At what point do you give your kid ownership over his goals?

[SarahW]

I don't know if the title is right. I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I'm not sure what to look for to find it.

 

Crazypants' revelation yesterday that he wants to get a PhD (as I related in the "they said what?" thread) got me thinking....

 

Me having a kid who wants to study math and physics is still something of a shock to me. That's why I rather obsessively follow the math and science discussions here, and spend a lot of time trying to figure out what you all are talking about. The PhD thing I do sort of understand, at least the American system. I know that it's no picnic, at least. Not something you can do in a summer (I think he misunderstood something from DH's and I "finish your PhD" conversations).

 

At what point do you tell your kid, "hey, you have a great goal, I think you could really make it happen, and here's all the things you need to do between here and there?" Is it a good idea to even have that conversation? Does it depend on the kid? How much detail do you go into? I mean, everyone's path to and through higher studies is different, but there are general parameters and expectations. I can see those parameters and expectations, which is why continue to make him practice cursive, instruct him on how to write clear sentences, and encourage learning foreign languages. But I don't think he sees how those things tie together with eventually studying math or physics in a University, not like I do with the benefit of an adult perspective and hindsight anyways. But I don't know if laying it out for him will encourage or discourage him, or whether it would pressure him or motivate him. He is a kid who doesn't like doing things if he doesn't see "a purpose" for them, so I lean towards showing him some paths he could take and what is needed, but I don't know how much detail to go in to. Or if telling him the details would even make any sense to him - should I just say "I know what you need to do, so just trust me"?

 

Mostly though, I've realized that he's not a baby anymore who just thinks what I think. He has his own ideas, and planning to get a PhD. Ha! He's only 9, I'm not ready! argh.

 

It's funny, when I'm in Oxford or Cambridge I see Asian moms with Very Serious Expressions clutching a stack of pamphlets and towing their 5yo around and I feel a bit bemused. I don't want to be a tiger mom, but I sort of want to be a fly on the way (a fly who understands Chinese) to hear what they're saying to their kid at the end of the day.

[Luckymama]

It was easy with youngest because, by the time we began homeschooling when she was 10, she had watched her older siblings go through high school and begin to apply to college. She heard a lot of conversations about choices, how to not close any doors, and how to reach your goals.

 

Any long term reader of the high school board will know that dd has changed her focus several times over the years. She's a generalist who latches hard into a focus. Sometimes I felt like :eek: just as *I* was getting comfortable with a particular path!

 

I think you should lay out specifics for your ds, as in "you would need to study this, that,, and the other thing before going to university"----but emphasize the flexibility of homeschooling. A traditional student may not have choices of what to study in a particular year, but he could do X or Y or Z this year and something else the next.

 

Does that make sense?

[Dmmetler]

Honestly, if you get him into an academic environment, he'll learn by example. Going to conference sessions and meeting grad students and being involved in research quickly taught DD that a PhD involves a lot of hoop jumping and stress, and that you may not want to get on that treadmill too quickly, but that it also is a valuable goal. And at age 11, she's starting to consider options ranging from "get the PhD in herpetology as quickly as possible" to "double major in biology and math or CS, so I can do all that awesome analysis stuff" to "get a teaching certificate along with my Bio BS, just in case" to "Hmmm,,,what does it take to become a GIS specialist or statistician...". She's also recognizing just how wide the skill set needed can be, and how it encompasses public relations, communications, and lots more. And that bugs, invertebrates, and computer operating systems and AI are also really cool!

 

She knows she wants to help snakes, but the more she's exposed, the more she realizes that it's not a single path to the goal, but a combination of them.

 

So yes, dive in with both feet. Do the college campus stuff. Go to the workshops and speaker sessions in areas that interest him, whatever they are. Take him seriously. But also recognize that the goal setting, dreaming, and experimentation is part of growing up.

Edited May 23, 2016 by dmmetler

[EKS]

My older son was 9 when he decided that he wanted to go to MIT.  At that point he had just started reading well (he has dyslexia) and still could not write coherently.  

 

I see now that I should not have taken that goal as seriously as I did.

 

I felt as though as a homeschooling parent it was my job to ensure that *I* was not getting in the way of his goals, which was appropriate.  But it was very difficult for me to separate that from also ensuring the *he* was not getting in the way of his goals.  I should have just designed a solid college prep homeschooling program and had him take the lead on going above and beyond.  I see now that a person who is right for a place like MIT is going to forge his own path to get there.  

 

All of this is to say that I would focus on giving your son an excellent education.  If he really wants to get that PhD, he will find his own way there.

[SarahW]

I hear what you all are saying.

 

I guess I fell like - I've known for a while that he would more than likely go to college for math/engineering/physics/something. Fine. My understanding of any of those topics is small, but I can figure out a solid college prep trajectory for them, sure. I just didn't realize that Crazypants was ALSO thinking about "becoming an expert" and getting a PhD(?!).

 

I guess I shouldn't be surprised. We went and toured a nearby quantum computing lab with a PhD student and Dh and I did tell him "yeah, sometime when you're older you could do this too" (we got the tour specifically for him, so this wasn't an unexpected thing to say). But I guess I didn't think he would put all the parts together - physics, university, lab, PhD. I thought that'd be a few years off still.

 

I think I'm really nervous here because my parents were quite agnostic towards my educational goals, they were neither concerned that I had a good college prep education or talked about realistic expectations. Neither have Bachelor degrees, so I guess I can't really fault them for the former, and my family never really "talked" about anything, so it's not surprising the latter didn't happen. But I'm still left with no personal models for how to encourage a child's goal or how to have a good conversation about it. Help?

 

Mostly my struggle is getting him to understand that to be a successful "expert" he still needs to be broad. He'd happily spend all day coding, playing minecraft, reading some math and physics books, then jumping around the yard. Which is fine as far as it goes, he's 9. But I know that the best grad students often have more than just a single focus. There is the soft people skills. The interdisciplinary skills. The communication skills. And the thesis-building "no one has ever put those two ideas together before" skills (lol). Right now we're still in the "we do subjects you don't like because I say so" mode. I guess I'm just wondering if it is advisable or recommended to switch to "whether you like these subjects or not, you need to gain a certain threshold of competency in them if you want to achieve your stated goal." Is that something 9yo can understand? Or grow into understanding?

[The Governess]

With dd11, the academic options are still wide open. I just have her work at her ability and we do the next thing. Right now her academic goals are short term; she hasn't latched onto any particular potential career, and I think that is fine. Her strengths are in math and foreign language so I can see her eventually leaning in one of those directions, but she has a long time to decide and her interests may change/other strengths may become more apparent as she gets older.

 

She is also a serious ballet student, and here I do help her set goals. So do her instructors. There are goals for improving technique, goals for auditioning and being accepted into summer programs, goals for advancing levels, goals for performance parts, long-term goals of getting into a year-round training program or company... BUT, I believe that the most important thing for a young dancer with lots of potential (and really, this can be applied to many different demanding pursuits) is to not burn her out or overwhelm her. No one can become a professional at anything if they burn out and quit early. The goal of finding joy in what she does is always the number one priority. Without that joy, the hard work is tedious, and long-term goals are meaningless.

[wintermom]

I think it's great to think and dream of far ahead plans. Planting the seed in one's mind is really the first step, then there are all the small and big steps that will actually get one to the dream. Somewhere along those steps, the dream can be altered, refined, or even changed completely, but by then one is already moving - and those first steps are the toughest. 

 

You may want to write down a step-by-step process a person does in order to achieve a PhD in one particular field. Perhaps do a parallel pathway for a similar field, and see where they two could be "linked" so that starting off on one pathway allows one to transfer to another along the way. Then you could add on additional branches to other pathways. Try to link the degrees (Bachelor, Masters, PhD) to possible jobs in the field, so that you may see where the number of jobs starts to decrease or become much more limited in nature, and where things open up to more possibilities.

 

One thing I learned on the path to my Masters, is that going that last step to getting a PhD actually reduced the number of jobs I wanted to do in my field. After getting my Masters I decided to get a different bachelor degree that was much more helpful in opening doors to careers I was interested in. In my dh's field, his PhD opened up many more career opportunities that he was interested in. 

[Arcadia]

My hubby decided to apply for a PhD scholarship when he was 29 and got it. He was aware of the possibility of PhD while he was in high school but academia does not pay as well and is more bureaucratic than the private sector. My hubby's ex-classmates in academia are getting annual pay before tax of around $130k in a high COL area and they are looking at jumping to private sector if possible. My in-laws stopped at 10th (GCSE) and 12th grade (GCE 'A').

 

None of my boys have asked about PhD, but people with PhDs working in the private sector are common where I am. They have been to research labs open houses and so far are not into research or teaching. The job prospects aren't enticing.

 

My oldest asked about being an astronaut before K and I just show him what NASA recommended. He knows the odds are very very low but meeting the minimum for NASA would satisfy many jobs prereqs.

 

Then he decided he wanted to be a business owner so I gave him an overview since most of my cousins are small business owners. Over the years he has asked more details. I told him accounting and law are useful as electives in high school for small business owners or freelancers.

 

After we started touring new homes because we wanted to get a bigger place, he decided that he has an interest in architecture but he wants to design what he likes, not what clients want. So he is thinking of property developer if he strike lottery or freelance architect as a sideline.

 

As for what chinese parents tell their 5 year old kids during college tour, parents tend to tell kids that it is a famous college, older kids go there, it is hard to get in. Considering how hard it is to get in to a prestigious preschool in Asia, kids as young as 5 probably has an idea of difficulty of entry.

 

The part about "There is the soft people skills. The interdisciplinary skills. The communication skills.", was taught from the cradle in both hubby and my side of the family as life skills. For our kids, it is exposure and guiding. We bring them to many free group classes at many places where they have to get along with kids that they have never met and ask for help from the instructor and aides. At a younger age, we teach them who and how to ask for help, and how to share equipment so everyone can get their tasks done. They quickly figured out who are the enthusiastic/reponsible lab partners and who are the ones who just wait and see. They also figured which aide is the most willing to help.

 

For thesis writing, hubby and I didn't have to worry until the summer before our final year of bachelors. So after we finished the 3rd year of BEng. We were in the system which awards 1st class honours, 2nd upper, 2nd lower and so on for BEng. A 2nd upper or a 1st class honours degree would qualify for entry to MEng or direct PhD (Eng) for my alma mater. For math and science degrees (BSc), the degree track was 3 years, honors degree was an extra year and need teacher recommendations. MSc and PhD comes after and duration depends on the project supervisor because the academic modules can be cleared fast with summer term grad classes.

[Dmmetler]

On the soft skills thing, the thing that has shown DD that it's not all about the snakes is, again, getting out and doing it. I could tell her all day long that public speaking, communicating well in writing, and being able to get along with others even when you hold opposing viewpoints is essential to success-but when she sees people she respects using those soft skills and hears THEM tell her that, honestly, being an excellent writer is more important than knowing scientific names of reptiles, and being a stickler for terminology doesn't actually win friends or influence people, she starts to believe it.

 

Similarly, the greatest encouragement she's gotten towards being less a specialist and more a generalist has come from those in the field.

[Donna]

I am kind of in the opposite situation for you…I was a math/science girl and my dd is into arts/humanities. I was discussing with another board member recently that I was having to completely let go of my traditional notions of what high school should look like with her because she is on a different path and has certain goals in mind. I feel like I will do best by helping dd know what skills/prerequisites she needs to meet her own goals and being there to listen when she wants to talk but mostly to stay out of her way because I think she will find her own path in ways I could not even imagine.

 

It might depend on the child's personality but I think it is important to discuss their goals and what it takes to meet them. I think you could work up to giving him ownership of his goals. Maybe start with something he wants to accomplish in the next week, month, or 6 months and have him practice thinking about how to plan steps to achieve something more long term. When they are young, their long term/life goals can change so many different times as they gain knowledge and develop. I think requiring a well-rounded grammar/middle school education as his parent is perfectly fine.

 

I started giving dd ownership of her goals when she was very young. At first her goals were small…to learn a certain piece on violin, to play her best in a certain competition, or to write a chapter book…so we would discuss her goals and the steps needed to get there. Together we broke down the steps into easily accomplished, daily steps. Having that practice helped dd learn how to take those steps on her own which is really cool to watch now.

 

High school starts next year and dd has larger goals...ideas on where she might want to go to college, what she might like to study, and what she wants to do with her life when she graduates. She still doesn't have one definite path in mind but we have looked into requirements for acceptance to some of the schools she is interested in and come up with a four year plan (in pencil) to keep her options open for each idea she has. I can help her research choices, help her chose high school curriculum, be aware of timelines, find her tutors for subjects I can't do bets, and make sure she meets the requirements for acceptance to college. As far as taking the actual steps…studying, doing well on tests, practicing and progressing with her music, etc… it is all on her.

[MinivanMom]

I try to talk with my kids about what their goals and dreams are. I find this happens naturally, but I do try to have a formal-type conversation at the end of each school year when I am planning for the next school year. Some years I've actually had the older kids write down their goals with the steps they're going to take now in order to reach those goals. I'm mostly trying to guide them toward thinking through the steps that will lead to their "dream".

 

The other thing I do is to point out people who have accomplished those things, whether we know them in real life or they are someone famous, and I tell my kids about how they reached that point professionally. "Did you Lana's mom just published a book? She got a degree in English, and I know she sets aside several hours everyday to write. She was telling me that when she was a kid, she filled up more than 50 journals. Can you imagine filling 50 journals? She must have spent a lot of time writing." I find it really helps to connect those dots for my kids and to emphasize the time and work that goes into becoming a professional.

 

At the end of the day, though, these are my kids' goals not mine. I can talk with them and guide them a bit and try to provide opportunities, but they are the ones who have to choose to pursue it and work at it. They have to figure out whether it's really a passion.

Edited May 24, 2016 by MinivanMom

[daijobu]

Is this your 9 year old who wants to get a PhD?  If so, all you need to do now is make sure he has a solid understanding of math, and to cultivate his interest in the sciences.  Even if he changes his mind, his math skills will serve him sell.    

 

I think he's too young to have ownership (at least my kids were at that age), but then, they weren't asking to be PhDs either.  Good luck!  

[Eagle]

I think I'm really nervous here because my parents were quite agnostic towards my educational goals, they were neither concerned that I had a good college prep education or talked about realistic expectations.

The "realistic expectations" that I am providing for my dc is that they can do anything. It will take a lot of work, sometimes some luck, and also perseverance and tenacity. I also let them know that others may try to talk them out of their goals, but it is still their choice (and their own path) to pursue those goals or not, regardless of what others think.

 

Goals can change over time, so I wouldn't get super focused on one goal of his at the moment and plan a multi-year trajectory. Next week he may decide to be an astronaut. Next year he may be interested in architecture. Definitely support any interests and help him learn more about topics of his choice. Explain what a PhD is and that there are many steps along the way. Each step is a goal to achieve and an accomplishment to celebrate, but each step is also a point to reevaluate if the overall path needs to change based on his current interests and passions.

 

I used to work at a university helping engineering students find jobs. I always spoke at length with my students to help them set an overall goal, not just "find a job that pays rent". What did they *really* want to do? Then I told them it was possible. That we could work together to figure out what steps would help them achieve that goal. One of the other career advisors always crushed the dreams of her students. If someone was interested in automotive design, she told them that was unrealistic because the senior engineers do those jobs and the best they could hope for was to design the door handle. We had many discussions about this because I was so frustrated that she would squash the dreams of these kids before they even had a chance to really decide what they wanted to do with their life; she was frustrated that I was not being realistic with what they could achieve. The results? Her students worked for car manufacturers designing components of the car that aren't seen (and other similar jobs). I had a student write documentation that is used on the International Space Station, one that got her pilot's licence during her first job at an aircraft hangar, and one who trained for the Olympics while working an engineering job that let him have very flexible hours (and he did compete in the Olympics!). These were goals these kids set for themselves, and they were "dream big" goals for them (and these are just a few examples of many). These were their stepping stones to even bigger career aspirations, but they were excellent first-steps on the way there.

 

I really think having someone who believes in your dreams is a very powerful motivator in helping you achieve your goals. As Mom, you can be that person who always believed right from the beginning. Tell him he can do it (not by the end of summer though) and that he will be a great PhD expert one day with hard work.

[AEC]

There's a balance here, I think, between encouraging dreaming big and avoiding future self-flagilation because 'you failed' when you really didn't.

 

DD has declared since she was 10ish that she wants to swim in college and also study CompSci...or maybe math.  I'm taking both goals seriously, but also trying to guide her not to get her heart set on infeasible things.  Let's not have her spend 8 years thinking Cal is her dream school, only to be crushed because she's not a top-20 nationally ranked swimmer and hence won't make the Cal team. (not to mention that swimming at Cal and studying engineering is, at best, ill-advised).  She wants to do both things well, but realistically I know she's not willing to put in the amount of sacrafice - every month for the next 8 years - required to swim on a top-5 D1 swim team and I'm not sure she should.  So...I support the dream while pointing out how excellent it would be to swim for, say, HarveyMudd or USDC or someplace w/ a good CompSci dept and a solid D2 or D3 team.

 

So...yes to taking seriously and exposure.  But driven kids can also have a tendency to be unnecessarially hard on themselves and I don't think that's helpful, either.

[SarahW]

Is this your 9 year old who wants to get a PhD?  If so, all you need to do now is make sure he has a solid understanding of math, and to cultivate his interest in the sciences.  Even if he changes his mind, his math skills will serve him sell.    

 

I think he's too young to have ownership (at least my kids were at that age), but then, they weren't asking to be PhDs either.  Good luck!  

 

Yes, the 9yo. I think he confused "becoming an expert" and "PhD" somehow. I should unconfuse him on the PhD part, but don't want t discourage the becoming an expert part.

 

I think I should lay out the whole high school then college then grad school then PhD scenario to him. But in how much detail? "These are some possible paths for math" or 4/4/4/4? Talk about tests or competitions? Just leave it all very vague?

 

I don't want him to think of education as ticking boxes, but he's the type who needs to see the whole picture to see how important the the little parts of it are. I feel like he's all over the place and also whittling himself down into a box, and I wonder if seeing a real-life possible progression of education would help give him some direction.

 

I don't know if I'm making any sense. I'm figuring it out as I type. Sorry.

[daijobu]

Yes, the 9yo. I think he confused "becoming an expert" and "PhD" somehow. I should unconfuse him on the PhD part, but don't want t discourage the becoming an expert part.

 

I think I should lay out the whole high school then college then grad school then PhD scenario to him. But in how much detail? "These are some possible paths for math" or 4/4/4/4? Talk about tests or competitions? Just leave it all very vague?

 

I don't want him to think of education as ticking boxes, but he's the type who needs to see the whole picture to see how important the the little parts of it are. I feel like he's all over the place and also whittling himself down into a box, and I wonder if seeing a real-life possible progression of education would help give him some direction.

 

I don't know if I'm making any sense. I'm figuring it out as I type. Sorry.

 

No it makes sense.  It's hard for us since we haven't met your son personally.  You know him best and what sort of information he really wants.  On the one hand, it's not like the path to a PhD is some state secret, like sex or something.  (lol!)  How would he react if you told him all the nitty gritty details?  Does he really want to know, or is he just thinking out loud, and just expecting you to say something along the lines of, "PhD?  Sounds great to me!"  <-- I would err on that side, general encouragement, just because he is so young.  As he gets older and demonstrates greater commitment to a certain field, you can talk about goals, particularly if he seems to be on the wrong track.  

 

BTW, it depends on the field, but generally in the sciences, one would go straight from undergrad to a PhD program if that's your intention.  (This may be different in the liberal arts.)  And some fields (not all) will require at least one, and sometimes several post-doctoral fellowships if one intends to be an academic, which can have a significant impact on one's young adult life.  But no need to burden him with all this info now.  Who knows what will happen in 10-15 years?

[EndOfOrdinary]

He is old enough that he can figure out what is needed. At 9 Ds set up college tours of a local Top 20 school. He wantd to go, so he set up a tour. I sort of smiled at it. This desire has not waned in two years. He is actively taking AP classes next year becuase he really means it.

 

You don't get to do anything. If he wants it, then he will do it. Your job is to just not get in the way.

[quark]

 

I think I should lay out the whole high school then college then grad school then PhD scenario to him. But in how much detail? "These are some possible paths for math" or 4/4/4/4? Talk about tests or competitions? Just leave it all very vague?

 

I don't want him to think of education as ticking boxes, but he's the type who needs to see the whole picture to see how important the the little parts of it are. I feel like he's all over the place and also whittling himself down into a box, and I wonder if seeing a real-life possible progression of education would help give him some direction.

 

I don't know if I'm making any sense. I'm figuring it out as I type. Sorry.

 

I don't know your son but mine immediately deflated like a balloon when I started laying out the 4x4 plan. Mine is driven but not extrovertedly so if that makes sense. His drive comes from doing interesting things, not reaching specific goals like PhDs (where learning doesn't stop anyway).

 

I gave mine ownership very young. He got to say yes or no and when he said no we did talk about certain reasons why that particular step was important (or not). Sometimes he agreed to try sometimes not. And sometimes I realized he was right, he didn't have to take that specific step just yet, he could wait. Or over the course of a few months, that step/thing/milestone resolved by itself.

 

I don't see ownership as those specific results like wanting to get a PhD. I see it as the ability to forge ahead and do your thing and being able to rise from mistakes or bad grades and keep moving forward. In that way, I'd say pretty young worked well here.

 

Yeah these kind of things are hard to explain with the type of mercurial enthusiasm/ or sudden deflation/ followed by burst of go-go-go energy that these kids have...you are making perfect sense! :grouphug:

 

ETA: I haven't read pp's in detail. Might also be good to differentiate between educational goals and personal resilience type goals. Some things would need to be done regardless of what he wants to eventually achieve. Some things can be done in a very fun, exploratory way. I would totally get him interested in biographies of people he admires. More than researching all the educational hoops he has to jump through, have him read/ learn/ watch documentaries about people who already did that or did it another way and did it well/ creatively/ out of the box. Good luck!

 

Edited May 24, 2016 by quark

[daijobu]

I think I may have been misleading in a previous post.  I want to emphasize that there are many paths to a PhD.  One can even work in industry for a couple of years before returning to school for a doctorate.  So I see no point in providing a specific plan of action except to make sure he is well educated and prepared academically with rigorous coursework.  

[mathnerd]

The goals that he has are adult goals that he needs to pursue as an adult. You cannot do anything about those goals at this time. You can educate him well, make sure that he has a great childhood and when the time comes to launch him into the real world, he should have all the correct tools and skill sets so that he can pursue a PhD or any other goal comfortably. There is truth to all the hype about the "well rounded" child - when it comes to pursuing a career or getting advanced degrees, it is important to be able to write well, write clearly, speak concisely, summarize elaborate amount of information, use critical thinking and logic and be able to communicate with people who might not know english. For e.g. I learned Japanese in my 20's in a STEM career because at that point, there was as much Japanese as English used in my workplace and it seemed that learning that language might speed up my communication.

 

You can let him watch physics and math documentaries, get him great courses lectures, enroll him in a math circle, build hands on projects like roller coasters and simple machines, get him a robotics kit to work on etc. You will be providing him with time and material to develop some deep thinking in his areas of interest. Also please consider teaching him a programming language (or two!) starting now, because, in my opinion, it is an invaluable tool in the STEM field.

 

There is a "purpose" to writing cursive, learning languages and learning a musical instrument that one might never play as an adult. Steve Jobs credits his calligraphy classes in Reed college for being able to think like an artist and design elegant products - let your son read this Smithsonian article so that he can see that there was a great purpose to a calligraphy class that one person took at some point that helped change computer typography - http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/a-tribute-to-a-great-artist-steve-jobs-99783256/

It is hard to predict the purpose of everything that we learn - especially to a child. But, assure him that he needs to be well rounded in order to succeed in life (said by a person who lives in an environment full of single dimensional people).

Edited May 24, 2016 by mathnerd

[bakpak]

In some ways, 'getting a PhD' is not much different from a young child saying they want to become a 'medical doctor'. Both are somewhat abstract ideas to most 9-year-olds, and many adults. I would say your job is to help him gain a great education through high school and prepare him to do well in college. An MS, PhD, or MD occurs after college, and that's all on him, it is not something you can/should invest your time thinking about too much right now. There are so many paths and timelines to obtaining a Ph.D., and it's both impractical and impossible for you to concern yourself with those details trying to imagine how you'd make that happen. Those are life decisions he'll have to make as an adult, and by then he'll have a network of professors/professionals to help guide him in taking those next steps.

 

In the meantime, it is fantastic to encourage him to want to be an expert in a field, and for some people that means getting a Ph.D. You could have fun trying to see what types of careers you could have with a Ph.D. in field X. I really wouldn't get hung up on this big unfathomable goal that your son innocently posed. It sounds like you're meeting his needs well, reaching out for novel experiences and encouraging him to dream big. I would encourage the dreaming without getting too hung up on the specifics, if that makes sense. Sounds like he's already on a great path to making that happen; the specifics will all work themselves out down the road in about 15+ years :)

[SarahW]

Lots of great advice here. Thanks!

 

When I have Crazypants do subjects he wouldn't choose for himself (like history, big personal boo) I suspect he is just humoring me to get through it. But it's getting more frequent for him to ask "why do I have to do this anyways?" I tell him it's good for him, like taking his fish oil. But I don't know how much longer that will last. It'd be easier if he knew what I knew about what it takes to get good scores on the GRE, lol.

 

Somehow he has self-identified as a "nerd" and is proud of it. Which I think is fantastic. But he seems to be also rejecting not-nerd things already. That's what I meant by whittling down. Just the other day DH and CP got into a long conversation based on CP stating (again) that he hates reading story books, they're dumb, so why does we keep telling him to read them anyways? DH reminded him of the Einstein bio he had read "How did Einstein think of his ideas? Did he write out all the steps first? No, he imagined them. He had creativity, and that helped him think. Story books help you think of things." That explanation seems to have worked a bit.

 

I've been trying to get him out to meet math/science people, but so far there hasn't been anything in-depth. I'm tempted to just tell him "You know that awesome mathematician we saw the other day? When she was in school she probably had to read a big story book that was written before computers were even invented. And she probably knocked through it and wrote an awesome essay about it like a boss." But I don't know if he'll believe me. If he does, he'll probably feel sorry for her, having such mean teachers.

 

Hm, it seems like I'm looking for a way to prove to him (since he likes to have proof for everything) that "becoming an expert" means adding more, not subtracting things from his life. And that I know what I'm saying when I tell him that he needs to know things would be nice too....

 

It seems that the time of conversations is upon me. This morning he asked me what that A..D...H...D thing was. Evaluation day is tomorrow, but I don't know what will come if it since we're moving again very soon. We'll be moving back near his not-girlfriend, but hopefully that conversation won't happen for a while still, lol.

 

I'll probably be MIA for a bit because of the move. But sometime in there I'll try to talk to CP about his goals. After all this handwringing, when I bring it up he'll probably just be like "oh, that, whatever." Grrrr....kids!

[dauphin]

My older son was 9 when he decided that he wanted to go to MIT. At that point he had just started reading well (he has dyslexia) and still could not write coherently.

 

I see now that I should not have taken that goal as seriously as I did.

 

I felt as though as a homeschooling parent it was my job to ensure that *I* was not getting in the way of his goals, which was appropriate. But it was very difficult for me to separate that from also ensuring the *he* was not getting in the way of his goals. I should have just designed a solid college prep homeschooling program and had him take the lead on going above and beyond. I see now that a person who is right for a place like MIT is going to forge his own path to get there.

 

All of this is to say that I would focus on giving your son an excellent education. If he really wants to get that PhD, he will find his own way there.

After pulling DD to homeschool in 4th grade to ensure that school wasn't getting in the way, and now planning on sending her back to school next year in 8th, to receive an excellent education, I have to agree. I probably could have written this, and this is advice I would give to myself back then, if I could....

[mathnerd]

My older son was 9 when he decided that he wanted to go to MIT.  At that point he had just started reading well (he has dyslexia) and still could not write coherently.  

 

I see now that I should not have taken that goal as seriously as I did.

 

I felt as though as a homeschooling parent it was my job to ensure that *I* was not getting in the way of his goals, which was appropriate.  But it was very difficult for me to separate that from also ensuring the *he* was not getting in the way of his goals.  I should have just designed a solid college prep homeschooling program and had him take the lead on going above and beyond.  I see now that a person who is right for a place like MIT is going to forge his own path to get there.  

 

All of this is to say that I would focus on giving your son an excellent education.  If he really wants to get that PhD, he will find his own way there.

I too wanted to comment on this post - there is so much wisdom in this post - things that I knew already but could not articulate well enough.

[lewelma]

I have not read this entire thread, but I will mention that I have found my older boy easily led.  When I started talking about going to University in Australia, he was like 'great.' Then, when I said, well NZ universities could be a good option too, he was like 'great.' I think that sometimes it is just very hard for kids who don't know so much about the adult world to have an educated opinion. And it is very hard for well-meaning parents not to try to help out.  You can walk them through the pros and cons, but it takes judgement to understand how to weigh them, and this is where I end up guiding ds.  And my guidance somehow turns into gospel.  End the end, I decided to simply quit talking about those bigger goals. Just not bring them up. Yes, we had to make some serious decisions about early graduation or not, and creating an acceptable transcript in multiple countries or not, but now that we have nutted out those bigger details, I'm waiting until ds is 17 before helping him make any more choices.  I just think that some maturity is required to yield the judgement he needs to make these choices.

 

Ruth in NZ

[Alte Veste Academy]

I was asking the same questions a few years ago. My oldest is now 13 and seems to have picked a good general path. It is very likely that he will go into science/math/tech...STEM. 

 

You know the thing that has helped him more than anything? Looking at possibilities. Not one possibility, but many possibilities. It started a few years ago when someone here posted LEGO job postings. Well, DS had always wanted to work at LEGO. Of course! So I called him over to the computer and he looked at all the REAL jobs, not the imaginary jobs he created in his head. We clicked on them and looked at what the people actually did every day, which sounded most like the jobs he would like, and then looked at the requirements for those jobs. Then we looked at some college sites for the requirements for each major, then at the individual classes, noting prerequisites, and we worked backwards to his grade at the time. It was eye opening. This was a kid who needs it all laid out for him.

 

He no longer says he wants to work for LEGO. Right now he says he wants to double major in Forensic Science and Computer Science with a minor in Toxicology. So we looked up those requirements and what schools might offer those things and, again, worked backward to where he is now. He needs this. He and I both know that he might change is mind, is more likely to change his mind than not, but the odds of him changing his mind from STEM to humanities is about .01%, LOL, so he's made some decisions for 8th grade and high school based on his future STEM focus. 

 

My DD is such a very different child, but she still found all this fascinating. We did the same thing for her, but with more types of majors. What if she wanted to do Studio Art? Would she want to get a teaching certificate? What if she wanted to do Animation? Web Design? Graphic Design? Illustration and children's book writing? Landscape design? Architecture? Every time, we look for jobs, majors, schools, degree plans, individual courses, backward.

 

This has led to a discussion of high school requirements in very real terms. Would having good AP scores free up coursework to allow a double major in college? Would CLEP do the same? What about dual enrollment? What about doing a certificate program in something related to what you want to study in college give you a leg up and maybe let you have a higher paying part-time job while in college? Would they like to do AP courses or create their own personalized coursework? For their favorite focus subjects or for the subjects they don't love as much but have to do anyway? DS13 recently decided to start AP classes in 8th grade, for the subjects he is most interested in. For now, he wants to continue on that path in high school, with interest led, handpicked content in other subjects like English and history. 

 

Each of the kids will still have a broad education. I won't let a kid specialize him/herself into a trap. LOL But this process has been fabulous for giving them a series of clear pictures of what high school and college could look like. My kids enjoy that.

 

I think my guidance is too loosey-goosey to turn into gospel. LOL Lucky for my kids!

 

 

Edited May 26, 2016 by Alte Veste Academy

[EndOfOrdinary]

What Alte describes is much of what Ds and I have done as well. He has a list of top five and top three colleges he wants to attend. This is after looking at a whole big giant swath of schools. Tours are being scheduled into vacations so he can be sure, but relatively local ones we have already visited. We have done the price calculators for each school talked about scholarships, looked into National Merit, discussed test scores, gone through multiple scenerios of meeting the criteria. Each school has extremely similar criteria, but the ways to meet those criteria have a few different routes.

 

He is a humanities kid with alomst no interest in STEM. His interest is in travel, international politics, or public policy work. The basic gist of his desires has not changed since he was like 6, though how they play out as a career title has. He spends time every once in a while googling majors, reading up on famous people, and asking his current mentors about their college choices. All of them have basically told him the same thing: pick a school that feels good, study what you love, work hard at what you do, and a career will find you.

 

ETA: I think it is really important that you encourage stable, deep learning which is enjoyable. Large life goals are all well and good, but so much is up to chance that there is no way to know what will pan out. If too much is changed and put into place from a young age, you are staking both childhood and identity on extremely shaky ground.

Edited May 26, 2016 by EndOfOrdinary

[regentrude]

I do not really understand the question. I educate my children so that they are prepared for these kinds of goals - irrespective of whether they atually wish to pursue them or not. I would carry on as usual, unless the child specifically asks about specific course sequences or expresses a desire to study a particular subject at a level beyond what I require.

I do not understand what it could mean to give a 9 y/o "ownership" of a postsecondary educational goal. It is my responsibility as a parent to make sure our educational path is such that these, and many other, doors remain open.

 

ETA: If you have a kid who balks at undesired subjects but is motivated by long term goals, start backwards from the admissions requirements of top universities and show him what all will be required. Being an "expert" and having a broad well rounded education are not mutually exclusive; on the contrary: if he wishes to specialize in a  STEM area in college and grad school, one can ague that his school education in the humanities must be especially strong since he won't take many courses in these areas in college.

 

It also helps to surround a child with role models of adults who have a broad education. My kids grew up around my friends and colleagues, experiencing people with physics doctorates who can discuss literature and history in depth or speak multiple languages. They have grown up with our ideas of what it means to be an educated person, and it is something we frequently discuss.

 

 

Edited May 26, 2016 by regentrude

[SarahW]

I was asking the same questions a few years ago. My oldest is now 13 and seems to have picked a good general path. It is very likely that he will go into science/math/tech...STEM. 

 

You know the thing that has helped him more than anything? Looking at possibilities. Not one possibility, but many possibilities. It started a few years ago when someone here posted LEGO job postings. Well, DS had always wanted to work at LEGO. Of course! So I called him over to the computer and he looked at all the REAL jobs, not the imaginary jobs he created in his head. We clicked on them and looked at what the people actually did every day, which sounded most like the jobs he would like, and then looked at the requirements for those jobs. Then we looked at some college sites for the requirements for each major, then at the individual classes, noting prerequisites, and we worked backwards to his grade at the time. It was eye opening. This was a kid who needs it all laid out for him.

 

He no longer says he wants to work for LEGO. Right now he says he wants to double major in Forensic Science and Computer Science with a minor in Toxicology. So we looked up those requirements and what schools might offer those things and, again, worked backward to where he is now. He needs this. He and I both know that he might change is mind, is more likely to change his mind than not, but the odds of him changing his mind from STEM to humanities is about .01%, LOL, so he's made some decisions for 8th grade and high school based on his future STEM focus. 

 

My DD is such a very different child, but she still found all this fascinating. We did the same thing for her, but with more types of majors. What if she wanted to do Studio Art? Would she want to get a teaching certificate? What if she wanted to do Animation? Web Design? Graphic Design? Illustration and children's book writing? Landscape design? Architecture? Every time, we look for jobs, majors, schools, degree plans, individual courses, backward.

 

This has led to a discussion of high school requirements in very real terms. Would having good AP scores free up coursework to allow a double major in college? Would CLEP do the same? What about dual enrollment? What about doing a certificate program in something related to what you want to study in college give you a leg up and maybe let you have a higher paying part-time job while in college? Would they like to do AP courses or create their own personalized coursework? For their favorite focus subjects or for the subjects they don't love as much but have to do anyway? DS13 recently decided to start AP classes in 8th grade, for the subjects he is most interested in. For now, he wants to continue on that path in high school, with interest led, handpicked content in other subjects like English and history. 

 

Each of the kids will still have a broad education. I won't let a kid specialize him/herself into a trap. LOL But this process has been fabulous for giving them a series of clear pictures of what high school and college could look like. My kids enjoy that.

 

I think my guidance is too loosey-goosey to turn into gospel. LOL Lucky for my kids!

 

 

Very briefly and hopefully coherently (so tired, I hate moving so much).

 

What you describe is sort of what I did for myself. When I was in 8th grade or so I saw a college course catalog and a major which I fell in love with, and worked out a plan for me to get it. I got it, but in retrospect I could have done so many things better, and that would have really helped me achieve my postgrad goals. But I was figuring it all out on my own, and there was zero support or advice. My older brother was signing up for DE, so I tagged along and figured out exactly which classes would transfer me out of the Ged Ed requirements at my goal college. I pretty much skipped over high school to do it, which I thought was very clever. But it also meant that I never once took a physics or chemistry class (not college, not high school, not even middle school), for example. It wasn't that I was terribly advanced (as I said in a different thread recently, I was not really schooled from 3-8th grade) or even super intelligent. I just got fixated on my goal, and I wasn't interested in things outside it. I was so uninformed that it wasn't until I was in college and professors told me that a job in my area of study would involve getting graduate degrees that I realized that the goal I had been working for all those years wasn't actually the amazing thing I had thought it was.

 

So I know from personal experience the bad way to achieve a good academic goal, lol. I read a ton of threads here and educational books to learn what would be a good way to achieve good academic goals. I'm really not sure how to communicate that though.

 

On the one hand, setting my goals, laying it all out, and then doing it, gave me a lot of personal motivation. Without that personal motivation, I wouldn't have even bothered to find out how to sign up for the ACT (my mom did drive me there, and wasn't very late picking me up, so she wasn't completely uninvolved). So I see all the pros of this method. I also see the con of narrowing down the focus and missing the bigger picture.

 

DS is definitely the type who comes up with grand ideas, but doesn't see the incremental steps that will lead to them or a lot of discipline in carrying them out if he does. DH is the same way ( :banghead: ). They have EF issues. Anything they do has to have a "purpose" and that is very important, even if the purpose is just because they think it has a purpose. So when he made the PhD comment I was surprised, but also a bit exasperated. He doesn't know what a PhD entails, which is to be expected of course, but it is annoying when it comes in the midst of him complaining about having to write two full sentences! 

 

Working backwards might be a good way to talk to him about educational paths and expectations. Just have to think of a good way of putting it so that he's informed about education and how to become an expert, but not scare him off completely!

[Alte Veste Academy]

So I see all the pros of this method. I also see the con of narrowing down the focus and missing the bigger picture.

But you don't have to narrow the focus, really. You are just going to inform about one path, not adjust his next 9 years of learning based entirely upon that specific path. That is what your experience will help you avoid. Just have a placeholder goal in mind to serve as inspiration for the hard work ahead. The key to not missing the bigger picture during our discussions and planning here has been to go wide at the top (possibilities for careers/degrees in the future) and relatively wide at the bottom. In reality, high school graduation and college admission requirements are so close to the 4x4 or 4x5 with a few electives thrown in that a graduate who has been working at a high overall level should be able to adjust direction as desired as graduation/matriculation approaches. Nothing has to be written in stone.

 

DS is definitely the type who comes up with grand ideas, but doesn't see the incremental steps that will lead to them or a lot of discipline in carrying them out if he does. DH is the same way ( :banghead: ). They have EF issues. Anything they do has to have a "purpose" and that is very important, even if the purpose is just because they think it has a purpose. So when he made the PhD comment I was surprised, but also a bit exasperated. He doesn't know what a PhD entails, which is to be expected of course, but it is annoying when it comes in the midst of him complaining about having to write two full sentences!

I've been there being exasperated about EF issues, but you will see a lot of growth in maturity between 9 and 19 or 29. LOL For now you just meet him where he is, and he is a 9 year old with a dream, just like every other 9 year old with a dream, really. :)

Edited May 26, 2016 by Alte Veste Academy