After Singapore 5...

[sweetpea3829]

Just trying to get a handle on potential math arcs for DS9. He will be starting Singapore 5 this year, as well as completing Beast 4 and starting Beast 5 probably mid year.

 

I have heard that Singapore 6 is not really essential and that some kids can go right from 5 to Pre-Al. He is math-intuitive and I don't think that would be a problem for him.

 

But what should I consider over this next year before making that decision? Or would he be better off to do a 6th grade math? Maybe a 6th and Pre-Al concurrently?

 

Beast says it's students should be able to go from 5 right into their Pre-Al.

 

Thoughts?

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I am in a similar position.  I'll just explain my thoughts, but warn you that I haven't decided what to do yet!  LOL

 

Options:

 

- Continue with SM 6

- Continue with MM 6 (I happen to own it) in the hopes that moving to a text written to the student might help with budding independence  

- Go straight to Singapore's NEM   I'm really leaning towards this program for our algebra and geometry needs.  It's an integrated approach, which appeals to me.  I could also do SM6/MM6 first then move on to this.  

 

- or -

 

- AOPS Pre-A after SM6/MM6.  

 

- or -

- Buy the books used in the local schools for integrated alg/geo. I am tempted by these because they will prep kiddos for working on math in French, it is an integrated approach, and our inspectors will recognize the texts.  On the other hand, it will be more work for me.  lol.  

 

So there you have it, clear as mud!  

 

I am currently leaning towards doing a level 6 math, either SM or MM, simply because my ds is still young- he will be finishing SM5 probably around Christmas of his fourth grade year, and that seems young for going to a pre-algebra program, especially a challenging one, which is my ideal.  A part of me wants to just keep moving because algebra is so much more fun than arithmetic... and another part of me wants to give another year to build up confidence.  Everything I've seen says that SM6 can be done is less than a school year because it's quite short with lots of review... and that sounds like a good plan for my kid who likes to rush and might need another few months of maturity and practice with attention to detail. 

[wapiti]

Are you concerned about fit for AoPS or about prerequisites for the Prealgebra text?  IMO, a math-intuitive 10 y.o. with both Singapore 5 and Beast 5 under his belt would be more than ready for AoPS Prealgebra.  If Beast is a good fit, just go for it.  (This is not a hard decision :))  The only considerations would be the prerequisites, which include operations with negative numbers and though I haven't looked, I imagine that's in the completed Beast 5 somewhere.

 

My vague recollection from reading the boards here is that SM6 (which I've never seen) is some combination of review and taking previously-introduced concepts deeper.  AoPS should that covered.

Edited June 21, 2016 by wapiti

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Looking at your sig, I see our boys are only two months apart in age (mine is jan/07), if that's any help for understanding my above post.

[visitor]

If your DC doesnt have any problem with BA I would go for Pre Algabra after BA5 . BA5 covers 9 chapters from 12 chapters from PreAlgabra AoPs. BA5 is really a good preparation . Lots of Homeschoolers went from SM5 directly towards Pre Algabra AoPs as well.

[sweetpea3829]

Thanks folks! I haven't taken a look at any of the pre-al options yet. It's on my list of things to do this summer. But AoPS is probably my first consideration. I need to take a look at the prerequisites and then cross-reference with what Singapore 5 and Beast 5 will cover.

 

He's already touched on adding and subtracting with negatives and I doubt he'll have difficulty with mult and division. He picks up on math very easily, just in everyday life. Yesterday he was talking about percentages and easily connected them with fractions and decimals.

 

He does fine with Beast, though he does find it to be a challenge, which is expected. His maturity and ability to handle content beyond his ability has improved, even taking into consideration the recent brain drain he's been going through the past couple of months (which I'm attributing to the onset of puberty...but he's been very distracted and getting problems wrong that he definitely should have gotten correct had he paid attention).

 

So I'll take a good look at the Pre-Al options and go from there!

 

And Monica, technically this coming year would be his 4th grade year because he is two weeks after the cutoff, but I already have discussed this with the school and if he ever enrolls, he'll enroll at the next grade up. It presents a bit of difficulty, though, if he enrolls in middle school, as he'll be a year ahead in math even if he is placed a year ahead of where he should be. They don't start pre-al until at least 7th!

[sweetpea3829]

Oh, Monicz, I don't expect DS to finish Singapore 5 until next spring. I held him back a bit so he wouldn't get to Algebra until he had developed abstract reasoning! This past year, with Singapore 4, it was the first year he started in Sept and didn't finish real early. So I expect 5 will take just as long.

[MamaSprout]

I haven't read the other posts. With my young accelerated dd we did some Math Mammoth 6, part of MM 7 (7B wasn't out yet) Russian Math 6 and the beginning Jacobs Algebra. Then we did Derek Owens PreA (all of that over about a year and a half). If I had it to do again I'd probably do Dolciani's Mathematics Structure and Method books 1 & 2.

 

Book 1

Book 2

[Roadrunner]

My non-mathy (relative to my older boy) son just flew past the first two chapters of aops preA after completing SM 5 and all the available Beast. He is 9 and just finished up 3rd grade. I am in shock. My guess is your kid is more than ready for preA. Just go for it.

[wapiti]

It presents a bit of difficulty, though, if he enrolls in middle school, as he'll be a year ahead in math even if he is placed a year ahead of where he should be. They don't start pre-al until at least 7th!

 

This is typical.  I would also expect placement tests.  Cross this bridge when you come to it, but there are some common core topics you may want to look at immediately prior to placement testing.

[Dmmetler]

We went from SM5 to PA. We did spend 2 years on PA, though, although in 20/20 hindsight, we should have just started with AOPS PA instead of doing a year between SM5 and AOPS (we did LOF and Key to Algebra). I was concerned that a 7 yr old was too young and AOPS was too intimidating looking. As it turns out, the only intimidated one was me!

[sweetpea3829]

We went from SM5 to PA. We did spend 2 years on PA, though, although in 20/20 hindsight, we should have just started with AOPS PA instead of doing a year between SM5 and AOPS (we did LOF and Key to Algebra). I was concerned that a 7 yr old was too young and AOPS was too intimidating looking. As it turns out, the only intimidated one was me!

 

[sweetpea3829]

So weird...it won't let me quote and reply!

 

 

Anyways...that's my next question...I've read here and there that some kids are taking 2 years to get through AoPS pre-Al. Is this pretty standard? Or more typical of youngers going through pre-al earlier than would be typical?

 

 

When I sat down with the Superintendent to discuss possible future enrollment options for DS, we talked about a couple of different math arcs for him. The Super seemed surprised that DS would be ready for Pre-Al by his 5th (or 6th grade year, accounting for his close birthday).

 

 

But the most probable arc looked like this (grade in parenthesis would be the grade I would push for if he were enrolled)

 

 

Singapore 5/Beast 4 and 5 for his 4th(5th)-->Pre-Al for 5th (6th)-->Alg1 for 6th(7th)-->Geometry for 7th(8th) {possibility of concurrent Geometry/Alg 2, depending on what he looks like as a student at that time}-->Alg2 for 8th(9th) ~or~ Trig for 8th(9th) if he does concurrent Geometry/Alg 2. Either way, if he enrolled in 8th grade at the PS, he would need to be walked over to the high school for math, as they only go up to Alg 1 at the middle school.

 

 

And then from there, it would depend on what he wants to do with math and science.

 

 

But if he takes two years for Pre-Al...or a year and a half and then dives right into Alg1, that would be fine, too. I just need to know if its pretty standard for a student to take longer than a year in pre-Al...or if it really just depends on the kid.

 

 

Mostly, I want to make sure he has a solid foundation in math AND has covered enough of it to make sure he meets the requirements for the science courses he'll be looking at come late middle school and high school.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Sweetpea3829

[sweetpea3829]

I apologize...the formatting is so wonky and it won't let me edit! I know I had paragraph spacing when I typed it all out...lol.

[Roadrunner]

I think preA is very doable in one school year. Intro to Algebra is much more likely to take more than one academic year. My DS took 8 months to complete preA (he was 9) and 11 months to complete Intro to Algebra. He is just bright, not a gifted kid. I am saying because I know PG kids are something else. He isn't one of them. 

I would count one academic year for preA and possibly 1.5 or + academic years for Intro to A. 

[Dmmetler]

I think DD could have done it in a year. It took about 7months to do AOPS PA as the 2nd PA class. The main reason for adding that year was my confidence. I really didn't believe she could be ready so young, so I slowed her down. She did Intro Algebra in one school year, and the same with Intro Geometry, so even though I slowed her down initially, it hasn't made too big of a difference. I'm debating having her take a year at some point (I really would like to do so this coming year, since she's finished all of the "intro" books) and do a run-through of the challenge problems of all the AOPS books so far, since she'll have time, and make sure she's really consolidated the skills, She's not in favor of the idea, though, so I told her she could buy Intermediate Algebra this week (she's going to be taking a class with RR, and she wants him to sign it), and we may end up doing Intermediate Algebra while also reviewing the older books.

[wapiti]

In part, it will depend on how many challenge problems, how much Alcumus, how much time per day.  I would assume that the younger the kid, the less time per day, though obviously every kid is different.  For not all the challenge problems, one school year is likely to be enough for the Prealgebra text.

[Roadrunner]

I should add though that even at 9, my kid worked at least 1.5 hours per day on math and often much more.

We did every single problem in the book, plus Alcumus and the online class for the second half of the book. It was a looooot of work.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Roadrunner

[slackermom]

Dd took a year and a half with aops pre-a mainly because I started homeschooling her in mid-February of 4th grade, at age 9. We did 5 chapters in the remainder of that school year, and left ourselves all of grade 5 to do the other 10 chapters, along with a few supplements. Pacing was 45-60 minutes per day, 4 days per week, which included time to watch all of the videos from the aops website. BA was only up to 4b at the time.

Dd then attended a charter middle school with an accelerated math program available for their top math students. That put her in an advanced pre-algebra class with other mathy kids in grade 6, so there was some retreading, but it was better than repeating elementary math again. She is THOROUGHLY prepared for algebra now!

[sweetpea3829]

So, would folks mind telling me more about AoPS for Pre-Al and this whole Alcumus thing? What is Alcumus?

[wapiti]

There are so many threads about AoPS Prealgebra - what do you want to know? Ch 2 and 5 were the hardest for my kids.  Second half of the book was easier for them, topic-wise.  Check out the samples.

 

Alcumus is the free online problem solving practice program at AoPS.  Oh, and don't forget about the videos (my kids liked them, but just for fun, not as part of a lesson :tongue_smilie:; I think they watched the LCM one about a hundred times just to watch Richard jump up and down).

[Porridge]

Following. We're in a similar boat. DD will be starting Beast 5 or Singapore 5 (haven't decided yet) this fall.

[Spring Flower]

My DD8 just finished SM5 and is almost finished with Beast 4. I'm going to continue through Beast 5 and start her in AOPS PreA some time this fall. I already purchased the AOPS book and looking at it I feel that we will be fine to start right away. I'm like dmmetler in that I feel nervous about starting too early. In reality probably the only thing holding DD back is me! This thread is helping me to feel more confident in moving along. The main reason I want to move along is that DD is getting tired of doing basic arithmetic. She is anxious to start into algebra. I did buy the exponent Key to Algebra book and she is loving it. I think we will be fine to move on. Good luck in your choice.

[SarahW]

Thanks folks! I haven't taken a look at any of the pre-al options yet. It's on my list of things to do this summer. But AoPS is probably my first consideration. I need to take a look at the prerequisites and then cross-reference with what Singapore 5 and Beast 5 will cover.

 

He's already touched on adding and subtracting with negatives and I doubt he'll have difficulty with mult and division. He picks up on math very easily, just in everyday life. Yesterday he was talking about percentages and easily connected them with fractions and decimals.

 

He does fine with Beast, though he does find it to be a challenge, which is expected. His maturity and ability to handle content beyond his ability has improved, even taking into consideration the recent brain drain he's been going through the past couple of months (which I'm attributing to the onset of puberty...but he's been very distracted and getting problems wrong that he definitely should have gotten correct had he paid attention).

 

So I'll take a good look at the Pre-Al options and go from there!

 

And Monica, technically this coming year would be his 4th grade year because he is two weeks after the cutoff, but I already have discussed this with the school and if he ever enrolls, he'll enroll at the next grade up. It presents a bit of difficulty, though, if he enrolls in middle school, as he'll be a year ahead in math even if he is placed a year ahead of where he should be. They don't start pre-al until at least 7th!

 

Wait, your son and mine nearly share a birthday. Where are you that has a Dec 1 cutoff? I thought nearly all states have Aug or Sept cutoffs, so I've always considered my son to be firmly within the age range for his grade.

 

Your son and mine seem to be in a similar position in math. I've never really done Singapore with him though. My half-baked plan at the moment is to get through the rest of BA4 this summer (radically skipping things he already knows, he's been doing the multiplication algorithm for forever already, what?) and getting aops Pre-A for the Fall, throwing in the BA5 guides for his pleasure. After setting him loose on Prodigy (thanks!) I think he's ready to just move. Ask me again next year, and I'll tell you how that worked out.  ;)

 

As for paying attention....yeah, I hear you there. I don't hear anything about puberty though *plugs ears* waaaah waaahh waaahhh 

[Korrale]

Wait, your son and mine nearly share a birthday. Where are you that has a Dec 1 cutoff? I thought nearly all states have Aug or Sept cutoffs, so I've always considered my son to be firmly within the age range for his grade.

 

Your son and mine seem to be in a similar position in math. I've never really done Singapore with him though. My half-baked plan at the moment is to get through the rest of BA4 this summer (radically skipping things he already knows, he's been doing the multiplication algorithm for forever already, what?) and getting aops Pre-A for the Fall, throwing in the BA5 guides for his pleasure. After setting him loose on Prodigy (thanks!) I think he's ready to just move. Ask me again next year, and I'll tell you how that worked out. ;)

 

As for paying attention....yeah, I hear you there. I don't hear anything about puberty though *plugs ears* waaaah waaahh waaahhh

 

Some places in Canada have a December 31st cut off. NYC is December 31st. I have a friend in a school district in NJ that has a December 31st cut off too. California was December until a few years ago.

In Ohio the cut off is Aug-Sept but there is a wiggle room up to December 31st if a parent requests and a child meets ability. These are the ones I know about.

[Arcadia]

My intense older took a shorter time for SM6+aops prealgebra. My younger wiggle worm choose to skip SM6 and took a longer time with aops prealgebra.

 

My older would rather read a book even if it is a textbook, while my younger rather climb trees (literally). So it wasn't the ability but the temperament affecting the time needed to finish each aops book.

 

. I would assume that the younger the kid, the less time per day, though obviously every kid is different.

We actually have less "free time" for math from 6th grade than in K-5 because of other subjects taking longer due to higher expectations.

 

ETA:

DS11 birthday was just before the december cutoff and entered 5th grade as a 9 year old. DS10 missed cutoff by a few days and was allowed a grade skip in 3rd. He skip 4th grade.

Edited June 23, 2016 by Arcadia

[SanDiegoMom]

My ds started Aops PreA in 3rd in Sept, only did math 4 days a week (sometimes three), took off two months in the summer, and was done by end of October. He did some Alcumus occasionally, but not a lot- only on days that I didn't want him to start a new section or chapter yet. He did almost every problem in the book. If he had been fifth grade and doing math every day, he could have finished, though that's subjective considering it was not only the age but also gettin used to the level of challenge and type of thinking required! That was a big leap:-)

[J-rap]

I only discovered Singapore Math with my younger children.  But after level 5, we moved to Teaching Textbooks Pre-Algebra.

[Janeway]

We are finishing level 6 of Singapore Math.

[happypamama]

My math-oriented 11yo rising 6th grader finished Singapore 5 and will be trying AOPS Pre-Algebra next year.  If it takes him two years, that's fine, and if he finishes it sooner, no problem.

[AEC]

we went from SM5 -> PA for both my DC.  DD was 10 and I was concerned she wasn't ready for AoPS PA so I took her through JA first to buy some time.  In retrospect, she cruised through that and it was a waste of 2 months.  At least she liked the word problems about weasels in hats!

[sweetpea3829]

Well....he took the school's standardized assessment and scored at above 6th grade level and demonstrated beyond proficiency for algebra readiness.

 

So depending on how this coming year goes....I think we'll launch right in to pre-al next year.

[chicagoshannon]

We started AoPS in March after dd (8 at the time) finished Singapore 5.  She isn't having any problems with it.  The lessons are a bit long because they are pretty wordy, but the concepts are easy to understand.  I don't think it will take us more than a year to complete.