Explain to Me Being a Non-WOH No-Kid Wife

[heartlikealion]

 

To me, there's no issue employing people to clean for you or care for your children, so long as you pay and treat them well. And by well I don't mean the minimum you can get away with. 

 

I think it's appalling that childcare is paid less than cleaning. What's more important - your baby or your toilet ? 

 

I think it's appalling what we pay for child care anyway. I was on the board of my daughter's preschool at one stage, and I was beyond shocked at what high quality, trained, caring staff were paid. Peanuts. Disgusting.

 

This may not be the case in the scenario you describe, but not all staff is specially trained for child care. I worked in a day care very briefly (I worked there PT until I got a FT job elsewhere). I made peanuts. I think I made a hair less there than I had made at a fast food job. And I was expected to stay on site for my lunch and monitor the kids during nap time while I ate my food and cleaned up the tables from their snack time. I wasn't there a whole shift so it wasn't the end of the world, but not getting to "clock out" for my meal was annoying. Also we rotated bathroom duty so I ended up cleaning the toilet once a week.

[heartlikealion]

Hiding it and keeping it separate are not the same. I don't think the pp said anything about keeping an inheritance secret from your spouse. Just putting it aside for the ultimate "rainy day," ykwim?

 

That was not the impression I got from the language used. "Shield" the money. "Save that individual money just for you" etc. My spouse would probably be highly offended if I suggested doing something like that based on conversations we've had about separate vs joint accounts.

[Ausmumof3]

My mom has a cleaning lady who comes every two weeks. It turned into more of a charity project: mom has to straighten before the lady comes, and the cleaner does not really clean all that great, mom could do a much better job herself. It is also weird for my mother to have her there; she feels she needs to work at something because it makes her very uncomfortable sitting leisurely while another person is cleaning her house. It was not something she grew up with or ever experienced until in her 60s, and she is not fully comfortable with it.

Neither am I; this is where having grow up in a communist society really screwed my perspective, and I don't think I'll ever get over it.

 

I'm with you. We stayed in a place with regular cleaners coming through and it felt so strange. I absolutely felt like I couldn't sit and watch tv while they cleaned but anything productive I wanted to do was in their way (as it was a team of cleaners). I guess if I ever had a cleaner through I'd have to go out.

 

I know really for a fact that some if not all of our clothes were produced with exploitive labour practices. Also that the fruit pickers work hard and don't get paid much. But it doesn't feel as weird as having someone come and actually clean up after you. Even though the cleaners are actually well paid.

[zoobie]

That was not the impression I got from the language used. "Shield" the money. "Save that individual money just for you" etc. My spouse would probably be highly offended if I suggested doing something like that based on conversations we've had about separate vs joint accounts.

Might be legal-financial speak. In a community property state, you have to do certain things to "shield" individual assets from becoming marital property. Once you commingle individual assets (such as inheritance) with marital assets (such as income earned during the marriage by either spouse), you lose the individual status. There might be tax considerations as well as legal ones for keeping funds separated.

[Ausmumof3]

It feels different at home because it is more private and personal - if that makes any sense. I said it was not logical.

 

Also, the person cleaning the bathroom at work has a pretty stable full time job with benefits and health insurance.

 

At work, there is division of labor; many different people taking care of their respective area of responsibility. At home, it's all our family, and taking care of the home is a shared task; it would be bringing in an outsider who has no affiliation with my home. Not at all the same.

But at least where I worked I knew the other staff and saw them whereas the cleaners were just a faceless entity that came by night.

[Scarlett]

I understand the discomfort with having someone scrub our toilets. I get the guilt. Regentrude, I thought you described it well. So I pay well for our housekeeping help, and tip well, and provide paid time off at the holidays - for a very part time position.

 

Having paid help evolved for me because I was seriously ill. I could not even walk up and down our stairs, and had live-in parental help for two years, to help with the then 15 month old. I had to get over the guilt. And I still need the help, to have energy to homeschool well. So it's just part of life here. I can only do so much, and do it well, with limited energy. DH views homeschooling our kids as a full time job, so he outsources cleaners.

 

In fact, reading this thread has made me deeply grateful all over again for my DH. I'm so thankful he didn't just view me as a contract, and that when I became ill and could no longer work - he continued to support me in a thousand ways. He still does. He's a kick butt guy.

Kinda scary to think about being with a spouse who only views you for what you can do for him. I didn't fully realize it until I was divorced and remarried but my first husband definitely wanted his money's worth. Makes me really appreciate my Dh who would do anything for me and who is grateful for everything I do for him and our family.

[Ausmumof3]

That's what I'd think. A sense of responsibility for a community space, perhaps?

 

(Reminds me of us cleaning the school when I was a kid; there was no paid custodial staff, students did everything. Some schools nowadays implement this intentionally.)

Isn't this a common thing in some countries that the kids have responsibility for the classroom? I'm thinking Japan but I may be wrong.

[Ausmumof3]

To me, there's no issue employing people to clean for you or care for your children, so long as you pay and treat them well. And by well I don't mean the minimum you can get away with.

 

I think it's appalling that childcare is paid less than cleaning. What's more important - your baby or your toilet ?

 

I think it's appalling what we pay for child care anyway. I was on the board of my daughter's preschool at one stage, and I was beyond shocked at what high quality, trained, caring staff were paid. Peanuts. Disgusting.

On the flip side many parents feel that daycare is still too expensive. The only alternative is a fully government funded option which is ok but we all then need to pay more in tax. The reason they are paid so little is because if childcare were more many families simply couldn't afford to have two incomes anymore. Edited June 1, 2016 by Ausmumof3

[frogger]

One group's economic agility shouldn't come at the price of underpaying other women for care of their children.

 

End of. It's an ethics thing.

I was just relating the reality of why it is. I didn't say it was right or wrong. The average American cannot pay someone as much as they make per hour. How would that work? My husband and I found a way around it by working opposing shifts. He worked days and I worked nights but I also understand not everyone can do that.

[frogger]

Duplicate post

Edited June 1, 2016 by frogger

[Night Elf]

Isn't this a common thing in some countries that the kids have responsibility for the classroom? I'm thinking Japan but I may be wrong.

 

When my son took Japanese in high school, we learned this was a thing. It was an article he had to write about. School ended at a certain time, as in classes stopped, but then all the students had assigned cleaning duties.

 

[gypsymama]

I was just relating the reality of why it is. I didn't say it was right or wrong. The average American cannot pay someone as much as they make per hour. How would that work? My husband and I found a way around it by working opposing shifts. He worked days and I worked nights but I also understand not everyone can do that.

 

You can't. It would be impossible for someone to make $10/hr then turn around and pay the sitter $10/hr.

 

I wouldn't suggest underpaying anyone but all there are a lot of factors to consider. The WOH mom pays for childcare, gas, and other costs to have her job. An in home sitter does NOT. If you count that she's already made more than the WOH mom. Plus a WOH mom with a job gets all her income from that job. An in home sitter usually has 1-4 families they do child care for so their income is coming from multiple places.

 

A little play math: WOH mom works 40 hr/wk making $10/hr and spends $40/wk on gas + $3/hr for childcare (45 hrs paid adding in 30 min commute/leeway time both ways for 5 days/wk). Mom made $400 - $40 gas - $134 child care = $225 take home. In home sitter charges $3/hr per child and keeps 4 kids for 45 hr each week. So $3/hr x 4 kids x 45 hrs = $540. In home sitter made at least DOUBLE what the WOH mom made. * These are just a simple example but it shows that a mom can easily pay just $2-3/hr and not be cheating or underpaying the sitter in any way even if they mom makes $10 or more an hour. The in home sitter wouldn't make any money if she only kept one child at $2-3/hr but that is her issue not the mom's. This is for in home child care though... nanny type situations where the sitter is dedicated to your child(ren) only require a different pay scale. 

 

 In home sitter keeps 4 kids, each from a different family, at $3/hr per child = $12/hr income. 

[Bluegoat]

Like what? Team building kind of thing? 

 

 

That's what I'd think. A sense of responsibility for a community space, perhaps?

 

(Reminds me of us cleaning the school when I was a kid; there was no paid custodial staff, students did everything. Some schools nowadays implement this intentionally.)

 

Yes, that kind of thing.

 

Sometimes when nobody you know is in charge of a space, people can really be slobs as well.  They take the idea that it is someone other person's responsibility to take care of the space for granted (which is actually I think quite different than hiring someone in your own home, for most - there is a weird psychological difference.)

[Bluegoat]

First of all, as I explained in an earlier post, much of my feeling stems from my childhood, so they have nothing to do with today's Germany.

 

I do not know what you mean about elder care; in my experience, elder care is outsourced only in situations when it is no longer feasible for the family to care for the old people because the nursing needs cannot be met at home, or the family cannot care for a person with severe dementia. The desired situation is for old people to either live with their family or independently, and it is seen as the preferable option to provide services to keep the old people in their own homes as long as possible. (My MIL lived at home for several years with in-home health care and a house keeper and her blind elderly husband; only when her MS and Alzheimer made her require actual nursing care and she could no longer be kept safe at home did she move to a nursing facility. This seems to be the pattern in other families, too).

 

Childcare: this is a very different situation than cleaning homes. In Germany, childcare is done by professionals with degrees in early childhood education, and the standards are much higher than they are in this country. People use childcare for two basic reasons: first, if the parents work; second, because the family considers it of educational value to have their child attend a childcare center - similar to why Americans send their kids to preschool.  All mothers stay home with infants for at least two months since this is mandated by law; it is illegal to employ a woman before 8 weeks postpartum. Most stay home for at least a year. Other than in the US, they have civilized maternity and family leave. Many mothers stay home for the three years for which the law guarantees that your employer has to give you your job back. So, I have not made the experience that childcare is used more extensively than in the US where many moms have to return to work very shortly after the birth, and where there are substandard daycares with untrained staff.

 

Specifically disabled children: I have not made the experience that care for disabled children is outsourced to a particular extent. In many cases, parents of disabled kids stay home, even though they would work if the child were not disabled. There are special daycares for disabled children that offer extensive therapy. My niece was born premature with cerebral palsy; after being home with my sister for a year, she then attended a daycare where she received daily therapies from trained therapists, something a parent could not have provided, which at the same time allowed her single parent to finish her education and get into a position to earn a living for the two of them. She then attended a special public school for children with disabilities because of the therapeutic offerings that were available on site.

 

I fail to see how this is comparable with having somebody clean houses. I have not come across people who have somebody care for their kids simply because they don't like to do it themselves... I'm sure those exist, but are not the majority of people who utilize childcare services.

 

As for laundry: actually, it is fairly common to send out large pieces of laundry. The small capacity of the washing machines, typically lack of a dryer, and drying on drying racks or shared clotheslines makes it difficult for many people to launder their own sheets. My mother has sent out sheets/linens as far as I can think back.

 

ETA: One thing people do more is fix their own meals. In Germany, eating out is something you do for a special occasion. You would not go eat out on a daily basis because it is simply too expensive.

 

I think perhaps part of the idea is this - one reason for outsourcing child or elder care is so that adults are able to work at outside jobs.  Similarly, people often hire a cleaner not just because they don't like to do housework, but because if the adults all have full-time jobs, there may be limited time for cleaning - in fact it may make more sense to spend an extra hour at work and pay someone to do a household task, or mow your lawn.

 

If you are going to hire someone for home related work, it makes sense that you might hire them for things you don't enjoy rather than things you do, even if the main reason was just a general time crunch.

 

The similarity with elder and child care I think is this - those things were at one time much more private family responsibilities for many people who could not afford help.  To some extent, the norm of having two adults working makes things like, for example, after-school care, much more normal and necessary.

[8circles]

DH's workplace has an employee scheduled each week to clean the break room. Which sounds sensible until you realize that that company earns hundreds of dollars for every hour my DH works for customers... The company looses thousands of dollars in billable hours based on this policy of not using a cleaning service. It varies by the value of each employee, but they loose around one thousand every time my DH's week rolls around and they'd rather he wash coffee mugs instead of using his skills to make money. It's pretty foolish.

 

 

It could be that there is other value in this sort of arrangement though. 

 

 

Like what? Team building kind of thing? 

 

 

I think the original question and been covered.  Just chiming in to say my perception of help at home is similar to regentrude's.  I would also say, though, that I think cleaning up after yourself & your household has lots and lots of value that I know I won't be able to adequately articulate.  But it isn't about it making more financial sense to be working than cleaning.  I'm sure that's very often true.  But there's way more to life/success/happiness than making financial sense.  It makes way more character sense to clean up after yourself than to pay someone else to do it.  For one, it keeps you humble as you realize your shit stinks just like everyone else's.  

 

ETA: I am not in any way, shape, or form, judging anyone else's character or anything about them personally.  I don't have any feeling one way or another on anyone else's cleaning method or who does it.  I don't think that outsourcing cleaning up anything says anything about your character.  I don't think it secretly, so I didn't imply it either.  I don't believe it so I wouldn't have said it.  Yes, I believe that cleaning up after yourself builds character and keeps you humble.  There are other ways of building character and being humble - there may even be people who are born with humility and strong character.  I'm not one of them and I've never claimed to be.

I don't judge people on their manual labor abilities or duties.

I don't think people who outsource cleaning are jerks.

I don't think anyone needs to justify their outsourcing of anything, especially not to me.

I don't think that me cleaning my own toilet makes me better than anyone else. 

 

If this isn't adequate explanation, I apologize.  It's the absolute best I can do. 

DH's workplace has an employee scheduled each week to clean the break room. Which sounds sensible until you realize that that company earns hundreds of dollars for every hour my DH works for customers... The company looses thousands of dollars in billable hours based on this policy of not using a cleaning service. It varies by the value of each employee, but they loose around one thousand every time my DH's week rolls around and they'd rather he wash coffee mugs instead of using his skills to make money. It's pretty foolish.

 

 

It could be that there is other value in this sort of arrangement though. 

 

 

Like what? Team building kind of thing? 

 

Edited June 1, 2016 by 8circles

[SKL]

I've always been good about cleaning up behind myself, and just not making a mess in the first place.  I'm working on teaching my kids.  But when you're talking about one person being expected to clean after everyone in the house, including people I don't get to control, that's different.  Add on a job that has just as many hours as everyone else's job, and whatever a mom does for her kids / elderly parents / community, and the idea that I'm a jerk because I don't clean my whole house by myself is a bit unfair IMO.  I did it for years, though.  Sometimes I got very frustrated because other people would do things that undermined my efforts, and their attitude was, we don't care if the place isn't neat, so we're going to mess it up.  If you don't like it, that's on you.  I had enough of that.

[Bluegoat]

I had a friend who, 6 months of the year, lived with her dad, along with her four siblings - he was a university professor.  INterestingly no one seemed to find it odd that he had a cleaning lady.

[LucyStoner]

One group's economic agility shouldn't come at the price of underpaying other women for care of their children.

 

End of. It's an ethics thing.

I agree. I have been in the situation of cleaning and doing childcare for the same family. $60 for ~3 hours work when it was cleaning. $10/hr for childcare.

[SKL]

When I had a nanny just taking care of my 2 kids, she was paid the same hourly rate as our maids, even though her paid time included a significant amount of "down time."

 

When I sent my kids to daycare, my cost was cut in half, but my kids were in a class of 8 vs. 2.  So that seems about right to me.

 

The amount I paid was roughly $20/hour to the nanny ($10/kid) and $10 to the daycare ($5/kid).  It follows that if there are 8 kids in my kids' class (8-1 ratio at ages 2.5-5), that's $40/hr to cover the cost of staff and shared facilities.  Seems reasonable to me.

 

I don't think you can compare cleaning to child care for many reasons.  A part-time cleaner is spending pretty much the entire time doing physically strenuous work.  They also have to make up for time spent traveling between jobs vs. having one job for an 8+ hour stretch.  Child care responsibilities are more spread out over the day.  With child care, it really depends on the child how much work it is.  Some kids nap for hours, some run around like maniacs or scream the whole day, some have medical issues and need a lot of physical care.  Most kids past early infancy don't need constant one-on-one (or one-on-two) attention and can benefit greatly from just hanging out with peers in a reasonably safe place.  And they can kick out a child who constantly requires too much one-on-one; or, they might qualify for subsidized help via special needs funding.

[LucyStoner]

I think the original question and been covered. Just chiming in to say my perception of help at home is similar to regentrude's. I would also say, though, that I think cleaning up after yourself & your household has lots and lots of value that I know I won't be able to adequately articulate. But it isn't about it making more financial sense to be working than cleaning. I'm sure that's very often true. But there's way more to life/success/happiness than making financial sense. It makes way more character sense to clean up after yourself than to pay someone else to do it. For one, it keeps you humble as you realize your shit stinks just like everyone else's.

Or, OTOH it's cheaper than neglecting your marriage and your kids and family care responsibilities. Sleep, rest and less stress are valuable too.

 

Regentrude has 2 older children and works part time. Your family has one FT wage earner. If you both feel you have the time and energy to never hire cleaners, that's great but it doesn't make the conclusions you seem to be drawing about WHY people hire help accurate. IME both working as a cleaner and hiring cleaners it's not because people think their shit doesn't stink. It's generally because they are low on time or have some additional stresses in their lives. Most of the people I cleaned for back in college were double income professionals with kids who wanted to spend their time off with their kids and not on extra chores.

 

When I have had hired help it absolutely was a function of time management/the limits of 24

hour days/limit of my energy and not out of any disconnect from the ordinary tasks of daily living or lack of character.

 

1. Remember most people with housecleaning help are getting it 1x a week or less. 2 or more times a week is less common. For time consuming or physically demanding jobs. It's not like having daily maid service. You need to still tidy and do daily tasks. You don't leave your dishes piling up for a week or leave spilled milk on the floor until the cleaner comes again.

 

2. When you have kids, 2 parents both working FT and perhaps another complicating factor (for us that was my post partum mental health and my mom's caregiving but for others it could be extremely long work hours or physical health) hiring help gives you back valuable time you need to have with your kids, with your spouse and/or resting.

 

3. In times of crisis, it can keep things in check enough that a messy home doesn't pile on stress in the home or between spouses. When things aren't getting done it can cause significant distress in a relationship. We used to say that paying our cleaner was cheaper than marriage counseling and it was very apt for us as neither of us had an abundance of time or energy but are both extremely stressed by big messes. When I was paying one for my mother, it meant that when we came over after work, her place for mostly clean and we could spend our time with her, making her meals and eating with her instead of cleaning up. Hiring a cleaner for her was the best thing ever.

 

We do not have a cleaner now. We aren't cancer caregiving. I don't work FT. We have a very compact living space. We have a tight budget. But I absolutely can not condone judging those who do, for pretty much any reason at all. Needing or wanting and then getting help =\= anything besides needing or wanting help.

Edited June 1, 2016 by LucyStoner

[8circles]

I'm actually not saying anything negative about people who have cleaners. I'm certainly not calling them jerks, skl.

My post was to answer the question that someone raised about why it's important to clean up after yourself.

 

I would absolutely hire someone to clean my house at times if it were the budget. But I do think there is tremendous value in doing it myself. And I see the value in people working in an office cleaning-up the shared spaces in rotation.

 

 

Or, OTOH it's cheaper than neglecting your marriage and your kids and family care responsibilities. Sleep, rest and less stress are valuable too.

 

Regentrude has 2 older children and works part time. Your family has one FT wage earner. If you both feel you have the time and energy to never hire cleaners, that's great but it doesn't make the conclusions you seem to be drawing about WHY people hire help accurate. IME both working as a cleaner and hiring cleaners it's not because people think their shit doesn't stink. It's generally because they are low on time or have some additional stresses in their lives. Most of the people I cleaned for back in college were double income professionals with kids who wanted to spend their time off with their kids and not on extra chores.

 

When I have had hired help it absolutely was a function of time management/the limits of 24

hour days/limit of my energy and not out of any disconnect from the ordinary tasks of daily living or lack of character.

 

1. Remember most people with housecleaning help are getting it 1x a week or less. 2 or more times a week is less common. For time consuming or physically demanding jobs. It's not like having daily maid service. You need to still tidy and do daily tasks. You don't leave your dishes piling up for a week or leave spilled milk on the floor until the cleaner comes again.

 

2. When you have kids, 2 parents both working FT and perhaps another complicating factor (for us that was my post partum mental health and my mom's caregiving but for others it could be extremely long work hours or physical health) hiring help gives you back valuable time you need to have with your kids, with your spouse and/or resting.

 

3. In times of crisis, it can keep things in check enough that a messy home doesn't pile on stress in the home or between spouses. When things aren't getting done it can cause significant distress in a relationship. We used to say that paying our cleaner was cheaper than marriage counseling and it was very apt for us as neither of us had an abundance of time or energy but are both extremely stressed by big messes. When I was paying one for my mother, it meant that when we came over after work, her place for mostly clean and we could spend our time with her, making her meals and eating with her instead of cleaning up. Hiring a cleaner for her was the best thing ever.

 

We do not have a cleaner now. We aren't cancer caregiving. I don't work FT. We have a very compact living space. We have a tight budget. But I absolutely can not condone judging those who do, for pretty much any reason at all. Needing or wanting and then getting help =\= anything besides needing or wanting help.

Edited June 1, 2016 by 8circles

[regentrude]

Regentrude has 2 older children and works part time. Your family has one FT wage earner. If you both feel you have the time and energy to never hire cleaners, that's great but it doesn't make the conclusions you seem to be drawing about WHY people hire help accurate

 

I fail to see what me working PT (actually it has been FT for the past two years) or having older children (who were obviously younger children at some point) has to do with it, since I explained that my feelings of guilt about hiring household can be traced back to my childhood in a communist country - and thus are completely unrelated to how much I work or how many children I have to care for or how much time and energy I have.

 

I wrote only about my personal feelings and did not pronounce judgment on any person who hires household help. In fact, I explicitly stated that I can see situations in which even I would have no qualms about hiring help.

 

ETA: Also, if I recall correctly, the entire discussion about household help in this thread began in relation to the original situation of an adult who neither has children to care for nor works.

Edited June 1, 2016 by regentrude

[8circles]

I fail to see what me working PT (actually it has been FT for the past two years) or having older children (who were obviously younger children at some point) has to do with it, since I explained that my feelings of guilt about hiring household can be traced back to my childhood in a communist country - and thus are completely unrelated to how much I work or how many children I have to care for or how much time and energy I have.

 

I wrote only about my personal feelings and did not pronounce judgment on any person who hires household help. In fact, I explicitly stated that I can see situations in which even I would have no qualms about hiring help.

And having an immigrant parent from a communist country it isn't hard to see why we have similar thoughts about it.

[Laura Corin]

Isn't this a common thing in some countries that the kids have responsibility for the classroom? I'm thinking Japan but I may be wrong.

 

That was also the case in China when I lived there: Friday evening was classroom-cleaning time.

 

I was just relating the reality of why it is. I didn't say it was right or wrong. The average American cannot pay someone as much as they make per hour. How would that work? My husband and I found a way around it by working opposing shifts. He worked days and I worked nights but I also understand not everyone can do that.

 

I don't know what the average American can afford, but I can say how it works for me.  I'm good at my job and bad at cleaning - I freely admit that I could be much better but I find cleaning boring.  When I moved to full-time work, I consciously set aside one morning of my salary to pay for one morning of a cleaner's time each week.  We pay very well and she is happy.  She earns slightly more per hour than I do, but I am completely content with that.  As I have now taken on my 91 year old mother, and have another unexpected family responsibility developing, it's absolutely the right thing for me and the family.

[LucyStoner]

8circles:

 

When people say that not hiring cleaners somehow indicates:

 

Humbleness

Character

Knowing that ones own shit stinks

 

Without any reference to why so many do hire cleaning help, there's an implied meaning that those hiring help perhaps lack those things or that awareness. Which frankly doesn't read very humbly to me. And as much as you know I like you it comes off as at least a touch judgmental.

 

Regentrude- Working FT with little kids is a different kettle of fish than working FT with older kids. Older kids who presumably can not only clean up after themselves but also help with considerably more housework than a child whose diapers still need to be rinsed out and washed. Being aware of that gulf has a lot to do with how one might feel about hiring help. I have so much less housework to do now that my youngest can unload the dishwasher and bickers with his brother over who "gets" to run the vacuum. It's night and day to when I hired a guy to come and clean 1-2x a week at my house. Now I can work *with* the boys, not against the crush of chores that their very existence generated.

[8circles]

I think the original question and been covered.  Just chiming in to say my perception of help at home is similar to regentrude's.  I would also say, though, that I think cleaning up after yourself & your household has lots and lots of value that I know I won't be able to adequately articulate.  But it isn't about it making more financial sense to be working than cleaning.  I'm sure that's very often true.  But there's way more to life/success/happiness than making financial sense.  It makes way more character sense to clean up after yourself than to pay someone else to do it.  For one, it keeps you humble as you realize your shit stinks just like everyone else's.  

 

 

8circles:

 

When people say that not hiring cleaners somehow indicates:

 

Humbleness

Character

Knowing that ones own shit stinks

 

Without any reference to why so many do hire cleaning help, there's an implied meaning that those hiring help perhaps lack those things or that awareness. Which frankly doesn't read very humbly to me. And as much as you know I like you it comes off as at least a touch judgmental.

 

 

I didn't say that "not hiring cleaners indicates" any of those things.  My post was in response to the question about what value is in cleaning up after yourself when you are able to earn more $$ doing other things with your time.  The context was people in an office taking turns cleaning up the shared kitchen, not cleaning up after lots of small children.  If you are reading an implication there of character lacking, there isn't one.  That's on you because I didn't say it.  I am not a paragon of humbleness and have never claimed to be.  I haven't actually said anything about my cleaning habits in this thread except that I can't afford to pay to have someone else do it.  Again, reading into my post as claiming to be humble is on you because I didn't say it.  But I can say that when I do get around to cleaning my kitchen and bathrooms (not my kids bathroom, but my own which I only share with my DH), it is a humbling experience.  Which doesn't mean I'm actually claiming any level of humility.

 

I haven't said anything about the characters of people who hire help, just that there is value in cleaning up after yourself.   But thanks for calling me judgemental.

[frogger]

You can't. It would be impossible for someone to make $10/hr then turn around and pay the sitter $10/hr.

 

I wouldn't suggest underpaying anyone but all there are a lot of factors to consider. The WOH mom pays for childcare, gas, and other costs to have her job. An in home sitter does NOT. If you count that she's already made more than the WOH mom. Plus a WOH mom with a job gets all her income from that job. An in home sitter usually has 1-4 families they do child care for so their income is coming from multiple places.

 

A little play math: WOH mom works 40 hr/wk making $10/hr and spends $40/wk on gas + $3/hr for childcare (45 hrs paid adding in 30 min commute/leeway time both ways for 5 days/wk). Mom made $400 - $40 gas - $134 child care = $225 take home. In home sitter charges $3/hr per child and keeps 4 kids for 45 hr each week. So $3/hr x 4 kids x 45 hrs = $540. In home sitter made at least DOUBLE what the WOH mom made. * These are just a simple example but it shows that a mom can easily pay just $2-3/hr and not be cheating or underpaying the sitter in any way even if they mom makes $10 or more an hour. The in home sitter wouldn't make any money if she only kept one child at $2-3/hr but that is her issue not the mom's. This is for in home child care though... nanny type situations where the sitter is dedicated to your child(ren) only require a different pay scale.

 

In home sitter keeps 4 kids, each from a different family, at $3/hr per child = $12/hr income.

Yes, but you aren't including licensing, safety stuff, cleaning supplies, first aid training and each state has different regulations on different numbers of children. For example, if you take an infant in it drastically reduces your ability to take in more children. I believe in our state the max number of infants is two or three if you don't have other children. I can see how it would be tempting to just not accept infants. I just read an article that there simply isn't enough providers in our state. Parents are on wait lists for months. Sometimes they get calls years later saying an opening is finally available. Usually by then they hopefully found someone else but yes, there is a disconnect between what parents can or are willing to pay and the actual value of the job. Sorry but you would have to pay me a lot to take care of kids all day. I can also see how parents can only afford so much especially if you are a single parent.

[frogger]

That was also the case in China when I lived there: Friday evening was classroom-cleaning time.

 

 

I don't know what the average American can afford, but I can say how it works for me. I'm good at my job and bad at cleaning - I freely admit that I could be much better but I find cleaning boring. When I moved to full-time work, I consciously set aside one morning of my salary to pay for one morning of a cleaner's time each week. We pay very well and she is happy. She earns slightly more per hour than I do, but I am completely content with that. As I have now taken on my 91 year old mother, and have another unexpected family responsibility developing, it's absolutely the right thing for me and the family.

 

Laura, I was responding to someone about the difference in pay between caretakers and cleaners. It is easier to afford a cleaner than a caretaker which is needed many more hours a week. Sorry for the misunderstanding. 

 

Ok, when I quote it takes out the in bedded quotes. That explains a lot of confusion. There was a quote of mine before yours. Bother, I guess I need to learn how to put quotes back into a section I quoted. 

Edited June 1, 2016 by frogger

[SKL]

I also felt the implication that cleaning one's own house relates to "character" was a bit judgmental.  One needn't use the words "you are" in order to imply judgment.

 

I come from a culture where people would get judgmental about not cleaning one's own house.  I own it.  It was hard for me to shake that off.  It wasn't a matter of character though, not really.

 

I would also say that if you base character (yours or anyone's) on what you physically do, it's going to fall apart for you if you ever get sick or injured or frail enough that you can't do it all.  Some day you may very well have to swallow your pride and call someone to come and help you clean your house or even your body.

[heartlikealion]

You can't. It would be impossible for someone to make $10/hr then turn around and pay the sitter $10/hr.

 

I wouldn't suggest underpaying anyone but all there are a lot of factors to consider. The WOH mom pays for childcare, gas, and other costs to have her job. An in home sitter does NOT. If you count that she's already made more than the WOH mom. Plus a WOH mom with a job gets all her income from that job. An in home sitter usually has 1-4 families they do child care for so their income is coming from multiple places.

 

A little play math: WOH mom works 40 hr/wk making $10/hr and spends $40/wk on gas + $3/hr for childcare (45 hrs paid adding in 30 min commute/leeway time both ways for 5 days/wk). Mom made $400 - $40 gas - $134 child care = $225 take home. In home sitter charges $3/hr per child and keeps 4 kids for 45 hr each week. So $3/hr x 4 kids x 45 hrs = $540. In home sitter made at least DOUBLE what the WOH mom made. * These are just a simple example but it shows that a mom can easily pay just $2-3/hr and not be cheating or underpaying the sitter in any way even if they mom makes $10 or more an hour. The in home sitter wouldn't make any money if she only kept one child at $2-3/hr but that is her issue not the mom's. This is for in home child care though... nanny type situations where the sitter is dedicated to your child(ren) only require a different pay scale. 

 

 In home sitter keeps 4 kids, each from a different family, at $3/hr per child = $12/hr income. 

 

I'm sure the in-home sitter has expenses, too. Maybe they provide the snacks/meals. Or maybe not, maybe the WOH sends a lunch and snack. But maybe their water bill goes up with everyone using the potty all day. Or maybe there's some other random expense.

 

I just cannot fathom paying anyone $3/hr for childcare on a regular basis and calling it fair because they have a lot of clients to make ends meet. Um, that also sounds like a lot of chaos and/or stress. Not worth the cost to me if I was the sitter. Maybe for some sitters this is not a hard task. Not all WOH moms have a commute that equals $40/week in gas. Let's say the sitter and the work are both within a few miles of the WOHM's house. When I was working outside of the home I lived about a mile from my job. And dh and I worked alternating shifts so we didn't pay for daycare. I guess the in home sitter has the advantage that they can charge per kid/per hour and essentially come up with what they deem a fair rate so in that sense I mean I guess if they see it as fair then so should I. /shrug.

[heartlikealion]

I also felt the implication that cleaning one's own house relates to "character" was a bit judgmental.  One needn't use the words "you are" in order to imply judgment.

 

I come from a culture where people would get judgmental about not cleaning one's own house.  I own it.  It was hard for me to shake that off.  It wasn't a matter of character though, not really.

 

I would also say that if you base character (yours or anyone's) on what you physically do, it's going to fall apart for you if you ever get sick or injured or frail enough that you can't do it all.  Some day you may very well have to swallow your pride and call someone to come and help you clean your house or even your body.

 

I doubt anyone that judges character based on outsourcing for cleaning is including cases in which it is physically impossible to do it yourself. But then again maybe they expect someone else in the family to step up vs hiring out.

 

I say do whatever works for you and your household. Whatever that may be. I could use cleaning help, but I have a lot of hang ups (like I need to declutter before I could even imagine asking anyone to clean). That's my personal problem, though. I have a cousin that has two nannies and four children. It's the cultural norm in his wife's culture to have a nanny and they don't live in the US. She was unaware that this was odd in America I guess because she was in shock when she found out my grandma didn't have any help.

[SKL]

Re the cost of child care, $3 sounds low by modern standards, but that depends on the age too.  My kids' aftercare program is $1.50/hr/kid, because all the kids are school-age and the facility is available for use without any extra fuss.  They have one or two adults to a roomful of kids who all know how to entertain themselves.

 

There are reasons why a mom would pay child care almost what she earns on a temporary basis.  It could be a short-term investment in holding onto a long-term career, or holding a place for the child long-term.  Prices go down as kids get older.  Career people might have saved up money during their child-free days in order to spend it on good care / education when the time comes.  Believe me, having a reliable safe place for kids to be when I'm elsewhere is very valuable.

[8circles]

I also felt the implication that cleaning one's own house relates to "character" was a bit judgmental.  One needn't use the words "you are" in order to imply judgment.

 

I come from a culture where people would get judgmental about not cleaning one's own house.  I own it.  It was hard for me to shake that off.  It wasn't a matter of character though, not really.

 

I would also say that if you base character (yours or anyone's) on what you physically do, it's going to fall apart for you if you ever get sick or injured or frail enough that you can't do it all.  Some day you may very well have to swallow your pride and call someone to come and help you clean your house or even your body.

 

You're talking about my post but you are clearly not understanding what I said.  Nor do you have to if you don't want to.

 

I think we all come from cultures which become ingrained to a certain degree which affect our perception of everything, including having help to clean your house or take care of your kids or do the laundry or maintain the cars or maintain the yard.  I own mine as well and have explained it in this thread.

 

I don't base my character or anyone else's on physical acts.  But to say that our actions (physical or mental or emotional or or or ...) don't have any connection to our character is a foreign concept.  Lots of things (not only cleaning toilets) CAN & DO build character and pointing out those connections doesn't mean people who don't do those things don't have certain character traits.   

 

So here's a recap of this tangent:

- What's the value in people cleaning up after themselves in a work environment instead of doing their actual jobs?

me - cleaning up after yourself can be a humbling experience and can have a positive affect on one's character

- Wow, how judgemental.  You don't sound very humble.

- So people who have house cleaners are jerks?  What about people who are unable to physically clean up after themselves?

 

Alrighty-then.

[SKL]

nm

Edited June 1, 2016 by SKL

[8circles]

When multiple people react to my posts with offense, I go back and look at how I worded them and see if part of the problem is the way I composed my post.  Sometimes it is, and I edit.

 

Thanks for the stealth advice, SKL.  Sometimes it isn't.

[heartlikealion]

Re the cost of child care, $3 sounds low by modern standards, but that depends on the age too.  My kids' aftercare program is $1.50/hr/kid, because all the kids are school-age and the facility is available for use without any extra fuss.  They have one or two adults to a roomful of kids who all know how to entertain themselves.

 

There are reasons why a mom would pay child care almost what she earns on a temporary basis.  It could be a short-term investment in holding onto a long-term career, or holding a place for the child long-term.  Prices go down as kids get older.  Career people might have saved up money during their child-free days in order to spend it on good care / education when the time comes.  Believe me, having a reliable safe place for kids to be when I'm elsewhere is very valuable.

 

Wow, that sounds like an amazing price. I don't know what the average cost is, though.

 

Yes, I can also see times when paying someone close to your earnings per hour would make sense because you aren't paying them all day. Parents that work min. wage jobs probably occasionally pay sitters and the sitter might make as much or more than them if we're looking at hourly rate, but sometimes you do these things.

[SKL]

nm
 

Edited June 1, 2016 by SKL

[8circles]

"It makes way more character sense to clean up after yourself than to pay someone else to do it.  For one, it keeps you humble as you realize your shit stinks just like everyone else's."

 

The same could be applied to cleaning up one's words when they aren't taken as you intended.

 

 

 

Yes, "character sense" as opposed to "financial sense".  

 

I intended them in a non-offensive way and I've explained them a couple of times now and I don't think the actual meaning of them is offensive.  I even prefaced them with admitting I might not articulate my ideas well.  What point would there be in going back and "correcting" something which I already explained as best I could besides confusing and/or irritating subsequent readers of the thread?

[SKL]

nm

Edited June 1, 2016 by SKL

[8circles]

The people who haven't seen your post yet might continue to react to it in ways that you don't intend (since they would not have the benefit of your later clarifications right away).  Editing it would reduce that likelihood.  I've been in hot water lots of times over my post wording, so that's my preferred fix when it happens to me.

 

And I don't think anything needs fixing.  But I really appreciate your concern.

[Ausmumof3]

I do think there's character building in some cleaning. But i also think it's good for kids to cook a meal, and sew themselves something to wear so they have a bit of appreciation for their clothes and the work to make them. That said factory clothes might be produced more efficiently than one ofs at home and I've never thought they should have to build a car to appreciate riding in one so maybe it's all nonsense.

 

Most of the domestic cleaners I know of are mums looking for a bit of supplement to an adequate family income to pay for a decent holiday. It's relatively flexible, can be done during school hours and has a small set up cost. Transcription typing work is also good. I don't think any of them feel oppressed but they might if they had to do it to survive instead of for a bit of extra income.

[eternalsummer]

I dunno, I think it's complicated.  I feel bad enough about the idea of having someone else clean my house that I couldn't and don't hire that work out (nor do I pay anyone to watch my kids, for the same reason) - even though if I did, I could push our small business forward and make a lot more money than I'd pay for cleaning help, even at a really really good wage.

 

But while I buy mostly made in USA clothing, there are some products I am content to have made in third world countries (socks) - not because I can't do it (I guess I could learn to knit a sock) but because it's just not time-efficient, and there's enough separation between me and the person making the socks so that I am not confronted with the disparity.

 

Logically it doesn't seem that different, though.

[frogger]

 

 

But while I buy mostly made in USA clothing, there are some products I am content to have made in third world countries (socks) - not because I can't do it (I guess I could learn to knit a sock) but because it's just not time-efficient, and there's enough separation between me and the person making the socks so that I am not confronted with the disparity.

 

Logically it doesn't seem that different, though.

This is off topic but just wanted to say I have some Darn Tough socks made in Vermont that have lasted years. I think the pair I'm wearing now are 6 years old. I know because I bought three sets of one color when they were on sale to test them and then a few years later I shelled out money for three more sets so I can rotate them better. I was so impressed. The six year old pair does have a hole in the bottom but it's not spreading. Considering how fast cheap socks disintegrate they are much cheaper long term. I can't bring myself to buy them for the kids yet because they outgrow them and lose them etc. I have rough heels. The really cheap socks would last me a few wears before ripping.

[fraidycat]

And I don't think anything needs fixing. But I really appreciate your concern.

Honestly, when I read your first post, my first thought was "jerk much?". It is not just Lucy and SKL who read judgement in your post. You did not specify that you were talking about the value of cleaning in the workplace and you did not quote which question you were replying to.

 

Perhaps rewording to include the fact that you are talking about value IN THE WORKPLACE to your original post, it will not be misconstrued. As it stands now, it does not read nicely at all.

Edited June 1, 2016 by fraidycat

[eternalsummer]

This is off topic but just wanted to say I have some Darn Tough socks made in Vermont that have lasted years. I think the pair I'm wearing now are 6 years old. I know because I bought three sets of one color when they were on sale to test them and then a few years later I shelled out money for three more sets so I can rotate them better. I was so impressed. The six year old pair does have a hole in the bottom but it's not spreading. Considering how fast cheap socks disintegrate they are much cheaper long term. I can't bring myself to buy them for the kids yet because they outgrow them and lose them etc. I have rough heels. The really cheap socks would last me a few wears before ripping.

 

Cool, will look them up!

 

I buy socks for DH that are made in USA (of American wool, no less!) but the kids lose them a lot and steal mine :)

[SKL]

I'm not actually sure my socks are made by humans.

 

Just for the record, I really like and respect hands-on work.  I like a lot of things that aren't practical for me to do given 24 hours in a day.  :)  I regret that I don't have more time to spend with my kids doing these things.  But I don't regret the things I do manage to fit into our schedule.  Can't have everything.  :)

[madteaparty]

My mom has a cleaning lady who comes every two weeks. It turned into more of a charity project: mom has to straighten before the lady comes, and the cleaner does not really clean all that great, mom could do a much better job herself. It is also weird for my mother to have her there; she feels she needs to work at something because it makes her very uncomfortable sitting leisurely while another person is cleaning her house. It was not something she grew up with or ever experienced until in her 60s, and she is not fully comfortable with it.

Neither am I; this is where having grow up in a communist society really screwed my perspective, and I don't think I'll ever get over it.

My former communist country family has far far more help than I do here in the US ;) I also have twice a month help any only wish it were slightly better quality. And I've cleaned other people's houses too. I have zero guilt outsourcing it all. There's no reward in doing the hard way, and I did it the hard way for many years. Now the cooking I can't outsource.

[hornblower]

. Now the cooking I can't outsource.

 

 

there's always takeout LOL 

 

I actually dream of having a cook. I'd love love love to have a cook. 

[Ausmumof3]

I remember being really surprised when reading a 19th century book about a poor family struggling to find the funds for a month nurse. Basically a woman who came in after childbirth to care for mum and household after childbirth. This was considered necessary in the family even though finances were a struggle even to the point of struggling to provide food. I guess domestic work was much heavier and harder. Sometimes the month nurse only came for two weeks. I often wonder how many postpartum problems could be reduced if new mums still had the level of support that was a basic expectation 200years ago.

[gypsymama]

I'm sure the in-home sitter has expenses, too. Maybe they provide the snacks/meals. Or maybe not, maybe the WOH sends a lunch and snack. But maybe their water bill goes up with everyone using the potty all day. Or maybe there's some other random expense.

 

I just cannot fathom paying anyone $3/hr for childcare on a regular basis and calling it fair because they have a lot of clients to make ends meet. Um, that also sounds like a lot of chaos and/or stress. Not worth the cost to me if I was the sitter. Maybe for some sitters this is not a hard task. Not all WOH moms have a commute that equals $40/week in gas. Let's say the sitter and the work are both within a few miles of the WOHM's house. When I was working outside of the home I lived about a mile from my job. And dh and I worked alternating shifts so we didn't pay for daycare. I guess the in home sitter has the advantage that they can charge per kid/per hour and essentially come up with what they deem a fair rate so in that sense I mean I guess if they see it as fair then so should I. /shrug.

 

It's going to depend on the area and it was just an example. The figures I was spinning that estimate off of are from years of babysitting and using child care in a low income, mostly rural area. Most families have a 10-30 min drive to work. It's normal. It's actually not entirely unusual for some families to have a 45 min drive just because of the location of their rural home and the roads they have to use. The gas costs go up quite a bit in that situation. The laws are different by state but where I lived an in home sitter can keep up to 6 kids (other than her own) so the 4 is a low estimate, day cares would have providers in charge of at least 4 and usually more kids so you'd still get a lower child to provider ratio with in home care. $3/hr for 45 hrs equals $135 week.... in that area a day care would be $75-125/wk depending on the age of the child and a daily rate would usually be $10 or $15 per day per child. The $3/hr comes out to more per hr than either of those calculations. Like I said I know it's going to vary by area but where I lived it was a good rate (and paying that decent rate didn't have to take all of the WOH mom's income). Unless it's a very temporary situation there is no way that someone can pay a sitter the SAME rate they make.