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raganfamily
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My dd has planned to go to nursing school.  (She just graduated high school)  We have gone through and have things planned out. 

NOW, she has changed and really wants medical school.  We actually have a great medical school in our area.

 

This is where I need help... We are trying to go the no debt route and she is going to a community college next year, full paid and then transferring to a four year school.   (It's too late to pursue a 4 year college scholarships, deadlines have passed)

 

I want to help guide her in the right direction. We are going to change the courses she is taking at the community college. She is currently scheduled to take Mircobiology, A&P I, Computer Course and Government.  But, since she is wanting pre-med I am thinking this is not the right courses to take.   Does anyone have experience with this route?  Should she just take those basics or go ahead and take some of the sciences courses needed? 

 

I have searched for a clear cut this is what you need for undergraduate for med school, but have not found anything that is simple stated.

 

Any help would be appreciated. 

 

Crecy

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You might want to pose your question on the premed forum over at College Confidential. 

 

When I was researching options for my son when he was interested in premed, the general advice was to not take science classes at a community college because they were considered by the medical adcoms to be a watered-down version of what a student would encounter at a four-year school.

 

Now that your daughter has switched gears, I would investigate whether attending the community college this year would be the wise financial move in the long run.  Your D's expenses would be lower this year, but when she applied to four year schools to attend next year, would she be applying as a transfer student and not a freshman?  There are not as many scholarship opportunities for transfer students as there are for incoming freshman.

 

Good luck.

Edited by snowbeltmom
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The way the transfer scholarship and another scholarship she rec'd are structured that her tuition will be paid the last 3 years of 4 year as a transfer student.

 

I was not aware of College Confidential.  I will look into that.

 

Yes, the science courses at a community college was what I was worried about.  I thought about telling her to take just a General Chemistry to help make sure she wanted to go that route.

 

Thank you for your help!

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This is an older thread, but one I recall worthy of reading:

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/469506-homeschool-to-med-school/

 

I also agree that the college confidential pre-med topics was worthy of spending time reading when I had to figure all of this out 4+ years ago.

 

I don't have much time now (fixing lunch and water has just started boiling for beet greens), but later today I can hunt down more tips for you if you like.  This board is awesome for gleaning info and sharing with those coming behind is part of what I'm still around for (makes me feel useful!).

 

If you aren't sure if she is sure - see if she can shadow at your local hospital or similar.

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Does she know what type of medicine she wants to practice? Unless it's a specialty, the financially smart move might very well be to get her M.S.N. and work as a nurse practitioner. 2 years at the community college for her A.S.N., 2 years at the 4 year school for her B.S.N. and 2 years for her M.S.N. and then she'd be fully licensed and able to work at a good-paying job.

 

Whereas medicine requires 4 years of med school after receiving a bachelor's and then 3-5 years in a low-pay residency before the individual is fully licensed.

 

Primary care physicians don't make that much more than N.P.'s. She'd have to work FT for many years before she'd come out ahead. And if she wants to have kids, she may not want to work FT when they're small.

 

Now if she wants to go into some specialty, that changes the equation since (A) most specialties don't allow N.P.'s and ( B ) specialist physicians get paid $$$$.

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What is her higest math so far?

 

For our local medical schools cc credits are accepted (I was accepted having completed most of my sciences at cc). To be more competitive you take another advanced course at your 4 year. No CLEP or online courses. I will say that A&P will serve her well. You do not have to be a science major to complete "premed" requirements. There is usually no such thing as "premed" as a major, but there will be a special advisor for the pre-professional students to make sure they are getting the requirements.

 

Math through calc 2. plus stat. Maybe calc 2 at 4 year.

 

Bio 1&2- follow with genetics or micro at 4 year

 

Physics 1&2

 

Chem 1&2- follow with Orgo and biochem at 4 year.

 

Speech, computer

 

6 credits of English, plus at least 1 writing intensive course

 

24 credits: social sciences (hit at least 3 different content areas

 

Sample:

 

Fall

4- Bio 1

4- Stat

3- English 1

3- Government

 

Spring

4- Bio 2

4- Calc 1

3- English 2

3- Speech

 

Summer

3-Humanities

 

Fall

4- Chem 1

4- A&P 1

3- Humanities

3- Computer

 

Spring

4- Chem 2

4- A&P 2

3- Humanities

3- Humanities

 

4 year

8 credits of physics

8 credits of bio

4 credits of Orgo

4 credits of bio Chem

3 credits upper level writing

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This is an older thread, but one I recall worthy of reading:

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/469506-homeschool-to-med-school/

 

If you aren't sure if she is sure - see if she can shadow at your local hospital or similar.

Thank you I will start reading through those posts.  She did a CNA class and has started p/t at a hospital.  But, I do agree she will need to shadow. 

 

Does she know what type of medicine she wants to practice? Unless it's a specialty, the financially smart move might very well be to get her M.S.N. and work as a nurse practitioner. 2 years at the community college for her A.S.N., 2 years at the 4 year school for her B.S.N. and 2 years for her M.S.N. and then she'd be fully licensed and able to work at a good-paying job.

 

Whereas medicine requires 4 years of med school after receiving a bachelor's and then 3-5 years in a low-pay residency before the individual is fully licensed.

 

Primary care physicians don't make that much more than N.P.'s. She'd have to work FT for many years before she'd come out ahead. And if she wants to have kids, she may not want to work FT when they're small.

 

Now if she wants to go into some specialty, that changes the equation since (A) most specialties don't allow N.P.'s and ( B ) specialist physicians get paid $$$$.

Thank you.  This was her original thoughts and to me makes the most sense. She has mentioned to me about becoming a surgeon.  This is all within the past month.

 

What is her higest math so far?

 

For our local medical schools cc credits are accepted (I was accepted having completed most of my sciences at cc). To be more competitive you take another advanced course at your 4 year. No CLEP or online courses. I will say that A&P will serve her well. You do not have to be a science major to complete "premed" requirements. There is usually no such thing as "premed" as a major, but there will be a special advisor for the pre-professional students to make sure they are getting the requirements.

She has finished College Algebra.  So after looking through your suggestions.  It might be good for her to take another math course next fall.  Thanks for adding that it wouldn't hurt to take A&P

 

She is my oldest and I have found it is quite stressful to help lead down the right path.  My dd and I have found that the college counselors have not been much help

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She is my oldest and I have found it is quite stressful to help lead down the right path.  My dd and I have found that the college counselors have not been much help

 

College counselors often do not know enough to help.  Pre-med counselors tend to know what is happening currently.  I don't know if you'll find one of those at her planned CC or not.

 

To be totally honest from what I've seen, how "competitive" one needs to be for med school depends quite a bit upon your state of residence.  TX wins with oodles of (inexpensive) med schools and pretty much all of those having a vast majority of in state students.  If a student is a TX resident, they're in luck for odds.

 

Then there are states like PA.   :glare:   All of our med schools are very pricey - even for in state students - pricey as in it's less expensive to go to a place like Johns Hopkins than it is to go to Pitt or PA Commonwealth med school.   :cursing:   Hershey costs less (42K), but still far more than state schools in TX (15 - 18K).  Our schools are not required to have a majority of in state students so Pitt only has 28% in state compared to UT Southwestern with 85%.

 

What a PA student needs to be competitive can easily be different than what a TX student needs to be competitive - then there are all the other states with their own quirks and costs.

 

It could be very worthwhile to talk with a pre-med adviser in your state (state school?) to see what they recommend TBH.  The advice is probably more accurate (esp regarding cc classes) than the general advice you'll find on here (though general advice is a great place to start).

 

My guy always knew he wanted to try for a top med school, so aimed accordingly.  CC was only part of the picture as part of his high school education - and then, none of the pre-med courses.  He's accomplished a bit in his 4 years of undergrad and now his apps are in.  Time will tell where he ends up.  I have no worries about him getting in somewhere - no clue if it will be a top school or not - but wherever he goes (it'll be his choice if he has choices), we'll be cheering him on.

 

ps  He also has high enough accomplishments to try for MSTP options.  If he's successful with those, his med school - and grad school - are paid for.  There's no guarantee he'll be successful though.  Only 1/3rd of applicants are (roughly), but I toss it out just in case anyone else has a high stat student who might have interest (med + research) in trying to head that route.

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Just wanted to mention in response to a post above that both NPs and PAs can and do work in specialty areas.  There are many specialty areas for both of those credentials, and there is much to choose from.  

 

However, that being said, if your DD wants to go for medical school, I would encourage her to do it now.  It will be much harder to go back to it later, and if she has the energy and desire to do it now, I would go for it.  Also, I'm not saying anyone here is doing this, but I think a lot of times we subconsciously fall into thinking about women as maybe not wanting to work full-time later, with thoughts of wanting to have children, etc., and I think sometimes we treat women differently than men.  Physicians and NPs, male or female, can both have options to work part-time at points in their careers if that is what they choose.  So, I wouldn't let that limit her.

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  Also, I'm not saying anyone here is doing this, but I think a lot of times we subconsciously fall into thinking about women as maybe not wanting to work full-time later, with thoughts of wanting to have children, etc., and I think sometimes we treat women differently than men.  Physicians and NPs, male or female, can both have options to work part-time at points in their careers if that is what they choose.  So, I wouldn't let that limit her.

 

Women ARE different from men as a woman's fertility starts to decline at age 27. That is a FACT and when our society tries to ignore biological reality and pretend that men and women are the same, that's why we end up with so many middle-aged women heartbroken because they have difficulty getting and staying pregnant.

 

I would only encourage my daughters to go to med school over becoming a N.P. if they were 100% certain they wanted to go into some medical specialty not open to N.P.'s.

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To discourage a young lady based on a potential decline in fertility is a disservice I think. Not all women want kids. Not all of what we want at 18 is what we want at 25 or 30. I'm not sure this thread is the place to debate those things though. She was asking about curriculum sequence and cc credits, not whether or not to encourage her daughter on a particular path.

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She completed college algebra in high school. Has she completed precalc?

 

She did complete College Algebra in high school.  She hasn't completed Pre Cal.  That might be good for her to continue on with her math. I plan on helping her rescheduling her course load for this fall this week.

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Most places have precalc as a prereq to calc. I would recommend taking it even if not. Btw, I didn't end up going to medical school. I changed to nursing!

 

Thanks.  I thought I had all my ducks in a row and would be able to talk to people on nursing especially what all is offered in AR.  However, other areas I just haven't researched.

 

Thanks for your help.  it does seem there are more options going the nursing route. 

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Take a look at the medical school admissions requirements:

 

"Some schools require applicants to complete a certain list of premedical course requirements while others have moved to a competency-based admissions. At a minimum, students will likely complete the following types of courses:

One year of biology
One year of physics
One year of English
Two years of chemistry (through organic chemistry)"

 

Your student will not only need to pass these courses, she will need to do very well in them.  

 

To save money, by all means, attend state schools for undergrad and med school.  I was chatting with a surgeon who was on a medical school admissions committee and he told me how impressed he was with a student who had attended cc before transferring to state U because he was able to articulate how he was able to save money while still receiving excellent preparation.  Now some physicians may have some name school snobbery, but I think they are in the minority.  

 

You'll also want to encourage your student to pursue at least one outside interest in any field that interests her, but pursue it to some degree of excellence.  She can do research in biology, engineering, or public health.  She can pursue advanced studies in philosophy or writing.  She could take some time volunteer: tutoring, working in a homeless shelter, or in a hospital.  Note: she doesn't need to do all these things.  Better to pick one or two related items and really excel at them.  This will really enhance her application.  Some of these opportunities will not be so available at a cc, but she should make the best use of the opportunities she's provided.  But it needs to be something that really interests her because that passion will really be apparent on her application and interviews.  

 

Good luck to her!  

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The link Daijobu gave is a really good one to learn all the basics from.  Just remember that like any college website, the basics are the minimum.  Oodles of students applying to med school are very strong students.

 

Here's the list of admission stats of various sorts that they offer:

 

https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/

 

According to this table:

 

https://www.aamc.org/download/321494/data/factstablea16.pdf

 

In the last 10 years the number of applicants has increased from 39,108 to 52,550.  The number of matriculants has gone from 17,361 to 20,631.  This means the already low acceptance rate of roughly 44% has dropped to roughly 39%.  Med schools can be choosy. 

 

Here are the major fields of study:

 

https://www.aamc.org/download/321496/data/factstablea17.pdf

 

The current odds for those applying from specialized health majors is almost 31% accepted.  I'm always surprised it's not higher with that major, but the MCAT scores and GPA averages are lower, so that probably accounts for the differences.

 

You can check average state matriculant data on this next link, but note that the MCAT changed since that scoring.  New MCAT scores that you'll want are in excess of 500, the higher the better, of course.  It's rumored that schools are looking down on a score of 500.  GPA is still GPA and beware that any college courses count - even those taken as DE while in high school.

 

https://www.aamc.org/download/321502/data/factstablea20.pdf

 

It's not an impossible dream.  My guy has gone to school with several who are going to med school.  It's just anyone heading this route needs to be very aware of the odds and expectances. 

 

And yes, extra curriculars are important too.  Once one has their MCAT score and GPA, EC's are what help them stand out from the others with similar scores.  My guy has done research both at his school (U Rochester) and at Stanford.  He knows American Sign Language.  He took a medical missions trip to Cote D'Ivoire.  He's volunteered in the hospital and with hospice.  He's shadowed a bit.  He dances and was president of his dance club.  He juggles.  He's been a member of and president of a Christian club on campus.  He holds a couple of work study jobs.  He's been a Resident Adviser in dorms for the past couple of years getting great reviews.  He's TA'd a couple of classes and got great reviews.  Then to make everyone jealous (including parents), he's done all that and maintained his 3.96 GPA getting a double major and double minor plus he got a 517 on his MCAT (top 96th percentile - equivalent to a 36 on the old scoring).  I'm not sure he sleeps.   :lol:

 

To be fair, he has peers who have done less and still made it into med school, so all is not hopeless if they aren't at his level, but those peers still are quite impressive with their accomplishments, esp research.  Since he attends a research U, that's a common EC where he goes.

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Women ARE different from men as a woman's fertility starts to decline at age 27. That is a FACT and when our society tries to ignore biological reality and pretend that men and women are the same, that's why we end up with so many middle-aged women heartbroken because they have difficulty getting and staying pregnant.

 

I would only encourage my daughters to go to med school over becoming a N.P. if they were 100% certain they wanted to go into some medical specialty not open to N.P.'s.

 

I agree with both points here.  I do want to point out, however, that med school is chock full of women, and many of them do have children, even those in academia.  (It isn't easy, but somehow my facebook feed is full of cute pictures of doctors' kids.)   I have a pediatrician and a family medicine friend both work part time to spend more time with their children, volunteer at school and church, etc.  They have the flexibility to be able to return to work full time when her kids are older.   Their incomes combined with their dh's allow them to live comfortably with much hired help to take care of the mundane chores.  

 

Plus, not all women want to have families.  

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I agree with both points here.  I do want to point out, however, that med school is chock full of women, and many of them do have children, even those in academia.  (It isn't easy, but somehow my facebook feed is full of cute pictures of doctors' kids.)   I have a pediatrician and a family medicine friend both work part time to spend more time with their children, volunteer at school and church, etc.  They have the flexibility to be able to return to work full time when her kids are older.   Their incomes combined with their dh's allow them to live comfortably with much hired help to take care of the mundane chores.  

 

Plus, not all women want to have families.  

 

It is common to have kids during residency. Both our boys were born while DW was a resident. Residency is considered a job so you can take 12 weeks of leave under FMLA... though you do have to make part of it up and that might complicate timing for fellowships. DW has an old photo of herself and 3 other very pregnant friends who were all in her program.

 

I'm not convinced CW's advocacy for advance practice nursing degrees against MDs really makes sense from a reproductive opportunity stand point. Most of those nursing MS/PhDs expect a couple of years of clinical care experience before applying and then take a couple years of additional training. That training is more like med school and hard to interrupt. So assuming you take time off to have a kid after training and maybe a year into your first job, that looks a lot like doing 4 years of med school and a year of residency before having kids. The nursing approach *might* make it easier to take a longer time off. But, there is no reason getting an MD should force you to delay having kids until your mid 30s.

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Does she know what type of medicine she wants to practice? Unless it's a specialty, the financially smart move might very well be to get her M.S.N. and work as a nurse practitioner. 2 years at the community college for her A.S.N., 2 years at the 4 year school for her B.S.N. and 2 years for her M.S.N. and then she'd be fully licensed and able to work at a good-paying job.

 

Whereas medicine requires 4 years of med school after receiving a bachelor's and then 3-5 years in a low-pay residency before the individual is fully licensed.

 

Primary care physicians don't make that much more than N.P.'s. She'd have to work FT for many years before she'd come out ahead. And if she wants to have kids, she may not want to work FT when they're small.

 

Now if she wants to go into some specialty, that changes the equation since (A) most specialties don't allow N.P.'s and ( B ) specialist physicians get paid $$$$.

 

A girl we know was considering med school, and her family full of physicians talked her into going the NP route instead. They told her that because of the debt and the insurance costs, you don't have any room for flexibility or to make any changes.  It's something to consider.

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Another great source of information is the Student Doctor Network (I'm on my phone so can't link). It's a huge forum that covers all aspects - allopathic, osteopathic, residencies, specialties, as well as other medical professions (dentist, pharmacist, etc).

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Thank you everyone for your responses.  We have a plan now.  I did talk with the med school and they were super helpful.  My dd also has an idea of what all her options are.

 

Found out the med school offers a camp for entering high school seniors that goes over all the various medical positions.  So, this will work out for my current 11th grader who wants to be a NP.

 

Oh, I did find out she does not need Calculus for the program.

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My only experience in this is what my sister went through15 years ago, so take it for what it's worth, and her lifestyle now. She is In a highly specialized field that I don't think you can enter without an md. Not sure. However, at 38, she's unmarried, no kids. She says being married would be hard and having Kids whom she saw would be very very difficult unless she married someone who was willing to be w stay at home dad, and of course most of the men she meets are professionals like she is. She jokes that she needs a wife! I don't think she has any regrets, she seems happy, etc. but she does say that being a p.a. Or a nurse practitioner pays pretty well and lets you do many of the same things an md does, but with a whole lot less education, time, and a better schedule than she has. The md is still the end of the line as far as treatment is concerned, and still in charge. I would just try to encourage your Dd to think about her life so far in the future, if she can. I couldn't have at her age, and if I had, I certainly wouldn't have thought I'd be where I am today. Sahm, etc. But if she really wants kids and a marriage and all that stuff, perhaps something less than an md might be better.

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Not sure about in the US, but in Canada, a fair number of people go on into medicine after nursing degrees (also pharmacy).

 

Several Cdn schools have already or are in the process of completely revamping entrance requirements. There is no longer a requirement to have undergraduate sciences at UBC for example. You can apply from any faculty. 

 

Certain science courses are still recommended (& you'd need a good science background to do reasonably well on the MCAT) but you no longer have to have a traditional science background to be considered for admission. 

I believe this coming from some schools experiences with opening up seats to "non-traditional" students & discovering these students did well & became very excellent doctors. 

 

 

 

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I agree with both points here.  I do want to point out, however, that med school is chock full of women, and many of them do have children, even those in academia.  (It isn't easy, but somehow my facebook feed is full of cute pictures of doctors' kids.)   I have a pediatrician and a family medicine friend both work part time to spend more time with their children, volunteer at school and church, etc.  They have the flexibility to be able to return to work full time when her kids are older.   Their incomes combined with their dh's allow them to live comfortably with much hired help to take care of the mundane chores.  

 

Plus, not all women want to have families.  

 

There is a lot more part time and supplemental work available to MD's than many people realize. Hospital positions, urgent care, ED's and private practice are all places that I've seen part time MD's. 

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Not sure about in the US, but in Canada, a fair number of people go on into medicine after nursing degrees (also pharmacy).

 

I wouldn't say it's common here, but it does happen. 

 

The big problem is that a nursing degree is inherently one of the most inflexible time-wise, and doesn't leave a lot of time for the additional, also often difficult and time-consuming, courses that are necessary for pre-med.

 

I think often people getting a nursing degree and then continue with the pre-med requirements while working as a nurse. Which is certainly an option, but not a quick one.

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Several Cdn schools have already or are in the process of completely revamping entrance requirements. There is no longer a requirement to have undergraduate sciences at UBC for example. You can apply from any faculty. 

 

Certain science courses are still recommended (& you'd need a good science background to do reasonably well on the MCAT) but you no longer have to have a traditional science background to be considered for admission. 

I believe this coming from some schools experiences with opening up seats to "non-traditional" students & discovering these students did well & became very excellent doctors. 

 

 

 

 

I'm surprised this is recent.  In the US one can apply to med school with any undergraduate bachelor degree.  One needs to have a handful of pre-med classes (science and usually calc), but not a science major.  One could be a music or art major if they wanted.  It's been that way at least since my high school days.

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I'm surprised this is recent.  In the US one can apply to med school with any undergraduate bachelor degree.  One needs to have a handful of pre-med classes (science and usually calc), but not a science major.  One could be a music or art major if they wanted.  It's been that way at least since my high school days.

 

We had no required pre-med but a longish list of required science courses which were pretty much impossible to fit into anything but a bio/biochem/pharmacy major. You could do them alongside a different major but it would take a bit of extra time, kwim? They used to need a minimum of 12 credits of 2nd and 3rd year and organic chemistry courses (which of course you couldn't do without your full slate of first year bio & chem plus the math requirements)   There were people who got in with a different undergrad (my family doctor went in with a B.Ed.; & technically you didn't even need the full degree since you can apply with 90 credits) but the reality of the admissions stats is that the vast majority of accepted applicants were science majors.  

 

Now they've dropped all the sciences. They've left a list of recommended ones but zero required science or math courses.  

 

Lots of grumbling about this because the theory is that applying GPAs will be higher now. It will be interesting to see how it plays out. 

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That is interesting, because I know when I was in college, friends who were pre-med often chose specifically easier majors to ensure they had a perfect 4.0.  

 

The usual recommendation here (in the US) is to pick a major you really like because you're more likely to do well in it.  The chart I linked to in a pp shows folks from all sorts of majors make it in - the worst odds being from the Health Services fields.

 

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