"Blue Lives Matter"

[poppy]

I keep seeing this popping up.   For the life of me, I do not understand why people who want to show support of police would select such a mocking motto.    Every time I see it I picture police thumbing their noses and blowing raspberries at "Black Lives Matter" activist.   

 

Even if you don't care for "Black Lives Matter", I think it's nasty. 

 

It would be like ... Like co-opting the Autism Awareness symbol and changing it into a "Normal Kids Matter too".

 

Or I guess it's like the people who take the Jesus fish symbol, put feet on it and put the word "Darwin" inside.  Except, the stakes seem lower there.  A Darwin fish is a bit of humor (some may say mean humor).  "Blue Lives Matter" is earnest.

 

Am I oversensitive?

[Carol in Cal.]

I am ambivalent about it myself.

 

I am extremely sympathetic to the Black Lives Matter crusade.  Not a fan of All Lives Matter for the reasons that you state.

 

However, in the last couple of years there has been a significant spate of execution style killings of police officers--at gas stations, eating fast food, just parked somewhere.  Although it is not directly advocated by BLM, my sense is that it is precipitated by BLM, and it's not right.  So I have some sympathy to the usage as Blue Lives Matter.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Carol in Cal.

[marbel]

I don't know... I guess if I was a police officer or had one in my family (close friend, etc), I might be frustrated by another slogan that seemed to elevate a group's status over others.

 

"Austism Awareness" is not the same, to me.  It's bringing awareness, not saying or implying that autistic people are more important than others.
 

As for the Christian fish symbol, I don't think the Darwin symbol is funny.  Why do you think it's not in earnest whereas "blue lives matter" is? 

 

I'm just musing, not arguing.  I'm interested in what others have to say.   I'm not black, or a cop.  I do get the reason for "black lives matter." 

[eternalsummer]

I think probably they feel like the BLM movement pretty directly targets police (sometimes physically, but at least in ideology).  So when they hear "black lives matter," what they hear (maybe, I am not a police officer) is "we are not grateful for the dangerous and difficult work you do in our communities and we have ill will towards you."  For them, the BLM movement is aggressive (and in many ways misguided/incorrect), so to turn it on its head and say "blue lives matter" *is* intended as an affront, or at least a direct repudiation, of something they consider both wrong and dangerous.

[eternalsummer]

I think it is difficult sometimes to see something from the outside.

 

So you seem to at least mostly agree with the premise of the BLM movement.  Can you consider how you would feel about it if you didn't agree with it, or sympathize with it?

[Carol in Cal.]

PS  I agree that the Darwin fish is not funny--rather, it's mocking; a distinction that is fading in our culture, to our detriment.

[SparklyUnicorn]

PS  I agree that the Darwin fish is not funny--rather, it's mocking; a distinction that is fading in our culture, to our detriment.

 

What do you mean with "a distinction that is fading in our culture"?  What distinction?

[eternalsummer]

Yes, when I was younger (and an atheist) I thought the Darwin thing was clever at least.

 

This is because I had no attachment to the fish symbol (still don't, of course, but am older and more considerate now).  I had been raised without religion so it meant nothing to me personally; I only saw the Darwin side of the issue.

[Carrie12345]

I don't know... I guess if I was a police officer or had one in my family (close friend, etc), I might be frustrated by another slogan that seemed to elevate a group's status over others.

 

"Austism Awareness" is not the same, to me.  It's bringing awareness, not saying or implying that autistic people are more important than others.

 

As for the Christian fish symbol, I don't think the Darwin symbol is funny.  Why do you think it's not in earnest whereas "blue lives matter" is? 

 

I'm just musing, not arguing.  I'm interested in what others have to say.   I'm not black, or a cop.  I do get the reason for "black lives matter." 

 

This is what confuses me most.  How is saying "Black lives matter" elevating anyone over another when it's a perfectly clear (to me) statement that black lives shouldn't be treated as trash?  

 

There seems to be this idea that giving darker skin equal weight takes away from lighter skin somehow, and that's just... well, I can't think of board approved words for that.

[Carol in Cal.]

What do you mean with "a distinction that is fading in our culture"?  What distinction?

I mean the distinction between funny and mocking.

[poppy]

I think it is difficult sometimes to see something from the outside.

 

So you seem to at least mostly agree with the premise of the BLM movement.  Can you consider how you would feel about it if you didn't agree with it, or sympathize with it?

 

I do sympathize with BLM.   But I do  also sympathize with the idea of a movement to support police. Who I know feel beleaguered partly by the BLM movement.   My cousin is an state trooper. I know a couple officers in my town. These are good guys.

 

I don't think the idea of offering emotional support and appreciation to police officers is a is a terrible idea at all. But the words they chose seem --- to me --- to be so scornful and ugly.

[poppy]

I think probably they feel like the BLM movement pretty directly targets police (sometimes physically, but at least in ideology).  So when they hear "black lives matter," what they hear (maybe, I am not a police officer) is "we are not grateful for the dangerous and difficult work you do in our communities and we have ill will towards you."  For them, the BLM movement is aggressive (and in many ways misguided/incorrect), so to turn it on its head and say "blue lives matter" *is* intended as an affront, or at least a direct repudiation, of something they consider both wrong and dangerous.

 

You're probably right. I'm not being oversensitive. It is intended to be aggressive.

[happi duck]

I think some people fill in:

"Black lives matter" *more than yours*.

 

I fill in:

"Black lives matter" *as much as all others*

[Carrie12345]

I do sympathize with BLM.   But I do  also sympathize with the idea of a movement to support police.

 

There is absolutely no need for these things to be mutually exclusive.  None.  

[eternalsummer]

Again, you sympathize with the BLM people, so to you repudiating them, or consciously contravening what they are proposing, is scornful and ugly.

 

But if you found them essentially incorrect - if you thought they were wrong, or wrong and dangerous, or even maybe *intentionally* dangerous and wrong, you might be more willing to make fun of them.

 

It's like, people who dislike Trump supporters are happy to make fun of them, right?  People make fun of NeoNazis.  Etc.  If you don't have essential sympathy for their position and think it is a bad position and directly opposed to your interests, it is easier to understand making fun of it or rejecting it or just using its own language against it.

[eternalsummer]

Yes, I think that to some people saying Blue Lives Matter is intended to be direct and aggressive.

 

 

Because to *them*, saying Black Lives Matter (and especially the way in which the movement often promotes it) is direct and aggressive.

[marbel]

Never mind.  I think try as I might, I will never be able to express myself properly to not offend.   

Edited April 29, 2016 by marbel

[Carrie12345]

Yes, I think that to some people saying Blue Lives Matter is intended to be direct and aggressive.

 

 

Because to *them*, saying Black Lives Matter (and especially the way in which the movement often promotes it) is direct and aggressive.

 

And I will never understand it. Death and incarceration are pretty direct and aggressive, themselves.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I mean the distinction between funny and mocking.

 

Depends on how you look at it.  Kind of like what I think the gist of this conversation is about.  Is it really mocking, or an expression of "hey what about the (other) underdog here"?  You may not feel as if anyone with a Darwin fish thing on their car is an underdog exactly, but in some places they certainly might be.

 

I live in a very liberal area so I rarely endure any flack for not being religious, but it has happened.  Once a woman told one of my kids that his parents were stupid because we don't send him to bible camp.  Good grief. 

[Slache]

I don't think it's mocking at all. I think it's saying blue lives matter too. Police are so often cast aside and being named as the bad guy when they put their lives on the line for our safety for a living. We shouldn't push them aside and label them as evil just because of a few bad apples. I'm grateful for the police and I find the lack of respect given to them appalling.

[poppy]

Again, you sympathize with the BLM people, so to you repudiating them, or consciously contravening what they are proposing, is scornful and ugly.

 

But if you found them essentially incorrect - if you thought they were wrong, or wrong and dangerous, or even maybe *intentionally* dangerous and wrong, you might be more willing to make fun of them.

 

It's like, people who dislike Trump supporters are happy to make fun of them, right?  People make fun of NeoNazis.  Etc.  If you don't have essential sympathy for their position and think it is a bad position and directly opposed to your interests, it is easier to understand making fun of it or rejecting it or just using its own language against it.

 

But, but, but. It's not like Trump. I'm a voter, it doesn't matter if make fun of Trump, or Hillary.   Police are tasked with keeping citizens of all races safe. Making fun of black people for being upset police have been involved in killing black people is just ........really gross. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Then again I don't see science and religion as being at odds. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

But, but, but. It's not like Trump. I'm a voter, it doesn't matter if make fun of Trump, or Hillary.   Police are tasked with keeping citizens of all races safe. Making fun of black people for being upset police have been involved in killing black people is just ........really gross. 

 

Politicians are fair game...

[Farrar]

Police lives have always mattered. Police lives already get special treatment in protection by the establishment - by the police themselves, by the court system, by the media.

 

Not so for Black lives. That's what makes it offensive to me to try and make out like they need a "movement."

[Katy]

Raised by a chief of police, many cops in the family.  My dad was shot at on the job twice, and in both cases killed the (white, strung-out) shooters.  A cousin was murdered by a (white) criminal.

 

I've never used the phrase.  But I get it.  Multiple police officers have been murdered just for being cops recently. Police are assumed to be evil racist murderers in the news, even in cases where when the evidence comes out the story isn't true.  When you're raised by police you have a different understanding of guns than those who have only been exposed to them in pop culture too.  You understand that you don't shoot to wound.  If you need to pull a gun to defend your life or the life of someone else, you've already decided to kill them.

 

OTOH, what happened in NY and in Chicago made my heart sick.  I'm sure there are many cases of people who were flat-out murdered.  But there are also issues of criminal cultures and children being raised to hate cops, even when they are properly doing their jobs.  It's complicated, but when you've been to funerals of cops who were murdered trying to do their jobs, or worse, cops who were murdered just for being cops, as there have been several instances of recently, I don't know that you could be as offended by saying that police lives matter too.

[Carrie12345]

  It's complicated, but when you've been to funerals of cops who were murdered trying to do their jobs, or worse, cops who were murdered just for being cops, as there have been several instances of recently, I don't know that you could be as offended by saying that police lives matter too.

 

Because when cops tragically die, people generally don't ask what they did to deserve it.

[Audrey]

Police lives have always mattered. Police lives already get special treatment in protection by the establishment - by the police themselves, by the court system, by the media.

 

Not so for Black lives. That's what makes it offensive to me to try and make out like they need a "movement."

 

 

This.  Exactly.

 

Saying "blue lives matter" or "all lives matter" is woefully ignorant and an egregious disregard for the crisis that has spawned the need for a Black Lives Matter movement.   

[eternalsummer]

I don't want to debate the BLM movement itself, so I'll try to explain using the Christian fish/Darwin analogy.

 

To people who believe sincerely in Christianity, the fish symbol has genuine meaning.  To them it symbolizes...well, I'm not sure, but I'm sure it is something important for some of them.  

 

Using the Darwin thing to mock it seems completely innocuous if you think the symbol is meaningless.  It even makes sense if you consider the environment when these things started cropping up - it was a lot more pro-Christian then (in my experience, anyway), and atheism or pro-evolution wasn't as popular, so teh Darwin symbol (to me) felt like a legitimate protest against something (Christianity) that was *not* legitimate.  

 

It wasn't that I took Christians' claims seriously and decided mine were more important, or that I thought they were right about God and Jesus and etc. but I needed to put them down.  For me, Christianity was meaningless at best, and at worst it was the perpetrator of various social injustices and personal oppressions (I grew up nonreligious in a Christian community).  So saying to Christians with the Darwin symbol, no, you are not right, you are wrong, and *my* position is right - that made sense to me.

 

For people who are opposed to the BLM movement, it is not a question of not sympathizing with black people who are oppressed by police.  It is (from people I have talked to, anyway) a belief that the focus of the BLM movement - the idea that police are systematically and individually unjust regarding black people - is actually wrong, or at least that it perpetuates a dangerous or wrong way of interacting (that is, an anti-police sentiment that has been specifically dangerous for police).

 

It is not that they don't think black lives matter as much as other lives - it is that they think (some of them, at least) that the BLM movement devalues police lives and safety and unfairly (and dangerously) paints them as people who are not doing, on the whole, the best they can in difficult situations.

[Katy]

Because when cops tragically die, people generally don't ask what they did to deserve it.

 

You're saying that they did deserve it?

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I don't think it's mocking at all. I think it's saying blue lives matter too. Police are so often cast aside and being named as the bad guy when they put their lives on the line for our safety for a living. We shouldn't push them aside and label them as evil just because of a few bad apples. I'm grateful for the police and I find the lack of respect given to them appalling.

 

I think it is a stretch to believe that blue lives don't matter and haven't been treated as if they matter.  How often do you see someone who kills a cop elude justice?  The same cannot be said regarding blatant cover ups and cover up attempts in some cases where the police have killed an African American. 

 

If there was a history of the police being the victims without serious attempts to bring the perpetrators to justice, I would accept the reasoning behind the Blue Lives Matter statement.

[LucyStoner]

Because when cops tragically die, people generally don't ask what they did to deserve it.

And because people arrested with murdering cops are not consistently either not charged or acquitted.

[Katy]

The fish symbol is a Christian reference from the days when Christianity was illegal.  Early Christians used it as a symbol they were Christian.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Police lives have always mattered. Police lives already get special treatment in protection by the establishment - by the police themselves, by the court system, by the media.

 

Not so for Black lives. That's what makes it offensive to me to try and make out like they need a "movement."

 

I should have read down further and just +1'd your post.

[SparklyUnicorn]

The fish symbol is a Christian reference from the days when Christianity was illegal.  Early Christians used it as a symbol they were Christian.

 

That's interesting.  I did not know that.

[Carrie12345]

You're saying that they did deserve it?

 

:scared:

That's exactly the type of thinking that causes all these problems.  How the human brain can make that leap amazes me.

[LucyStoner]

You're saying that they did deserve it?

No that is not what she said, I think what she was driving at is that when tragically murdered or killed in the line of duty, cops are generally treated with respect, their families receive an outpouring of support and, when apprehended, their killers are generally convicted.

 

Yet, people ON THIS BOARD and elsewhere will do rhetorical back flips trying to pin the responsibility of a black child's death on said child. Even if the child was carrying a toy or a bottle of Snapple and not a weapon.

 

I have a nearly 13 year old white son. I also have two black nephews, 21 and 10 years old. All of their lives do matter. Very much. To me, to their families, to themselves, to the community. But saying All Lives Matter is dismissing the very real fact that my white son is at a far lower risk of dying due to his complexion. I love my son. I worry more about my nephews. My older nephew is a college junior, honor student and intends to make a living helping kids. No record, no drugs. Has he been messed with for no other reason than his skin? You had better believe it. My sons just do not face the same risk. That's a fact. It is a false equivalency to compare the risk level.

[poppy]

I consider Black Lives Matter a hate group/movement which uses threats, violence, and intimidation. I know that others would disagree with this, but that's my observation and opinion.

 

The fact that they have been inciting murder of/violence towards unsuspecting officers is appalling.

 

The phrase Blue Lives Matter is not mocking those who are protesting in frustration of the shootings of young, black men. Rather, it's a protest against the racists who have co-opted the peaceful protests, and turned BLM into a violent, anti-white group. Officers are seen as being part of the white establishment, and are all now targets of those who want to rule through violence and mayhem.

 

It's more like, "Blue Lives Matter, too."

 

This is an absolutely bizarre interpretation of the BLM movement, to my eyes.   But I appreciate you articulating it, because, I honestly had no idea that those kinds of views were actually out there. They want to rule through violence and mayhem?   My church is fairly actively involved in BLM and that is news to me!!  I have sat through hours of discussion, not all of it pleasant, not everyone even likes the term Black Lives Matter. But the idea that it is a violent anti-white group was never in my consciousness.

 

But again, I appreciate the reply.  It's very clear now that when I read Blue Lives Matter, it is deliberately mocking and is rooted in anger.   I hate that. I hate that I see posts on Facebook meant to support police that I have to scroll by instead of liking it because I don't want to be associated with Blue Lives Matter.  It's ugly and it didn't have to be.  

[Farrar]

I'm constantly amazed by how some people don't get BLM. But the very fact that asserting that black lives matter garners such anger (and even such vandalism as I know churches with BLM banners are huge targets for vandalism) is proof that the movement is needed.

[Daria]

I am ambivalent about it myself.

 

I am extremely sympathetic to the Black Lives Matter crusade. Not a fan of All Lives Matter for the reasons that you state.

 

However, in the last couple of years there has been a significant spate of execution style killings of police officers--at gas stations, eating fast food, just parked somewhere. Although it is not directly advocated by BLM, my sense is that it is precipitated by BLM, and it's not right. So I have some sympathy to the usage as Blue Lives Matter.

I see it differently. The very long term trend of unprosecuted violence against black people and especially young black males by police, combined with rapidly developing technologies such as body cameras and dashboard cams, has lead to media attention and very justified anger. Some of the anger has been channeled into a political movement, BLM, and some has turned into aggression against the police which is awful.

[Mom22ns]

Ok, so using the fish thing... I am an old earth Christian and while I've never seen one, I think a Darwin fish sounds great! I don't think of it as mocking Christians. For me (and for most Christians I know, I'd never hear of YE till I came here) science and Christianity are not at odds. Using the symbols brings both pieces of truth together.

 

On a similar note, for me BLM I get. It took me awhile, but I get it. Black lives matter too. Black lives matter and are often treated as if they don't.

 

OTOH, I have friends and family in law enforcement. Some may think Blue lives have always mattered, but the truth is in todays culture, Blue lives are being discounted as racist and evil. All law enforcement is catching the blame for what a few have done. Wanting to come back and say Blue lives matter too doesn't have to discount BLM, it can meld. Both are important. Both are failing to get the recognition they need in today's culture. 

 

Just as I can blend the fish and darwin, I can blend black and blue. I don't discount one by embracing the other. However, I stay out of all of the above because I think they all bring division, not empathy.

[MotherGoose]

I think "Blue lives matter" came to exist to draw attention to the number of police officers killed in the line of duty because the family members, justifiably, feel that the sacrifices of their family members may be ignored by the media in the focus on Black lives matter.

[Farrar]

I think "Blue lives matter" came to exist to draw attention to the number of police officers killed in the line of duty because the family members, justifiably, feel that the sacrifices of their family members may be ignored by the media in the focus on Black lives matter.

 

Police deaths are tracked in a national database. Killings by police are not.

 

There are special funds for the families, funerals, and national ceremonies for police killed in the line of fire. There are not for those killed wrongly by police.

 

Police deaths receive special treatment by the police, who work pretty tirelessly to find the killers. Black deaths don't always receive that attention.

 

Police deaths receive special treatment by the court system, which is more likely to at indite the alleged killers and devote more resources to their prosecution. Police themselves are routinely protected from indictments when they wrongly kill someone, even when they're off duty. Black deaths don't receive such special attention.

 

So... In what way are police families being ignored?

 

When you're used to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

 

Of course, police and prosecutors *should* go after anyone who kills a police officer. Deaths of the police should be tracked. There should be special funds and ceremonies for them. But I think it's nonsense for anyone to claim that police deaths are being sidelined or ignored. Black deaths - especially at police hands - have been wrongly ignored for too long.

[MotherGoose]

The police are voluntarily going out there to work to help people. They could have stayed at home and done something else safer. They are protecting you and me. I know that people are sometimes killed by the police in error--people who were going about their business and not expecting trouble. Some people are killed in error because of racial stereotyoes. I understand. I think the Black lives matter group may ignore the sacrifices of the police and focus on the Black people killed by police regardless of whether they were criminals and disregarded the police instructions or not.

[Farrar]

The police are voluntarily going out there to work to help people. They could have stayed at home and done something else safer. They are protecting you and me. I know that people are sometimes killed by the police in error--people who were going about their business and not expecting trouble. Some people are killed in error because of racial stereotyoes. I understand. I think the Black lives matter group may ignore the sacrifices of the police and focus on the Black people killed by police regardless of whether they were criminals and disregarded the police instructions or not.

 

You're right, they are ignoring the sacrifices made by the police. That's not the goal of their group. There are already many groups that do that. BLM is trying to raise awareness about a totally different set of issues. Attacking them for that or implying that they should be paying attention to police lives "too" diminishes the importance of the work they're doing. Do you suggest that national police organizations should be working for totally different causes as well?

[Farrar]

It's really odd to me that my explanation given in #30 was taken to be mocking, bizarre, or hateful.

 

I suspect that some on here, in turn, don't "hear" the hate in their posts that I hear. This may just be the case because of the drawbacks in communicating through posts where one cannot always pick up tone or emotion. Perhaps it's just frustration which can come across as sounding hateful. It might also be the case that thinking is so entrenched that individuals are unable to see a counter argument from another person's point of view.

 

Maybe those of us who know police officers, sheriffs, and troopers who have homes, children, and loved ones, and who are nice, would appreciate some acknowledgement that the job they do takes a terrible toll on them. Of course, some of them are not nice, nor honest, and they do need to be weeded out and held accountable; but, they're not all like that, and I would not want to live in a country without them.

 

I don't know what tone could or couldn't come through in your post. You said BLM is a hate group and said you found them appalling. Many of us strongly disagree. I find it sad and misguided that anyone thinks that. And I think the view that people advocating for Black lives must be a "hate" group to be proof that the BLM movement is needed.

[Katy]

The main issue is where people get their news.  If you're getting it from liberal sources, you're told BLM is doing very important work.  There are some bad cops who do terrible things. 

 

If you're getting it from conservative sources, you're told the people running BLM have a goal to stir up a race war and eventually maybe even eventually a civil war that rushes in socialism.  When morons go and stir up trouble by murdering cops who are innocently sitting in a squad car or pumping gas after work, it becomes more believable. Since some of the people connected to the movement have made public comments about a revolution being their goal in the past, it's easy to fear monger in that direction, encouraging people to watch your "news" entertainment program the next night.

 

For the most part, people on both sides of this issue are just trying to do what they think is right. 

 

Edited for clarity.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Katy

[Guest]

 Black lives matter group may ignore the sacrifices of the police and focus on the Black people killed by police regardless of whether they were criminals and disregarded the police instructions or not.

 

See what ya did there?

[MotherGoose]

You're right, they are ignoring the sacrifices made by the police. That's not the goal of their group. There are already many groups that do that. BLM is trying to raise awareness about a totally different set of issues. Attacking them for that or implying that they should be paying attention to police lives "too" diminishes the importance of the work they're doing. Do you suggest that national police organizations should be working for totally different causes as well?

No I don't. However, the national police organizations are honoring officers who were killed in the line of duty. Black lives matter appears to me, and perhaps I'm wrong and if so I stand corrected, to assume that almost any Black person killed in an interaction with the police was somehow innocent if any wrongdoing and was killed solely because of racism.

[Carrie12345]

It's really odd to me that my explanation given in #30 was taken to be mocking, bizarre, or hateful.

 

I suspect that some on here, in turn, don't "hear" the hate in their posts that I hear. This may just be the case because of the drawbacks in communicating through posts where one cannot always pick up tone or emotion. Perhaps it's just frustration which can come across as sounding hateful. It might also be the case that thinking is so entrenched that individuals are unable to see a counter argument from another person's point of view.

 

Maybe those of us who know police officers, sheriffs, and troopers who have homes, children, and loved ones, and who are nice, would appreciate some acknowledgement that the job they do takes a terrible toll on them. Of course, some of them are not nice, nor honest, and they do need to be weeded out and held accountable; but, they're not all like that, and I would not want to live in a country without them.

 

My love and appreciation for my relatives and neighbors who put their lives on the line don't minimize my belief in black lives mattering and needing voice.  My compassion isn't that limited.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

 

 

You can advocate for one group without diminishing the needs and goals of another.

 

There was no need to diminish the Black Lives Matter movement to emphasize the sacrifice good cops make.