ELTL Users...

[AFthfulJrney]

Do you find that ELTL is complete, or do you feel the need to supplement?

 

I bought ELTL to use with my 4th and 2nd grader next year and I was just curious if I needed to add anything else for spelling instruction? Other than that, it looks pretty good and I'm excited to give it a try.

[UCF612]

I've been debating this myself. We are planning to use ELTL next year. I'm going to add AAS because we already own it and I want to complete the series. I'm more unsure on grammar. Part of me wants to keep going with Fix It since it can be done quickly each day. The other part of me doesn't want to add something just to add it. So I'm interested in opinions.

[AFthfulJrney]

I've been debating this myself. We are planning to use ELTL next year. I'm going to add AAS because we already own it and I want to complete the series. I'm more unsure on grammar. Part of me wants to keep going with Fix It since it can be done quickly each day. The other part of me doesn't want to add something just to add it. So I'm interested in opinions.

This is how I'm feeling...not wanting to add something just to add it. I'm also wandering which spelling would be a good fit.

[TheAttachedMama]

Do you have a "Natural Speller"?   A child who can learn to spell words from doing basic copywork and  reading a lot?   If so, I don't think you need to supplement at all.   I think a lot of kids will learn to spell well just from reading a lot and seeing words written properly.

 

 

My two older children are both dyslexic, so we need to supplement spelling.   My one child does Apples and Pears spelling.   My other child does All About Spelling.   (because they both have different needs when it comes to spelling.)    BUT--I would say that my kids spelling needs are the exception--not the norm.   Most kids will do fine without supplementation.  

 

As far as grammar goes, I do not think you need to supplement.   ELTL is complete when it comes to grammar.   If you feel like the lower levels are light, just wait!   It ramps up, and everything is reviewed over and over again.   :) :) :)  

 

In general, be VERY careful when it comes to supplementing an already complete program.   The author of ELTL wrote a short paper which discusses why this is something to avoid.   I think it is a good read!   It expresses my thoughts on over supplementation perfectly!   

Edited May 25, 2016 by TheAttachedMama

[Ahodgson923]

We are doing ELTL as a stand alone next year and then RLTL for spelling/reading. My kids are coming out of public school K and 2nd (2 more weeks!!!) and are fairly decent with reading and spelling. I am not a fan of the methods in which they were taught in public school, however. I have decided to back them way up and do RLTL 1 with both kids to teach phonograms and go from there.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Ahodgson923

[CTVKath]

My plan for my 7yo next year is to use ELTL 1 and finish Phonics Pathways. Once she finishes Phonics Pathways, I plan to add Spellwell for spelling.

[MotherOfBoys]

I don't think the grammar needs supplementing. I'm worried about the writing. I don't know where she's headed since I've only bought through level 3. Do I need to continue WWE4 and WWS or can I drop that now?

[AFthfulJrney]

Do you have a "Natural Speller"? A child who can learn to spell words from doing basic copywork and reading a lot? If so, I don't think you need to supplement at all. I think a lot of kids will learn to spell well just from reading a lot and seeing words written properly.

 

 

My two older children are both dyslexic, so we need to supplement spelling. My one child does Apples and Pears spelling. My other child does All About Spelling. (because they both have different needs when it comes to spelling.) BUT--I would say that my kids spelling needs are the exception--not the norm. Most kids will do fine without supplementation.

 

As far as grammar goes, I do not think you need to supplement. ELTL is complete when it comes to grammar. If you feel like the lower levels are light, just wait! It ramps up, and everything is reviewed over and over again. :) :) :)

 

In general, be VERY careful when it comes to supplementing an already complete program. The author of ELTL wrote a short paper which discusses why this is something to avoid. I think it is a good read! It expresses my thoughts on over supplementation perfectly!

Thank you so much for your reply! I 'm definitely trying to avoid over supplementation. I want our days to be meaningful not crammed full of too much stuff. To be honest, I'm not really sure if my kids are natural spellers. My 7 year old is still learning to read and my 9 year old spells by sounding words out. Sometimes she gets them right, sometimes she gets them wrong. :) Would you suggest I just give the program a chance first before adding anything in to see how she does?

 

And...another thing I am stumped on is a writing program. I bought Story Starters used a while ago. Have never really looked through it yet, but would it be a good place to start, or should I start with something else altogether, or simply just wait? My oldest is 9 (4th grade).

Edited May 25, 2016 by AFthfulJrney

[AFthfulJrney]

We are doing ELTL as a stand alone next year and then RLTL for spelling/reading. My kids are coming out of public school K and 2nd (2 more weeks!!!) and are fairly decent with reading and spelling. I am not a fan of the methods in which they were taught in public school, however. I have decided to back them way up and do RLTL 1 with both kids to teach phonograms and go from there.

I'm using RLTL1 with my 7 year old. He's still not a fluent reader, but he's getting there. I also purchased ELTL 1 for him and just ELTL 4 for my 9 year old who is reading fluently.

[AFthfulJrney]

My plan for my 7yo next year is to use ELTL 1 and finish Phonics Pathways. Once she finishes Phonics Pathways, I plan to add Spellwell for spelling.

I have RLTL 1 and ELTL 1 to use with my 7 year old who is still learning how to read. I'll be using RLTL throughout the summer then adding in ELTL in the fall...if he does well with his reading this summer.

[AFthfulJrney]

I don't think the grammar needs supplementing. I'm worried about the writing. I don't know where she's headed since I've only bought through level 3. Do I need to continue WWE4 and WWS or can I drop that now?

I'm also wondering about writing. I've yet to do any formal writing program with my children. My oldest is 9. I purchased Story Starters used awhile ago...wondering if this would be a good place to start or if I should purchase something else?

[UCF612]

After reading this post I'm leaning towards not doing any added grammar. I do intend to do Treasured Conversations and The Most Wonderful Writing Lessons with my older son in addition to ELTL. I'm putting him in level 3 as a 4th grader so hopefully adding writing won't be too much. I'm not sure if I'll continue AAS with him, he's a natural speller for sure. My youngest needs concrete rules and repetition so he will continue in AAS. He's not a natural in the language arts. He'll be doing level 2 as a 2nd grader.

Edited May 25, 2016 by UCF612

[MotherOfBoys]

After reading that linked article up the thread I'm thinking harder about avoiding supplements. Extra writing with eltl probably isnt needed at this age.

 

Thank you

[TX Pilgrim]

ELTL takes a longer view on writing - more in line with traditional classical approaches and CM.  CM did not encourage students to begin writing narrations until they were at least 10, before that students perfect the oral narration. By age 10 most children are comfortable with the physical aspects of writing, have more things worth saying and many have a better grasp of spelling so there aren't as many stumbling blocks to getting thoughts onto paper.

 

I am finishing up level 3 of ELTL with my oldest who is 9 and in "3rd grade".  (I actually started ELTL too early with him and had to take a break year before we did the 3rd level). The first two levels focus primarily on copywork so that students see and write things worth the knowing and correctly.  In level 3, students work on narrating a piece over the course of 2 weeks (6 lessons).  The teacher writes the "final narration" for them and the student does studied dictation from that narration.  

 

Dictation is a bridge for both spelling and composition in more classical traditions.  It is a bridge for spelling because students are to study the words that are a part of the dictation - see them in their minds - and learn to spell them as a part of the process (mine is NOT great at this).  It is a bridge for writing because it moves the child from directly copying to needing to recall how the sentence is put together (punctuation, capitalization, spelling, etc.) so that they match the model exactly.   Devore does a great job explaining how to do studied dictation in the introduction of these books.  In level 3 she also introduces exercises that help students think about word choice and sentence construction.  (So to the question of spelling - if you think your child can learn to spell through dictation and copywork then ELTL is enough. If not, you might want a more directed approach.  Also, traditionally spelling was not really something that was a focus until at least 8 or 9 - unless you are using a program that uses spelling as the basis of reading)

 

We will start level 4 next year and I can see that it has more written composition activities. These are in keeping with the progymnasmata rather than our current method of teaching writing.  

 

If your children are not regularly narrating aloud then you are missing the composition piece of the program in levels 1 and 2. (if you want to learn more about narration this is a good podcast)  This idea that oral narration should be the primary form of development until at least 9 was pretty standard, only recently have we started to encouraging writing paragraphs and essays earlier than that.  Also, we are used to more "creative" writing and then wonder why our kids have very little to say.  The approach that ELTL uses gives students the text and subject to think about so that they are focusing on composition and not topic selection and coming up with ideas. Eventually, they will come up with their own thoughts (it's called invention and it used to be learned starting around 11 or 12).  When they are this young,if you want to focus on actual composition, it is best to give them something to work with (IEW, CAPs program and MP all work on the same premise).  

 

Through a co-op we added more English this year.  I kept ELTL though because I think it is simple and thorough.  My son's teacher was impressed with his grammar knowledge (trust me - he does the bare minimum) and he can compose aloud pretty much on the fly now (which he tried to do when he left his homework at home).  Level 4, moving into more written composition, is where he is at (he will be turning 10 - just like all the old English teachers say)!  The co-op did have a more traditional approach to writing and we did the homework.  In the end, he learned more from our narration, copywork and dictation in ELTL.   He did write a "research paper" but it made me appreciate the process ELTL takes all the more. 

 

All that to say, if you are hearing about your friends in PS writing the five paragraph essay in 3rd grade - that is not what ELTL is designed to do.  The approach is totally different.  This deep desire to do everything earlier does not necessarily mesh with a student's real ability.  Because oral composition pretty much CAN'T happen in school (too many children and no written record) they can't use it.  However, if you read older texts about teaching English they ALL assume that oral composition is the foundation of composition.  Likewise, if you are looking for a more current "creative writing" curriculum this is not it. She takes the traditional approach that by hearing good stories (and lots of them) students will become more creative storytellers.  By reading and narrating these stories they learn about themes, characters, descriptions, settings, etc. naturally and will bring them to mind as they start to try their hand at their own stories. 

 

There is a method to her madness, it is a the more traditional approach and it won't get results "as fast" as our modern programs.  It is incremental but age appropriate and helps students feel successful as they move through the steps.  Your students will "catch up" and have so much more to say because they have had such a varied background - fables, tales, poems, nature stories, great books, etc. - that she has put all at your fingertips in ELTL.  They will write because it is the natural way to reflect on what they are reading and learning. It helps them to order their thoughts and share them with others.  It encourages them to see writing as a natural part of learning - not something you do just for an assignment. 

 

This turned out very long - but hopefully it is helpful. 

[Slache]

This turned out very long - but hopefully it is helpful.

It was wonderful! Thank you!

[UCF612]

Thank you! That was encouraging to read.

[greyseal]

Wow, I was all set to say some stuff, but TX Pilgrim pretty much covered it! 

 

I'm not going to say I haven't had some doubts about the process (we've done 3 levels of ELTL) as I've observed our PS friends' kids writing far more intensively than does my child. But this year, as we've started working in CAP Fable (as a break from 3 straight years of ELTL), I've seen the development and knowledge my DD has gained from using ELTL. I'm pleased with the choice I made to use the curriculum. 

 

And, as I said in another thread, we haven't even read all of the assigned books. Where my daughter wasn't loving a piece of literature, we simply moved on and tried something different, while keeping with the written and narrative portions of ELTL. It didn't seem to make any difference in her grasp of the material. This might be worth considering for those who prefer more modern literature choices, yet like the general idea and philosophy behind ELTL.

[vaquitita]

In level 3, students work on narrating a piece over the course of 2 weeks (6 lessons). The teacher writes the "final narration" for them and the student does studied dictation from that narration.

I have a question for you. I'm just got my ELTL 3 book in the mail and as I flip through it I see places where it says to do written narration, but doesn't specify which story. Also, I don't see instruction to write down their oral narration. Is is something I'm just supposed to do every time? Are there reminders to do so?

[TX Pilgrim]

Hi.  She doesn't remind you do to the oral narration after every story in level 3 (you don't need to do it for EVERY story).  I think she does mention it more frequently in the younger levels.  You can also ask them to narrate the literature book they are reading. Every 6 lessons it says "Writing: Written Narration" and the title says which story should have the written narration - For example: Narration: Beauty and the Brownie is the title for lesson 18.  You are always narrating one of the tales. If you have the workbook she provides two pages for the narration (my son is not wordy so we normally get about 1/2 a page) and then another page for the dictation.  

 

Glad it has been helpful.  

[vaquitita]

OH the title of the lesson tells you which story, how did I miss that? Lol

[boscopup]

I'm using levels 2, 3, and 5 right now. We started them about a month before our school year ended. My kids are going to be in grades 2, 4, and 7 when we start back up. Yes, the oldest is working 2 levels behind, but I'm cool with it. It's been a good fit for him, and I don't think the level will matter much in the long run. That and level 6 isn't out yet. ;)

 

Level 2 is all copywork and oral narration. My kid that's doing that level is a natural speller, so I'm not using spelling with him even though there is no "spelling" involved in this level. He really doesn't need it.

 

Level 3 has copywork, oral narration, and dictation. There is dictation twice a week. The kid using this level is not a natural speller (and may even be mildly dyslexic), but he is doing well with the studied dictation method. We look at the passage, find any words he doesn't know how to spell, then analyze them a la Spalding/SWR type methods. So he is learning the how and why of spelling in the context of what he's writing from dictation. This is studied dictation, so we don't write it until he thinks he knows how to spell all the words and knows where all the punctuation goes. I was a little worried about dictation with him, because writing is a very weak spot for him, but level 3 has had exactly the right level of dictation for him. So it's all been good. :)

 

Level 5 has copywork (usually 1/2-1 page in their commonplace book), oral narration, dictation (often a paragraph), and written narration. The commonplace book entries are done daily, dictation is twice a week (and again, it's lengthy), and a writing assignment is once a week. The first week was literary analysis. He was to write a narration about one of the assigned short stories (there were two of them), then include if he had sympathy for one of the characters and tell why or why not. The next week is a condensed narrative (summary), there is writing an outline, various descriptive writing assignments, etc. The last lesson in the book has them write a persuasive essay with introduction and conclusion. Each week has added a chunk to their writing toolbox. Looking ahead, I like where it's leading.

 

Oh, and level 5 spelling, I'm doing the same thing with this child as I am doing with the level 3 child - pick out the words he doesn't know how to spell, analyze them, study the dictation for several minutes before writing it. I also have this child keep a spelling journal, as is recommended in the curriculum (she has a free download for that). This child is not a natural speller, but he is able to notice a word is misspelled visually and often can fix it. His rough drafts are typically riddled with spelling errors (and the occasional letter reversal, which we both laugh about together), but I can tell him to find the misspelled words and correct them, and most of the time he can do it. He might have a couple he doesn't know how to spell, but he can tell what he wrote was wrong. He reads a LOT, so I guess he has a good visual memory for spelling, but it took him a while for his physical writing ability to catch up with his brain, and the spelling hasn't fully integrated with the writing yet. It's getting there though! I've seen such huge progress the last 2 years, I can't believe it!

 

So anyway, right now, I have no plans to supplement ELTL at all. It is our complete English course. The boys are enjoying it. They love the books they're supposed to read. And now we're being more consistent with copywork, dictation, oral narration, and written narration every week. Plus we're actually reading poetry every day, doing picture study every couple weeks, etc. All the things that I wanted to do but could never pull together myself and be consistent with... it's right there, done for me. :) I think some of my friends are tired of hearing how much I love ELTL. :lol: (and we're using Wayfarers also and loving that!)

 

[boscopup]

OH the title of the lesson tells you which story, how did I miss that? Lol

 

It's really easy to miss! It took me a while to figure it out when I got to lesson 6. Then I finally realized it was right next to the big number 6 - "Narration: The Otters and the Wolf". :lol:

 

I'm thinking one of the other levels had the model story mentioned in a different place, and it was easier to notice it. Not sure. Anyway, the model story is introduced in lesson 1, then the written narration (dictated from their oral narration) is done in lesson 6. This pattern repeats. So every 2 weeks you have a new model story, and at the end of the 2 weeks, you write down the narration (or part of it).

[TheAttachedMama]

I'm using levels 2, 3, and 5 right now. We started them about a month before our school year ended. My kids are going to be in grades 2, 4, and 7 when we start back up. Yes, the oldest is working 2 levels behind, but I'm cool with it. It's been a good fit for him, and I don't think the level will matter much in the long run. That and level 6 isn't out yet. ;)

 

Level 2 is all copywork and oral narration. My kid that's doing that level is a natural speller, so I'm not using spelling with him even though there is no "spelling" involved in this level. He really doesn't need it.

 

Level 3 has copywork, oral narration, and dictation. There is dictation twice a week. The kid using this level is not a natural speller (and may even be mildly dyslexic), but he is doing well with the studied dictation method. We look at the passage, find any words he doesn't know how to spell, then analyze them a la Spalding/SWR type methods. So he is learning the how and why of spelling in the context of what he's writing from dictation. This is studied dictation, so we don't write it until he thinks he knows how to spell all the words and knows where all the punctuation goes. I was a little worried about dictation with him, because writing is a very weak spot for him, but level 3 has had exactly the right level of dictation for him. So it's all been good. :)

 

Level 5 has copywork (usually 1/2-1 page in their commonplace book), oral narration, dictation (often a paragraph), and written narration. The commonplace book entries are done daily, dictation is twice a week (and again, it's lengthy), and a writing assignment is once a week. The first week was literary analysis. He was to write a narration about one of the assigned short stories (there were two of them), then include if he had sympathy for one of the characters and tell why or why not. The next week is a condensed narrative (summary), there is writing an outline, various descriptive writing assignments, etc. The last lesson in the book has them write a persuasive essay with introduction and conclusion. Each week has added a chunk to their writing toolbox. Looking ahead, I like where it's leading.

 

Oh, and level 5 spelling, I'm doing the same thing with this child as I am doing with the level 3 child - pick out the words he doesn't know how to spell, analyze them, study the dictation for several minutes before writing it. I also have this child keep a spelling journal, as is recommended in the curriculum (she has a free download for that). This child is not a natural speller, but he is able to notice a word is misspelled visually and often can fix it. His rough drafts are typically riddled with spelling errors (and the occasional letter reversal, which we both laugh about together), but I can tell him to find the misspelled words and correct them, and most of the time he can do it. He might have a couple he doesn't know how to spell, but he can tell what he wrote was wrong. He reads a LOT, so I guess he has a good visual memory for spelling, but it took him a while for his physical writing ability to catch up with his brain, and the spelling hasn't fully integrated with the writing yet. It's getting there though! I've seen such huge progress the last 2 years, I can't believe it!

 

So anyway, right now, I have no plans to supplement ELTL at all. It is our complete English course. The boys are enjoying it. They love the books they're supposed to read. And now we're being more consistent with copywork, dictation, oral narration, and written narration every week. Plus we're actually reading poetry every day, doing picture study every couple weeks, etc. All the things that I wanted to do but could never pull together myself and be consistent with... it's right there, done for me. :) I think some of my friends are tired of hearing how much I love ELTL. :lol: (and we're using Wayfarers also and loving that!)

 

Can I ask you a question:    What exactly do you use for a common place book?   Next year my son will be moving up to ELTL 4 which starts "common placing".    I am tempted to buy him a handsome fancy journal or something.   BUT---I feel like he still needs handwriting lines.   I fear his cursive will get too sloppy without them.   The problem is, all the composition notebooks have really wide lines.   Also, do you still buy the workbook for levels 4 and up?  

 

 

Edited May 31, 2016 by TheAttachedMama

[boscopup]

 

 

Can I ask you a question: What exactly do you use for a common place book? Next year my son will be moving up to ELTL 4 which starts "common placing". I am tempted to buy him a handsome fancy journal or something. BUT---I feel like he still needs handwriting lines. I fear his cursive will get too sloppy without them. The problem is, all the composition notebooks have really wide lines. Also, do you still buy the workbook for levels 4 and up?

 

 

My son uses a regular college ruled notebook. My rising 4th grader is using level 3 and not doing a commonplace book yet. He still has the printed out copywork. He's not ready for regular ruled paper either.

 

You might look for one of those cursive handwriting notebooks with the smaller lines... I know they exist somewhere. Maybe someone else knows what I'm talking about.

 

I did buy the work for level 5. He can mark the passages for grammar in that. It's not necessary though. You could type it up yourself and just leave plenty of space between lines for markings. I don't think recall there being anything else in the level 5 workbook.

 

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