Is there a DELF/AP comparison? Do you have a view?

[madteaparty]

I'm not interested in the tests themselves (yet!) but more on the fact that my DS's tutor is very familiar with one and not at all with the other and also that there's so much material on one and again, not so much on the other. Many thanks!

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

This is such a headache-inducing question!  LOL.  Basically, you need to try to bring everything back to the Common European Framework of References for Languages.  These are the A1, A2, B1, B2... levels.  Here's the DELF/DALF vs Common European Framework comparison.  

 

Unfortunately, the AP exams are not aligned with the Common European Framework.  Sigh.  It's basically inches vs centimeters for language.  :-D  If you google the question you are asking, you will see you are not the only person asking it, and NO ONE SEEMS TO KNOW THE ANSWER!!!  It's so irritating!!!  It seems to be that AP is considered somewhere between B1-B2 level of CEFR.  

 

From the CEFR wiki:

 

 

Relationship with duration of learning process[edit]

Deutsche Welle suggests A1 is reached with about 75 hours of German studies, A2.1 with about 150 hours, A2.2 with about 225 hours, B1.1 with about 300 hours, and B1.2 with about 400 hours.^[6]

Cambridge English Language Assessment said that each level is reached with the following guided learning hours: A2, 180–200; B1, 350–400; B2, 500–600; C1, 700–800, and C2, 1,000–1,200.^[7]

Alliance Française has stated students can expect to reach CEFR levels after the following cumulative hours of instruction: A1 60–100, A2 160–200, B1 360–400, B2 560–650, C1 810–950, C2 1060–1200.^[8]

 

If we assume a student takes four years of HS French (1,2,3,AP), at 45minx180daysx4years, they would have 540 "guided hours" of language: so between B1-B2.

 

The only caveat I would add is that most Europeans are learning a foreign language from a native speaker of that language, whereas most Americans are learning a foreign language from another American who learned it as a foreign language.  I'm not sure how much that really impacts things, but it's worth considering.

 

 

[Loesje22000]

You might want to check posts from Joan in Geneva on the Highschool board about this topic related to German.

She is better informed with both sides then me.

It should be in the 2013/2014 posts

 

If AP French at The Potter School is representive, then it is (at least) B2 (+) - I think -

I don't have C1 books at home for French (yet) so I can't compare that.

 

The Dutch exam system requires different levels for active use (speaking/writing) then for passive use (reading, listening) of a language.

Passive is always higher required then active use.

 

For students from grade 7+ Belgium+Netherlands, both take the same pace:

1-2 years French = A2

4-5 years French = B1

5-6 years French = B1+ - B2

Both countries don't give the same amount instruction in French.

 

In all of the above I refer to college bound tracks.

Vocational tracks have a different pace (4 years for A2)

 

For college entry different countries have different requirements about what level is needed..

 

AP Latin seems to be 'lower' then AP French compared to the Flemish schoolsystem.

AP Latin = grade 10 exam

AP French > grade 12 exam.

 

[8filltheheart]

This is such a headache-inducing question! LOL. Basically, you need to try to bring everything back to the Common European Framework of References for Languages. These are the A1, A2, B1, B2... levels. Here's the DELF/DALF vs Common European Framework comparison.

 

Unfortunately, the AP exams are not aligned with the Common European Framework. Sigh. It's basically inches vs centimeters for language. :-D If you google the question you are asking, you will see you are not the only person asking it, and NO ONE SEEMS TO KNOW THE ANSWER!!! It's so irritating!!! It seems to be that AP is considered somewhere between B1-B2 level of CEFR.

 

From the CEFR wiki:

 

If we assume a student takes four years of HS French (1,2,3,AP), at 45minx180daysx4years, they would have 540 "guided hours" of language: so between B1-B2.

 

The only caveat I would add is that most Europeans are learning a foreign language from a native speaker of that language, whereas most Americans are learning a foreign language from another American who learned it as a foreign language. I'm not sure how much that really impacts things, but it's worth considering.

Yikes, Monica, that is a WAY overstatement of US reality! We have visited so many colleges foreign language depts and the **college** graduation goals vary from ACTFL intermediate-mid to advanced-low. (And, yes, those are pretty low standards. Dd tested into B1 in Russian this yr and I am pretty confident she is already advanced low in all areas in French and higher in some parts.) Her French is light yrs beyond her Russian, so I am not sure how to even reconcile the B1 and the advanced-low! (Based on online assessements she is in the C range in French.)

 

If you look at this wiki chart, you can see a general framework comparison (copy and pasted only relevant parts for simplicity's sake.)

CEFR ACTFL

A1 Novice (Low/Mid/High)

A2. Intermediate (Low/Mid/High)

B1. Advanced Low

B2 Advanced Mid

C1. Advanced High

C2. Superior

 

This link goes into more depth: http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/jgoldfield/ACTFL-CEFRcomparisons09-10.pdf

 

A 5 on the AP will allow students to only place out of the first 3-4 semesters of college language. For example, a 5 allows students to place out of French 122 on this campus. http://artsandsciences.sc.edu/dllc/placement/FREN-classprereqs

 

But their graduation goal is only intermediate-high! http://artsandsciences.sc.edu/dllc/FREN/Major (See #2.) (Don't confuse course titles (intermediate, advanced, etc) with ACTFL language levels bc they don't match. Advanced coursework only leads to intermediate-high.)

 

I don't know the exact correlation. Dd totally skipped the AP French path bc it didn't mesh with how she approached language studies. (But I think A1+ is probably more realistic. No real idea, though.)

 

Fwiw, we have gone to multiple college campuses, and a couple have actually mocked dd for wanting to achieve anything in the advanced ACTFL level. Seriously. It is pretty awful. Finding a school that can match her levels and that we can afford is extremely challenging.)

 

ETA: I have edited multiple times in attempt to clarify!

Edited May 13, 2016 by 8FillTheHeart

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

8- I think with book learning it would be nearly impossible to advance beyond B2, which is probably why college course levels don't expect any better.  With a private tutor, or ideally with a semester or year abroad, I think a strong student could easily advance to C1-C2.  

 

When I finished AP French, technically, I "knew" all there was to know about French grammar.  All the tenses and how to conjugate them, and when to use them.  From that level onward, it's about adding fluency in usage and vocabulary.  My college French courses were mostly literature based, with some grammar refreshers.  I don't consider my French to have advanced at all in 1.5 years of college French... aside from some incidental vocabulary... probably less than 200 words?  Sad.  

 

But the study abroad moved me firmly into the Cs, and there I've stayed, because there's nowhere else for me to go.  :-)  I hate claiming I'm fluent, although I am by any definition.  It's just that the more you know, the more you realize you don't know.  

 

Anyway, all that to say that I don't think the actual "level" of French advances much after AP.  You get some vocabulary growth hopefully, but mostly you'll gain fluency with what you technically already know.  And fluency is hard.  It bears repeating what we already know- even native French speakers routinely continue dictation exercises at the university level because the language really is *that hard* to write correctly.

[8filltheheart]

Except, Monica, if you follow this link, http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/jgoldfield/ACTFL-CEFRcomparisons09-10.pdf college graduation goals are more along the lines of A2+/ beginning B1, not B2. B1 splits the inter-hig and adv-low level.)

 

Fwiw, colleges typically refuse to speak in terms of CEFR levels, only ACTFL levels. Dd has been clearly told that graduating beyond int-high/adv-low level is in not typical for most French majors. (And all of them require a minimum of 1semester abroad.)

 

If that is the case, it is doubtful that AP is a B1 level equivalency. (We have visited depts where the grad goal is int-mid. If AP is B1, that would mean that their graduation objective was equivalent to less than the AP exam which seems illogical even for a weak dept.)

Edited May 13, 2016 by 8FillTheHeart

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I find that level crazy low for university studies!  I mean, it's almost a joke to expect so little after possibly 6-8 years of study!!!  

 

I pulled out my TEF results from when I finished my semester abroad.  Let me note that I was a TERRIBLE French student during that semester.  I had met my eventual DH, and was way more involved in my rock climbing club than my French.  Anyway, I got B2 for written comp, C1 for oral comp, and B1 for lexique/structure.  Prior to going abroad, I had 4 years high school French and three semesters college French, followed by a 1.5 year gap in French study.

 

Anyway, I'm not doubting at all that what you are giving are the stated requirements for the universities and their French majors, but they are holding the bar VERY low, especially if a semester abroad is required.  

 

 

 

 

 

[8filltheheart]

I think it is also very difficult to convert from th CEFR levels to the ACTFL levels which is why I think most universities refuse to discuss that way.

 

For example, Dd took her Russian A2 book she finished to a Russian dept. That Russian dept told her she would have to start in 101 bc their content was so different from A levels. (Dd was completely insulted.)

 

But, adv-low is the highest graduation goal of any program we have looked into with the exception of the critical language flagships. They do have a goal of superior, but anything outside of the flagships seem to sneer at that sort of objective. (Dd has faced her share of ridicule during dept visits for stating that as her ultimate objective.)

[madteaparty]

Except, Monica, if you follow this link, http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/jgoldfield/ACTFL-CEFRcomparisons09-10.pdf college graduation goals are more along the lines of A2+/ beginning B1, not B2. B1 splits the inter-hig and adv-low level.)

 

Fwiw, colleges typically refuse to speak in terms of CEFR levels, only ACTFL levels. Dd has been clearly told that graduating beyond int-high/adv-low level is in not typical for most French majors. (And all of them require a minimum of 1semester abroad.)

 

If that is the case, it is doubtful that AP is a B1 level equivalency. (We have visited depts where the grad goal is int-mid. If AP is B1, that would mean that their graduation objective was equivalent to less than the AP exam which seems illogical even for a weak dept.)

How can this be? Our local lib arts college has "topics in French lit" as a 200 level course, conducted in French, covering Diderot, Stendhal, Sartre and everything in between. There's 300 and 400 level courses beyond that...

[8filltheheart]

How can this be? Our local lib arts college has "topics in French lit" as a 200 level course, conducted in French, covering Diderot, Stendhal, Sartre and everything in between. There's 300 and 400 level courses beyond that...

The question was about AP equivalence. I am only sharing what we have experienced after visiting 5 different universities' French and Russian depts. The max a 5 is worth is 4 semesters of intro to language credit.

 

We had one dept tell Dd they had absolutely nothing to offer her in French and she has never even taken the AP. (This was the dept with the int-med graduation objective.) This was based on her simply describing her current level of ability!

 

We have learned to not even visit depts that don't have graduate level courses bc they don't offer enough for her to study. (She was told the same thing by the Russian judges at the Russian Olympiada---look for grad level courses bc you are going to need them.)

 

Fwiw, this is the most frustrating college search we have ever had bc there is not standardization from dept to dept unlike engineering and physics.

Edited May 13, 2016 by 8FillTheHeart

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I checked my alma mater and AP is considered the equivalent of 101, 102, 201, and 202.  So, sort of the typical one year high school = 1 semester college.  

 

Here are their outcome goals for the BA in French Studies (emphasis mine):

 

Program Learning Outcomes for BA in French Studies

Students graduating from this program will: 

1. Communicate fluently in spoken and written French at an advanced level, as indicated by the ability to: understand spoken French, converse in French, critically read and translate French texts, and write in multiple genres in French.

2. Achieve the cultural literacy necessary for studying abroad or practicing internationally-based professions by demonstrating an understanding of the major social, cultural, and political stakes of the French and Francophone world, past and present.

3. Demonstrate an interdisciplinary understanding of French studies through critical investigations of French literature, art, film, and other cultural forms.

4. Understand French language and culture not as isolated geographic phenomena, but in the wider context of multicultural exchange and globalization.

5. Learn and apply various research skills, including critical thinking and reading skills, theory, and criticism, to French texts (broadly construed) in order to produce new critical insights verbally or in writing. 

 

------------

They also have an honors French track.  Maybe she should go to Rice!  :-D

[Joan in GE]

Hello everyone! I still can't resist reading discussion about this comparison....

 

As loesje mentioned, we were dealing with this problem. The language tested was different - German. And dd got a 4 on the AP exam but I'm not sure that really reflected her knowledge as there were computer problems and she ended up having to redo her oral exam after sitting alone in a room for more than an hour over lunch time while the AP people here were trying to reach the US (where it was still very early morning!).....she was emotionally exhausted and felt she hadn't done as well the second time....Bref....she tested into Goethe Niveau B1.2. in German....that's the second half of B1 level....shortly after...She had spent time in German as an au pair and everything....

 

Not sure if you can compare German to French but it is at least one indicator....

 

While she did AP French, it is impossible to compare as she was raised in a Fr speaking country.

 

By the way - OP mentioned there not being as many materials for the one vs the other....were you thinking of not as many for the AP or for the DELF ?

 

 

[Joan in GE]

 

 

But the study abroad moved me firmly into the Cs, and there I've stayed, because there's nowhere else for me to go.  :-)  I hate claiming I'm fluent, although I am by any definition.  It's just that the more you know, the more you realize you don't know.  

 

Anyway, all that to say that I don't think the actual "level" of French advances much after AP.  You get some vocabulary growth hopefully, but mostly you'll gain fluency with what you technically already know.  And fluency is hard.  It bears repeating what we already know- even native French speakers routinely continue dictation exercises at the university level because the language really is *that hard* to write correctly.

 

Recently I was trying to translate a text for dh....granted it was a somewhat technical text, but not that hard....it was so troublesome. And the same goes when he asks me to translate newspaper articles.

 

Yet I really enjoy simultaneous translating which I've done when we've had English speakers on field trips given in French for example....It seems pretty easy.

 

So I was wondering about this and realized that it's probably related to what people have mentioned in other places, that written French - written properly - is very different from spoken French. (yes, spoken French has different levels, argot, familier, etc but here I'm talking about 'courant').

 

Anyway....as Monica says, the more you know, the more you realize you don't know...whereas I can't really say that happens to nearly the same extent in English...Properly written French feels completely outside my grasp even with extensive study...

[Loesje22000]

Good to see you here Joan  :seeya:

[8filltheheart]

Monica, that really isn't any different than any other synopsis of most French depts we have visited.  When we have read descriptions like that, the dept visit has equated those levels to  ACTFL advanced-low graduation requirements.   (I am beginning to understand why they refuse to discuss CEFR levels. It has been a headache for us b/c her Russian level is CEFR.)  

 

This website shows the actual guidelines.  http://www.actfl.org/publications/guidelines-and-manuals/actfl-proficiency-guidelines-2012/french (just click on the 4 different proficiency categories across the top and each category has examples by level.  That is probably a better way of looking at it than the CEFR comparisons.

 

FWIW, for foreign language majors, those 1st 4 semesters of language often don't even count toward the degree (the equivalent of the AP).  Anyway, we have gotten the very strong impression that the AP is a very low level benchmark for entering the language dept.  

 

 

[madteaparty]

Hello everyone! I still can't resist reading discussion about this comparison....

 

As loesje mentioned, we were dealing with this problem. The language tested was different - German. And dd got a 4 on the AP exam but I'm not sure that really reflected her knowledge as there were computer problems and she ended up having to redo her oral exam after sitting alone in a room for more than an hour over lunch time while the AP people here were trying to reach the US (where it was still very early morning!).....she was emotionally exhausted and felt she hadn't done as well the second time....Bref....she tested into Goethe Niveau B1.2. in German....that's the second half of B1 level....shortly after...She had spent time in German as an au pair and everything....

 

Not sure if you can compare German to French but it is at least one indicator....

 

While she did AP French, it is impossible to compare as she was raised in a Fr speaking country.

 

By the way - OP mentioned there not being as many materials for the one vs the other....were you thinking of not as many for the AP or for the DELF ?

Thank you Joan. Besides the potter ap class, I can't find many AP materials.

DELF on the other hand, so many resources: graded readers with comprehension questions and projects built right in, and his tutor just sent over a self exam along with audiofiles and timing instructions.

I have not looked that much into the AP yet, though he will take it, but it seems there is a jump in required understanding in the essay part of the exam. It almost seems more comparable to GCSEs? I think I saw some ap materials that actually linked to GCSE prep if I recall.

[madteaparty]

Recently I was trying to translate a text for dh....granted it was a somewhat technical text, but not that hard....it was so troublesome. And the same goes when he asks me to translate newspaper articles.

 

Yet I really enjoy simultaneous translating which I've done when we've had English speakers on field trips given in French for example....It seems pretty easy.

 

So I was wondering about this and realized that it's probably related to what people have mentioned in other places, that written French - written properly - is very different from spoken French. (yes, spoken French has different levels, argot, familier, etc but here I'm talking about 'courant').

 

Anyway....as Monica says, the more you know, the more you realize you don't know...whereas I can't really say that happens to nearly the same extent in English...Properly written French feels completely outside my grasp even with extensive study...

We are discovering this. I've very recently added French writing as its own subject, outside of the regular French study....

[Joan in GE]

How can this be? Our local lib arts college has "topics in French lit" as a 200 level course, conducted in French, covering Diderot, Stendhal, Sartre and everything in between. There's 300 and 400 level courses beyond that...

 

Isn't literature analysis more like philosophy rather than learning to speak French like a native? I'm just thinking aloud here...thinking too about some of Monica's comments....as I'm frequently thinking about my French, every time someone starts speaking to me in English because they hear my accent ....There's they whole way of phrasing a thought that can be different in different languages....and so when we talk about 'levels'....it's very hard to measure in some ways - as speaking like a native is thinking linguistically like a native, not just thinking in French....if you see what I mean. I'm not a linguist so this is probably discussed much more profoundly on some kind of linguist board....

 

Here's another topic that really eludes me in French.... the use of 'irony'....a friend was saying how much irony is used in French...and how a friend of his went to Massachusetts and his 'irony' went over like a lead balloon....When our friend gave some examples ....we were like - no...that wouldn't be well accepted in the US...Another French friend, a translator, told me how much they love to play with words in French....and when I listen to their conversation, I can see an emphasis that I don't normally hear - but perhaps that's because we're more of a 'science' than a 'literature' family...

[Joan in GE]

Good to see you here Joan  :seeya:

 

I'm treating myself to a little discussion :-) - otherwise it's work, work, work :-)  :seeya:

[Loesje22000]

I have not looked that much into the AP yet, though he will take it, but it seems there is a jump in required understanding in the essay part of the exam. It almost seems more comparable to GCSEs? I think I saw some ap materials that actually linked to GCSE prep if I recall.

Maybe no help but this table links IGCSE French e.o. to CERF qualifications:

 

https://www.llas.ac.uk/resources/paper/2715 

 

(table 2)

[Loesje22000]

We are discovering this. I've very recently added French writing as its own subject, outside of the regular French study....

 

May I ask, what you use for this?

[madteaparty]

May I ask, what you use for this?

Nothing great, I'm totally winging it, and thus far it's "read a few chapters in whatever French book I assign (for which he also listens to the audio and does copy work from) and summarize those chapters for tutor, who thoroughly corrects. He then rewrites the whole thing correctly. Sometimes it's not the book but his recent vacation or experience he writes about.

[Joan in GE]

For French news - there's just been a proposition to ban homeschooling except for 

– l’exigence de soins médicaux,

– situation de handicap en attente de scolarisation dans un établissement médico-social,

– activités sportives ou artistiques,

– parents itinérants,

– Ã©loignement géographique d’un établissement scolaire.

You can see here:

http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/14/propositions/pion3704.asp

Search : domicile

Petition here:http://www.citizengo.org/fr/34417-le-retrait-du-projet-loi-ndeg-3704-du-27-avril-2016

 

Punishment being 

code pénal prévoit une peine de six mois d’emprisonnement et 7 500 euros d’amende pour les parents qui refusent d’inscrire leur enfant dans un établissement d’enseignement

Edited May 13, 2016 by Joan in GE

[Matryoshka]

The question was about AP equivalence. I am only sharing what we have experienced after visiting 5 different universities' French and Russian depts. The max a 5 is worth is 4 semesters of intro to language credit.

 

The first four years of university language is grammar-based.  The AP may or may not go beyond what a typical college offers in its first four semesters (although you'll never get credit for more than the 4 semesters).  

 

Some colleges don't even offer more than that in language, so if you've got an AP already, some schools don't offer much more (although you'd certainly hope so, if they have a major).  I have seen some schools that offer a 'major' in a language that consists of a conversation class, maybe a semester abroad and some 'culture' classes that are taught in English.  IMHO, that is pitiful.

 

I came into college already fluent in two foreign languages.  I never took a FL course lower than the 300 level.  I went to a large university that had good foreign language departments, so there was still lots to take - mostly it was literature classes.  Lots of reading and discussing literature in the FL and writing lit analysis papers in the FL.  No, the AP Language tests are not at that level, so you don't test out of 300 level classes.  I do believe the Spanish AP Literature class can get one out of one semester of college-level FL Lit, but that test is mostly taken by native speakers - I've never seen a class in it offered at a high school, and I don't think it's offered in languages other than Spanish?

 

My kids went to Sat. School where they follow the European system.  Two of them then took the AP.  I'd say the AP corresponds to the B1 level.  After that (or 4 semesters of college FL), you should be ready to start speaking, reading literature, and writing real essays in the FL.  I think without some good immersion time abroad (at least a semester, a year is better), it would be difficult to get to the C level (which is what I'd consider real fluency), but that a good FL major should require at least a semester abroad, and that should be the goal.  

 

As we've both seen, I'm sure there are schools that don't have that as a goal, but I wouldn't bother going to any of them to major in a language...

 

ETA: Meant to add, my youngest dd hates FL and seemed to almost actively avoid learning any German at Sat. School.  Finally gave up this year and let her just 'finish up' at the CC.  She is in no way ready to take the AP (she's probably still at the A2 level).  And yet she has flown through semesters 3 and 4 of German at the CC with an A.  Their standards are very low.  I'd say maaaybe A2, more likely A1.  Good thing she's not planning on continuing on taking more German courses after this - I'm just using it to check the box.  The AP is far above the level of 4 semesters at this CC.  And yet she'd get out of the exact same classes at a 4-year with the AP as she would by finishing German 4 at CC.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Matryoshka

[Joan in GE]

Thank you Joan. Besides the potter ap class, I can't find many AP materials.

DELF on the other hand, so many resources: graded readers with comprehension questions and projects built right in, and his tutor just sent over a self exam along with audiofiles and timing instructions.

I have not looked that much into the AP yet, though he will take it, but it seems there is a jump in required understanding in the essay part of the exam. It almost seems more comparable to GCSEs? I think I saw some ap materials that actually linked to GCSE prep if I recall.

 

It's true that once they made the new French AP, there aren't many books. We used the ones by Pearson - Allons au dela and AP French...have you looked at the College Board Website ? - there's much more 'cultural' information than the previous AP...

 

You're right about there being many resources for the DELF....with CD's etc...

[8filltheheart]

Not sure if this helps clarify any distinctions or not, but dd shared a video of her doing an oral recitation in Russian with a univerisity's Russian dept. The response she received was that she would be in their advanced level courses and that they couldn't understand why her tutor had her classified as only a B1 bc they thought her level should be higher. That is the first time she has had a dept state anything in terms of a CEFR reference, so that makes me believe that B levels are more associated with intermediate level college courses.