Math - what is this disconnect

[TracyP]

For background ds is 8yo and finishing up 2nd grade. He is receiving therapy for a mixed expressive-receptive language disorder and phonological disorder. He has a very limited short term auditory memory. In math he made it through CLE 205 this year but has struggled as the year has gone on. His biggest struggle is with the amount of info CLE throws into a lesson. It has become too much for him, so I plan to start him in R&S next fall.

 

Ok, on to my question. I am seeing this big gap in his thinking. For example, he can play Go to the Dump (where you need to make 10s) with zero hesitation, but is stymied when his paper says

8 + 2 = ____.

 

If we are leaving the house at 11:30 he will glance at the clock when it reads 11:12 and shout, "18 minutes left." But he struggles with 30 - 12, or even 10 - 2.

 

And problems like 6 + ___ = 10 are basically impossible for him. Yet again, these are no different than what he is doing in a game like Go to the Dump...

 

Any ideas what is going on here? And more importantly, how can I help?

[retiredHSmom]

For background ds is 8yo and finishing up 2nd grade. He is receiving therapy for a mixed expressive-receptive language disorder and phonological disorder. He has a very limited short term auditory memory. In math he made it through CLE 205 this year but has struggled as the year has gone on. His biggest struggle is with the amount of info CLE throws into a lesson. It has become too much for him, so I plan to start him in R&S next fall.

 

Ok, on to my question. I am seeing this big gap in his thinking. For example, he can play Go to the Dump (where you need to make 10s) with zero hesitation, but is stymied when his paper says

8 + 2 = ____.

 

If we are leaving the house at 11:30 he will glance at the clock when it reads 11:12 and shout, "18 minutes left." But he struggles with 30 - 12, or even 10 - 2.

 

And problems like 6 + ___ = 10 are basically impossible for him. Yet again, these are no different than what he is doing in a game like Go to the Dump...

 

Any ideas what is going on here? And more importantly, how can I help?

I am certainly no expert but it seems that he doesn't see them as the same kind of problem.  So maybe when he looks at the clock and yells out "18 minutes left" you could say "yes, great job, 30 minus 12 is eighteen" and then show him on paper the problem 30-12=18 and even 30-__=18 to reinforce that they are all ways of saying the same thing.

[OneStepAtATime]

I am no expert either but I agree, he probably doesn't "see" these problems with his inner math "eye" the same way.  For instance, with the clock, is it analog or digital?  If it is analog, then he may be seeing the visual cues of the clock and that allows him to quickly determine the elapsed time.  He may need your explicit, consistent help to connect the various forms of the same thing.

 

You might try working with him using the Ronit Bird ebooks to see if he has some wonky things going on with subitization.  

 

You might also try breaking up CLE into much smaller chunks.  Do the drills at another time of day, maybe first thing when he has finished breakfast.  Then do the new material and review problems about mid-morning or mid-afternoon or whenever he is ready.  Do the new material on a dry erase board together, then just pick a few of the review problems to do each day.  If there are areas he is fairly solid, just cross those review problems out and have him do those only once a week or so.  The next day, do targeted review of the previous day's new material together to confirm he still remembers and has a basic understanding, then have him do review problems of that material.

[J-rap]

In the 8+2 problem, if the numbers were represented by pictures of something instead of the actual numerals, would he get the concept then?

 

 

[EKS]

Could you explicitly (and over and over again) show him the parallel between the written problems and the Go to the Dump or clock examples?  

 

As an aside, I know that I process math completely differently depending on what I'm doing.  It actually physically feels like it is happening in a totally different part of my brain.  I actually noticed this while teaching my children using math games and manipulatives and other sorts of nontraditional techniques (such as the Singapore bar models).

Edited May 21, 2016 by EKS

[TracyP]

It is a digital clock.

 

Yes, he gets it fine with a picture or c-rods. Without a visual clue, he is lost, at least on paper.

[TracyP]

Thinking more about the visual model... he had his yearly speech eval just a couple weeks ago. The therapist commented on his inability to make a mental picture. When asked to choose the two related objects from a group of four, he scored 100% when he had a visual. When the pictures were replaced by words alone, he scored 0%. He simply chose the last two words the therapist had said. Maybe something similar is blocking him here.

[TracyP]

If you say eight plus two equals what, what response do you get?

 

If you ask eight cookkes plus two cookies what happens?

 

The first question gets a blank stare, the second gets a correct answer the majority of the time.

[OneStepAtATime]

Thinking more about the visual model... he had his yearly speech eval just a couple weeks ago. The therapist commented on his inability to make a mental picture. When asked to choose the two related objects from a group of four, he scored 100% when he had a visual. When the pictures were replaced by words alone, he scored 0%. He simply chose the last two words the therapist had said. Maybe something similar is blocking him here.

FWIW, I discovered while DD was working through CLE that there was a HUGE disconnect between the words on the page and her understanding of what those words actually meant.  If she had a visual reference they made sense.  If there was no visual reference the words were just meaningless sounds.  CLE actually helped with that, though, because it has her do so much verbally AND on paper.  I tie in visual references with a dry erase board and manipulatives or lessons through Khan Academy or CTC math then she does the lesson with me, and we talk through the meanings of the words and their visual representation.  Then she repeats back what she is doing verbally to me so she can learn to tie the words to the math.  It is a slow process but she is making far more progress doing it that way than when she was just doing math problems without the verbal and visual component.

[PeterPan]

My dd did this, and she turned out to need VT.  As your therapists are saying, she wasn't *visualizing* the quantities.  I would get him to a developmental optometrist and get his eyes checked.  COVD is where you look.

 

Also, language and math can get stored in opposite parts of the brain and need to connect.  So you're going to need to CONNECT the visual and the words and what it feels like.  Ronit Bird has more nuanced games that would help you.  For instance, we just played a game called Four Throws, where you roll the die and choose whether to place that many 10s or 1s on the mat, with the goal being to get as close to 100 as you can.  So don't go to all words.  You're going to need to use the words AND the c-rods together.  RB has some more games like a bus game where you make 20 games for making 7, 8, etc.  She has some free ebooks of games.  The C-Rods ebook is ~$10 and it would be a start.  I would definitely continue math with the c-rods, and I would use them more, not less.  If you can get some RB stuff, it would give you ideas.

[TracyP]

Thanks for the advice, guys. I'm going to try explicitly connecting what he is able to do outside of math class with the problems on paper. It seems like connecting these would be obvious, but I should know better than that by now...

 

I will keep up with the manipulatives and visual models. I'm in no hurry to be done with them - I just want to understand what makes them necessary in one situation but not another.

 

The Ronit Bird stuff looks interesting. I spent a little time looking at it this afternoon, but I'll explore that further, too.

 

 

[PeterPan]

You didn't bite on my suggestion of getting his eyes checked?  :)  When your therapist says he's not visualizing, that's your big clue to get the eyes checked by a developmental optometrist.  You could start with just an annual visit and ask them to screen but doing it with a developmental optometrist instead of regular.  They really might turn up something.  A lot started clicking for my dd after her VT (vision therapy).  

[Vida Winter]

I would try to modify Go to the Dump so he has to solve the problem (like the one he has trouble with) instead of just calling out the number that makes ten. My dd loved playing Go to the Dump.

[TracyP]

You didn't bite on my suggestion of getting his eyes checked? :) When your therapist says he's not visualizing, that's your big clue to get the eyes checked by a developmental optometrist. You could start with just an annual visit and ask them to screen but doing it with a developmental optometrist instead of regular. They really might turn up something. A lot started clicking for my dd after her VT (vision therapy).

I will keep this in mind. I hate to overlook something that could help him. But I also have to be realistic. We struggle with the logistics of getting him to speech therapy every week. We have to drive over an hour each way for that. There is no way we can add vision therapy at this time. I haven't looked through my Dianne Craft stuff for a while. I known she has some vision exercises. I could give those a try for now.

[PeterPan]

Oh I hear you!  We drive 2 hours each way weekly for ds' speech therapy.  But I don't have so many kids.  

 

I think what you could do for the vision is go, have him screened, see if it's even an issue, kwim?  Then if it is an issue, only go once a month for therapy and the rest of the time do homework at home.  An older dc could do the homework with him.  It's usually very simple stuff to supervise.  Your dd12 could do the homework with him.  

 

One reason to take the time to do that screening appt is because you'd like to confirm whether it *is* a vision issue or a math disability or connected to the language thing, kwim?  

 

I can tell you that for my ds, what we do is we play the games using the rods.  So we spend more time playing the games with the rods than we do with cards showing just numbers.  Then I'll lay the rods on the whiteboard and say hey could we write an equation for that?  And then when we play with cards with numbers, I do the same thing, laying the cards on the whiteboard and saying hey what rods would we use with that and then could we write numbers under them?  So it's always completing that circle.  But my ds has SLD math and apraxia and language issues but no visualization problems.  For him, that's enough.  My dd didn't have any SLDs and language issues, but she had the visual processing problems.  For her, that's what glitched up and made her math facts not stick.  So I just think you can't assume one way or another without an eval to tease that apart.  Could even be a combination of things.  So I'd want to *eliminate* some of those so you don't waste time on things that are fine, kwim?

 

But I get what you're saying that things are a little crazy.  Just throwing out ideas.  I think if you did that screening appt, you could see whether it's actually something you need to worry about making happen.  

[OneStepAtATime]

I agree with OhE, if you get the developmental eye screening that at least gives you more information, even if you might not be able to do VT at this time (if it turned out he needed it).  If you found out he needed VT, you could then plan for it for the future and know that this is at least part of the disconnect.  You could make modifications to the way you are presenting the material.  If you found out that wasn't part of the equation you know to seek answers elsewhere.  I realize these things can be very hard to arrange.  Heck, it has taken 2 1/2 years for me to finally get DS and I to another city to get examined by a qualified Developmental Optometrist.  :)  Totally sympathize.

 

Hugs and best wishes.

[geodob]

TracyP,  you raise an important topic.  Where Texas A&M University researchers identified that 70% of middle school students in the US. Don't have a real understanding of the 'equal sign'?

Which probably extends into the adult population?

Where basically '=' is understood as an 'operation'?

As a one way process of calculation.

 

Rather than a 2 way process of 'equivalence'?

Instead of 5+3= ?

5+?=8.

 

 

 

[TracyP]

So I found someone listed on the COVD site who was only 45 min away. She was able to see ds yesterday (and will be seeing my 7yo next week) He has a slight convergence issue. She recommended that we start by trying reading glasses when he does close work. Basically she said that even though it was a small issue, it is work, therefore draining "energy" from the brain that could be going toward things like comprehension. That is probably old news to everyone here, but that explanation made a lot of sense to me. I'm really glad we had this done, so THANK YOU!!

 

Regarding math, we spent the week playing Go to the Dump and working on the whiteboard looking at fact families of 10 and how they relate to each other. Today I printed out a MM page on making 10 to see how it would transfer. He was unsure to start, so we talked about how this was just the same thing as Go to the Dump. We did the first section together, then he waved me away and did the rest on his own. It was a mix of straight addition/subtraction, and missing addends/subtrahend. He flew through them and got them all right. :hurray:  I'll keep connecting these for him in any way I can, and hopefully it will lead to more math success.

 

 

 

[summerreading]

You didn't bite on my suggestion of getting his eyes checked?   :)  When your therapist says he's not visualizing, that's your big clue to get the eyes checked by a developmental optometrist.  You could start with just an annual visit and ask them to screen but doing it with a developmental optometrist instead of regular.  They really might turn up something.  A lot started clicking for my dd after her VT (vision therapy).  

 

:iagree: Yes, He may be seeing 8+2 as a jumble of numbers on the page. I would look into a COVD. My son had both issues, vision and dyslexia. Would not have been able to start remediation seriously without his convergence issues being tackled.

 

>> He is receiving therapy for a mixed expressive-receptive language disorder and phonological disorder. He has a very limited short term auditory memory.

 

It seems like he learns best when information is connected to a story or a bigger picture, which is common with dyslexics. So he gets it better when the problem is cookies that he can imagine eating.

 

Sorry ETA- We also use CLE and my son refused to do timed drills or really any of the drills. If you do drills, if he has poor working memory I think the timed aspect might put too much pressure on him.

Edited May 27, 2016 by summerreading

[OneStepAtATime]

So I found someone listed on the COVD site who was only 45 min away. She was able to see ds yesterday (and will be seeing my 7yo next week) He has a slight convergence issue. She recommended that we start by trying reading glasses when he does close work. Basically she said that even though it was a small issue, it is work, therefore draining "energy" from the brain that could be going toward things like comprehension. That is probably old news to everyone here, but that explanation made a lot of sense to me. I'm really glad we had this done, so THANK YOU!!

 

Regarding math, we spent the week playing Go to the Dump and working on the whiteboard looking at fact families of 10 and how they relate to each other. Today I printed out a MM page on making 10 to see how it would transfer. He was unsure to start, so we talked about how this was just the same thing as Go to the Dump. We did the first section together, then he waved me away and did the rest on his own. It was a mix of straight addition/subtraction, and missing addends/subtrahend. He flew through them and got them all right. :hurray:  I'll keep connecting these for him in any way I can, and hopefully it will lead to more math success.

Yeah!!!!   :hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray: