What do you *do* with the spelling words in Barton?

[PeterPan]

Ok, I'll fess up.  We're in Barton 4, with him actually reading passably well (though he doesn't actually read anything), and we entirely skipped the spelling.  So I've got the lessons, but I'm trying to get a picture in my mind of what we DO with it.  Obviously we can spell the nonsense words with tiles and then write/spell real words.  But then what?  Then make sentences?  Then do crossword puzzles and worksheets?  Then nothing and just keep going??

 

I found the games in the tutor section.  They're online, which means he's not writing.  Actually, given his labels, maybe that typing is enough?  Maybe that's why everything is typing instead of writing?  

 

I'm just trying to sort this out in my brain and I'm think I'm missing something, lol.  It should come together well, now that he's further along.  I have AAS in the closet, but it just seems tidy to go back and do the spelling lessons from Barton.  I don't see a reason to jump.  Or there is?  

 

I think I'm just really used to the SWR stuff I did with dd, where we spelled and then wrote a sentence.  Then we started doing copywork and dictation.  There was always a REASON we were doing this, somewhere it was going.  I'm trying to see how this builds for him and turns into something functional.

[OneStepAtATime]

Uh, I admit I am tired and my brain is fuzzy but I'm not getting your question.  So sorry, OhE.  I would love to discuss this with you.  I just don't think I understand your question.  Are you wondering whether to go back through earlier levels and do the spelling part?  Or...?

 

Honestly, I hear people separating out the spelling portion but I am lost as to what that actually means.  The spelling seems pretty integrated to me.  Are you saying that you skipped anything in the lesson where the student spells the words with tile and on paper?  Or you skipped the spelling rules and just did the reading rules? Or...?

[PeterPan]

Oh sorry!  There's sort of a half-way point in the lessons, where the first half is reading and the 2nd half is spelling (nonsense, then on paper).  So I skipped the spelling.  Did the reading.  And even though we read the phrases and sentences, I'm going to have the tutor go back and work on those too.  At the time he didn't have the prosody and ability to make his voice go up and down in order to DO the phrasing the way Barton says.  Now he does.  

 

I worked on this some more last night and pulled out my AAS levels.  Barton covers in one level conceptually what AAS spends a lot longer on for actual spelling.  So Barton seems to assume that if you nail the concept (sound out the CVC word, finger through the spelling, get it on paper), you can do it with any CVC word.  So with Barton you *only* spell the words in Barton, yes?  Is it ENOUGH?  Is it enough to get them actually functional and able to write a short sentence?  The addition of the sight words in level 3 would help with that.  

 

AAS has phrases (eg. last wish) beginning in lesson 11 of level 1.  They're just simple little things, 2-3 words, and she eventually, by the end, has them writing super brief sentences.  This progression of skills makes sense to me.  Because AAS spends a lot more lessons on the same conceptual level (cvc words), they are limited to simplistic sentences when they get to that point. (eg. Bob has hens. She labels this a phrase.)  Does Barton want the student to take from dictation phrases in the Barton levels?  Is there a point where Barton is transferring the skill from words to phrases?  Or is it more the assumption that the student is older, already attempting writing, and therefore the student just improves his ability at the sentences he was already writing?

 

And, duh, I can go through the pages and see if I can find that.  I think that's why it's eluding me.  The whole assumption base is different.  AAS assumes a student who writes nothing, and Barton assumes the student is already writing and is trying to *improve*.  Problem to me is, with a fledgling writer, we want them writing in ways that have MEANING.  We want them to use their new powers to do something they find engaging or useful.  I can't just say oh spell these words and never actually APPLY it.  That's nuts.  And I'm missing where the application is in Barton.  Is it there?

 

See the other problem is that you have to get through quite a bit conceptually before you're actually ABLE to write anything real. If you're writing only with AAS1 or B2 words, you don't have enough pieces to compose anything you're INTERESTED in writing. And philosophically I *like* the point Sanseri (SWR) makes about getting them spelling a variety of things quickly so that they can actually write what they're thinking.  This makes sense to me!  And in a way it seems like Barton is doing this, by focusing on the *concepts* of the rules and getting kids applying the concepts.  So then what I stumble over is whether Barton would lead to kids who make errors due to always thinking about rules rather than getting that visual memory solidified and just having it??  It doesn't seem to me like ruling your way into spelling works so well.  But maybe I'm all wet?

 

That's the philosophical stuff.  And then I *thought* I wanted things like crossword puzzles, etc.  But when you take the Barton lists from B2 and try to turn them into crosswords, it doesn't work so hot, lol.  So that's when it occurred to me that maybe I wasn't understanding her POINT, that maybe her point isn't so much about nailing high frequency words as it was about nailing the concepts.  

 

I don't know, did any of that make sense?  And you don't even want to know the rest of my confusion, lol.  We could write the spelling words, sure.  We could *type* the spelling words.  We could *tile* the spelling words.  I have no clue.  I *think* there's *some* benefit to writing the spelling words, at least once.  That's why I was thinking crosswords.  But it's so arduous for him.  I don't think we can/should just avoid handwriting completely, but it's also just hard.  So I don't know about that either.  I think that probably writing a few words is probably reasonable.  A sentence is reasonable.  I don't know.  I just think to say we're going to get out of him dictation of 4 of those short AAS sentences might be unrealistic.  I don't know.  The school for his IEP is saying keep working on it, try to get him able to answer with short answers by the end of next year.  So that would maybe 4 or 5 (I suppose) short answers on a page.  I don't know what's actually realistic.  Unfortunately, I'm not sure we know what's realistic till we TRY.  I listen to people on the board saying oh that was a waste working on handwriting all those years, wish we had gone to typing sooner.  But then if we don't TRY, then we don't know where we CAN get.  That's what the school is saying.

 

So I'm trying to figure out if I should be doing *just* the words Barton says to spell or also the AAS words.  I'm trying to figure out if we should write or type them or a combination.  I'm trying to figure out if I should be adding something pizzazzy to give the spelling/writing context (at least) or application (phrases/sentences, ability to be used elsewhere).  For instance, I could make worksheets like crosswords, cloze exercises, etc., using the words.  He has been pretty solid on his ability to spell with tiles, so I'm not really worried about that.  It's when he actually tries to get it on paper that he struggles.  So even with words that he *could* sound out accurately (grandpa was his request yesterday), he's not doing it.  So I'm trying to bridge that gap, to get him to be able to get out things, either onto paper or screen.

 

If I were being honest, I think it ought to be 20% paper, 80% screen.  I think that would serve him a lot better and frustrate him a lot less.  I think dictation onto screen using the AAS phrases and handwriting onto paper just the 10 Barton words.  So then we'd kind of get the more advanced application and the hand, sigh.  Maybe even type all of AAS.  I started typing with him and we got distracted.  But if we could get that to work, that would make more sense.  

 

And the only reason it's coming to a head is because I have this tutor coming.  I want things I can hand her.  I think AAS is too messy.  He's beyond parts of it and needs other parts, so she can't come in the middle of that.  I think the Barton lists, with their brief 10 words, make a lot more sense as something a tutor could work on twice a week, do handwritten, and actually get some progress with.  That works, to me.  So then I think we could just let her get creative and do games and things.  That would work. And then I can do the AAS words/phrases/sentences with him and do those with typing, assuming I can get some typing going.  That would work.  We used to do sand tray writing.  I guess we could also do it that way.  

 

I don't know, just trying to sort this out!

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

I don't know for your son what would actually make sense 'cause lets face it, your son and my son both are dealing with way more than just dyslexia.  Makes the whole process wonky.

 

Here is what I found with DD regarding Barton (but she started it in mid-6th):

1.  Doing the entire lesson, very slowly, and sometimes repeating a lesson, meant that eventually the reading/spelling/writing became integrated and she could apply what she had learned in her writing outside of Barton without having to actually "think" about the rules.

2.  Once she was solid on the lesson, not having to try and recall the rules but actually having those rules internalized, the spelling list "tests" I would sometimes issue were a breeze.  She usually got 100s without ever studying.

3.  The reading and spelling were parts of the same coin.  Without one, the other didn't stick as well.

4.  Using the Barton app or the real tiles for additional "fun" practice with spelling (just asking her to come up with words based on the rules we had been studying) before actually having to write things out was also helpful.

5.  Using the Spelling Success cards to play the games, then also sometimes come up with our own sentences based on those cards, adding in the little words to make them into actual sentences, then "saving" those special sentences by her copying them down actually helped, too.

6.  Sometimes going back and reviewing a previous lesson using the extra words, then playing a word game with those words, helped solidify things.

7.  Using the Barton suggestions for learning site words, DD was able to move quickly through the site word lists and is a Level ahead (she would be further but I haven't bought Level 7 yet).  This is not because site words are easy for her.  They were the bane of her existence in school and it makes me sick how many YEARS of her life we wasted trying to memorize all those stupid spelling lists.  However, she is highly visual, so I'm sure moving to the Barton very visually heavy process is part of the reason she is now so successful.  Only working on 3 words at a time until mastery has also helped, as opposed to 25 words every week, which was a break neck, overwhelming, unsustainable speed for DD.  This same process has not been nearly as successful for DS, but after his vision eval I strongly suspect that is a big part of the problem.

 

There are so many differences between DD and DS, and some of what your son is dealing with my son is dealing with, too.  Makes it hard to know if any of what I did with DD would help your son.  I know there have been huge differences in functionality with Barton between my two kids.  DD does not have dysgraphia, she was older when she started the program, she is not fighting the plethora of deficits and strengths that her brother has (and yes some of his strengths can actually be a hindrance at times, too) and she had had the same excellent Language Arts teacher from 2nd through 5th (something DS did not have).  She might not have been able to read much or write much when she left school but she had had a lot of targeted exposure to print and reading material with a very loving, supportive, knowledgeable instructor.

 

As far as philosophies go, I think Barton sees reading/spelling as integrated, like two parts of the same coin.  In doing 5 levels now, all the way through, that is what it appears to me to be.  As with everything else, though, kids are frequently asynchronous, so for some that approach may not work at all.

[OneStepAtATime]

Hey, in Level 2, did you do the part where the student brainstorms new words from parts of words?  DD LOVED that.  Like that was her favorite part of the lesson.  It inspired her to want to write out the words she had created.  No idea if that helps at all but I was curious.

[Roseto27]

And the only reason it's coming to a head is because I have this tutor coming. I want things I can hand her. I think AAS is too messy. He's beyond parts of it and needs other parts, so she can't come in the middle of that. I think the Barton lists, with their brief 10 words, make a lot more sense as something a tutor could work on twice a week, do handwritten, and actually get some progress with. That works, to me. So then I think we could just let her get creative and do games and things. That would work. And then I can do the AAS words/phrases/sentences with...

I don't have any experience with barton or AAS and clicked on this because I'm curious about them for my middle son. That said, I wanted to highlight the above. I would encourage you to step back and look at which of these two programs meet your son's needs rather than those of your tutor. Which program will address his needs best? Worry about how to make it accessible to the tutor once you've answered that question.

[PeterPan]

Onestep, that was INCREDIBLY helpful!!  You made some things click for me.  You're right, I haven't gotten the app yet.  We can solve that.  Every time I use the tiles I wish I had bought the app, lol.

 

Roseto27, I think in my gut the tidy approach of Barton makes more sense for him.  Barton has been golden for him, and I don't want to mess that up.  I think you're right that deep down I know that.  This tutor is an ABA tutor, btw, not actually there so much for the academics.  The academics are just a foil for working on behavior.  So I'm using the opportunity to get done some things that maybe I'm not so hot at or bringing so much energy to.  And since she's a college student, I can't really plan on her being able to do more than the obvious stuff.  I think she'll bring fun to it, but there are limits to what she can do.  And she'll only have one hour a week to plan, meaning it all has to go pretty snappily.  But you're right that if I thought AAS was better for him I could help her do that, definitely.  I just like the tidiness of Barton better.  And OneStep's observation about the integration, about it getting the rules to CLICK and become automatic makes a lot of sense to me.  

 

OneStep, I did NOT see that, or if I did I've forgotten!  I'll have to go back and look.  I like Barton's games (and Ronit Bird's), because they tend to be sort of witty and engage the cognitive, rather than just working on memorizing the letters.  That's fun that your dd enjoyed them, and I agree that engaging him on that level will pique his interest too.  Now I'll have to go find that!  :)

[PeterPan]

Hold it, Spelling Success, what is this?  I'm googling it and it says it's a book on amazon.  Is that the right thing?

 

Oh, it's this!  http://www.spellingsuccess.com

Edited May 1, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[OneStepAtATime]

Hold it, Spelling Success, what is this?  I'm googling it and it says it's a book on amazon.  Is that the right thing?

 

Oh, it's this!  http://www.spellingsuccess.com

Yep.  Some of the card games are more helpful than others, but the kids have both enjoyed playing them, they have helped reinforce lessons, and are great as a default if a lesson is going south or I know we are just too tired to tackle a full lesson that day.  Also, I use them for keeping things fresh while I work on prepping the next Level or while we take a brief break from full blown lessons.

[OneStepAtATime]

Hey, for typing have you looked at Touch Type Read and Spell?  I know you were using something else but TTRS has actually been helpful here in emphasizing the lessons in Barton.  It isn't nearly as fun as Type to Learn 4 but I think it has been more effective for not just typing but helping with reading/spelling because it pairs well with Barton and how Barton introduces words.

[PeterPan]

Thanks!  I started looking through the Spelling Success games, and that's how it seemed to me too, that right now some are more useful to us than others, even within the level.  

 

Yes, we tried typing with a different program (Talking Fingers).  I like TF, but I think he was just a bit young or something.  Now that things are changing, I'm thinking we need to get typing back into the rotation.  Problem is, I'm very definite about him using Dvorak, which means the keyboard on the screen doesn't match what he's using, sigh.  But that's my plan, to focus on it this summer.  I think it's time.  

 

That TTRS is $$$, wow!  I see what you're saying, that it blends well with Barton.  Interesting!!  It's the $150 a year I'm stumbling over.

[OneStepAtATime]

Thanks!  I started looking through the Spelling Success games, and that's how it seemed to me too, that right now some are more useful to us than others, even within the level.  

 

Yes, we tried typing with a different program (Talking Fingers).  I like TF, but I think he was just a bit young or something.  Now that things are changing, I'm thinking we need to get typing back into the rotation.  Problem is, I'm very definite about him using Dvorak, which means the keyboard on the screen doesn't match what he's using, sigh.  But that's my plan, to focus on it this summer.  I think it's time.  

 

That TTRS is $$$, wow!  I see what you're saying, that it blends well with Barton.  Interesting!!  It's the $150 a year I'm stumbling over.

Did you see what it is through Homeschool Buyer's Coop?  I got mine for waaaaaay cheaper than $150.  The keyboard would definitely be an issue, though.

Edited May 1, 2016 by OneStepAtATime

[frogger]

The spelling success games are fabulous especially for review. 

 

 

I think OneStep covered just about everything but I think I saw a question that may not have been answered but I might have just missed it trying to read on the phone.

 

Yes, Barton gets to writing whole sentences later in the program. I believe level three. It takes us awhile to get through levels and then I can't exactly remember each level.  Your children can also write silly sentences using the phrases provided or just make them up without writing them. I think the whole concept of breaking the sentence down into phrases was key to making writing sentences manageable for one of my children. Actually, for reading with a little understanding too.  

 

You mentioned writing the words out was much more difficult for your child.  Some ideas for that is to just do a few written words but make sure you do a few every time. I have one child that really really hates the handwriting part so we just do a few and when he got to sentences I would only have him do one at a time. So he would write one story then we would do a reading section or a game and if there was time he might write one more but I also waited to introduce writing whole sentences until  handwriting was easier for him. If it is taking a lot of concentration just to make a letter than yes, a sentence will feel impossible. 

 

If you feel the handwriting is overwhelming for just words also you could just take a scratch paper and do the same steps of saying the word, having him repeat it but then write all but one of the letters for him. Then he could fill in the missing sound. Or if it is easier for him just give him a sheet with words and blank spaces and you just tell him the word and he fills in the missing letter. He would still be getting the spelling practice without writing the whole word. Then you could move to writing the whole word.  

 

 

[PeterPan]

Frogger, I like those ideas, thanks!!  :)  And yes, I've got level 3.  I just haven't looked through the spelling because I was skipping it.  That's a good point that I could go look at it, duh, lol.  Barton just gets very mature very fast.  But we'll work it out.

 

Those ideas for making little worksheets or the effect of worksheets are fun!  I was thinking crossword puzzles for that same reason.

[PeterPan]

Ok, I spent some time today going through Barton 3 and 4, and you're right that I had missed the progression!  It's very wow.  So yes, that makes me feel much more comfortable about Barton's sequence for spelling, now that I see where it's going.  

[kbutton]

I think you are maybe overthinking this a bit. Not to sound harsh because it's not a criticism of you or your thinking--I think your concerns are valid, real, and well thought out. I just think you are maybe putting the cart before the horse just a bit (more on that later).

 

Here are my thoughts on this:

• You have a child that has his own agenda, so by extrapolation, he's not necessarily going to be giving consistent data on what he can and can't do because he's not super-inclined to write if he could be doing something else, correct? I am trying to state this as a fact without any judgment because it's just how things are, not something that is a reflection on you or him. Dysgraphia outside of an OT label is a subjective diagnosis. He's a kid with a lot of confounding variables. I would not read too much into handwriting itself attached to spelling at this point. You have too many peaks and valleys in measurable data and diagnoses to combine that with handwriting data right now. (More on that later.) Work on the stuff you know to be a problem, and try to separate that out from the "might be a problem."
• You don't have a dysgraphia diagnosis yet, right? (Maybe you do, and I don't remember that.) I have two kids with dysgraphia, but neither of them have the basically can't write at all kind. They have difficulties with the process, and neither of them present the same way. NONE of the time I've spent with them on writing has been wasted. NONE. I would argue that the time my older son spent in school learning ball and stick writing was, but that's another story. :-)
• I can't speak to Barton or AAS with authority, nor can I speak to dyslexia.
• I can tell you that some of this is the autism. It's not all dyslexia or handwriting troubles. Any time you are using more than one skill at a time, autism is going to interfere. You learn a skill in isolation, and then you practice in concert with other skills in whatever sized pieces your child can handle. Integrated, streamlined, efficient are not words to bring into the conversation. Philosophy of how the dyslexic brain works is fine, but you must make it bow to the "Kids on the spectrum have trouble generalizing" knowledge before you get too involved with the how and make big plans. (I think the cart is dyslexia, and the horse is autism.) For instance, my son is almost 12. He's been writing sentences since Kindergarten. He can diagram compound complex sentences and identify gerunds. It's still a crap shoot whether or not he can properly capitalize, spell, and punctuate a sentence he generates. He has all of the requisite skills, but he literally has to pair each skill with each of the other skills in tiny increments at a time until they are automatic. So, you learn skill A, then skill b. Then you make them play nicely. Then you learn skill c. Then you make it play nicely with A, and then with B, and then with A and B at the same time. And then it goes on. 
• I think you are asking him to put too many skills together to draw a conclusion about his handwriting. You have the problem with generalization (autism), and the added whammy of dyslexia. 
• Once he's started to generalize things, you might see that process accelerate in some places and bog down in others. This is typical.
• On the basis of everything I just said, I would not assume that AAS is going to be a waste if he already is past some of it. On the contrary, it might be eye-opening. If it is actually too easy, it might be just the ticket to get the writing going because you are separating the spelling from the handwriting.
• Not all kids feel a need to express themselves on paper or in words. They just don't. I have one kid who couldn't care less about writing, and it won't do anything for his writing to be able to spell more (the ASD kiddo). I have one that will write when the inspiration strikes whether he can spell for it or not. He doesn't think, "I won't write because I can't spell it correctly." I think (unless spelling is made out to be a big deal or you have a major perfectionist) that most kids will ask how to spell something or just write it and assume you'll be able to figure it out anyway. (We have no dyslexia, but neither child has been harmed by invented spelling for their own purposes or by using "too easy" curriculum to reinforce spelling.) 
• I would teach typing in addition to but not in place of writing until you really know how much of this is ASD and problems with generalization (or interest). 
• I think that dictating to software is okay when you want something quality to come out. I do think there are times that we send the message to our kids that their best is not good enough if they can't use technology and make it beautiful and perfect. Or, we can send the message that everything should be easy, and if it's not, we should toss it and use technology. I don't think that advocating for our kids to have technology supports is wrong AT ALL. I do think we have to be careful that we explain why we're doing it. We shouldn't take it for granted. There is a lot of room in between my grandfather being a lefty forced to do things right-handed and my son not doing anything without technology. :-) 
• On the autism and generalization thing--my son carries his spelling and other mistakes into typing as well. He has to go back and fix them. Generalization is a serious and persistent problem that tech alone can't fix, and he's a pretty good typist.

Okay, that's all I've got.

[PeterPan]

Kbutton, that's a lot to think about!  

 

 

NONE of the time I've spent with them on writing has been wasted. NONE.

 

This part is especially interesting to me.  

 

Your observation about the effect of EF and lack of generalizing is interesting.  I think that's a point well-taken that Barton's approach assumes generalization.  I think that had been part of my unspoken concern, that I can't assume a rule learned in one context translates over to a new word in another context.  But I guess we just have to see how it goes.  

 

I've had sort of a very strong sense of "not ready" from him, and I haven't pushed that.  I start with the assumption that he has valuable things inside to say and that I want him to come out of this enjoying writing.  Therefore, writing at all costs and making it torturous isn't on the list, on the docket, on the plan.  Better to do it inadequately but pleasantly than to kill his enjoyment of the process.  I think it's reasonable for him to want a context, a reason why he wants to write things.  Most tutorial programs don't give a rip about that either.  He enjoys novelty, so I just don't see the point of doing it the most mundane way.

 

I don't take it as a compliance issue.  I've consistently had the "this is not working, this is not right, it should not take 40 minutes to write 5 words" kind of feeling with him, and the ps psych validated that.  I think compliance can enter into it, but it's hard for him, wicked hard, even when he's trying to be compliant.

 

I think that middle ground, how we use tech but use it appropriately, is what I've been sorting out.  I think that's a GOOD POINT that the inadvertent consequence of too much tech too soon would be too imply that everything should be easy, that if it's not easy something is going wrong.  I think that's really seriously a good point.  I just didn't want to miss something and hurt him or harm him or leave him going "Oh my lands, my mean mother..."  (mean as insensitive, not having appropriate expectations)  So I think that is sorting out in my mind now.  I just think that's a really good point that we don't want to communicate that something is going wrong if it's hard or that it's not worth trying.

 

Then, how far do you go with accepting work that is getting it done vs. holding out for letter formation, etc.?  At this age, are you still wanting both?  It slows it down, oy.  If he were in school, seems to me he'd have times when he writes with a focus on the strokes and times when the expectation would be just more keep it legible, as long as it's legible it's good enough.  Any thought on that?  Because if this writing for spelling is not handwriting, then we could conceivably have different expectations.

 

He has some interest in getting things on paper.  He makes little lists.  Yesterday he cut hearts and wrote Love (name) on them.  It was a little odd, because I think he meant "I love you Grandpa" and so on, but instead he wrote "Love Grandpa" LOL  I have no clue.  But he made like 4 of these, which means to me getting his thoughts out in writing is important to him!

[PeterPan]

Adding, that's a good point about how much the autism is affecting this.  I think you're prescient on that and I probably don't understand enough yet to realize it, sigh.  Barton definitely is not putting in steps for that in her materials.  I think it's more like wing it.  I like your illustration of the autism horse driving the SLD cart.  That definitely works.

 

[kbutton]

Adding, that's a good point about how much the autism is affecting this.  I think you're prescient on that and I probably don't understand enough yet to realize it, sigh.  Barton definitely is not putting in steps for that in her materials.  I think it's more like wing it.  I like your illustration of the autism horse driving the SLD cart.  That definitely works.

Yay! I was hoping I was pretty clear. I would also be cautious about calling generalization and EF the same thing. They are related, but they are not the same. 

[kbutton]

Kbutton, that's a lot to think about!  

 

 

 

This part is especially interesting to me.  

 

Your observation about the effect of EF and lack of generalizing is interesting.  I think that's a point well-taken that Barton's approach assumes generalization.  I think that had been part of my unspoken concern, that I can't assume a rule learned in one context translates over to a new word in another context.  But I guess we just have to see how it goes.  I would consider maybe making some checklists to track this. Not to enforce something, but to not lose the big picture. It would also give you data--generalization falls under behavior to some extent. It would also help you see areas where maybe generalization happens more easily and where he gets hung up to apply to future situations. Montessori preschools have checklists where they stealthily observe kids' skills across contexts and gently guide kids toward activities to cover all the ground that needs to be covered. I think public schools are moving toward goals and formative assessments in current pedagogy. I could be equating ideas that are not completely the same (I sometimes overgeneralize in explaining things when I see two ideas that strike me as two sides of the same coin.)

 

I've had sort of a very strong sense of "not ready" from him, and I haven't pushed that.  I start with the assumption that he has valuable things inside to say and that I want him to come out of this enjoying writing.  Therefore, writing at all costs and making it torturous isn't on the list, on the docket, on the plan.  Better to do it inadequately but pleasantly than to kill his enjoyment of the process. Agreed.  I think it's reasonable for him to want a context, a reason why he wants to write things.  Most tutorial programs don't give a rip about that either.  He enjoys novelty, so I just don't see the point of doing it the most mundane way. I have been surprised over and over at what is and is not mundane for my kids. There are things they like to do that make me wants to poke my eyes out, lol! Sometimes mundane builds confidence and makes them feel competent. I am not trying to argue but to offer the idea that you and he might not assess things the same way. It's worth trying things you aren't sure will work. I do still shy away from things I don't understand until I can see them demonstrated, but I'm getting more bold and adventurous. Also, kids will sometimes act like something is mundane because they are scared of failing, not because it isn't appropriate and actually fun. I can't tell you how many times I've had to drag my son through something only to have him LOVE IT on the flip side. Story of our lives. 

 

I don't take it as a compliance issue.  I've consistently had the "this is not working, this is not right, it should not take 40 minutes to write 5 words" kind of feeling with him, and the ps psych validated that.  I think compliance can enter into it, but it's hard for him, wicked hard, even when he's trying to be compliant. Agreed. Compliance is not so much what I was going for as a motivation and interest coinciding with the idea that "you need this skill." It's not nearly so cut and dry as compliance!!! I would want to get a few more things settled before slicing off the handwriting gig, but you might still end up back in this exact same spot anyway and then need to proceed with another plan. 

 

I think that middle ground, how we use tech but use it appropriately, is what I've been sorting out.  I think that's a GOOD POINT that the inadvertent consequence of too much tech too soon would be too imply that everything should be easy, that if it's not easy something is going wrong.  I think that's really seriously a good point.  I just didn't want to miss something and hurt him or harm him or leave him going "Oh my lands, my mean mother..."  (mean as insensitive, not having appropriate expectations)  So I think that is sorting out in my mind now.  I just think that's a really good point that we don't want to communicate that something is going wrong if it's hard or that it's not worth trying. You won't be the mean mother. You are lightyears  ahead in being willing to accept what your children needs vs. what "should" be typical. You will not wait too long, I don't think. And if you do, you will do so kindly and respectfully.

 

Then, how far do you go with accepting work that is getting it done vs. holding out for letter formation, etc.?  At this age, are you still wanting both?  It slows it down, oy.  If he were in school, seems to me he'd have times when he writes with a focus on the strokes and times when the expectation would be just more keep it legible, as long as it's legible it's good enough. Absolutely.  Any thought on that?  Because if this writing for spelling is not handwriting, then we could conceivably have different expectations. Yes, you split it apart. They are not the same. I would do some writing with spelling just to connect it in his brain that we spell when we write, but handwriting is handwriting and spelling is spelling. That is why I like the idea of tiles, sand letters, writing on a whiteboard (if that is easier for him), etc. and then maybe choosing just a few of those words to put to paper after they've been made will tiles and can be copied. Also, if copying is an issue, look at ATNR and STNR. Night and day difference for my younger one with handwriting and copying!!!

 

He has some interest in getting things on paper.  He makes little lists.  Yesterday he cut hearts and wrote Love (name) on them.  It was a little odd, because I think he meant "I love you Grandpa" and so on, but instead he wrote "Love Grandpa" LOL  I have no clue.  But he made like 4 of these, which means to me getting his thoughts out in writing is important to him! That's awesome. I would encourage that without worrying about spelling or handwriting. He will work on handwriting and spelling in those instances as it occurs to him that it matters. Then you can assist gently without worrying about it. If he wants to know how to spell Grandpa, but doesn't ask you about Love, then you help him spell Grandpa, and ignore Love spelled wrong. If you can't read any of it, you ask him to tell you about it or ask him to read it to you (and try not to let your eyes bug out, lol!). It's like acknowledging their speech when they are little (again, erase the apraxia part of this and go with me). You respond to the babbling. When real words or sort of real words come out, you talk back to them. You repeat what they say in an appropriate way..."You want a banana? I can get you a banana" even if banana sounds like ba-ba. If you know what they mean, you go with it. It's reinforcing.

 

Hope that makes sense. Again, I would not be saying a lot of this if we were talking dyslexia only or talking about an older kid. 

[OneStepAtATime]

Ok, I spent some time today going through Barton 3 and 4, and you're right that I had missed the progression!  It's very wow.  So yes, that makes me feel much more comfortable about Barton's sequence for spelling, now that I see where it's going.  

There really is a very logical progression, and a wonderful separation then interweaving of reading and spelling that I honestly love about Barton.

 

I agree with kbutton, though, that there may be a cart horse thing going on and why I was also saying your situation with your DS and my situation with my DS may not tag with a typical dyslexic student regarding how to function in Barton or any other program.  Makes it awfully hard to know what to do...

[OneStepAtATime]

May I say how much I love that you ask all these questions and open up discussion regarding this stuff.  We are all trying to find a path through a very complicated forest.  Discussion helps me so much to evaluate what we are doing vs. what someone else says we should be doing, KWIM?  :)

[MistyMountain]

With my ds whose skills with handwriting definitely developed late. He took a longtime to get a dominant hand, he had an immature grasp and he did not use his arm for stabilization. When he finally started writing it was slow, unsteady and sloppy but we worked on formation and corrected really bad formation or backwards writing. At school he had to do a lot of writing. He was very slow, sloppy and he did not care for the practice but he did it. He did have times where they worked on formation and writing where they just wrote but if he was really off with how he formed a letter the teacher would draw a little diagram and have him rewrite that letter a few times. Even though it was hard for him and it was a weakness it was good for him to practice it a lot and I am seeing it pay off. The more you practice the more automatic something comes and eventually you will improve and get faster even if it will always be something that is more difficult for them then others and a weakness.

[OneStepAtATime]

With my ds whose skills with handwriting definitely developed late. He took a longtime to get a dominant hand, he had an immature grasp and he did not use his arm for stabilization. When he finally started writing it was slow, unsteady and sloppy but we worked on formation and corrected really bad formation or backwards writing. At school he had to do a lot of writing. He was very slow, sloppy and he did not care for the practice but he did it. He did have times where they worked on formation and writing where they just wrote but if he was really off with how he formed a letter the teacher would draw a little diagram and have him rewrite that letter a few times. Even though it was hard for him and it was a weakness it was good for him to practice it a lot and I am seeing it pay off. The more you practice the more automatic something comes and eventually you will improve and get faster even if it will always be something that is more difficult for them then others and a weakness.

I agree up to a point.  I think this also depends, though, on the underlying causes for the dysgraphia (or rather, the challenges with handwriting) as well as the severity.  For some, all that practice very much can help.  Absolutely.  For others?  The time spent trying to improve handwriting can be demoralizing and utterly useless and might be time better spent on other things.  I realize it is hard to know ahead of time which scenario may be true for any particular child.  Still, I felt I had to mention that lots of extra handwriting practice isn't always the best option across the board for all kids.  

 

As an example, my nephew's handwriting never improved.  He went to public school, had a dysgraphia diagnosis so he had additional hand writing practice at school, and also had targeted handwriting instruction from his mother (who was a teacher) so it wasn't lack of practice.  It never improved.  Not one iota.  His handwriting is just as illegible today as it was when he was 5.  Finally, in mid-High School, they allowed him to type in the classroom.  Before they finally allowed him to type he was at the point he was ready to drop out.  He was utterly miserable and hated school.  He was gifted but his handwriting kept him from reaching his true potential and school was a nightmare.  Now?  He types nearly everything, is in college and has a 4.0.  He is thriving.  Poor handwriting wasn't what was slowing him down.  Unrealistic expectations and a determination by his teachers to tie handwriting to academic functionality were what was slowing him down.

[PeterPan]

Kbutton, I think it will be obvious when it's not generalizing, because the skill won't be there in multiple contexts and he'll be back to not knowing it.  It happened with numbers, so it's totally reasonable to anticipate it could happen with spelling as well.  But I'm not so worried about particular words as whether the *concept* is still there and able to be pulled up.  And I think we'll see it and know.

 

Hmm, that's a good point on the mundane!  The book I'm reading now points out how much we subtly accommodate without even realizing it.  I think that's part of it, that novelty improves compliance with him, so I tend to be constantly frantic to be novel, engaging, etc.  And that can be really good, but reality is with enough supports he can do something a little mundane/boring too.  Yes, I found a lined whiteboard in my stash last night.

 

MM and Onestep, I appreciate the balance there.  

Edited May 2, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[MistyMountain]

I agree up to a point. I think this also depends, though, on the underlying causes for the dysgraphia (or rather, the challenges with handwriting) as well as the severity. For some, all that practice very much can help. Absolutely. For others? The time spent trying to improve handwriting can be demoralizing and utterly useless and might be time better spent on other things. I realize it is hard to know ahead of time which scenario may be true for any particular child. Still, I felt I had to mention that lots of extra handwriting practice isn't always the best option across the board for all kids.

 

As an example, my nephew's handwriting never improved. He went to public school, had a dysgraphia diagnosis so he had additional hand writing practice at school, and also had targeted handwriting instruction from his mother (who was a teacher) so it wasn't lack of practice. It never improved. Not one iota. His handwriting is just as illegible today as it was when he was 5. Finally, in mid-High School, they allowed him to type in the classroom. Before they finally allowed him to type he was at the point he was ready to drop out. He was utterly miserable and hated school. He was gifted but his handwriting kept him from reaching his true potential and school was a nightmare. Now? He types nearly everything, is in college and has a 4.0. He is thriving. Poor handwriting wasn't what was slowing him down. Unrealistic expectations and a determination by his teachers to tie handwriting to academic functionality were what was slowing him down.

Oh I would not want it to get to the point where they are ready to drop out over it. Not every kid will have the same outcomes. I am glad I spent the time on sandpaper letters, chalkboard writing, mazes, theraputty, etc then letter formation and writing. I will try with the next child down the line who has that struggle plus a motor planning issue. Eventually it could be time to say enough is enough but I do want to at least try to get some functionality with writing and drawing and that did mean a lot of practice for ds. The hard part is that you do not know ahead of time what the outcome will be. They definitely should not let it hold a kid back and stinks when that happens.

[PeterPan]

It's interesting that you mention drawing!  I would have assumed they were linked, but ds' is doing reasonably well (relative to himself) with drawing!  Now it looks pretty rudimentary, like cave drawings, lol., but he actually does it on his own.  He drew hearts for some cards to send people.  He drew some kind of machinery (again, combos of squares and circles, nothing fancy) and cut them out.  It's nothing like my dd was doing at this age (realistic sketching), but it's actual pen to paper, of his own volition, to make something important to him.  To me they're precious and I'm saving them!   :)

 

So I'm like you, sort of in the middle, not knowing how it will turn out but feeling like we ought to at least continue to try.  Happily, this gets dumped on the tutor.  Did I mention how psyched I am about that?   :lol: 

 

Oh, and fwiw, his IEP has him doing dramatically reduced amounts of writing.  So even though they didn't put in a scribe, if he were in school the goal would be to be able to answer a question with a short answer (short sentence) in writing by the end of next year (2nd grade). I assume 2nd graders are writing paragraphs by hand at that point or some sort of compositions.  And honestly, even if someone really is not gonna get functional like filling up a whole PAGE, probably they're going to want to be able to write a LITTLE something.  So our version of "keep working on it" is pretty muted.  

 

Edited May 2, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[OneStepAtATime]

Side note related to craftiness and dysgraphia: what is interesting with DS is that he loved building with Legos and was good at it. DH assumed that if he could build with Legos his eye hand coordination must be just fine so why the issues with handwriting? Interestingly, the COVD and I discussed this. I mentioned that DS would only build with Legos if he could lay out all the types of pieces in very organized rows and he would follow the picture instructions without any variation. She suggested that part of the reason for that might be his eye sight issues. It gave him the ability to actually construct something that would look right. Doing it randomly he might not be able to judge well enough how things should go.

 

With regard to drawing, that's awesome that your son likes to draw, OhE. Very cool.

 

I think cutting out handwriting altogether is definitely detrimental, by the way, at least in most instances. There are times in real life when you are going to be expected to write something out by hand, either to fill in a form or erite down a number or whatever. Without at least some consistent practice the muscles and the hand/brain connection get even weaker.

[Storygirl]

Elizabeth, I'm just wondering. When you say that his writing is labored, and that it takes him a very long time to write a short sentence, do you think his trouble is with

1) motor skills

2) not yet knowing how to form the letters automatically, so it takes a long time to figure out how to do each stroke (but not directly an issue with motor skills) or

3) not knowing how to spell things but trying to spell them correctly, so that it takes a long time to get the words down???

 

I'm asking because DS12 with dysgraphia had trouble with handwriting and had trouble with 1 and 2. DD10 with dyslexia (and now also SLD in written expression) had trouble with 3.

 

Now in fourth grade, DD10 doesn't let her trouble with spelling slow her down in her writing. She just uses creative spelling. Some of her words are really undecipherable. In her IEP, an accommodation is that she will not be penalized with grading for misspellings unless the assignment is assessing spelling. If she has a writing assignment where spelling is part of the grade, the teacher is to identify the misspelled words for her, so that she has a chance to correct them before being graded (because she cannot spot the misspelled words herself).

 

Interestingly, for DD10, her handwriting was beautiful when she was learning to write her letters. She could have won a handwriting award. Now in fourth grade, her handwriting is a messy scrawl. Her attention while writing has shifted away from drawing the letters in a lovely way and toward actually communicating. It's been an interesting change.

 

Back to my 1-2-3 question for you: I think if you pinpoint what it is that is causing the difficulty with writing for your son, it can help you decide how to move forward and what to emphasize in his writing practice time. You can then work around the troublesome part while still advancing the other skills (for example, do the spelling work with tiles, and for all handwriting practice provide him with a written model just to copy, so that he doesn't have to spell anything at the same time that he is practicing handwriting).

 

I haven't used Barton and gave up on AAS within a few weeks, so I can't help you with advice about those programs.

 

I do think there is merit in practicing pencil-to-paper skills, even if doing things electronically will end up being the main accommodation over time. I think that when something is hard, we need more practice at it, not less. At the same time, we have to find ways to do it without generating a level of frustration that becomes a roadblock.

 

I have a friend whose sixth grader just had an IEP update (she has SLD reading among other issues, probably undiagnosed dyslexia). The parents asked when they could stop putting spelling goals into the IEP and just let her type things with spellcheck instead. The school said they would keep spelling goals in the IEP until high school; that in middle school, they wanted to keep working on improving her skills, even if the progress was minimal. She does do a lot of her work on the computer, but they want her to continue to work on the pencil-to-paper skills as well.

 

 

[PeterPan]

Story, that's interesting!  Yes, the school had commented on how he seemed to do better with a model.  Yes, the school said SLD writing.  Yes, it's more like 1/2 with your ds plus some 3.  But I guess let's roll with it and see what happens.  At this point, I'm giving it to the ABA tutor, who is saying she can come 3 days instead of 2, and I am ABSOLVED of it.  Done, wash my hands. Did we mention the cost of the tutoring will be worth it if just for that?   :D

 

And I think you're right.  I think they'll probably do like you're saying it and keep the weak things in there at some level and not just write it off.  And who knows, maybe a fresh face, fresh energy, things come together?  I know he's doing things now he couldn't do a year ago.  So we'll just see.  

 

Well the tutor liked our stuff and seemed to have a pretty good sense of what she could get done and how it was going to roll.  Ds cut out a heart and gave it to her, so I'm thinking he likes her!   :lol:

Edited May 2, 2016 by OhElizabeth