Should CPS be called??

[G5052]

I'd pursue every avenue with the friend first. Sometimes kids don't report what is really going on, and parents can be short-sighted and procrastinate. I've heard moms say things like "we didn't have time to do phonics this year so we'll do it this summer" when the kid is 7 and has never had consistent reading instruction.

 

Locally the police only handle truancy if they are an unregistered homeschooler or a homeschooler who was on probation for a year who still hasn't shown progress or filed other paperwork indicating a learning challenge. If you're a registered homeschooler and testing/eval is within the bounds (25th percentile or above), they're going to leave you alone no matter what anyone says.

 

CPS would pass it off to the police truancy section, and they would check with the county for registration before doing anything.

[Supergirl9801]

If this is even a real situation, start by talking to the parents. You may be way off in your assessment or not understand things going on or being done. Or maybe they just need to hear from a friend to help them through this.

 

Next step would be a truancy officer. 

 

The post seems somewhat suspicious since you seem to have arrived recently on these boards it appears, not a long time active poster who has had this come up.

Thank you everyone for your suggestions.  I have chatted with our other mutual friend and she is going to reach out to her.  I will as well when I encounter her next.  This is a totally real situation and yes, I am not the WTM forums, but not new to homeschooling.  I've just never really had time to be commenting on message boards.  I recently came here and joined b/c I was researching some curriculums.  

 

Some of you asked about how old the kids are...they are 12, 11, 11 (twins, one of which would probably be in special education class if in public school) and a 3 year old.  When the mom works, the kids are left home alone or their dad is home with them.

 

We are always reaching out and asking her to join in on activities.  In fact, she used to participate in our co-op.  But she's since stopped (a couple years ago) and doesn't participate in any other activities either (except for the dance/karate classes I mentioned).  The kids are able to read, so I do pray they are taking it upon themselves to learn on their own.  It's just heartbreaking to see a parent not show much of a desire to actually educate their children.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

Lots of us homeschool without going to co-ops.  Just because you don't see what is going on at home, doesn't mean that nothing is happening. 

[eternalsummer]

If they can read the situation is much (much) better than it could be. Does your DD know what the kids like to read? 

[Supergirl9801]

Lots of us homeschool without going to co-ops.  Just because you don't see what is going on at home, doesn't mean that nothing is happening. 

I understand that one can homeschool without going to a co-op.  I know many that do.  I base my assumptions on what the mother herself has told me (a lot of "Oh, I'm not sure yet what we're doing" half way through the year) and comments from the kids ("we haven't done "school" since the end of last year").  I would get it if the Mom were the un-schooling or student-led type of teaching style mama...but that's not the case.  She's bought workbooks and such in the past and that's her thing...it's just not happening anymore.  She's either feeling overwhelmed or just figures her kiddos will figure it out on her own b/c she did (her mom homeschooled her pretty much the same way).

[eternalsummer]

And again, it is entirely possible that either A. the mom/dad are completely ignoring the kids' education and they are being left to their own devices or B. the mom/dad are actively involved in the kids' education in a way neither you nor your DD (and maybe not even the kids themselves) perceive.

 

I could give my kids a halfway decent education just by strewing books and talking about things.   All we'd be neglecting at that point would be writing and math, both of which can be taught pretty painlessly in a contextual way until you get to say algebra.  

 

I could definitely teach kids until 11 or 12 without their knowing or other adults/kids knowing that they were being taught.  :)

 

On the other hand, if it is actually A. (no education) and the kids have just picked up reading somewhere, it should be really pretty easy to give the mom a hand or give her some suggestions for acceptable educational systems.  Lots of online programs the kids can probably do more or less independently; you can always say to the mom, hey, I have these books we've gone through, would any of yours be interested in them before I donate them? etc.

[ElizaG]

I would get it if the Mom were the un-schooling or student-led type of teaching style mama...but that's not the case.  She's bought workbooks and such in the past and that's her thing...it's just not happening anymore. 

This could describe our family, at times.  Some people call this "tidal homeschooling."   Personally, I'd call it "marginally acceptable."  But even though it didn't meet my standards, my children were doing as much self-directed and incidental learning as those in many families that consider themselves unschoolers.  

 

Does it matter that I don't identify with "unschooling" or "student-led learning" as an ideology? 

 

The impression I get from some posts is that a mother who makes a point of choosing to "unschool" is okay, but a mother who values formal schoolwork -- but slacks off on it for some reason -- is a danger to them.  Even if the net result for the children is perhaps about the same. 

 

This is making my brain hurt.  :huh:

[StartingOver]

I hate these threads too. I would not call if basic needs are being met, and they are in a loving home. Let it go. Try helping the kids, try talking to family or friends of this family.

 

But really, there are kids who are beaten, burned, sexually abused, starved, without basic needs met. They are the ones you need to save calling CPS for.

[Spy Car]

Education is not a basic need?

 

In America, in the 21st Century???

 

Bill

[hjffkj]

I understand that one can homeschool without going to a co-op. I know many that do. I base my assumptions on what the mother herself has told me (a lot of "Oh, I'm not sure yet what we're doing" half way through the year) and comments from the kids ("we haven't done "school" since the end of last year"). I would get it if the Mom were the un-schooling or student-led type of teaching style mama...but that's not the case. She's bought workbooks and such in the past and that's her thing...it's just not happening anymore. She's either feeling overwhelmed or just figures her kiddos will figure it out on her own b/c she did (her mom homeschooled her pretty much the same way).

What you describe here isn't education neglect. The beauty of homeschooling is you are not stuck to someone else's schedule. You say it is the middle of the school year but who's school year? I don't have a school year for my kids. We could go weeks without doing anything formal but they're still being read to, reading to themselves, playing math games, exploring outside, writing storie, learning to cook, etc. my kids wouldn't count any of that as school and I don't either but they are still learning the skills they need to learn at an age appropriate level. Labelling it as school is only required if you have to for state requirements.

[Ellie]

 It's just heartbreaking to see a parent not show much of a desire to actually educate their children.  

 

that's kind of a hard statement. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there.

[shage]

I do not think that CPS would have any jurisdiction in this situation in my low regulation state. There would need to be factors other than educational neglect even to get an investigation.

 

I am a mandated reporter, and I would not report this.

I have not read all the replies. I am in CA and am a mandated reporter as well. However, educational neglect does not fall under mandated reporting statutes in my state. Meaning, if I were to encounter this family in a professional setting, I could not break confidentiality in order to report.

 

I suppose a lay person or friend could call CPS, but it doesn't fall under the state CPS mandate unless there is other abuse or severe physical neglect.

 

People tend to think that law says xyz because it should, but that's not the case.

Edited May 24, 2016 by shage

[Jean in Newcastle]

I looked at a couple of different threads since the OP doesn't have a siggie with her kid's ages on them.  OP, I gather that your kids are 3rd and 5th at present?  (I think I saw a mention this month about them going into 4th and 6th. .. .) So your kids are elementary.  And this other family has at least one child who is elementary age?  All?  Most? 

 

The problem is lack of information.  Just as it is hard for us to give concrete advice when we don't know the facts of age etc., the OP too is hampered by not knowing all the facts.  OP, I think that it is good that you and your mutual friend are going to talk to this mom.  May I suggest that you start by asking a lot of questions?  As others have pointed out, more might be happening than you think.  Or perhaps less.  I know that I've vented before about "just not being able to get to school" but when I actually sat down and listed what we've done, we had actually covered an awful lot.  As someone else said eloquently, I think that we do need to support other homeschoolers and should urge each other to educate our kids, but if someone feels prejudged then it is most likely going to end up with resentment and defensiveness.  There have been a lot of assumptions in your posts and of course they might be correct, but usually life is a bit more nuanced than that.

 

 

 

 

[Hobbes]

She's either feeling overwhelmed or just figures her kiddos will figure it out on her own b/c she did (her mom homeschooled her pretty much the same way).

If the Mom was homeschooled in the same way and is a competent adult, she may have reason to have a relaxed approach and figure that it will work out.

[maize]

If the Mom was homeschooled in the same way and is a competent adult, she may have reason to have a relaxed approach and figure that it will work out.

 

This indeed.

 

I was homeschooled through second grade, or really not-schooled. My mom was a certified teacher who believed that formal education was not developmentally appropriate for young children. She thought starting school at age 8 was about right, so that was what we did.

 

Know what? It worked beautifully in my family. I loved those years at home, hours and hours of playing with siblings, drawing, copying flags from the encyclopedia, playing in mud, being read to, helping with the family business, mostly just being kids and learning the way kids naturally learn. Aside from some reading lessons and a little letter writing practice, there was nothing even vaguely resembling school. 

 

Every one of my siblings grew up to succeed in high school and college and beyond; all are highly functional and educated adults. So I felt quite comfortable taking a relaxed approach to early education for my own children. 

[Pen]

I am really torn and could use some advice.  I have known a family for several years now.  They are fellow homeschoolers and my DD and one of their girls have become the best of friends.  They have 5 kids total.  The dad works full time and the mom has always worked on and off part-time.  I'm really worried for these kids.  I don't doubt what so ever that the parents love their kids, however they do barely any IF any schooling at all.  I'm not talking about un-schooling or anything like that either.  I mean they do nothing even close to what would be considered anything like that either.  They used to be good about it and even attended our co-op one year, but then things really went downhill.  They aren't involved in anything other than extra-curricular stuff (karate, dance class).  I honestly think the mom just either doesn't want to or doesn't have time between juggling her job and family.  I don't know.  I worry especially for their youngest daughter who seems to have a learning disability.  The mom talked a couple years ago about putting her in public school to get her some help, (At the time, I thought Finally!, she's going to do something to help her daughter) but she never did and it's only gone done hill from there.  I am not the only family who's noticed this either.  Two other mutual friends of ours have both expressed the same concerns too.

 

I hate to consider calling CPS, part of me thinks it's none of my business.  But, then, we live in a REALLY lax state when it comes to homeschooling and there's no oversight what-so-ever and I do believe that children deserve the right to be educated.  Would love advice (even if it's flaming, believe me I get it.  I'm quite torn over this).   

 

 

Thank you everyone for your suggestions.  I have chatted with our other mutual friend and she is going to reach out to her.  I will as well when I encounter her next.  This is a totally real situation and yes, I am not the WTM forums, but not new to homeschooling.  I've just never really had time to be commenting on message boards.  I recently came here and joined b/c I was researching some curriculums.  

 

Some of you asked about how old the kids are...they are 12, 11, 11 (twins, one of which would probably be in special education class if in public school) and a 3 year old.  When the mom works, the kids are left home alone or their dad is home with them.

 

We are always reaching out and asking her to join in on activities.  In fact, she used to participate in our co-op.  But she's since stopped (a couple years ago) and doesn't participate in any other activities either (except for the dance/karate classes I mentioned).  The kids are able to read, so I do pray they are taking it upon themselves to learn on their own.  It's just heartbreaking to see a parent not show much of a desire to actually educate their children.  

 

 

 

I think you better call CPS right away! One of the kids seems to have vanished between your first post and the second one quoted. 

[lots of little ducklings]

No. No. No. This is not a CPS event. Don't even consider unleashing that monster.

 

:iagree:

 

How someone chooses to teach her children is not my business. As long as the children are healthy, then I'm going to butt out.

 

:iagree:

[Tsuga]

I think using the term "educational neglect" or "emotional neglect" obscures what is going on here.

 

There is sadly a wide range of educational opportunities available to children around the world. What is world class in one environment is considered nearly squalid in another. That is the sad truth of inequality and injustice in our world.

 

However, within nations there is usually less variation. Usually we have set expectations of what every single child has a right to. Rights are theoretical though and their enforcement is not always practiced perfectly across states, counties, cities, or even within districts especially when it comes to marginalized groups like the disabled, recent immigrants, poor people, people of color, whatever. But there ARE standards, there ARE expectations. In the US we do have benchmarks of "this is what it takes, at a bare minimum, to reach the educational level that is required to eventually get a professional education that would lead to a job". Like, to be able to basically support yourself and not be dependent on society.

 

When you fail to provide that to a kid--whether you are a homeschooling parent, a segregated school district, or a really mean headmaster that thinks that kids with disabilities just can't be educated--then you are breaking the law. Maybe you aren't violating the constitution but in most states kids have a LEGAL right to an education.

 

So "educational neglect" sounds soft but my concern is, are these parents possibly doing severe and permanent harm to their kids by failing to provide them with the sort of basic education that would enable them to eventually work their way to living a productive, self-sufficient life?

 

If not, then no, I would not call anyone. If so, like if we are talking 10 year olds who cannot read, etc. then I think that is a problem.

 

Now I get that it's not just homeschoolers who fail at that. The entire state of Washington is actually failing at that and it's really nauseating, appalling, makes me want to throw something at the wall type crazy-making. BUT!

 

Legally we have called out our legislature. There are legal actions being taken. It's not enough but it is happening. And by the way I personally would not be in the least bit upset to watch the legislators who are blocking educational funding hauled off to jail and that would most certainly be bad for their families! But whatever, they have a duty to the public and parents have duties to their children.

 

OP, I think you should talk to your friend. I found Chelli's post so encouraging as I didn't know what had happened there. I wouldn't call CPS. But I'd bring in the social circle and really seriously talk about what is going on educationally speaking.

 

Yes, remedial classes in community college are an option. Do you guys have any idea how much that costs the state? Those are not free! They are heavily subsidized and they also can run out of financial aid sooner by taking too much remediation. It's also humiliating, quite frankly, for someone who thought they were doing fine to suddenly realize they, an adult, a 17 or 18 year old, is actually in 2nd or 3rd grade math. I mean that is no small thing, frankly, and it should not be treated like it is. Some children will self-educate but some will not.

 

CPS is one thing, but taking action is another.

 

OP, I think you have to take action.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Tsuga

[Tsuga]

This indeed.

 

I was homeschooled through second grade, or really not-schooled. My mom was a certified teacher who believed that formal education was not developmentally appropriate for young children. She thought starting school at age 8 was about right, so that was what we did.

 

Know what? It worked beautifully in my family. I loved those years at home, hours and hours of playing with siblings, drawing, copying flags from the encyclopedia, playing in mud, being read to, helping with the family business, mostly just being kids and learning the way kids naturally learn. Aside from some reading lessons and a little letter writing practice, there was nothing even vaguely resembling school. 

 

Every one of my siblings grew up to succeed in high school and college and beyond; all are highly functional and educated adults. So I felt quite comfortable taking a relaxed approach to early education for my own children. 

 

Starting at eight is different than not starting, though.

 

[maize]

Starting at eight is different than not starting, though.

 

 

Oh I agree. I was just musing on how my own educational experience impacted what path I was comfortable taking with my children.

 

The OP indicated that what the mom in this case is doing is similar to what her parents did, so maybe she is comfortable with her own education and feels it will work for her children.

 

I don't know, I just found the bit of information about the mother interesting. She's a functional adult with a job; her kids are at a minimum able to read and are participating in extracurricular activities--it may be that there is in fact enough of an educational nature happening in that home that the kids will grow up to be functional, employable adults like their mother.

[Farrar]

People tend to think that law says xyz because it should, but that's not the case.

 

It is a law on the books here. The truancy officers would absolutely come and investigate it as well and would likely get the homeschool office involved. In other words, jurisdictions vary - here, it would be a thing that would likely be followed up on.

[shage]

It is a law on the books here. The truancy officers would absolutely come and investigate it as well and would likely get the homeschool office involved. In other words, jurisdictions vary - here, it would be a thing that would likely be followed up on.

This is an excellent point. Jurisdiction matters.

 

In the several states I have worked professionally, CPS doesn't have the authority to investigate either educational neglect or truancy as a stand alone complaint. Generally that goes to the truancy officer or law enforcement with CPS only pulled in if the situation is verified and then not rectified.

[shanezomom]

Maybe I'm tired tonight....but this seems to evolve into a discussion about the right to privacy in our homes, the rights of the kids and the rights of the parents. Does one family have the right to call the government to intervene in the private decisions of another family? I have a lot of thoughts spinning around in my head over this. If I make a decision not to vaccinate my kids, does a pro-vac friend have a right to call the authorities if she thinks I'm jeopardizing the health of my dc?  

[Ausmumof3]

I dealt with this exact conundrum a little over a year ago with a friend of mine.

 

Here is the thread I started about it if you want to take a few hours to read through it. It got long!!!

 

I'm happy to report that in January of this year the friend I started that thread about stopped all of her outside commitments to focus on her kids. I had a long, serious talk to her in October before her announcement when we were at a weekend church event together. I know that it was huge part in her decision because she told me so. All that to say, definitely talk to her and be brutally honest, but as kind as you can. I didn't mince words with my friend, but I wasn't rude or obnoxious either. Plus my friend knew I truly cared about her and her family. It worked out without any intervention from authorities and for that I'm thankful.

I am so happy to hear this, I've often wondered how that ended up working out.

[Tumbatoo]

I'm late to the discussion, but I think you need to just go talk to the mom directly since you're worried. She might get upset a bit, but I would so my rather someone do that than call CPS (which has actually happened before when I just had a baby with collic who cried a lot). Fortunately the officer could see there was nothing there, or it could have been worse!

 

I have a twelve year old too. I could easily do nothing with him and he'd still be fine. He reads and is on the computer or catching frogs, lizards, helping in the garden, etc enough to not be "uneducated."

[Janeway]

I would not. What is CPS going to do? Put the kids in foster care? Is that better than where they are now? 

 

Most states will not investigate a complaint about the home schooling. Some will, many won't. And what you see on the outside is not necessarily what is going on on the inside. I had a friend who I thought was doing nothing. Now her daughter just graduated Summa Cum Laude from college. She did do math growing up I guess, and read books, but nothing else. I know she had no outside activities and they did not belong to a church. I have seen those who called themselves unschoolers have kids go on to college and do very well. 

 

I would not report it. Abuse is what needs to be reported and this does not sound like abuse.

[luuknam]

I would not. What is CPS going to do? Put the kids in foster care? Is that better than where they are now?

 

Foster care would be very unlikely to be CPS's first step, since educational neglect isn't life-threatening or w/e. So, if CPS would do anything at all, it'd likely be more along the lines of telling the parents to actually do education (setting goals), encouraging public/private school as an option, and then check up on them once in a while, and only escalate things if nothing changes.

 

That said, if the kids can read, the situation is probably nowhere near dire enough to call CPS over. I'd probably call CPS if e.g. a 12yo with a seemingly normal IQ couldn't even sound out words like 'cat', and the parents are not even trying to teach or provide an educational environment at all.

 

If you call CPS and they actually do investigate the family, it's practically a guarantee that the parents are going to try to figure out who reported them. It might be obvious depending on what CPS says (no, they can't say who reported them, but if you know only certain people know certain details, then you know where CPS got their information). If they correctly guess/deduce it was you, your relationship will likely be ruined. If they wrongly assume someone else reported them, then their relationship with that person might be ruined. Or if they can't figure it out they might become more distrustful of everyone they know and less likely to reach out for help to any of their friends, including less likely to let their kids go on playdates with any of the kids' friends, etc (actually, they are likely to become more distrustful of anyone even if they do figure out who told CPS).

 

So, ime, the CPS people were fine and friendly and suggested some possible resources available in the community for my ASD kid, but I'm never ever going to mention my kids to any mental health professional ever again (thanks psychiatry-intern-who-reported-me).

[xixstar]

Maybe mom speaks in hyperbole at times or has funny definitions. I have commented many times that we "haven't done any school" or we "haven't even started yet" when it was February or March. Mostly I felt I was recovering from being overwhelmed with gradschool/internship and having a new baby but in hindsight it was just how it felt, like we hadn't done anything. And then I was putting my state-required portfolio together last week and realized just how much we had done. So I didnt work through our usual curriculum which I define as "school" but we had been supplementing with lots of other stuff. It didn't feel like we had been doing anything and I did lament that feeling to friends, but the evidence was a different story. So glad none of my friends called CPS on me during that time based on my comments.

[Butter]

Not even remotely a reason to call CPS.  Sounds more like a case of "your homeschool looks different from my homeschool so I don't think you are really homeschooling."  Unschooling is a thing even in families who have been structured in the past.

[...................]

Absolutely no CPS.  I've had friends who did almost nothing with their kids educationally except read and discuss stuff, and the kids are doing fine.  No one made it to university as a freshman, but, whatever.

 

I've had friends that did almost nothing and God moved and they finally had situations that forced their kids into a wonderful school and everyone is catching up.

 

I've also had friends that monitor every minute of their children's days, push them to practice piano and math for many many hours, and are too busy driving to the nearby city for constant interviews and music lessons, that their daughter can't even have even anything remotely like a normal childhood yet in the eyes of the world she is "educated."  Also depressed.

 

Be careful what you view as "education"  ...if these kids are happy and healthy enough that you even let your own daughter be "the best of friends" with them, then they must be doing pretty well.

 

CPS is a terrible thing to go through and most state systems are struggling and broken.  The mother would be under investigation, and I doubt anything but stress would come of it.  Then, if they did take the kids away, they would be split up and believe it or not there are a LOT of foster parents doing it for the wrong reasons.  

 

I mean, I agree with you that it stinks.  Obviously these kids have potential and it could possibly make their lives as grown ups harder, but really...it's not abuse. 

 

Now I would say you sjhould talk to the mom, especially in regards to the learning disabled child.  You should buy them educational videos, and toys, books, documentaries...you'll have to be honest with your friend because she'll see right through it, but honesty is a big factor in any relationship.

[...................]

Also, a lot of homeschoolers use humor as a way to deal with life..and a lot of homeschool kids try to make their day look like a dream of non stop fun, I know when my dd talks about it, she HATES the questioning and her little rebellious side kicks in and she says some pretty off the wall things.  She is essentially making fun of them....you can't blame her with the way people probe sometimes.  Add to that her dyslexia and her absolute LACK Of desire to PERFORM, EVER, for ANYONE and she could easily make it look like we are the worst homeschoolers ever.  

 

She is smart enough to understand where the line is drawn, usually, but it has happened once or twice where I've had to say "Look that's not funny.  People might really think we spend our days lounging on the couch, cooking yummy foods, and going to Trader Joe's"

[Jane Elliot]

I think you better call CPS right away! One of the kids seems to have vanished between your first post and the second one quoted. 

 

And now has the op vanished, too?

[rdj2027]

Lol, when someone asked my then 6th grade son what we do all day he said "I play Minecraft (read he took several of their writing classes, we also covered other areas), I play other games (that was his AOPS pre-algebra class, one of the tabs for Alcumus actually said "let's play"), we make explosives (we worked through the Illustrated Guide to Home Chemistry Experiments), we read stories (ancient history for which we read a lot of books including original source material in translation) I fight with my brother (they were both enrolled in Karate for PE), and I talk to my friends on Saturdays (he attended the German Saturday school so his talking was in a foreign language).

 

She did not look amused.

[mamiof5]

I would NEVER get involved unless I was asked for advice. The kids seem to be well taken care of. Whatever happens or doesn't happen, as far as school goes, is none of my business. I barely have time to try to figure out what works for my family, I don't have time to be judging what works, or doesn't work for others.

[momacacia]

My oldest complains soooooo much about allllll the schoolwork her mother gives her (fingerprinting included), I think we're safe from at least this scenario happening to us. I just smile and wave when she starts in on this. :)

[Pen]

And now has the op vanished, too?

 

 

Looks like it.

[luuknam]

Lol, when someone asked my then 6th grade son what we do all day he said "I play Minecraft (read he took several of their writing classes, we also covered other areas), I play other games (that was his AOPS pre-algebra class, one of the tabs for Alcumus actually said "let's play"), we make explosives (we worked through the Illustrated Guide to Home Chemistry Experiments), we read stories (ancient history for which we read a lot of books including original source material in translation) I fight with my brother (they were both enrolled in Karate for PE), and I talk to my friends on Saturdays (he attended the German Saturday school so his talking was in a foreign language).

 

She did not look amused.

 

My oldest mostly says "I don't know", when asked what he did that day/week/whatever. I've had to jump in a few times and list a few things when his (public school) OT has asked him, lol.

 

Which reminds me of the time during my first year in university when a dorm mate asked me what was on my final exam the next day. Me: "uh, it's cellular biology". Him: "okay, but what topics?". Me: "I don't know. Stuff to do with the biology of the cell". I got an A, fwiw. I'm just not good at answering open-ended questions like that.

[SKL]

Yeah, I ask my kids (who attend b&m) what they did at school, and often get a blank stare.  "What are you doing in math right now?"  "I don't know."  "We aren't doing any more reading or math for the rest of the year."  (They are working on a report that incorporates lots of learning areas.)