Jump to content


What's with the ads?

Photo
- - - - -

Help me plan my logic stage logic scope and sequence?


8 replies to this topic

What's with the ads?

#1 Amy Meyers

Amy Meyers

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 975 posts

Posted 18 June 2016 - 07:56 AM

I need to plan now for purchasing my oldest boy's logic curriculum. He is on the young side of his grade, so I don't want to do anything too hard before he's ready for it. I was thinking of this scope and sequence:

 

5th grade:  Fallacy Detective

6th: The Thinking Toolbox

7th: Isaac Watts' Logic and maybe Improvement of the Mind, if time

8th: MP's Traditional Logic 1 or Classical Legacy Press's Logic 1: Tools for Thinking

9th: MP's Traditional Logic 2

 

What do you think? I can switch 7th grade with 8th, if Watts would be harder than MP's Logic. Watts doesn't get into formal logic. It's more practical logic, if I can call it that, so I'm not sure whether it would be best at the end of a formal logic study, perhaps in high school, or before, as I have it here.

 

What about CAP's The Art of Argument--is that a better choice than some of these?

 

And how do I teach Bluedorn's materials and Watts'? Do I just sit down and read a chapter a week with my child and discuss? Are there any workbooks that help with practice identifying fallacies for the Bluedorn's materials? Is there a discussion guide or any sorts of assignments?

 

Are there better options that I haven't listed here?

 

Thank you for your advice!



#2 tjlcc

tjlcc

    Hive Mind Level 3 Worker: Honeymaking Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 439 posts

Posted 19 June 2016 - 04:57 AM

My oldest and I used Fallacy Detective this year in 7th. He could have easily done it earlier, but I didn't own it earlier. He read a chapter each week on his own, we discussed it together. At the end of each chapter, scenarios are given and you decide which fallacy, if any.

 

Rather than attempting to map out a logic path for the next several years, I suggest purchasing Fallacy Detective to see if your son is ready. 


  • Amy Meyers likes this

#3 laughing lioness

laughing lioness

    Amateur Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 6044 posts

Posted 19 June 2016 - 08:16 AM

Have you looked at Intro and Intermed Logic by Jim Nance? I would highly recommend them as Jim actually teaches the students how to build a logical argument from the ground up. It is symbolic logic vs. linguistic (Traditional Logic). Roman Roads Media offers it with updated TM's and SM's and DVD's of Jim walking you through it- it's also offered on-line- excellent foundation in logic! 

 



#4 SilverMoon

SilverMoon

    Empress Bee

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 8685 posts

Posted 19 June 2016 - 08:58 AM

I'm not familiar with some of those, but what struck me is how drawn out the process is. We would probably fizzle before getting to the end.

 

Mine add some of the logic puzzles TWTM suggests around 5th grade. Then we do Art of Argument around 6th-7th, Argument Builder after that, and then Discovery of Deduction for some of them. Then they're done and ready to move onto rhetoric. We did put the Argument Rule book into our composition block at one point, and I'll likely do that again. (For that matter my 6th and 7th last year used AoA in their composition block. We ran through it primarily orally at a fast clip and turned some of the exercise questions into larger writing projects.) 

 

The Classical Academic Press books are all one semester books if done at full speed. If you're concerned about a younger DC handling them just slow it down and stretch it out to last a year.

 

FWIW Traditional Logic flopped in this house. If you're already familiar with MP's style and it works well for you, you will probably be fine with it. MP does not work for this family and we're used to more engaging curricula; we found TL as dry as chalkdust and didn't make it halfway through before shelving it.


  • 2_girls_mommy and Amy Meyers like this

#5 Amy Meyers

Amy Meyers

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 975 posts

Posted 20 June 2016 - 12:17 AM

Have you looked at Intro and Intermed Logic by Jim Nance? I would highly recommend them as Jim actually teaches the students how to build a logical argument from the ground up. It is symbolic logic vs. linguistic (Traditional Logic). Roman Roads Media offers it with updated TM's and SM's and DVD's of Jim walking you through it- it's also offered on-line- excellent foundation in logic!


Ooh, thank you. I forgot I bought a cheap used version of either the TM or SM of Intro and have never looked at it. I do remember that mine has Wilsons name on the cover too. I already own Fallacy Detective, Thinking Toolbox, and Intro Logic (though I would have to purchase other things for it), as well as Watts' books. I also have a logic book by, I think it's Geisler? I was wondering if I should just use what I already own, or if any of them covered formal logic (that's why I was thinking of TL1-2.) I thought all of these would take a year or so. But I'm willing to purchase from MP or Romans Road or CAP if those would work better. I've never used anything from any of those companies except for CAP Fable.

#6 Amy Meyers

Amy Meyers

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 975 posts

Posted 20 June 2016 - 12:32 AM

Have you looked at Intro and Intermed Logic by Jim Nance? I would highly recommend them as Jim actually teaches the students how to build a logical argument from the ground up. It is symbolic logic vs. linguistic (Traditional Logic). Roman Roads Media offers it with updated TM's and SM's and DVD's of Jim walking you through it- it's also offered on-line- excellent foundation in logic!

I know very little about logic, having never studied it myself. I feel really under confident about trying to teach this subject! 😩 I don't really know what you mean by symbolic vs. linguistic logic. Would any of these companies be adequate by themselves, or would I still need TL1 from MP, say, after doing Intro Logic by Nance to cover the "linguistic" logic? Sorry, I don't even know if I'm expressing my questions logically here! 😃 Could I use CAP by itself? Romans Road by itself? If I started with the BLuedorn books, is there overlap with the CAP products, and I should jump in at a later level? Do these products basically cover the same things just in different ways?

#7 historymatters

historymatters

    Hive Mind Level 2 Worker: Nurse Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 395 posts

Posted 20 July 2016 - 10:28 AM

I know very little about logic, having never studied it myself. I feel really under confident about trying to teach this subject! 😩 I don't really know what you mean by symbolic vs. linguistic logic. Would any of these companies be adequate by themselves, or would I still need TL1 from MP, say, after doing Intro Logic by Nance to cover the "linguistic" logic? Sorry, I don't even know if I'm expressing my questions logically here! 😃 Could I use CAP by itself? Romans Road by itself? If I started with the BLuedorn books, is there overlap with the CAP products, and I should jump in at a later level? Do these products basically cover the same things just in different ways?

 Amy, after much reading this is what I understand (someone correct if I misrepresent!):

 

Symbolic is modern, math-oriented logic; linguistic is the traditional, language-based logic (Aristotlean)

 

The Bluedorn's and Art of Argument cover fallacies/fallious thinking (Material Logic I think it's traditionally called; or Informal Logic now)

 

CAP's Discovery of Deduction is Formal, Linguistic Logic

MP's TL 1/2 = Formal, linguistic Logic

 

On the MP boards, DoD is said to be = to MP II; just different style

 

Nance covers basic Formal Logic terminology (Intro)

Nance's 'Intermediate' moves directly into modern, symbolic logic

 

Then there's inductive reasoning resourses:

 

http://www.exodusboo...analogies/2265/

 

So, to answer:

Could I use CAP by itself? Yes; Art of Argument, then Discovery of Deduction, then Argument Builder as an Intro to Rhetoric- though some do AB after AoA); you will miss out on symbolic logic with this route

 

Romans Road by itself? Yes; though my opinion is you'll leave out too much informal and linguistic logic

 

If I started with the BLuedorn books, is there overlap with the CAP products, and I should jump in at a later level?

The Bluedorn materials are good  for getting the child excited about critical thinking, IMO and, nless yor child is already 14 or 15, shouldn't be skipped

AoA covers similar material, but at a more mature and serious level; so, IMO, if you're starting in high school already, skip to AoA

 

 Do these products basically cover the same things just in different ways?

I hope I helped answer that above

 

I want my children to have both forms, so my plan is to use these(still figuring out order) :

AoA

Intro to Logic (Nance)

DoD or TL 1

TL2

Intermediate Logic (Nance)

Argument Builder (CAP) for Intro to Rhetoric;

and/or

Fitting Words (Nance); Classical Rhetoric(Cothran); Rhetoric Alive!(CAP-New, out this summer)

 

Also, the EPS Analogies series for inductive

 

I'd like to incorporate Watt's Logic somewhere, I just don't know where

 

I'd also like to reommend a book which I learned a lot from called:

Nonsense: Red Herrrings, Straw Men, and Sacred Cows: How We Abuse Logic in Our Everyday Language

 

 

HTH

 

EDIT: Don't forget to check out James Madison Critical Thinking Course 

 

      Also, check out the Table of Contents and/or samples of 'Introductory Logic' by Nance and DoD; they may be similar enough to choose only one-whichever one suits your child's style; I'm going to do that myself


Edited by historymatters, 31 July 2016 - 02:10 PM.

  • Dinsfamily, Amy Meyers, GeorgiaH and 1 other like this

#8 Amy Meyers

Amy Meyers

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 975 posts

Posted 30 September 2017 - 05:25 PM

 Amy, after much reading this is what I understand (someone correct if I misrepresent!):

 

Symbolic is modern, math-oriented logic; linguistic is the traditional, language-based logic (Aristotlean)

 

The Bluedorn's and Art of Argument cover fallacies/fallious thinking (Material Logic I think it's traditionally called; or Informal Logic now)

 

CAP's Discovery of Deduction is Formal, Linguistic Logic

MP's TL 1/2 = Formal, linguistic Logic

 

On the MP boards, DoD is said to be = to MP II; just different style

 

Nance covers basic Formal Logic terminology (Intro)

Nance's 'Intermediate' moves directly into modern, symbolic logic

 

Then there's inductive reasoning resourses:

 

http://www.exodusboo...analogies/2265/

 

So, to answer:

Could I use CAP by itself? Yes; Art of Argument, then Discovery of Deduction, then Argument Builder as an Intro to Rhetoric- though some do AB after AoA); you will miss out on symbolic logic with this route

 

Romans Road by itself? Yes; though my opinion is you'll leave out too much informal and linguistic logic

 

If I started with the BLuedorn books, is there overlap with the CAP products, and I should jump in at a later level?

The Bluedorn materials are good  for getting the child excited about critical thinking, IMO and, nless yor child is already 14 or 15, shouldn't be skipped

AoA covers similar material, but at a more mature and serious level; so, IMO, if you're starting in high school already, skip to AoA

 

 Do these products basically cover the same things just in different ways?

I hope I helped answer that above

 

I want my children to have both forms, so my plan is to use these(still figuring out order) :

AoA

Intro to Logic (Nance)

DoD or TL 1

TL2

Intermediate Logic (Nance)

Argument Builder (CAP) for Intro to Rhetoric;

and/or

Fitting Words (Nance); Classical Rhetoric(Cothran); Rhetoric Alive!(CAP-New, out this summer)

 

Also, the EPS Analogies series for inductive

 

I'd like to incorporate Watt's Logic somewhere, I just don't know where

 

I'd also like to reommend a book which I learned a lot from called:

Nonsense: Red Herrrings, Straw Men, and Sacred Cows: How We Abuse Logic in Our Everyday Language

 

 

HTH

 

EDIT: Don't forget to check out James Madison Critical Thinking Course 

 

      Also, check out the Table of Contents and/or samples of 'Introductory Logic' by Nance and DoD; they may be similar enough to choose only one-whichever one suits your child's style; I'm going to do that myself

 

(BUMPING THREAD FROM LAST YEAR!)

 

Hello, I was wondering what progression you did end up using, and how far along you've gotten down your logic path. What have you used, in what order, and how did you like it?
 



#9 Milknhoney

Milknhoney

    Hive Mind Level 2 Worker: Nurse Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 356 posts

Posted 02 October 2017 - 05:49 PM

WTM recommends Mind Benders for grade 5, so that's what we did. Ds LOVED them.

 

For 6th, we did both Fallacy Detective and Thinking Toolbox. I can't remember how we paced it. I think one chapter per week made each book about a semester long. Actually, I think he blasted through FD and then TT took a little longer. Anyway, Ds loved them both. Only problem is he is constantly picking out his little sister's "fallacies". Eight year olds use a lot of red herrings, apparently. 

 

7th grade - MP Traditional Logic I

 

8th grade - MP Traditional Logic II


  • Amy Meyers and cintinative like this