Need help with math

[twinbirches]

This is my first post, but I have been lurking on these boards since I started homeschooling my oldest 5 years ago.

 

DS2 will be 6 in September and 1st grade.  I need some help figuring out what to use for math.  This year we have been using RightStart A second edition and it is just not working.  The lessons were taking forever and DS hates playing the games.  He has definitely made progress, but still can not count to 20 reliably and isn't getting the "abacus in your head" thing.  

 

I think he needs a math program that starts out easy so he can feel successful and gets harder in very small steps.  He also gets overwhelmed if something looks like a lot of work so anything more than 10 questions at a time gets a refusal to even try any of it.  Math has been a fight all year and I need to find something that will work.  

 

Help?

 

 

 

 

edited for clarity and to remove extraneous info

Edited June 23, 2016 by twinbirches

[OneStepAtATime]

Look at Ronit Bird.  Try to solidify his subitization skills and work in short segments.  He may be balking because it really is hard and draining for him.  Ronit Bird is really good for this.  Keep math very, very short each day.  Keep it as positive as possible.  

 

FWIW, I failed to recognize just how hard math was for DD, and how draining even 5 math problems could be for her.  It wasn't until the start of 7th grade that I finally got it through my thick head that she needed to solidify the most basic of basic math skills (subitization) and that I needed to keep things short, very simple and not overwhelm her with a ton of verbal explanations.  

 

Hopefully others will respond with more suggestions.  Good luck and best wishes.

[PeterPan]

Well with his age he's a rising K5er, which is probably why he's not getting SLD labels.  My ds got his first SLD label at newly 6, but we had been doing Ronit Bird, delaying diagnosis of the math SLD.  Later psychs added the other two.  Also IQ (which makes the discrepancy apparent earlier) also factors in.  So I don't think you're crazy but I also think sometimes it's this train wreck you watch happening.

 

I'll just ask and you've probably already thought about this.  With the developmental delay diagnosed by the school and these issues with not responding, has ASD been on the table?  What did the np do to eval for it?  Because, honestly, you're probably gonna need a lot stronger tools than what you've got, and Ronit Bird may or may not be it.  RB helped us, yes.  But some kids need more, like specific teaching methodologies (DTT), etc.  Sometimes it takes a few evals to get things sorted out.  You may need a 2nd opinion or a deeper examination.

 

What language testing was done?  CELF?  CASL?  What is happening that is quirky?  My ds has apraxia, so that's always the nail I start hammering, lol.  Really though, when you get kids like this, you can have funky mixes.  My ds seemed to have a lot of speech, till you realized how much he was scripting (repeating things he had memorized from audiobooks or tv).  Like he was scripting massive amounts, and we didn't realize it unless we had overheard the show or the book.  It's only since Christmas that his speech has gone to largely original and the scripting chilled out.  Now he does funkiness with repeated sounds and rhyming.  He's over the moon for rhyming these days and tries to do it a lot.  It always comes out a little quirky and stilted, because he doesn't totally understand it.  For a long time he also didn't understand things like same/different, so he would say words rhymed when they were really the same.  

 

It takes really detailed language testing to dig in on some of this stuff.  There's the CELF/CASL, yes, but I think also the ABLLS and VB-MAPP, yes?  Given the amount of funkiness you've got going on, I'd be pushing for stuff.  Some of them have windows, so maybe he wasn't old enough for some sections before.  Some things become more apparent as their peers pull away and our kids stay behind, meaning what didn't show up at 5 might become glaringly obvious by 6, 8, 9...

[PeterPan]

Adding: I'm no help on the triage.  I never manage to do everything at once.  If you need funding, you may decide that's how you fight first by getting the additional evals.

[kbutton]

How is he with visual input? If you think it's a language-based problem, and not a true math disability, you might try something very different like Miquon. It uses rods, which are intended to help a child conceptualize quantities. Ronit Bird is not something I've used, but I from what I hear, it could roll right into something like Miquon potentially.

[twinbirches]

Look at Ronit Bird.  Try to solidify his subitization skills and work in short segments.  He may be balking because it really is hard and draining for him.  Ronit Bird is really good for this.  Keep math very, very short each day.  Keep it as positive as possible.  

 

FWIW, I failed to recognize just how hard math was for DD, and how draining even 5 math problems could be for her.  It wasn't until the start of 7th grade that I finally got it through my thick head that she needed to solidify the most basic of basic math skills (subitization) and that I needed to keep things short, very simple and not overwhelm her with a ton of verbal explanations.  

 

Hopefully others will respond with more suggestions.  Good luck and best wishes.

 

I do think math is just very hard for him.  Everywhere I read it said RS A was a gentle intro to math and it is definitely not easy and gentle for him.  Are the games a big part of Ronit Bird?  He doesn't like to play the RS games at all.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 23, 2016 by twinbirches

[PeterPan]

You've been dealing with a lot!  

 

Neurodevelopmental Outcomes in Children With Congenital Heart Disease: Evaluation and Management  I'm assuming you've already read articles like this?  I really don't know anything about CHD, but like you're saying it seems correlated to developmental delays.  If you have read through this, is it common for them to diagnose those developmental delays as autism?  I'm just scanning this article, and it seems like it's something they watch for, especially when you have the convergence of communication issues and overall developmental delays.  

 

Have you googled each of those tests yet?  Let's look through them.  

 

Differential Ability Scales®-II - Clinical Assessment  how they learn

 

NEPSY® - Second Edition - Clinical Assessment ADHD

 

Clinical Evaluation of Language Fundamentals, Fifth Edition (CELF 5)  Did they run the CELF4 or CELF5?  Did they run the pragmatics portion?  He's a little young to have it show anything anyway.  Did they run all the subtests or just some?  (you can see in your report)

 

Motor-Free Visual Perception Test-4 (MVPT-4) | WPS  Maybe you had a typo and it was the MVPT?

 

California Verbal Learning Test® - Second Edition - Clinical Assessment

 

ABAS II - Adaptive Behavior Assessment System® Second Edition  How did he do on this one?  It's an adaptive living test.  I haven't seen it, but some adaptive living scales, like the Vineland, can discriminate ID from ASD, etc.  There will be patterns to what is delayed and the tool can sort that out.

 

Behavior Assessment System for Children, Second Edition (BASC-2)  It looks at emotion stuff like anxiety.

 

Behavior Rating Inventory of Executive Function (BRIEF) | WPS  EF/ADHD

 

So you really don't have any autism-specific tools at this point, which of course means that they didn't see anything to push it there at this time.  At my ds' first np eval, they ran pretty similar tests, minus the adaptive living.  But I would think it would show up in the CELF scores and that ABAS if it were going to push over to autism.  There are things like the GARS, ADI-R, etc. that they can run that are specific.  I'd be concerned about that not responding thing.  

 

Honestly, our first np got it wrong, way wrong.  He ran an ADHD eval, doing most of those, gave us an outdated GARS, blew us off, and gave us a stupid, obviously incorrect explanation (ADHD-inattentive).  Multiple psychs have since confirmed autism with ADHD-combined.  He also missed 2 of the 3 SLDs because it was just too early, even at newly 6.  But 6 1/2, things were becoming more obvious.  Their peers pull ahead.  He's gifted, so you're diagnosing based on *discrepancy* at that point.  

 

I'm just saying don't take the first eval as gospel.  Things unfold over time.  It's not fun to get more labels, but more labels get you more funding and more access.  

 

How were those CELF scores?  Anything unexpectedly low?  The CELF generates scaled scores, where the median is 10 and a standard deviation is 3.  So anything 5 and below is really significant.  At that point you're over 1.5SD from the norm.  

 

Although an SLP will have other detailed language testing (CASL, etc.), some of it is going to be very similar to the CELF.  He definitely should have his speech eval'd.  There are SLPs who specialize in expressive language.  Intelligibility MATTERS!  He's 5?  The ps won't intervene on articulation at this age.  You want to homeschool or ps?  You want the ps services or private?  

 

The most detailed language development testing, from what I can see, is usually done by behaviorists and people within the autism community, not an SLP, ironically enough.  Look at the VB-MAPP and the ABLLS.  Even the Vineland has a very detailed language development component.  Those first two tests go through all the steps and then they become the treatment roadmap as well.  That's where I was saying sometimes a diagnosis opens doors.  

 

Is he requiring prompting (a touch to the arm, etc.) to begin a step involving motor planning?  Joyce Show talks about this in her book  Teaching Your Child with Love and Skill: A Guide for Parents and Other Educators of Children with Autism, including Moderate to Severe Autism It's a very lovely book and you might find things in there that help you.  It's ok to read across labels, even if it's not the label your dc has now.  She's a mom but also a doctor, so she talks about what was happening with her ds and then explains the why, what they did to support it, etc.  You might find some good strategies.  I just like her tone, very peaceful, calm, accepting.  

 

Back to speech.  It sounds like he has a lot of sounds.  They're not going to be worried about lacking R in a 5 yo.  However the intelligibility is an issue, a big issue.  What that *can* indicate is that it's actually a motor-planning problem, not only a delay.  The best eval for the motor planning problems of speech is going to come from a PROMPT-trained SLP.  Your hospital may or may not have one, and the best way to find that out is to go to the PROMPT provider map.  Don't just ask, because PROMPT is not prompting.  You'll say do you PROMPT, and they're like oh yeah we "prompt." Not the same.  The PROMPT therapist will have the VMPAC, which is a specific test for motor planning to see if it's actually motor planning underlying the intelligibility issues.  Also there are some overall patterns.  You can call the PROMPT therapist or email and just talk it through.  There are usually some things they'll catch in that conversation to say yes you're going the right direction or no I'm not what you need.  I would suggest you at least make that call and talk it through with them.  Try to get the most qualified person you can.  Not intro (level 1) trained, but at LEAST bridging (advanced), preferably certified.  SLPs take stuff for CEUs, and a level 1/intro person doesn't know the method well enough or isn't committed to completing their training.

 

Well, welcome to the boards!  I'll deal with RightStart in a new reply.  :)

 

 

 

 

[PeterPan]

You are not crazy thinking that RS was just totally out of reach for your dc.  The boards are pretty diverse, but you've got to remember we've got phd physicists here and all sorts of people.  What becomes the "norm" here and "easy" here is TOTALLY SKEWED.  I have a dd17, and really we were able to play that game.  For her, a lot of things WERE easy!  But for my ds, who ironically enough has a higher IQ, things are NOT easy.  Nothing has been easy.  

 

Honestly, I think your evals were necessary to get you started, but they are just not going to be complete and final explanations.  I know people who didn't get that ASD diagnosed until their kid was in their teens, even though they had multiple evals previously.  Some things just become more apparent with time, as their peers pull away.  So I'm validating you that RightStart IS incredibly hard and makes WAY too many leaps for some kids, but I'm also saying you don't have the final explanation for *why* your ds is having that struggle. 

 

And here was the problem for me.  My ds has these delays of ASD, but the psych diagnosed an SLD, at first blowing off my concern about delays.  So at what point are you like, hello, we don't just push push, push beyond developmental READINESS, kwim?  His IQ matters, and in my ds' case it's pushing him to want to do some things, yes.  But even when he pushes himself, he's always later than others.  So I don't feel like there's this big "I have to have him functioning at IQ level" because there's also the what is he READY for, kwim?  I think you have to intervene, but I think some things, even with appropriate methodology, are going to take TIME.  Are you planning on homeschooling him?  And you have other littles or just him?  I used to have wisps of wanting more kids, and I still do have those days and moments.  However ds just takes SO much time and focus.  I have to be so ON for him.  He requires MORE time, more focus, more energy now than he did when he was little.  Usually it's the opposite.  I'm ON with him probably 13 hours a day.  

 

So I'm triaging backward.  All these academic subjects are going to require language.  You've got some language issues.  How were those CELF scores?  I would be wanting the Vineland or the VB-MAPP or ABLLS or something.  But those are behaviorist, not SLP.  How is his behavior with non-preferred tasks?  See, when my ds was 3-5, we could really cover up a lot.  We could just go along with what he wanted, make minimal demands, and we were fine!  But once we got into making demands, asking him to do non-preferred tasks (and EVERYTHING is non-preferred when you have loads of SLDs, lol), we just had lots of challenging behaviors, no matter HOW MUCH we accommodated.  I mean, were were doing EVERYTHING that could be done to make it engaging and preferred.  His behavior got worse and more challenging.  That's why we finally brought in the behaviorist.  The things I was saying at 5, newly 6, are NOT the things that were really obvious by 7, but I think it's because at those earlier years we were doing less and not making demands or asking him to do non-preferred things.  Actually, that's not true.  The ladies here could see it.  I was just so close to it, I wasn't seeing it.

 

My ds had a glaring discrepancy on the CELF between his vocabulary (99th percentile) and his single sentence comprehension (25th percentile).  That discrepancy got worse as he went from 6 to 7.  His peers were advancing, and he wasn't, so he didn't have the *language* skills to understand things.  Now the math SLD is something geodob on here has talked about.  I'm not a techie for brain stuff, but he linked us to some articles or books or something.  Basically there are a couple parts of the brain for math, one on the language side and one on the other.  So you can have issues with them not connecting and glitches in one but not the other.  So you can literally have a dc who is math *gifted* but also with the SLD.  It's wild.  That's how they consider ds.  He's actually really intuitive and bright with math, but to tell you what comes before 5?  He could not do that this school year.  But he's really fascinated by patterns and spends a lot of time thinking about math!  Gifted but also disabled.

 

So RightStart ends up too fast and makes too many leaps because it doesn't allow them to connect the LANGUAGE of the math to something they can VISUALIZE and feel and hold.  And they're going to have to do every skill, every piece, in MULTIPLE SETTINGS to generalize it!  So once we used Ronit Bird to get the concept of 3 to click, then we had to make 3 mean something in this setting and that setting and another setting and another setting.  I kid you not.  So it wasn't like just oh we did 3 for a week.  No we did it for a MONTH.  Lots of ways, lots of settings.  Every time you think they have it, do it a new way, a new situation.  

 

So any math that says Oh THIS is the magic manipulative! will be inadequate, because it doesn't allow the concepts and skills to generalize.  I end up doing a concept in Ronit Bird and then doing it in the car, in the store, in games, with worksheets, with little educational matching toys, with clocks, with temperature, etc.  Not just one thing and done.  Unless you want to have a kid who can do math on paper and not anywhere else, lol.

 

I would suggest you get through RB Dots, taking your time, using it in lots of ways to generalize, before going back to the teens and counting.  For RB Dots, just stick to single digits.  If you do it with imagination and really APPLY it, by the time you finish RB Dots you'll have covered all of single digit addition and subtraction.  You can put those into an app and drill them.  But you're also going to have to USE them around your house and in life to get them to generalize and get the connections made so the language is there for EVERYWHERE he goes, not just in the app.  Once we finished RB Dots, then we started doing daily dot to dots.  Start with like 20 or 50.  Someone sold me a set of little ceramic tiles with number stickers on them, and we'd order the tiles.  It was hard for him, so we'd do like just 11-20 or just 31-40, kwim?  Take it really slowly.  

 

There *are* some stronger tools than this even.  There's a teaching methodology for ASD called DTT, and some kids really need that.  My ds doesn't need to, or else I'm doing DTT and don't realize it.  It's true, I have a sort of methodically thorough, repetitive approach with him.  I'm just not an expert on DTT to help you there.  You're going to have to work your way through the levels of the tools.  What DOESN'T help is to say oh that's not my label.  It might not be his label yet.  They didn't actually run an ASD-specific tool, and it might not be that it's showing quite yet if you aren't making a lot of demands.  As the demands increased in my ds' life, his difficulty in handling them became more obvious.  Things that were like hmm, that's weird, at 5/6, were OBVIOUS and glaring by 7 1/2.  So all that matters is that the tools work.  We realized it was autism, because all the answers to our problems were coming from the autism community.  Look for answers and the labels will sort themselves out.

 

You're doing good things!  You've gotten evals early.  You've maxed out the most explicit of the regular homeschool materials and are on a SN/LC board asking for how you can take the next steps.  It's really not fun to realize your dc is going to be very different and have a different trajectory.  There's this whole "homeschooling is so romantic!" notion out there, and they portray it like this wonderful, fulfilling, motherly experience.  Well I say it's HARD WORK.  I say it's fulfilling but in a different sort of a way, a Maria Von Trapp sort of way, where you realize it's going to take EVERYTHING you've got to research and meet their needs and figure this out.  Some kids are sort of blithe and easy to homeschool.  But we make a lot of special friends and identify with a lot of people as we go along.  It's not without its own joys.

 

I just wouldn't waste your time thinking non-disability specific materials are going to help him.  Get more evals, get more labels that open doors to funding and supports.  Does your state have disability scholarships?  Check on this, because that will help you decide some things.  And keep us posted if we can help.  You can post the CELF scores and adaptive living scores and people can give you ideas. 

Edited June 21, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Janeway]

I would definitely go with a workbook based program. It sounds like he is not a tactile learner, or one to learn through games. 

 

BJU math is a very gentle program. It has the theory of start slow, get the basics very solid, and then move it. It is ahead of other programs by 8th grade. You might want to look at that one. I like the pages and how the lessons are broken down.

[twinbirches]

Thank you everyone :)  Lots to think about, but I guess life would be boring if everything was easy. 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 23, 2016 by twinbirches

[PeterPan]

I'm losing the flow of your thread already, but you have speech problems and the psych is suspecting an eventual DCD (global praxis, developmental coordination disorder) label, yes?  So then you want a PROMPT eval to see if the praxis she thinks she's seeing is part of his speech issue.  That would explain why it seems quirky to you.  My ds gets PROMPT and when you need it, it's worth it.

 

Yes, if he gets PROMPT, the therapist will teach you the components you can do and have you carry them over at home.  It's really ideal for homeschoolers!  

 

Ok, I'll just ask.  ID or no ID?  There are some math programs meant for SN that I really don't know about except to know the programs exist.  And it really kind of depends on whether this is just garden variety math SLD (use Ronit Bird) or whether this is ID, kwim?  And I think some of them they use with kids of more typical IQ who just need a LOT of repetition.  My ds doesn't need repetition so much as he needs teeny tiny pieces and steps so he can get his brain to see it.  For him, Ronit Bird is the teeny tiny steps.  But there are these other programs that are more for kids who need something totally different.  The name slips my mind.  Touch Math maybe?  I forget.  

 

If you can get your services privately, they will be better, yes.

 

If you're having trouble with behavior, have you brought in a behaviorist?  Maybe you already said that?  We finally did, and it is SO much better.  Honestly, things keep getting harder with him, not easier.  And things are going BETTER, but the complexity of what he's trying to do increases, meaning we end up seeing new problems to deal with.  Today he had some behaviors with other kids, and it's like MY LANDS WHY???  So I'm up emailing the behaviorist and she'll come work on it.  Really, I get maxed out.  I CANNOT coordinate therapies, keep interacting with him and keep him from going feral, research and find things to help him, plan activities AND do every therapy under the sun.  I need help.  Doesn't matter if I *could* do stuff, because I just need help.  And some of it is just flat not going to be strengths for me, not ever.  Sigh.  

 

You're wanting to homeschool the others?  I'm looking at your sig.  Or are they going to school and you'll just homeschool this one?  Will your insurance qualify you for at home help?  You've got a lot going on.  Our behaviorist got us an ABA tutor, and having that extra help is amazing.  I can finally breathe a bit.  I didn't realize how overwhelmed I was until I started having someone in and could actually wander around and do other things.  

[PeterPan]

And yes, there are 11 subtests on the CELF-P.  (I looked it up, I didn't know, lol.)  I can tell you my ds had a spread in his scores, with some very low and some pretty good.  It would have been nice to have done more of those subtests to see if there were any unexpected lows.  Obviously she thought they were going to be pretty good.  I think if you only saw my ds' vocabulary and paragraph level comprehension scores (both good), you would NOT have predicted my ds' single sentence comprehension score.

 

And sometimes scores change as they get older.  Their peers pull away and the disabilities become more obvious.

 

If he's having communication issues from praxis, that would explain/affect his behavior as well.  It's a good reason to up the priority on calling that PROMPT therapist.

[summerreading]

I am using CLE Math with my 6 year old and I like it. It is slow and gentle and spiral. You can see samples here.

I don't think my son had mastered counting to 20 yet a 5 either. It happens with lots of practice. If he doesn't like games, you could do other fun things to supplement like hopscotch, sing songs.

Edited June 23, 2016 by summerreading

[Kat w]

OhE, I've heard alot of people talk about finding here on the boards.

How do you get funding? We are in Florida . and my husband's salary rules out anything that is based on financial need.

It's all break-in the bank over here. People think because they are adopted we are rolling in subsidies but they were private adoptions. We paid money to adopt . wasn't through the state. So, how would one go about checking into funding?