Help with test results

[mommy25]

Someone suggested that I post here with a topic I had posted in the general discussion section. I am not sure if I am doing this right as I am not on the boards very much. I am going to copy my post here and hopefully figure out how to attach her test results that were done through the township:

I homeschooled for 13 years. My children have been in local Christian schools the last 2 years. The reason for searching out local schools was because I was burned out and also suffering with health issues. I am a little better now. But I miss homeschooling and the freedoms and the simplicity that we once had. All the social problems, answering to someone else, keeping up with all the "unnecessary" stuff has worn me out more, in some ways, than actually homeschooling.

So I have 5 children (2 are done with schooling). 3 of them are the ones attending schools. 2 of them could go either way but one of them wants to stay in school (13 yo). But unfortunately she is the one I am having the most issues with. She isn't doing so well socially and has received multiple demerits and even received an after school detention (mainly for talking but some are for schoolwork). She doesn't do well academically. She was actually tested by the township for learning issues. She was border line needing outside intervention. She also showed add/adhd tendencies on the test and I was told to see a doctor about this. Whenever I have mentioned bringing her back home she makes very negative, rebellious comments.

I just want to simplify things. I want to get her more involved in our church and begin working on our relationships and on her heart. I am concerned that I wouldn't be able to handle her add/adhd tendencies and her attitude. But I feel like sending her to school is giving up on her too. I am also fearful that I will make her worse by bringing her home. Most all of her friends from our church go to this school. But I have told her that she can still play sports there and be able to visit and spend time with them.

I am fervently praying for God to lead me and show me the way regarding this. Any advice, thoughts or encouragement you can offer would be much appreciated.

Edited May 18, 2016 by mommy25

[EKS]

When you say tested by the township, does this mean that she was tested by the school district?  If so, being borderline for needing outside intervention means that she probably could use intervention but it wasn't below the threshold that would allow it to be funded by the school district.  Also, if she does have ADHD, getting that treated could go a long way toward helping her social and disciplinary issues in school and will allow her to focus on remediating any academic weaknesses (which will probably need additional intervention, but dealing with the ADHD will make things go more smoothly).

 

 

Edited May 18, 2016 by EKS

[PeterPan]

EKS is so much more diplomatic than me.  :)  Yes, she is explaining it to you correctly that the school was answering the question of what they could be legally compelled to intervene on, NOT whether there's dyslexia or another SLD going on.  So if you can get a private psych eval, that would be HIGHLY advisable.  That way you can get any SLDs diagnosed.

 

Now, for the ADHD, that's probably underlying the social, the school work problems, etc.  Honestly, I would get her on meds.  It's possible or even probable that her statement about not wanting to come home *isn't* so much about you personally as it is an immature statement that the set-up at home wasn't working for her.  It's nothing personal, just reality.  Kids with SN like this often need high levels of structure and minimal distraction environments.  Did she have that?  If she didn't, I would start there.  

 

I think it *is* possible to bring her home and do well, but I think you ought to strongly consider meds and give her ADHD and disability appropriate accommodations.  That means lots of clear structure and minimal distractions.  And the meds.  If you aren't going to do all those things, I wouldn't even CONSIDER bringing her home. I would strongly consider meds no matter which placement you decide on.  This is the age where things are ramping up, and her ability to cover her ADHD weaknesses is less than ever before.  She's probably incredibly stressed.  If you've ever been open to meds, NOW is the time.

 

If she has not had a private psych eval, you would really benefit from one.  It would be good to let them screen for some additional things like social delay, pragmatics, theory of mind and perspective taking, etc.  It's not at all uncommon for the ps evals to be superficial and miss stuff.  There might be something tying together the ADHD, the suspected SLDs, the behaviors, etc.  

 

I think the problem in saying you want to get to her heart is that it requires a relationship of communication.  If she's feeling all these frustrations over distracting environments, expectations she can't live up to, etc. etc., it could cause those kinds of conflicts.  So that's where getting honest about her challenges and saying ok let me get you those meds can really open up that pathway to talk.  Then, when that part of her personal feelings are taken care of, then she's ready to talk about the other things that are personal to her.  But right now to talk about spiritual things is to imply if she just meditated on more verses and tried harder she could get there.  Could she?  Do you believe that, or do you fundamentally believe she has some physical weaknesses and could use some help?  

 

I'm just saying we've btdt and had to sort those things out, and that was part of it for us.  To have that relationship of integrity, you have to be honest about the challenges of the disabilities.  It's not reasonable just to tell kids to try harder if they ARE trying as hard as they can.

[Julie of KY]

As other have said. Get more testing and treat as necessary.

 

Then I'd go with your instinct on what is best for your child - put her back in school with accommodations/meds as necessary or bring her home. I would consider her wishes, but I wouldn't let her make the ultimate decision.

[mommy25]

EKS is so much more diplomatic than me.   :)  Yes, she is explaining it to you correctly that the school was answering the question of what they could be legally compelled to intervene on, NOT whether there's dyslexia or another SLD going on.  So if you can get a private psych eval, that would be HIGHLY advisable.  That way you can get any SLDs diagnosed.

 

I have a call into a neuropsychologist. This is all new to me, so what is "SLD?"

 

 

Now, for the ADHD, that's probably underlying the social, the school work problems, etc.  Honestly, I would get her on meds.  It's possible or even probable that her statement about not wanting to come home *isn't* so much about you personally as it is an immature statement that the set-up at home wasn't working for her.  It's nothing personal, just reality.  Kids with SN like this often need high levels of structure and minimal distraction environments.  Did she have that?  If she didn't, I would start there.

 

Again, what is SN? And I just wonder.....we DID NOT have a structured environment. So many things taking place at that time and I could not provide that. This is the problem at school -- so many distractions with kids and talking out. Even in study hall she can't do her work because she can't stay focused. Ii think I am in a place now where I could provide that. But she doesn't want to give up seeing her friends and the "school setting". But I am worried because she is not learning like she should.  

 

I think it *is* possible to bring her home and do well, but I think you ought to strongly consider meds and give her ADHD and disability appropriate accommodations.  That means lots of clear structure and minimal distractions.  And the meds.  If you aren't going to do all those things, I wouldn't even CONSIDER bringing her home. I would strongly consider meds no matter which placement you decide on.  This is the age where things are ramping up, and her ability to cover her ADHD weaknesses is less than ever before.  She's probably incredibly stressed.  If you've ever been open to meds, NOW is the time.

 

Have your heard of natural supplements helping with ADHD? I think my husband is completely against them. He thinks all these kids now a days are on these meds and their diets are not addressed. She is very stressed and feels like a failure and less than as compared to the other kids that seem to do so well and it comes easily for them. She is known as the class trouble maker who gets demerits and has her name written on the board every other day. She has acted out in the last 2 weeks with something that was scary and shocking. I am still trying to get over it. But it was a huge wake up call.

 

She is so peer dependent. :/ Its so sad because she is a beautiful girl. Keeps her room spotless. She dresses nicely and takes care of herself without me saying anything. She will randomly clean and organize things in the house. But she so desires the school setting - her friends. And maybe it is the structure? I am just afraid of hurting her further.

 

If she has not had a private psych eval, you would really benefit from one.  It would be good to let them screen for some additional things like social delay, pragmatics, theory of mind and perspective taking, etc.  It's not at all uncommon for the ps evals to be superficial and miss stuff.  There might be something tying together the ADHD, the suspected SLDs, the behaviors, etc.  

 

Our insurance covers one close by and she is Christian as well. So hopefully I can get into her.

 

I think the problem in saying you want to get to her heart is that it requires a relationship of communication.  If she's feeling all these frustrations over distracting environments, expectations she can't live up to, etc. etc., it could cause those kinds of conflicts.  So that's where getting honest about her challenges and saying ok let me get you those meds can really open up that pathway to talk.  Then, when that part of her personal feelings are taken care of, then she's ready to talk about the other things that are personal to her.  But right now to talk about spiritual things is to imply if she just meditated on more verses and tried harder she could get there.  Could she?  Do you believe that, or do you fundamentally believe she has some physical weaknesses and could use some help?  

 

What you say makes sense. Its just been drilled into me that we put kids on meds too quickly without underlining other issues. Even the teachers at her school commented about how horrible it is to see these kids on meds that are zoned out all day and that it is heartbreaking. Her teacher keeps telling me it is a heart issue. But I strongly believe there is something else wrong here. Her dad and I will tell her to stop a certain behavior and she won't!! Its almost like she can't. And then her eyes well up with tears and then she blames us for picking on her. She is always pointing to the other kids or other people as the problem.

 

I'm just saying we've btdt and had to sort those things out, and that was part of it for us.  To have that relationship of integrity, you have to be honest about the challenges of the disabilities.  It's not reasonable just to tell kids to try harder if they ARE trying as hard as they can.

 

And taking her to these doctors and assigning labels is concerning to me as well. I am looking at a vision therapist along with a neuropsychologist. She is going to feel even worse than before. How do you explain this to them? Why she can't do certain things that "suzie" can in the class?

[PeterPan]

Ok, I'm getting really angry here.  For one thing, kids who are medicated properly are NOT zoned out!!!!!!!!!   :cursing:  When the medications are right, the kids are their BEST selves.  Now it's true, sometimes a dc on the spectrum will go on meds and their flat affect will be more noticeable.  Flat affect means they're, well, sorta flat.  Less expression, not so much facial going on even when they're happy.  So yes some kids have a flat affect that is more obvious on meds.  But in general a dc who has a med that fits them well and who is not getting an over amount is their BEST self.  I've known some kids who did seem really zombied, but honestly I think there were extenuating circumstances (being able to afford multiple doctor visits to get things tweaked, affording trying lots of meds to find the right fit, etc.).  

 

So meds do NOT have to be that way.  

 

No, there is not a supplement that will ultimately be as good as meds.  People will sell you stuff, but we had tried it all.  We eat organic, lots of fruit and salads. All that could be done with food, we did.

 

Ok, here's an irony in what you're saying.  You *could* be describing auditory processing disorder.  This child keeps a clean room, yes?  That's pretty astonishing for ADHD.  She might not have what you think/guess!  At our local university you can get a full audiology eval and the SCAN3 screening portion to screen for APD (auditory processing disorder) for $35.  Might be something to consider.  How does she do with background noise?

 

It's a COMMON misconception that giving kids evals and labels makes them think less of themselves.  It's what you do with the results and how you frame it.  She already thinks she's a failure and no good.  She's ALREADY viewing herself negatively.  Good evals just change the words people are using about her.  You'll come out of the evals with a list of accommodations and the CONFIDENCE to spit on anyone who says your dc shouldn't be given them.  

 

Yes, I think if your homeschool situation was lacking in structure, that's why she doesn't want to go back.  So yes, I would get the evals, get the right words, get POSITIVE about what it means to be a successful, accomplished person with disabilities, and get over it.  When you get over it, she'll be over it.  The disabilities are a nothing.  Putting up with a lack of accommodations and lack of appropriate supports, THAT is the problem.  

 

Usually people have ways they explain things.  My dd was about the age of yours (12) when she got her neuropsych eval.  At that point, she really wanted an explanation.  She was hanging with kids in a situation where LOTS of kids in the group had disabilities of one kind or another.  In that group, to get your label finally was like oh yeah what's yours...  So maybe find some people who also deal with disabilities and who acknowledge them with labels and supports and start normalizing this, kwim?  

[OneStepAtATime]

Agree with OhE, getting evaluations may actually HELP her self-esteem.  Depends on how you phrase it.  With DD, she was soooo relieved to know she is dyslexic and that being dyslexic means she isn't stupid, she just processes differently and is actually quite bright.  She had secretly internalized that she was stupid and a failure.  Now she had a reason for her struggles that made sense and offered her some positives and answers for a better path along with the explanation for why reading/spelling was so incredibly hard.

[Tiramisu]

What do you mean by she isn't doing well socially?

 

You mentioned that she got in trouble for talking? Anything else?

 

My response is to not make a change at age 13 that would take her out of a situation she seems to like, with good church friends she wants to be with, even if she's not doing as well as she could be academically. She could fall into a depression. I've had two teen girls who had depression, so that's the thing I get most particular about.

 

You may someday want to bring her home but you absolutely need to address her emotional needs and the ADHD first.

 

And, yes, a lot of dads don't seem to like the idea of meds, but I think they feel differently when they see a child happier and more functional. It kind of stinks that way. It's not magic but it's a good tool to consider when not taking them seems to be creating more difficulties.

 

I really haven't heard of doctors giving out ADHD meds like candy In real life, but I've experienced teachers encouraging their use and sometimes for good reason.

[Julie of KY]

Agreeing that labels CAN be helpful. Of course if you just say I'm so sorry you have x disorder, then that won't make them feel better.

 

I've told my kids that their brains are just wired differently. It makes certain tasks harder, but it gives them other strengths. They feel much more comfortable when they know why they are different and they say they wouldn't give up their disabilities if it also meant giving up their strengths.

 

Also, meds can be very helpful when used for the correct diagnosis. It should make the kids more functional, not less.

[Storygirl]

I hope someone else can look over her scores, since you so helpfully posted pictures. But I can't get them to expand enough on my screen to read them. If you have time, and the current view is not accessible to anyone, you could type out the names of the tests and subtests and the scores in each area.

[PeterPan]

Yeah, the pictures are so small that when I blow them up they're still blurry.  Can you load them somewhere else at a higher res and just share the link?  As a general comment, it looks like they gave you standard scores.  A standard score is a scaled score where the mean is 100 and the standard deviations are (usually) 10.  So a significant discrepancy is 1.5-2 standard deviations.  So it *looks* from what I can see that they're marking scores that are in the 70s, etc., because those are more than 2 SDs below the mean.  It looks (again, blurry) like her IQ scores were about mean.  You can look at discrepancy as a relative thing for diagnosing SLDs when the dc is gifted.  In this case we're just looking at straight out low scores, anything below 80 being really significant.  

 

So I would just go through those labels and see what they are and what the patterns are.  Or if you post them with a higher res that people can read better, people will help.  Look for patterns or things you've heard you can intervene on.  So for instance, scoring low on anything that is a language area would make you think ok let's intervene on that.  (inferences, vocabulary, etc.)  A low RAN/RAS score would be signficant and something you could intervene on.  

 

Was there an adaptive living score in that?  That's significant, definitely.  Also look for patterns like things that are all explained by vision or auditory processing problems.

[Storygirl]

SLD means Specific Learning Disability. A student can have SLD in any of several areas, so you might have SLD reading or SLD math calculations or SLD written expression. SN means special needs.

 

*** Before you read what I wrote next, be aware that I still haven't read your reports, so I am using random numbers. I'm talking about how to understand the numbers in the report in general, and I'm not referring to specific numbers in your testing. ***

 

I think it can be really hard to understand what the test scores signify. It was hard for me in the beginning, and I still have to think it through when I look at scoring. I tend to think "so that score is in the 80s; that's not so bad, because it is kind of like a B." But that is not how the scores work. I'm looking at DS's neuropsych report. He has a few scores that were 88, and that put him in the 21st percentile for those areas. 21st percentile is low. So instead of being equivalent to a B, that 88 is actually a low score. Understanding those numbers is tricky for me. If you know how standard deviation and statistics work, it probably makes more sense to you.

 

You might know all of this already. If you are like me, though, it takes some time to figure it out how to read the reports. If your reports give percentile scores, it's a little easier to grasp their significance.

 

Generally, the school also looks at the scores in relationship to the overall IQ. A student who has an IQ in the low 80s who also has math scores in the low 80s may be considered by the school to be working to his or her potential and therefore may not get a math SLD. Whereas a student with an IQ of 100 but math scores in the 80s might get a SLD math designation, because of the discrepancy between the average IQ and the lower math scores.

 

A school might decline to give someone an SLD designation, even if they are having significant struggle, because the scores didn't quite meet the benchmark numbers they were looking for to declare a disability. But the scores can still reveal areas that could use intervention. I was wondering if that had happened in your daughter's case, which is why I suggested you post her scores over here to get some feedback.

 

I hope that makes some sense. Basically, look at the FSIQ (which is IQ) score, and compare it to the subtest scores to look for areas of weakness, where the scores are significantly lower. If you don't know what ability a certain subtest is testing, you can find that information by googling.

[mommy25]

Ok, I'm getting really angry here.  For one thing, kids who are medicated properly are NOT zoned out!!!!!!!!!   :cursing:  When the medications are right, the kids are their BEST selves.  Now it's true, sometimes a dc on the spectrum will go on meds and their flat affect will be more noticeable.  Flat affect means they're, well, sorta flat.  Less expression, not so much facial going on even when they're happy.  So yes some kids have a flat affect that is more obvious on meds.  But in general a dc who has a med that fits them well and who is not getting an over amount is their BEST self.  I've known some kids who did seem really zombied, but honestly I think there were extenuating circumstances (being able to afford multiple doctor visits to get things tweaked, affording trying lots of meds to find the right fit, etc.).  

 

So meds do NOT have to be that way.  

 

No, there is not a supplement that will ultimately be as good as meds.  People will sell you stuff, but we had tried it all.  We eat organic, lots of fruit and salads. All that could be done with food, we did.

 

It was suggested to go gluten free and sugar free. She has a HUGE problem with sugar. My issue with this is that I can't get her to eat this way. She doesn't want to hear it.

 

Ok, here's an irony in what you're saying.  You *could* be describing auditory processing disorder.  This child keeps a clean room, yes?  That's pretty astonishing for ADHD.  She might not have what you think/guess!  At our local university you can get a full audiology eval and the SCAN3 screening portion to screen for APD (auditory processing disorder) for $35.  Might be something to consider.  How does she do with background noise?

 

I wondered about auditory processing. I am going to look further into this. She says that she needs her music to do her homework, that it somehow helps her. Don't know if that's an excuse. But she has a hard time at school focusing on what she is suppose to be doing when others are talking or there is any commotion around her.

 

It's a COMMON misconception that giving kids evals and labels makes them think less of themselves.  It's what you do with the results and how you frame it.  She already thinks she's a failure and no good.  She's ALREADY viewing herself negatively.  Good evals just change the words people are using about her.  You'll come out of the evals with a list of accommodations and the CONFIDENCE to spit on anyone who says your dc shouldn't be given them.  

 

Yes, I think if your homeschool situation was lacking in structure, that's why she doesn't want to go back.  So yes, I would get the evals, get the right words, get POSITIVE about what it means to be a successful, accomplished person with disabilities, and get over it.  When you get over it, she'll be over it.  The disabilities are a nothing.  Putting up with a lack of accommodations and lack of appropriate supports, THAT is the problem.  

 

That makes sense. The school she is going to is really our only choice in our particular situation. And there is not accommodations. Unless the township comes in and they have said that they won't. This is where her friends are and where she says she HAS to go. She is very unwilling to come home.

 

Usually people have ways they explain things.  My dd was about the age of yours (12) when she got her neuropsych eval.  At that point, she really wanted an explanation.  She was hanging with kids in a situation where LOTS of kids in the group had disabilities of one kind or another.  In that group, to get your label finally was like oh yeah what's yours...  So maybe find some people who also deal with disabilities and who acknowledge them with labels and supports and start normalizing this, kwim?  

[mommy25]

What do you mean by she isn't doing well socially?

She is very peer dependent. Follows the crowd too much. She will say or do things that she shouldn't in order to gain approval.

You mentioned that she got in trouble for talking? Anything else?

​Mainly for talking out in class, or just not doing what she was told to do. There were a few times she forgot homework or didn't turn something in. Forgets to write assignments down from the board. She wants to be social and talk with friends and inappropriate times.

 

My response is to not make a change at age 13 that would take her out of a situation she seems to like, with good church friends she wants to be with, even if she's not doing as well as she could be academically. She could fall into a depression. I've had two teen girls who had depression, so that's the thing I get most particular about.

 

Yes, I am concerned about this too. :( She is very passionate about school and her friends.

 

You may someday want to bring her home but you absolutely need to address her emotional needs and the ADHD first.

 

And, yes, a lot of dads don't seem to like the idea of meds, but I think they feel differently when they see a child happier and more functional. It kind of stinks that way. It's not magic but it's a good tool to consider when not taking them seems to be creating more difficulties.

 

I really haven't heard of doctors giving out ADHD meds like candy In real life, but I've experienced teachers encouraging their use and sometimes for good reason.

 

[mommy25]

I hope someone else can look over her scores, since you so helpfully posted pictures. But I can't get them to expand enough on my screen to read them. If you have time, and the current view is not accessible to anyone, you could type out the names of the tests and subtests and the scores in each area.

 

I don't know how to upload her test results any other way. My husband said he would help me later. Thank you for your response below. I have printed out everything you all have told me. I need to keep this info and sit down and put my mind to it and figure out what I need to do for her.

[PeterPan]

What you're describing with her wanting to use music to help her focus is a GOOD thing to do with ADHD!!!  She's trying to help herself in good ways!

 

I would talk with your ped, get some evals, consider meds.  She's asking for help, and that's the help.  Any benefit from supplements, etc. will be nominal compared to just plain going on the meds.  A dose of caffeine is equivalent in effect to 5 mg of Ritalin.  Normal starting dose for her would be, what, 10 mg?  And that would last 3-4 hours, meaning she'd have to do caffeine again and again and again to get an even HALF WAY similar effect.  The meds can be extended release, one pill done, and they're MUCH more effective than the caffeine.

 

When they're at an age where THEY are asking for help, it's really time.

[PeterPan]

I think some of this stuff that is bugging you (eating, blurting out, etc.) is because of the ADHD.  You get that impulsivity under control, improve her ability to be CONFIDENT that her body is doing what she expects and that she can be successful, and why will she follow the crowd?  She won't.  I think you'd find it all goes back.

[PeterPan]

So in that evaluation, did they actually diagnose ADHD?  And how long ago were those evals?

 

ADHD is something even a ped can diagnose.  Now the problem with doing that is you aren't getting a complete eval.  You aren't looking at processing speed, learning disabilities, etc. etc.  But just for the ADHD, you could get that done with your ped.  

[Storygirl]

If your husband can't figure out a way to enhance the images, you can just type out your list of tests and the numerical scores. It will take a few minutes, but people often do that. Just the names of the tests and categories and the numerical score. If you look at a few other threads, you can see what others have done.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Storygirl

[mommy25]

So in that evaluation, did they actually diagnose ADHD?  And how long ago were those evals?

 

No, they didn't diagnose her with ADHD. They just said that she had "ADHD" tendencies. She was evaluated right before Christmas.

 

ADHD is something even a ped can diagnose.  Now the problem with doing that is you aren't getting a complete eval.  You aren't looking at processing speed, learning disabilities, etc. etc.  But just for the ADHD, you could get that done with your ped.  

 

I am waiting on the neuropsych doc to call me back. I am not sure if they only do ADHD testing or if she can do the auditory testing as well.

 

I am gonna try and type out the test results.

[mommy25]

So there seems like a lot to type out here but I am gonna post things that fell out of range or close to being out of range and what they were.

 

The standard score range is 85-117 which is what they say are normal limits.

 

Visual/Auditory learning (Long term storage and retrieval of visual and auditory) 77

Numbers reversed (Short term and working memory attention span) 75

Memory for words (Measures short term auditory memory span) 83

Reading Fluency 84

Passage comprehension 84

 

 

All of her teachers marked these areas as problems based on their observation of her:

Attention problems: easily distracted

School problems: attention and learning problems

 

One teacher out of the three said:

overly active

Learning problems

 

Audrey personally rated these problems for herself:

Feels alienated

Takes risks to see excitement

Perception of of being unsuccessful in school; unable to achieve one's goals

Difficulty concentrating

 

[Terabith]

What were the names of the tests given?

[Tiramisu]

Also curious about scores for verbal comprehension index, perceptual reasoning or visual -spatial, fluid reasoning, working memory index, and processing speed.

[mommy25]

So there seems like a lot to type out here but I am gonna post things that fell out of range or close to being out of range and what they were.

 

The standard score range is 85-117 which is what they say are normal limits.

 

Cognitive Functioning Assessments:

 

Visual/Auditory learning (Long term storage and retrieval of visual and auditory) 77

Numbers reversed (Short term and working memory attention span) 75

Memory for words (Measures short term auditory memory span) 83

 

Academic Achievement Assessments:

Reading Fluency 84

Passage comprehension 84

 

 

All of her teachers marked these areas as problems based on their observation of her:

Attention problems: easily distracted

School problems: attention and learning problems

 

One teacher out of the three said:

overly active

Learning problems

 

Audrey personally rated these problems for herself:

Feels alienated

Takes risks to see excitement

Perception of of being unsuccessful in school; unable to achieve one's goals

Difficulty concentrating

[mommy25]

Also curious about scores for verbal comprehension index, perceptual reasoning or visual -spatial, fluid reasoning, working memory index, and processing speed.

Verbal comprehension was 92

 

I don't see the rest. My husband is trying right now to get the results uploaded here. :)

[Tiramisu]

What you're describing with her wanting to use music to help her focus is a GOOD thing to do with ADHD!!!  She's trying to help herself in good ways!

 

I would talk with your ped, get some evals, consider meds.  She's asking for help, and that's the help.  Any benefit from supplements, etc. will be nominal compared to just plain going on the meds.  A dose of caffeine is equivalent in effect to 5 mg of Ritalin.  Normal starting dose for her would be, what, 10 mg?  And that would last 3-4 hours, meaning she'd have to do caffeine again and again and again to get an even HALF WAY similar effect.  The meds can be extended release, one pill done, and they're MUCH more effective than the caffeine.

 

When they're at an age where THEY are asking for help, it's really time.

 

I don't know if I've talked about this here but my dd has started using TV dramas as a study aid. This was a big leap for me, especially since we've never had TV in the house. I can't study with music so that was hard enough for me to understand, and now I've made the move to allow certain TV shows while doing math. We have to do what works. Dh didn't like it, but wow, work was getting done.  

 

But then today I woke up sick and couldn't type in the password to give dd time on the computer to watch her show, and she spent a lot of the day lying around. She actually did get work done in the end, but I could see how the TV shows have been helpful for getting her body and brain moving. Honestly, this shows me some kids are really wired differently.

 

I think IM has made this possible. I wouldn't recommend this as an option, but I offer it as an extreme example of the neural stimulus that can get kids going. The np calls it "juice." 

 

I also think it has helped with social skills.  :blushing:

[mommy25]

Ok so hopefully this works.

 

Test results:

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3079262/Buis%20A%20Initial%20Report.pdf

 

[Arcadia]

Verbal comprehension was 92

 

I don't see the rest. My husband is trying right now to get the results uploaded here. :)

 

It is on page 2 of PDF (labelled page 13 of report) but I am not familiar with the Woodcock-Johnson Tests of Cognitive Abilities so can't interpret that.

 

Ok so hopefully this works.

 

Test results:

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3079262/Buis%20A%20Initial%20Report.pdf

 

You might want to blank out her name. Her DOB is wrong on the report.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Arcadia

[mommy25]

Thanks :) my husband took her name off. Yes, they out 2012 instead of 2002.

[MistyMountain]

Working memory is a big weakness which definitely is something that is common with ADHD. Her numbers reversed was especially weak which is very related to working memory becuase you have to hold the info in your head and then manipulate it. Her visual memory was also weak so maybe getting a vision evaluation would be something to look into. Working memory can be improved so I bet that would help functioning.

Edited May 20, 2016 by MistyMountain

[Arcadia]

 

I wondered about auditory processing. I am going to look further into this. She says that she needs her music to do her homework, that it somehow helps her. Don't know if that's an excuse. But she has a hard time at school focusing on what she is suppose to be doing when others are talking or there is any commotion around her.

 

Has she been evaluated for Sensory processing disorder (SPD)?  My DS10 is both a sensory seeker (talks just to hear himself talk, high pain threshold) and sensory avoider (hates noise, picky eater).  When there is chatter, he makes careless mistakes.  When it is as silent as an exam room, he does very well. When I use classical music or hard rock as an "anti-noise", he works very well too. He also has a harder time concentrating on more than a few sentences if the teacher is not in his line of sight. He is aware though that he works better if he is seated in the front row where he can't see the commotion and he can see the teacher well.

 

The place where he was tested was quiet as a church mouse and the tester was facing him at all times.  He was able to focus.

[mommy25]

No, only what is listed in this report. She has an appointment with a vision therapist (insurance covers testing but doesn't cover the therapy so we won't be able to do that if it's needed).

[PeterPan]

I think that's wise to get her eyes checked.  *Something* is making that attention and processing and working memory hard.  Could be the eyes or auditory processing or ADHD or a mix, but something clearly is.  The most interesting score, to me, is that 77 visual/auditory learning on the WJIII Cog.  That, and the working memory, were significantly lower than everything else.  So I think within there you're seeing the glitch.  

 

Well let us know how those extra evals go and what they find!   :)

Edited May 20, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Storygirl]

I have some thoughts, but I'm on my way out the door. I'll chime in later this afternoon or tonight.

 

I will say this now -- some of her scores are right on the bubble, where they are low, but evidently not quite low enough for the school to agree to offer services. The truth is that another school might have made a different call in those borderline areas and given her more help. It's unfortunate, but it there are a few things that you can do.

 

* Get her some private assessments (more in my later messages about what kind of assessments you might consider). Let the private practitioners know you are not getting sufficient help from the school, therefore

   (1) you would like ideas that you can implement at home, and

   (2) if they think she should be getting more help at school, ask that they write a report or letter indicating that.

 

* If your private assessments show more need for help than what the school's testing shows, you can go back to the school with your new reports and ask them to re-open her case, due to new data.
 

More later!

[Storygirl]

First, I think you would benefit from looking into the possible ADHD. The school advised you to discuss this with a doctor, and I'm wondering if you have done that yet? Honestly, I think the school's suggestion for a medical opinion and the statement "ADHD tendencies" is their way of saying they think she has ADHD but wouldn't diagnose it themselves. By not saying ADHD outright, they may think they can skip over taking responsibility for accommodating it.

 

A lot of what you are describing could be related to ADHD, but you will only know for sure if you get a medical diagnosis. Some pediatricians will do that in house, and others will refer you to a psychiatrist. Counseling and learning techniques for calming and regulating emotions can be very helpful. We worked with a child psychologist for that for awhile, and it was covered by our insurance.

 

The most striking difference happened when we started using meds for ADHD. Some people are anti-meds. I was philosophically against them, because I thought we should be able to modify and accommodate as homeschoolers; however, once we reached a tipping point and decided we needed to try them, we found out what a huge difference it made, not only in DS's ability to accomplish schoolwork, but in his ability to get along with other people. Huge. His level of functioning and emotional regulation are vastly improved on meds. It has made a difference not only for him, but for our whole family.

 

Now, if there is a diagnosis of ADHD, and if it has an impact on her academic ability, she should qualify for some accommodations on a 504. I know you said on your other thread that you thought 504 plans were only for public schools, but that is not really true. Our private school uses 504 plans. Here is an article for you that I just found by googling:

http://corporate.findlaw.com/litigation-disputes/the-rehabilitation-act-of-1973-section-504-as-applied-to.html

Your school may not accept federal funding, and they may not follow 504 plans, but find out for sure. The fact that they would allow the township school to evaluate their students suggests to me that they do work with the public school systems. You may have already discussed all of this with them. I'm just saying -- don't assume anything. Find out for sure.

 

A 504 plan does not provide services but does provide accommodations. You can google to find out some examples of things that could be listed in there. Some of them would be absolutely no trouble at all for your private school to do for your daughter (example, giving her priority seating in the classroom). If you can figure out what kind of accommodations might help her, you may be able to advocate for your school providing them, even without a 504 in place.

 

You may have already run into this, but there are certain Christian circles who do not believe that ADHD is a real thing. They would say it is just sin and misbehavior. If your church-affiliated school is in this camp, you are going to have a harder time getting them to understand and help her.

 

So my number one suggestion is to figure out whether it is ADHD or not, and consider medicating if it is. If you are really against meds, do some research before you shut the door on the idea completely. Keep in mind that most ADHD medications are extremely short acting (just a few hours), so it is possible to do them on a trial basis. (And it sometimes takes trying more than one med to find the one that is perfect, so it's a process). Even if you think you don't like the idea of meds, you might try them for a week (just a short period is enough to see whether there is a difference). They have really been life altering here, and I wish we had started them much sooner.

 

 

[Storygirl]

How is her spelling? I see that she did alright on the testing, but in her writing, how is her spelling? And can she sound out words that she doesn't know by sight? Her reading comprehension skills are good, so that could be masking an underlying reading disability. Her reading scores were on the lower side. They may not seem too low, but they are in line with my daughter's, and she has dyslexia.

 

I would have wanted them to run a CTOPP, which is a test of phonological ability. Dyslexia is a phonological disability, so the CTOPP can tease that out. If you pursue more testing with an educational psychologist, or if you have the schools retest at some point, I would request the CTOPP. If you have a private school for dyslexia anywhere near you, they sometimes offer free reading screenings that can flag whether a child is at risk for a reading disability.

 

If her spelling is great, and she has no trouble decoding long, unfamiliar words (or nonsense words), her lower reading scores could be related to inattention and working memory problems, but just by the scores you have now, I wouldn't rule out a reading disability. I'd consider looking into it further. Sometimes children are not diagnosed with dyslexia until they are teens, because they have seemed to be on track with peers generally or have not had problems great enough for intervention to be considered. But once they start more in-depth academic work in middle school or high school, they begin to flounder more. This is sometimes called stealth dyslexia. You can read this article to see if it describes your daughter at all:

 

http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10435.aspx

 

There is a lot of crossover of symptoms with ADHD and dyslexia, including issues with working memory. So ADHD could cause symptoms that look like dyslexia but are not really due to a phonological impairment. Also, vision issues can cause reading trouble, so it's good you are getting the COVD screening. But it's important to distinguish that vision issues are not the cause of dyslexia (a common misunderstanding).

 

There is also crossover of symptoms among ADHD, auditory processing, dyslexia, and hearing loss. So testing by an audiologist for both hearing loss and auditory processing could be a good idea. If you have a big university with an audiology department nearby, they may run a free or low cost clinic where you can get auditory testing done.

 

So those lower reading scores could be rooted in a number of underlying issues. If you can tease some of that out with private testing, you will know more. You may be able to find someone who will just run a CTOPP for you. I think a speech therapist can sometimes run that test.

[Storygirl]

Someone mentioned sensory issues. That could be at play as well. An occupational therapist can run some baseline testing to tell you if there are issues related to sensory processing. Check your insurance to see if it would be covered. In the best of worlds, the school OT would have tested for that. If you are willing to re-engage the school, you could say that you think they should have screened for OT issues and ask them to do it.

 

The OT we used to go to liked to say that she thought many kids were misdiagnosed with ADHD when they really had sensory processing issues. She had a kind of personal anti-ADHD philosophy and was all about OT being the solution to everything, so I just let her talk and continued to treat DS's ADHD anyway ;).

 

But she had a point. There are many symptoms that could point to either ADHD or sensory issues.

 

If your insurance will cover it, or if you think the sensory issues are intense enough to benefit from some help, you could consider doing some OT on a short term basis. Get the initial screening and ask them to create and teach her a home program. Because your daughter is not always willing to comply at home, you could ask them to make her a checklist that she can complete herself each day (or several times a week), and include as the last item on the checklist that she is to report in to you. You could then create an easy reward system, where she earns something (a privilege, a treat, electronics time, a visit to the ice cream shop, etc.) once she has completed her checklist a certain number of times. Maybe you award her a point for each time she completes it, and go for ice cream when she accumulates 20 points. Make it fun for her instead of a burden for you.

[Storygirl]

Also, it looks to me as if they only ran the processing (coding) testing for the WISC. The other categories are blank. Those other subtests can give you really vital information. I wonder why they didn't run them. I might question that if I were you. I don't see an IQ score on those reports. The WISC testing allows the school to calculate IQ (called FSIQ for full scale IQ), which is really important, because it allows you to see whether her performance is matching her ability level. Knowing whether she is lower on verbal or perceptual skills can be extremely enlightening. I think Tiramisu asked about those scores, and you said you didn't see them on the report. I don't see them, either, and I think that is an area where the township testing fell short.

 

Unless someone else sees something I am missing?

[Tiramisu]

Also, it looks to me as if they only ran the processing (coding) testing for the WISC. The other categories are blank. Those other subtests can give you really vital information. I wonder why they didn't run them. I might question that if I were you. I don't see an IQ score on those reports. The WISC testing allows the school to calculate IQ (called FSIQ for full scale IQ), which is really important, because it allows you to see whether her performance is matching her ability level. Knowing whether she is lower on verbal or perceptual skills can be extremely enlightening. I think Tiramisu asked about those scores, and you said you didn't see them on the report. I don't see them, either, and I think that is an area where the township testing fell short.

 

Unless someone else sees something I am missing?

 

I had an np run parts of the IQ test but not all subtests for one of my DDs. I think that np went in to the testing with bias about what she thought the issues were and decided to take short cuts to save time. And, yes, it fell short. Everyone who looked at it questioned her choice, even another np. So it's not unheard of, but I don't think it's accepted as good practice and could cause problems down the road if you need a full IQ test for accommodations, etc. I made sure when I went to get another DD evaluated that I didn't go back to that np and made sure a full IQ test was done.

 

Also, from our own experience, I think of how the various subtests can point to visual and motor weaknesses. That's one way an np will know what further tests will be useful.

 

[Terabith]

Well, in this case they did do another full IQ test- the Woodcock Johnson Cognitive Battery. The WISC processing speed subtests were extra.

[Heathermomster]

Your DD wants to be at the school, and that is a good thing.  Use that currency to motivate her and get the results you both want.  

 

Maybe, see a COVD VT and get a preliminary vision screening.  

 

I understand that you and your DH struggle with the prospect of ADHD medication.  Well, for children with executive function and attention issues, the new standard of treatment is CBT cognition work followed up with the possibility of meds.  The CBT will look at all testing results and take in any pertinent medical info.  During the interview, they will ascertain the situation and help you and your DD establish goals.  For CBT to work, your DD must buy into the program.  Honestly, she wants to be with her friends at school.  You pay money for her to be enrolled.  Why waste your money at that school if she will not apply herself or buy into the program?  The choice really is that simple.

 

CBT will likely recommend exercise and cognition work to improve her working memory.  There will be work to help her become more organized.  As the parents, you and your DH will help organize a structure in your home that scaffolds her EF and attention issues.  It's not enough to nag her.  You will need to come alongside and support her.  As time progresses, the CBT may or may not recommend meds.   

 

As to the meds...Your DD can take a genetic test to help determine any potential bad reactions.  Your DD's attention can be tested while off and then on the meds to determine whether they even work.  You can stop a med trial at any time.  Meds have the potential to help many students when administered carefully.  

 

These issues tend to run in families.  Honestly, any positive change that is directed towards your DD will likely benefit all of your children.  

 

 

[PeterPan]

Fwiw, the studies suggesting it's better to do parent counseling first (they didn't even say CBT, I don't think? but were actually parent counseling?) and then meds were with younger children.  I agree meds alone won't solve anything, but when a dc of that age is actually suffering from ADHD and seriously begging for help, I'd get them the meds AND get whatever counseling, EF help, etc. you want at the same time.  

 

Also, CBT is not the only way to go.  Around here CBT would be with a p-doc and is prohibitively expensive ($350 an hour!).  For $80 a session (a comparative bargain!) you can get in with a really stellar Educational Therapist.  There's an org that certifies them.  The ed therapist will consult with the child and tries to be like rocket fuel, getting them organized and functional, solving problems, coordinating with the parents and prescribing doc for dosing meds, etc.  So an Ed Therapist can also be a REALLY good way to go and an affordable way.  Heathermomster and I already talked about that and she couldn't find one in her area.  But if you can, it can be a really good option!

 

So again, I just see no benefit to delaying meds if a child is clearly ADHD and failing the Quotient and TOVA at age 13.  CBT alone won't do it, and the studies indicating greater satisfaction with counseling before meds were counseling the *parents* and with parents of *younger* kids.  I would go directly to meds, end the misery, bring the skills of the ed therapist or CBT into reach.  Pairing them could make for a DRAMATIC change.  Not bringing in the meds but expecting the dc to change so much could leave her incredibly frustrated.  It's like saying dig a ditch but I give you a teaspoon.  You could eventually, but it's not fair.

[Terabith]

I can't get anyone to administer either the Quotient or the Tova here. Just questionnaires. Sigh.

[Storygirl]

I know I shared a lot of thoughts before, but here is my succinct advice:

 

* Homeschooling doesn't sound like a viable option, since she is resistant and it didn't go smoothly before.

* You say public school is not an option.

* Your current private school is responding to her issues with disciplinary measures instead of accommodations.

* You don't think you will get any extra help or services from the public or private schools.

 

Given those parameters, it seems to me that you are going to have to provide her with the structure and support that the school is refusing to do. I would

1) Get counseling/therapy/help for the behavior, as suggested by previous posters

2) Get an ADHD diagnosis and begin medicating, so that she has a chance to succeed in the classroom

3) Make a contract with her, since she wants to stay in school, that you paying her tuition means she has to do XYZ (whatever is needed, such as having you check her homework each night)

4) Meet with the school principal and teachers and ask if they would do some simple things to help, such as changing her seating in the classroom and giving her all her assignments in writing (or emailing them to you.)

 

I wish you well!

[PeterPan]

I can't get anyone to administer either the Quotient or the Tova here. Just questionnaires. Sigh.

 

Really?  Around here the private psychs do TOVA, the ps psychs have another tap tap on the computer type test, and the peds do Quotient.  The Quotient really is the swankiest and most interesting, and it's a pretty hefty investment.  Maybe call a larger ped practice and see if they have it?

[Tiramisu]

Well, in this case they did do another full IQ test- the Woodcock Johnson Cognitive Battery. The WISC processing speed subtests were extra.

Very good point!

[mommy25]

I wanted to apologize to all of you for not responding before now. It has been a very trying week and I have been in bed for several day sick and not feeling good. I must admit that I am bit overwhelmed at all the knowledge you lovely ladies shared with me. But I have printed it all out to keep in her file so that when I feel better I can focus in on the information that you guys have given.

 

A special thanks to OhElizabeth and StoryGirl as you both were extremely supportive and helpful.

 

We are starting this Friday with the vision therapy doctor. Neuro psych never called so will atempt to contact her again. Then I am going to take those results along with the school assesment to a doctor to try some meds. Those are at least my short term plan. Last day of school tomorrow.

 

Thanks again!!!

[Guest]

I would encourage you to do your own research on meds and not just rely on the opinions of individuals that are strangers to you and your child.

[PeterPan]

We can have an anti-med viewpoint or a *not what I chose* viewpoint without dissing BTDT viewpoints.  I've btdt and I've done the 13 yo girl not on meds, and I have some pretty frank opinions on it.  I've also been pretty staunchly in the "there's a lot you can do before/without meds" camp and the "don't medicate them just because you're unwilling to change your approach" camp.  

 

Once someone has made every modification possible and the child is STILL exceedingly frustrated and affected, I think the COMPASSIONATE thing is to open your mind to meds.  I do not think it's compassionate to leave a vulnerable teen constantly frustrated when they could feel better.  It is neither compassionate nor reasonable to vilify meds that work only slightly differently from the CAFFEINE that every self-righteous baptist in America feels entitled to guzzle after church while slamming ADHD meds in church.  (I was raised in this group.  I speak of my own.)

 

When you've done age 13-17 girl, you get pretty opinionated, because you've btdt and you KNOW what happens.  But sure, research.  It's ugly.  I've read on forums and around the internet for hours people telling stories about how they abuse these drugs, insufflate them, intentionally seek larger doses, combine them with other things, etc. etc.  It's sick.  But I tell you lots of people are addicted to CAFFEINE, which works essentially the same way chemically, just affecting a couple less areas of the brain, and they don't feel one iota of qualms or guilt about THAT.  

 

They're hard choices, that's for sure.  I think it's good to make a COMPASSIONATE choice.  These meds can make driving safer for our teens.  They can improve mild auditory processing challenges.  They, of course, improve their ability to do their academics, but they also improve their ability to do basic things like clean their rooms without anxiety.  It's really easy to lose all that in the shuffle, while you read about college kids seeking out street meds and insufflating and intentionally getting high.  It's really easy to miss the basic good that comes from teeny, tiny doses.

 

And fwiw, they're also making meds now that are "pro-drugs" tied chemically to enzymes, so they basically have no ability to insufflate them and get high, thus no street value.  It's pretty fascinating stuff.

Edited May 25, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Heathermomster]

I forgot to mention this earlier.  My son's child psych often sends patients to OT for a full motor evaluation prior to any meds.  OT can also provide Interactive Metronome, which has been known to help with attention.