanks for any advice!

[SarahW]

I need to get back to reading what WTM suggests for CTC (my copy is on DH's kindle). I have done Building Thinking Skills 1 and have just started 2 with my oldest. I also started R&R a few months ago with him.

 

I got R&R because verbal reasoning is a major weak spot with him. He can knock through the figural chapters of BTS in no time, but the verbal chapters were much more difficult. There's some overlap between R&R and the verbal chapters of BTS - analogies, opposites, definitions. But R&R does a LOT more - it gets into thinking about syntax and meaning, paragraph structure, and syllogisms. BTS does have more work with sequencing and graphic organizing. So they're the same but different, pretty much, for the verbal reasoning.

 

R&R is good for explicitly teaching LA thinking to a student who is not LA intuitive. If in your lit guides the student has no problem answering the comprehension questions, and in writing easily grasps the idea of a topic sentence and paragraph unity, then you might not need R&R. But if those things are shaky, then R&R could be good. I don't think the exercises are busywork, but if the student doesn't need to do them, then they could be, kwim?

[SparklyUnicorn]

We liked them, but I don't think they were worth the money. 

 

Never saw the CAP stuff.

 

 

[Amy M]

I need to get back to reading what WTM suggests for CTC (my copy is on DH's kindle). I have done Building Thinking Skills 1 and have just started 2 with my oldest. I also started R&R a few months ago with him.

 

I got R&R because verbal reasoning is a major weak spot with him. He can knock through the figural chapters of BTS in no time, but the verbal chapters were much more difficult. There's some overlap between R&R and the verbal chapters of BTS - analogies, opposites, definitions. But R&R does a LOT more - it gets into thinking about syntax and meaning, paragraph structure, and syllogisms. BTS does have more work with sequencing and graphic organizing. So they're the same but different, pretty much, for the verbal reasoning.

 

R&R is good for explicitly teaching LA thinking to a student who is not LA intuitive. If in your lit guides the student has no problem answering the comprehension questions, and in writing easily grasps the idea of a topic sentence and paragraph unity, then you might not need R&R. But if those things are shaky, then R&R could be good. I don't think the exercises are busywork, but if the student doesn't need to do them, then they could be, kwim?

Thank you! How much time does R&R take? How many days/hours per week? Does one book go through grades 5-6, or do you use it in one year?

[cintinative]

We are using R&R plus some of the Prufrock press logic stuff:  Logic Liftoff, Logic Countdown, etc.  The CAP person said that you could do R&R over 2 years by doing a couple pages a week. You could certainly accelerate that.

 

I bought the CTC book used and did not like it at all. Somewhere on here is a thread about what people dislike about it. 

[Farrar]

I'm not a huge fan of CTC's logic stuff. It's okay... but I like the Prufrock Press stuff better - more streamlined, cheaper. The Logic Liftoff series is a nice one for transitioning from grammar to logic stage. Short, but they cover a lot of ground - there are all different types of pre-logic skills addressed and the skills are named, which is nice and not something I can remember seeing in the CTC stuff, but useful if you're trying to build a vocabulary in logic for a kid (as in, it tells you that it's inference or analogies or deductive reasoning or whatever). They have a sort of gentle introduction to formal logic and notation as well.

[SarahW]

Thank you! How much time does R&R take? How many days/hours per week? Does one book go through grades 5-6, or do you use it in one year?

 

 

Right now we are doing about 1 page per day. It takes about 10-15 minutes or so. My kid's pretty pencil-phobic, so I have to consider how much writing is required. And if the exercise sheds light on a spot he's weak in, it takes longer. 

 

At this rate we'll finish the book (Beginning R&R) in under a year. I maybe should have gotten Level 1 and spread it out, but like I said, R&R is remediating his weak spot, so I'm willing to spend more time on it.

 

There's things in R&R I really like. It nicely brings LA down to the tree level without being trite or treating the student like a moron. And the syllogism work at the end of the book looks really understandable (haven't gotten that far in the book yet). If you get Level 1 or 2 and pick out the things you think your kid could benefit from, it could be helpful.

 

Unless you're seriously remediating, I'd definitely skip the Beginning book for grade 5 or above.

 

Oh, and R&R isn't published by CAP, it's an EPS book. So it's not in the same style as the other CAP books. I can see why they offer it as a supplement though. It is a really good language-based logic introduction for younger kids. But does every kid need a 3 year into to logical language work before studying Logic? I don't know. I probably wouldn't be using it unless it was meeting my kid's particular LA/verbal need right now.

 

I feel like I'm being as helpful as mud. Sorry.

 

Oh, and I flipped though my kindle-WTM, and the rec is BTS 2 followed by CTC's Critical Thinking Skills 1 and 2, right? I'm not familiar with the Thinking Skills books, and not sure which CTC books they are, actually. So I don't know how they overlap with R&R, if at all.

[SparklyUnicorn]

To add, there is nothing wrong with the CTC logic stuff except it is way over priced.  Maybe it works out fine in a classroom situation where the teacher can make copies for everyone.  That might be why the stuff is so expensive.  No clue.  But you pay around $12 and get this very thin book that one could work through in a couple of days. 

[Faithful_Steward]

Some of the WTM logic recs are oop. I'm waiting to see if she has updated recommendations in the next WTM edition.

[kesmom]

I prefer the Prufrock Press books as well. We also play a lot of logic games.

[Lori D.]

We used some of the WTM's recommended Critical Thinking Press materials -- but along with MANY other resources. JMO, but I think the WTM recommendations tend to be limited to developing only one kind of linear/deductive reasoning, and I wanted our DSs to learn a wide variety of critical thinking skills to support critical thinking, logical thinking, and ability to analyze. So over the years (and really, starting in grades 1-2 and on up through high school), we did:

- visual thinking puzzles

- word puzzles

- math-based reasoning puzzles

- out-of-the-box thinking puzzles and games

- strategy games

- logic games and puzzles

- deductive reasoning through mini-mystery book collections and computer games

 

And lots of informal discussions throughout the homeschooling years:

- Socratic-method questions / analysis questions when studying Literature, History and Science (esp. in late middle school/high school)
- informally discussing the "why" and "how" of movies, politics/current events, and of everyday life: "why did he make that choice, and what might the consequences be?" ... "how might that event effect the rest of the region?" ... "what do you think her reasoning for that might be?"
- ask "why"
- understand sequence of events
- see/describe similarities/differences
- make connections
- look for cause and effect
- predict/guess what WILL happen, based on what has already happened

 

All that as a preface to say that while we did use some of the WTM recommended Critical Thinking Press items, there were a LOT of other resources we used as well.

 

In answer to your final question, I think it's nice to have a variety of materials to work with, so you could get all 3 resources you listed in your post, and rotate through them during the year so that no one resource gets repetitive. That would allow your student a bit more time for brain maturing (the logic portions of the brain for the majority of students doesn't *start* to mature until about age 13-14), which would allow your student to do a full-fledged formal logic program at an optimal age, along about 9th or 10th grade.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Lori D.