Can someone explain Bill Gothard's approach to life?

[Chris in VA]

I have a very dear friend who was, in her words, "practically raised by Bill Gothard." I have a couple of things by him, but I still am not sure where the controversy lies.

What I did notice was a less "leave and cleave" perspective than I have. But what else is he teaching? Particularly, what is considered extra-biblical by some?

Anyone have experience, positive or negative? No bashing please, let's be kind.

[Rosy]

http://billgothard.com/bill/about/

 

This should help. I have a friend whose family was heavily influenced by him, and while a lot of what he teaches is sound, there is enough that I have issues with that I tend to steer clear.

 

ETA: After looking at the website, I realized it doesn't go into a whole lot of detail about what is taught/believed. My issues are with the "quiverful" philosophy (the idea that one shouldn't use birth control--it doesn't bother me if people practice that, but Gothard teaches that using birth control is morally wrong), and also with his view of music--he teaches that drums shouldn't be used and that the overuse of rhythm appeals to the flesh and causes people to sin.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gothard

 

This might be a better starting point if you want to understand what about him is controversial.

Edited October 7, 2008 by Rosy

[mommaduck]

Here are some critiques on Bill Gothard:

 

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/i13.html

http://www.pfo.org/evol-fad.htm

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/gothard/general.htm

http://www.batteredsheep.com/gothard.html

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/gothards-confusion.html

 

This one starts off cutesy, but it brings out some very interesting information.

http://members.tripod.com/ronhenzel/GothardZone/08-BG2BG/index.html

Edited October 7, 2008 by mommaduck

[Diana in OR]

I went through the basic class as an adult. This is my experience, and I mean no disrespect to others who have a positive view of the teachings. I have a lot of issues with some of the teachings, but know a lot of people who follow his teachings to the letter.

 

It goes against my grain to cite stuff that I don't have a direct reference for, and I can't do that b/c I got rid of all the materials.

 

I remember some specific teachings from the seminar that were cause for concern for me. He specifically said that homeschooling is God's plan for educating our dc. (It wasn't "God's plan" when mil and fil attended 25 years prior :glare: .)

 

I moved from home when I was 18 and was pretty much independent from then on. While I loved my parents, I don't regret that decision one bit, and would do the same thing all over again. He teaches that women should live at home until they are married. Frankly, I gave myself a better moral environment than I would have if I would have stayed living at home.

 

Here's the one thate REALLY got me and I saw red flags all over the place. When I my dc were preschool age, and I knew I wanted to homeschool, I knew a lot of people at that time who were using Gothard's homeschool curriculum. I hadn't yet gone to the Basic Seminar, but was doing tons of research on curriculum (like we all do :001_smile: ). I asked several people if I could look at the curriculum and no one would show it to me. Then one person told me that you are not allowed to purchase the curriculum until you've completed not only the Basic, but the Advanced Seminars. I couldn't even look at it!

 

The list goes on. Imo, it goes way beyond basic biblical teaching, especially in terms of children/parents and the husband/wife relationships.

[Joanne]

No kids.

Legalistic.

Punitive.

Adversarial.

Hostile.

Abusive.

 

That's my summary.

[mommaduck]

No kids? Nowadays they teach that it's a sin to not have them...but then, they teach that it's a sin/unhealthy to have relations two weeks out of each cycle, to not circumcise your sons, etc.

[Joanne]

No kids? Nowadays they teach that it's a sin to not have them...but then, they teach that it's a sin/unhealthy to have relations two weeks out of each cycle, to not circumcise your sons, etc.

__________________

 

I think not having kids is fine. I think not having kids and having a "ministry" built around telling families with kids how to live, eat, move, worship, play, have sex, educate and *be* is wrong.

[mommaduck]

ah...understand...HIS not having kids (or being married or following any of his other rules...oops, this could get into bashing here...I'll just go "duck" in this corner and eat my popcorn now).

[Michelle in MO]

although there was some useful information, overall I find his approach to be heavily legalistic, especially in terms of parent/child relationships and husband/wife relationships. I also believe that he does not advocate the use of any type of "beat" or drums to music; I'm not a rock music fan, but I find this prohibition rather absurd.

 

I think the best way I can sum up what I believe about Bill Gothard is that there are many other Christian venues in which you can find a more balanced approach. I think it's much easier to learn principles from Scripture from a balanced approach first, rather than having to "unlearn" things that really cannot be fully supported by Scripture or by the overall tenor of Scripture.

[Diana in OR]

but then, they teach that it's a sin/unhealthy to have relations two weeks out of each cycle,

 

Forgot about that one!

I find it rather distrubing that one man has so much control over the s*x lives of so many married couples.

[Veritaserum]

No kids? Nowadays they teach that it's a sin to not have them...but then, they teach that it's a sin/unhealthy to have relations two weeks out of each cycle, to not circumcise your sons, etc.

 

So...he wants you to live the Old Testament laws? In the New Testament it says circumcision isn't required and the rules more relaxed in general. It's my understanding that Christ fulfilled the Mosaic Law and issued a new, higher law.

 

This guy sounds a lot like Ezzo (author of Babywise) who also gets negative reviews from people like the American Academy of Pediatrics for being so strict....

 

We used to be quiverfull minded until number 5 came. :p I think we've reached our limit and for the first time in nearly 10 years we're using birth control, which I think is perfectly moral given that another child right now would likely put us in a position to neglect the ones we already have (emotionally). We never set out with a particular number in mind. We agreed that we'd have as many children as we could emotionally and physically care for, which isn't an infinite number. ;)

Edited October 7, 2008 by Veritaserum

[mommaduck]

Yes, he endorses living by the Old Testament law plus some. And the ones we were familiar with endorsed Ezzo, but the Ezzo followers didn't always endorse Gothard. Gothard does not endorse adoption either and if you do then you have to pray the generational sins out of those children (yet the adopting parents are perfect, right?)...

 

sorry, I lived too long under people with this kind of thinking...

[pianoplayer]

his teachings fail to separate Biblical truth from his own ideas, which may be good or bad. I fear that many of his seminar attendees miss this unless they actively search the Scriptures to evaluate what Bill Gothard says by what the Scriptures actually teach.

 

I have been to a couple of his seminars in the past, but at this point I could never recommend them to others in good conscience.

[StaceyinLA]

when people believe someone to be so right that they start following them without question, it becomes cult-like.

 

Now I don't know details about Bill Gothard, other than the families I know that follow his teachings are generally very legalistic and intolerant of ones not like themselves, but I am dumbfounded that a man with NO children at all would preach to families to NEVER use birth control.

 

I mean I'm of the quiverfull mind and had a reversal in order to trust the Lord with more children. I believe He knew I had my hands full enough and, therefore, I have no more, but I never did anything to prevent more pregnancies. The problem in general with quiverfull is using the Bible to back it. I believe babies are blessings and I believe in trusting God to give us blessings. I also believe He gave us free will, and that common sense is allowed in times of determining whether or not one is capable of handling more children. We can't all be like the Duggars! Not all of us have the means or patience and I think we need to pray and make those decisions for ourselves, not allow a stranger to control our lives.

 

Anyway, I got off on a tangent there, but it's all relative to Gothard so I guess that's okay...

[Jenn in Mo]

I've been to a couple seminars, but I was younger and I generally let things slide off my back - take in the good, spit out the bad. I couldn't tell you anything that bothered me because I instantly forgot it. However, I can tell you that it's easy to spot what my husband and I call a "Gothardite". Yes, it's the homeschool goth movement. The quiet family walking through the zoo in a line from tallest to shortest, all 17 of them dressed identically. That's them.

 

I am a huge fan of big families. I dress my kids alike quiet often because I'm cheezy like that. Please don't misunderstand. It's just a common character trait of Gothardites. The funny thing is, while the identical dressing and quietness are all taught in the name of "harmony" in the home.....I've yet to meet a family that seemed remotely happy.

 

I had a woman go on and on to me about the superiority of her family and their values while we were visiting at a homeschool group meeting. She kept repeating the phrase, "It's just part of who we are". "Harmony. It's who we are." Somehow she was able to say it all with the most humble of tones. It was an incredible oxymoron. One of her sons came in and something happened, I have no idea what, and she proceeded to spank the snot out of him while he snarled and glared at her with hatred.

 

When we left, I asked 7 year old if he had a good time playing outside with the new kids. He said no. He'd gone up to a kid his age and said "Hi, I'm Joe, what's your name?" and the kid PUNCHED HIM IN THE FACE!

 

"It's who we are." :lol:

 

Anyway, just one small example of the several families I've known. There just seems to be such a separation from the rest of the world, but not in a scriptural "in but not of" sort of way. More of a "we're too good to associate with your kind" sort of way. Each family I've known that was in it was very negative, suspicious, and pot-stirring.

 

But this is a huge and unfair stereotyping. I have gleaned great things from their material and I'm sure there are some GREAT Gothard fans out there who do NOT fit the stereotype I just created. So please take my post with many grains of salt.

[Guest patricewith6]

My husband, who happens to have a PhD. in musicology, was asked to review a Gothard music text for a minister friend and found pages of false information in it. A lot of it was stuff that devout Christian/NON musicians love to state as fact when it in fact it isn't. Kinda reminds me of all the times we hear "billions of years ago...."

 

Anyway, he's a name we advoid in this house...

 

blessings,

Patrice

[Kelli in TN]

You are not supposed to marry after divorce. I think it makes your new marriage unsacred or something.

 

Tis a shame for dh and I. When we were young he was married for a year and I was married for 4 months. Neither shortlived marriage resulted in children (thank God) and both ended bitterly. We have been married to each other for over 20 years and we really like each other and the six children we produced together. It's a shame God has not blessed our unholy union. We should probably each return to our first spouses.:glare:

[Chris in VA]

Wow. I never expected such a long, negative thread. Kinda makes me feel justified in my gut reaction.

Veeerrry interesting. I was just about to order a bible study from them for ds. Guess I'm preeetttyy glad I'm not goin' there.

Thanks, all.

[Kelli in TN]

Oh, and I don't know if this is still the case, but at one time men could not wear beards. One of the men in our church got special permission from the Gothard headquarters to temporarily grow a beard to play a part in a play our church was putting on.

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

To add one thing. I have friends who have been into ATI for many years in varying degrees. I've borrowed some of the Bible studies. The ones I have read were very confusing to me. The scriptures cited often didn't seem to apply to the topics being discussed, and when their relationship was explained it was very convoluted to me. So much was taken out of context and used in ways that I never would have expected.

[Chris in VA]

ROFL!

[Laura in VA]

...Gothard does not endorse adoption either and if you do then you have to pray the generational sins out of those children (yet the adopting parents are perfect, right?)...

[Blueridge]

Did anyone mention that they do not encourage college? They teach that parents who have that as a goal for their children are actually believing a 'lie' of the world? :glare: Now their institute does offer their own upper level educational programs, at great expense, but with the 'proper' environment! :D

[mommaduck]

 

Yep, that's how I feel.

[angela in ohio]

Would "fundamentalist whacko who gives conservative Christians a bad name" be too harsh?

 

I can usually tell when I meet one of the children raised on his materials (no offense to anyone who was or is.) They have a sort of Eddie from Leave it to Beaver thing about them. Just a little too polite to adults outwardly, mixed with an underlying complete lack of actual respect for others (don't know if he teaches that they are better than others, but that seems to be what they learn.)

 

We got some of the same adoption garbage from non-Gothardites, so it is more common than just him.

[Marie in Oh]

This is my impression. We visited a chuch full of ATI folks and we felt out of place, even though we have 6 kids and homeschool. As my dh said when we left after chatting with a dad with 10 who sat in front of us-- "man was he ever uptight." My dh-- military, engineer, type A-- calling someone else uptight. :lol: It was a laughable moment. But he was totally on target.

[mommaduck]

This is my impression. We visited a chuch full of ATI folks and we felt out of place, even though we have 6 kids and homeschool. As my dh said when we left after chatting with a dad with 10 who sat in front of us-- "man was he ever uptight." My dh-- military, engineer, type A-- calling someone else uptight. :lol: It was a laughable moment. But he was totally on target.

Bingo!

[LisaKinVA]

Now everyone here can sympathize with the agony we felt, when dh and I felt forced to change our willl, so that our children would NOT be sent to my older brother -- who just started down the ATI path with their 11 children -- should something happen to us.

 

They are now going to family friends -- who may not homeschool (they are in a pretty good charter school), but share our values and beliefs in every. other. way.

[Chris in VA]

Has anyone read the sort of "for men only" book Gothard puts out? My friend read it--it is apparently not for female eyes, because it might inspire some sort of disappointment in your man if he doesn't live up to it.

No, really.

Anyone sneak a peek?

 

What about Character Sketches? That does seem like a cool resource--animals given as examples of traits that we should aspire to--nice pictures, nice text--Yea or Nay?

[chickenpatty]

Has anyone read the sort of "for men only" book Gothard puts out? My friend read it--it is apparently not for female eyes, because it might inspire some sort of disappointment in your man if he doesn't live up to it.

No, really.

Anyone sneak a peek?

 

What about Character Sketches? That does seem like a cool resource--animals given as examples of traits that we should aspire to--nice pictures, nice text--Yea or Nay?

 

 

We don't follow him, but we do have several of the Character Sketches books. Our whole family enjoys them.

[Kelli in TN]

 

What about Character Sketches? That does seem like a cool resource--animals given as examples of traits that we should aspire to--nice pictures, nice text--Yea or Nay?

 

 

It has been years since I looked at them. I used to attend a gothardy church and the Character Sketches were in the church library. I seemed to recall thinking that they were "okay" but some of it was a bit of a stretch. Like you had to really use your imagination to see how this animal showed that character trait and fit with this Bible portion, etc.

 

I think one can do better than that to teach character.

[Ellie]

Oh, and I don't know if this is still the case, but at one time men could not wear beards. One of the men in our church got special permission from the Gothard headquarters to temporarily grow a beard to play a part in a play our church was putting on.

 

I thought that was only for men in ATI?

 

It's a stupid requirement, in any case. Guess those Nazarites in the Old Testament were in deep trouble.:tongue_smilie:

[mommaduck]

I own one of the Men's Manuals ;) It's packed away at the moment though. Found it at a *gasp* yard sale! I also own the Basic Red Book. And though it was against the rules, a former friend did let me borrow her Advanced Red Book and look through the homeschooling material.

[Ellie]

What about Character Sketches? That does seem like a cool resource--animals given as examples of traits that we should aspire to--nice pictures, nice text--Yea or Nay?

 

Well, I don't have a strong opinion, but I have to wonder...if God made tree sloths to be the way they are...and He did...why would anyone consider the sloth itself to be somehow wrong? Now, if *we* behave like sloths, that's a different issue :-) A woman at our church used the Character Sketch stuff about sloths (as part of a Bible study in Proverbs); it could have been her own spin on the material, but if I remember correctly, the handout she gave us, from the Character Sketches, implied that the sloth was bad, KWIM? I wonder if all of them reflect badly on the animals who are, after all, only behaving the way God made them. That would bother me.

[Kelli in TN]

I thought that was only for men in ATI?

 

It's a stupid requirement, in any case. Guess those Nazarites in the Old Testament were in deep trouble.:tongue_smilie:

 

You know, you are right. I guess you need to differentiate between those who attend the seminars and those who are full fledged ATI members. I went to a church that had several ATI families and those men could not wear beards.

[Kelli in TN]

I own one of the Men's Manuals ;) It's packed away at the moment though. Found it at a *gasp* yard sale! I also own the Basic Red Book. And though it was against the rules, a former friend did let me borrow her Advanced Red Book and look through the homeschooling material.

 

I bet selling Gothard materials is against some rule or something! I bet he would not be happy to see his stuff in a garage sale!:lol:

 

I know the families can be a bit secretive about things. We got to look at the stuff just because we were in a church that had a lot of families that were part of ATI and someone was always trying to recruit us. Once I even got to keep the homeschool stuff (wisdom studies I think they were called?) for a weekend and study it in hopes that I would come to the conclusion that this is just what my family needed.

 

I drank a lot of crazy koolaid back then, but I never did drink the Gothard koolaid.

[mommaduck]

Yep, I've drank a lot of crazy kool aid in my time also. The good Lord kept us poor enough to not be able to go "all the way Gothard". It was tempting. But didn't happen. Now I feel like I see things through newer, but wiser eyes as I get older. And yes, it's against the rules to sell or give away any of the books.

[chickenpatty]

It has been years since I looked at them. I used to attend a gothardy church and the Character Sketches were in the church library. I seemed to recall thinking that they were "okay" but some of it was a bit of a stretch. Like you had to really use your imagination to see how this animal showed that character trait and fit with this Bible portion, etc.

 

 

 

This is true. What we have enjoyed most about them is learning the interesting (and often surprising) facts about the animals and reading the stories about them at the beginning of each chapter/section.

[Diana in OR]

Yep, I've drank a lot of crazy kool aid in my time also. The good Lord kept us poor enough to not be able to go "all the way Gothard". It was tempting. But didn't happen. Now I feel like I see things through newer, but wiser eyes as I get older. And yes, it's against the rules to sell or give away any of the books.

 

 

I sold mine on Ebay.:lol::D:lol:

[Chris in VA]

I have a basic training manual of some kind I bought on ebay--

 

I am curious what he says in the men's manual. Can you enlighten?

[mommaduck]

Nope, because it's packed away and I've purge my brain of much of any and all kool aid. It's boxed away in the back room (not sure which box). If I find it, I'll gladly bring up the topic again ;)

[Laura in VA]

Has anyone read the sort of "for men only" book Gothard puts out? My friend read it--it is apparently not for female eyes, because it might inspire some sort of disappointment in your man if he doesn't live up to it.

No, really.

Anyone sneak a peek?

 

What about Character Sketches? That does seem like a cool resource--animals given as examples of traits that we should aspire to--nice pictures, nice text--Yea or Nay?

 

Nay, nay, nay. I would not use any of his material.

[Diana in OR]

Nay, nay, nay. I would not use any of his material.

 

We used Character Sketches for family devotionals for awhile when our dc were younger. I don't remember all the details, but we got to one where a litter of, I think, woodchuck babies were put in an oven and the heat was turned up. It was really creepy and weird and dh and I agreed at that point to not use any of that material ever again.

[Chris in VA]

Wow. Who knew?

 

I'm really wondering what my df (mentioned in my original post) is dealing with as a person who was steeped in this guy's POV.

 

I've gotta say, I'm just blown away at this point.

 

Thank you more than I can tell ya all!

[herbalgirl]

I really can't add more than what the others have said, except to echo their sentiments.

 

My dh's family used that (ATI) for some time, and his stepmother will say ATI/Gothard did a lot of good for them. I know they believe in all the beat/music business, as she could barely stand the Johnny Cash I had playing for the kids when we went on a long car ride!:tongue_smilie:

 

Just the name Gothard gives me the shivers..