Jump to content

Menu

Thinkwell (or similar) for math whiz? Suggestions?[Update: Chose AoPS classes.]


epi
 Share

Recommended Posts

Update: We have decided to go with the AoPS classes. Expecting a youngster to teach themselves with only the books wasn't realistic in our case. Hopefully this will be effective, and we get to stay with a strong math syllabus.

 

Original message below.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We have been homeschooling for two years, and really struggling to get things to work. I made a general post in this forum
http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/605521-seeking-online-easy-to-use-complete-homeschooling-curriculum/

Our oldest, DS10, is quite good at math. We got some AoPS books, but his progress through them is slow and sporadic, and it's clear this approach is not working for now. He really doesn't like working out of books. He much prefers online. (Also he wants to solve every single problem which we told him was not necessary or even plausible.) Perhaps he currently lacks some of the self-directed studying skills needed to work independently using such books.

So we're now looking for common and garden variety courses in the standard Algebra-Geometry-Trigonometry-Calculus sequence, preferably online/onscreen: watch a video/animated mini-lecture, take a quiz, and move on to the next topic.

I know the philosophy behind "The Calculus Trap" but I'm now intentionally not heeding that advice and saying that DS10 should indeed just go ahead and learn this material from standard courses like most people do, without the epic problem solving challenges that AoPS offers. (He'll still use AoPS for "off-sequence" topics like Number Theory, Counting & Probability, and he'll still face extremely challenging problems in math contests like AMC and MathCounts.)

I really know very little about the available courses of the type I'm looking for. I came across these
http://www.thinkwellhomeschool.com/
which seem to fit the kind of thing I'm looking for. (They cost about $125 per course, but I can live with that.) But I want to know what alternatives there are of this type, before selecting one. I want something mathematically and pedagogically sound, still at a decent level academically aimed at good students, but just not the AoPS style.

Any suggestions for courses of this type? (It needs to be entirely on computer.)

Edited by epi
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dr Callahan is another DVD option. We are likely moving to Derek Owens for Geometry because I like the Jacobs book while still have some support and the ability to have things graded for me. Geometry is past my level of knowledge!

 

AoPS didn't work for us

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My dd used the cal course this yr and it was fine, but it is definitely not in the "great" category. However, I would never take the following approach with math: watch a video/animated mini-lecture, take a quiz, and move on to the next topic. That sounds like a superficial, skim the surface and do simple equations type approach vs. mastering concepts and applying what they have learned. My dd who used Thinkwell's cal had an excellent foundation from all her lower level courses and detests math. She has no intention of pursuing any higher level math courses or I would not have opted for Thinkwell bc Thinkwell just doesn't require the same depth of understanding for success in the program.

 

There are a lot of options between Thinkwell and AoPS. Kids do not need AoPS's methodology to develop strong math skills. There are great traditional textbooks out there with direct teaching methodologies but with with deeper application problems than video, quizz, move on. Foerster is my favorite. If you need video lectures, Chalkdust or Derek Owens might be an option.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I forgot about Chalkdust.

 

Epi, I read your other post. If you need something that will instruct and score, I think you might be better off with something different. I'd consider a live online class for your oldest as it sounds like his math skills are all over the place. Picking up some trig online is great, but if he doesn't have a solid math foundation leading into Algebra and past there, it will be a very hard row to how for him.

 

Derek Owens or Chalkdust might work. Teaching Textbooks isn't my favorite but can be self-grading. Similar options might be Switched on Schoolhouse or even Monarch. However, reading your other post, I have concerns that these might only entertain him for a short time before he's off chasing rabbits on other websites if he has full reign of a computer and no parent oversight.

 

The younger ones need more one on one instruction. You simply are not going to find a program that will teach your kinder and 2nd grader regardless of how advanced they may be. I understand having one working parent, but to make homeschooling successful, I would think your wife will need to play a more active role. Otherwise, I'm sorry, but this sounds dangerously close to educational neglect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Our oldest, DS10, is quite good at math. We got some AoPS books, but his progress through them is slow and sporadic, and it's clear this approach is not working for now. He really doesn't like working out of books. He much prefers online. (Also he wants to solve every single problem which we told him was not necessary or even plausible.) Perhaps he currently lacks some of the self-directed studying skills needed to work independently using such books.

I read your other thread. My kids did K12 VA and they let my oldest take algebra 1 and earth science at 8 years old. I had to request but it wasn't hard. So if your wife just want to supervise and not teach, see if K12 VA can accommodate since that is a free option for you. Your son can easily complete two math course a year.

 

AoPS now have online textbooks. They let you buy the online textbooks at a discount if you bought the textbooks from them. I don't see anything wrong with solving every single problem in the books if he wants to. If he is used to the online style of K12, he might just need someone to work out a pacing guide for him. My DS10 was sporadic until I give him a daily schedule, my DS11 could pace himself but found the AoPS online class keep him on schedule.

 

Kids going from K12 VA to self teaching need to have strong executive function abilities. They are not going to be able to check the boxes independently without handholding initially.

 

If your wife does not want to teach, she would still need to supervise. I outsource most of my kids subjects but I still supervise and know when they slack or have a bad day.

 

My kids does not enjoy the videos by Dr Burger (Thinkwell) nor by Derek Owens so those choice are out for us. There are samples on YouTube so you and your son can view them and decide.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Did you try using the free resources on the AOPS website? They have videos to view for just about every topic. They have Alcumus, for online problems, and they have discussion boards too.

I think it is normal for AOPS pacing to be slow compared to a standard math text, and frustrating at first, but for us it was totally worth it. My daughter took a year and a half to do the Pre-algebra book, mostly on her own, watching the videos. I checked in with her for about 15 minutes each day on math, except on the occasional difficult day.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is solid reason for the "calculus trap" philosophy. Success in higher math and science is dependent upon the strength of foundation at the prealgebra / algebra / trigonometry levels.

 

By no means is AoPS essential. It is excellent, but requires lots of parental involvement for most kids to succeed. A solid foundation can be set using any classical series. Just take care to avoid gimmicky / short cut methods.

 

If you don't have the facilities to support the math education in a hands-on fashion, consider finding alternate texts to use as reinforcement. For instance, after prealgebra, do AOPS prealgebra. Or, after algebra 2, do college algebra.

 

A rush to calculus will backfire, but age doesn't dictate success. Preparation does. A well-prepared student is ready, and doesn't need to be held back.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My dd used the cal course this yr and it was fine, but it is definitely not in the "great" category. However, I would never take the following approach with math: watch a video/animated mini-lecture, take a quiz, and move on to the next topic. That sounds like a superficial, skim the surface and do simple equations type approach vs. mastering concepts and applying what they have learned. My dd who used Thinkwell's cal had an excellent foundation from all her lower level courses and detests math. She has no intention of pursuing any higher level math courses or I would not have opted for Thinkwell bc Thinkwell just doesn't require the same depth of understanding for success in the program.

 

There are a lot of options between Thinkwell and AoPS. Kids do not need AoPS's methodology to develop strong math skills. There are great traditional textbooks out there with direct teaching methodologies but with with deeper application problems than video, quizz, move on. Foerster is my favorite. If you need video lectures, Chalkdust or Derek Owens might be an option.

 

My daughter will be using Thinkwell for Algebra 2 next year.  She loves math and is thinking of pursuing it a major in college.  Do you think using Thinkwell is a mistake?  

 

Erica

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My daughter will be using Thinkwell for Algebra 2 next year.  She loves math and is thinking of pursuing it a major in college.  Do you think using Thinkwell is a mistake?  

 

Erica

 

I asked my dd what she thought and she said she thinks that Thinkwell is weak in application problems compared to Foerster.  She wouldn't recommend it for someone wanting to pursue a math major.  She thinks it is OK, but she says there are definitely better math programs out there.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I asked my dd what she thought and she said she thinks that Thinkwell is weak in application problems compared to Foerster.  She wouldn't recommend it for someone wanting to pursue a math major.  She thinks it is OK, but she says there are definitely better math programs out there.  

 

Thank you!  Back to the drawing board...

 

Erica

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OP here. Thanks for the comments and suggestions. I am looking into them. I understand the various pedagogical arguments, and I understand what the various kinds of courses are and aren't (though I'm not familiar with specific courses which is why I ask), but at this point I do want some more standard types of courses that can be done online, where a very mathy kid can easily learn this material.

DS10 does various things on the internet, some worthwhile, some not. But of his own initiative he will find things like the binomial theorem, the sine rule, the power rule, and many other things, and he understands the explanations of why they are true, which is clear to me when he tells me about them. I don't want to discourage him from surfing the internet and learning random pieces of math, but he now needs to go ahead and learn these courses in full, in a more organized way, instead of finding random fragments. It's clear he's ready for all of this material in this  Algebra-Geometry-Trigonometry-Calculus path as presented in typical courses. It's just not that hard. There's plenty of chance for him to do harder problem solving and formal theorems and proofs when he's older.

Anyway, I noticed that Thinkwell is used by CTY (and I thought it was also used by EPGY, but I could be mistaken) so it can't be that bad. But I do want to hear about any other options.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thinkwell, Khan, and Alcumus are good tools, but they are really sub-standard as standalone courses.  I just haven't seen good results from even strong math students - DW has had to re-start entire courses for kids because parents relied on them (as a homeschool / coop tutor).  In the college setting, both DW and I have taught kids who were underprepared in prealgebra or algebra 1 but somehow got to calculus or better in high school.  It's terrible taking a kid who expects to be placed in an advanced math course and telling them they need to return to precalc or even college algebra for remediation.  These are sometimes VERY bright kids aiming for math degrees (and end up doing just fine in the long haul).

 

There are accredited online options from many states, which offer traditional structure (TTUISD, Fla virtual school, et al).  Far better to do one of these than relying on a drill/review program to teach your child.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We have been homeschooling for two years, and really struggling to get things to work. I made a general post in this forum

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/605521-seeking-online-easy-to-use-complete-homeschooling-curriculum/

 

Our oldest, DS10, is quite good at math. We got some AoPS books, but his progress through them is slow and sporadic, and it's clear this approach is not working for now. He really doesn't like working out of books. He much prefers online. (Also he wants to solve every single problem which we told him was not necessary or even plausible.) Perhaps he currently lacks some of the self-directed studying skills needed to work independently using such books.

 

So we're now looking for common and garden variety courses in the standard Algebra-Geometry-Trigonometry-Calculus sequence, preferably online/onscreen: watch a video/animated mini-lecture, take a quiz, and move on to the next topic.

 

I know the philosophy behind "The Calculus Trap" but I'm now intentionally not heeding that advice and saying that DS10 should indeed just go ahead and learn this material from standard courses like most people do, without the epic problem solving challenges that AoPS offers. (He'll still use AoPS for "off-sequence" topics like Number Theory, Counting & Probability, and he'll still face extremely challenging problems in math contests like AMC and MathCounts.)

 

I really know very little about the available courses of the type I'm looking for. I came across these

http://www.thinkwellhomeschool.com/

which seem to fit the kind of thing I'm looking for. (They cost about $125 per course, but I can live with that.) But I want to know what alternatives there are of this type, before selecting one. I want something mathematically and pedagogically sound, still at a decent level academically aimed at good students, but just not the AoPS style.

 

Any suggestions for courses of this type? (It needs to be entirely on computer.)

 

Does your son not like Khan Academy? Because your description that I bolded pretty much describes KA.

 

KA gets a bad rap around here because when it started out it it was very, very formulaic. That's still a bit true, but in it's latest incarnation it's not bad. In many places the videos have been ramped up to explain the concept behind the algorithm.

 

If your son is all over the place with math, and eager to move ahead, you could assign "world of math" and it would adapt to plug his holes and move him up in what he knows. After a few months of that you'd have a good report of a baseline math grade level, and areas he's weak and strong in. I think you'd then have a better idea what sort of paid program he'd be good in.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

KA gets a bad rap around here because when it started out it it was very, very formulaic. That's still a bit true, but in it's latest incarnation it's not bad. In many places the videos have been ramped up to explain the concept behind the algorithm.

 

That's not why it gets a bad rap.  It gets a bad rap because it is a poor excuse for a good teacher.  If it's all you've got to work with, it sure beats the alternative, but I haven't yet seen a single kid come away from a teacherless drill/kill program who was fully prepared for the level their parents wanted them placed.

 

It may sound a bit harsh, but a 100% mark speaks volumes to me.  There undoubtedly are some success stories, but I can assure you that they are in the minority.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's not why it gets a bad rap.  It gets a bad rap because it is a poor excuse for a good teacher.  If it's all you've got to work with, it sure beats the alternative, but I haven't yet seen a single kid come away from a teacherless drill/kill program who was fully prepared for the level their parents wanted them placed.

 

It may sound a bit harsh, but a 100% mark speaks volumes to me.  There undoubtedly are some success stories, but I can assure you that they are in the minority.

 

 

I don't think that's a fair characterization of KA. That's a good description of handing a kid a Saxon book and telling them to have at it, though (like Robinson). If a student bothers to use KA the way it is supposed to be used, it isn't much different from Saxon+DVD option or TT. The huge advantage I see in KA, besides being lower cost, is the adaptive nature - so a kid isn't stuck multiplying two digit numbers over and over when they are more than ready to play with negative numbers, for example. 

 

I think most kids who are stuck on KA as their main curriculum learn how to "game" it, same as TT. Like my son, he would just guess or run through the hints to stick in the right answer and zoom through as quickly as possible. I realized that he didn't like the videos, they were too long for him, and went too slow. But he was 7 then, and ADHD. For a student with some motivation, maturity, and good oversight though, it could work. Especially for a short time to get a bright but aimless student up to an overall grade level to enroll in an online paid class.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think that's a fair characterization of KA. That's a good description of handing a kid a Saxon book and telling them to have at it, though (like Robinson). If a student bothers to use KA the way it is supposed to be used, it isn't much different from Saxon+DVD option or TT. The huge advantage I see in KA, besides being lower cost, is the adaptive nature - so a kid isn't stuck multiplying two digit numbers over and over when they are more than ready to play with negative numbers, for example. 

 

I think most kids who are stuck on KA as their main curriculum learn how to "game" it, same as TT. Like my son, he would just guess or run through the hints to stick in the right answer and zoom through as quickly as possible. I realized that he didn't like the videos, they were too long for him, and went too slow. But he was 7 then, and ADHD. For a student with some motivation, maturity, and good oversight though, it could work. Especially for a short time to get a bright but aimless student up to an overall grade level to enroll in an online paid class.

 

I think it is missing the point.  Using Khan for repetition or shoring up a technique is perfectly fine.  For arithmetic, it's fine.  I don't dislike it at all.  I probably wouldn't be so strongly voiced if this weren't an AL who shows promise for math.

 

I just have not had good experiences in taking students after years of Khan at the higher levels.  I've seen entire years wasted.  I had two "calculus" students who had to go WAY back: one to prealgebra, and another to algebra 2.  Videos just aren't a good substitute for a math teacher, even an online one.  A video cannot assess whether the student understands foundational concepts - it can only show that the student can somehow reach a correct answer to a problem.  It certainly cannot verify proofs as needed in geometry, precalculus, and calculus.

 

Honestly, I haven't yet found a case who learned enough solely via Khan that would pass a course I would teach.  Maybe I'm a tough teacher, but I like students to be prepared and confident as they progress.

 

BTW, you hit the nail on the head with TT.  It bears the same flaws.  But, most parents sit with their kids as they do TT, and understand the course progression, so the child still has a teacher.  A well-prepared parent could use Khan similarly.  Funny thing is, though the TT kids may be a bit behind, they seem to know what they have learned.

 

ETA: And Saxon is the one I really do despise for kids with mathematical promise.  ;)  It's fine for the masses (meaning the vast majority who won't do higher math), but completely avoids essential theory.  Saxon kids can solve problems like no tomorrow, which is great - for the masses.

Edited by Mike in SA
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

After some more thought we came to a conclusion that seems so obvious in hindsight. Instead of trying to work through the AoPS books (which was not working) DS10 should take the AoPS classes. It's more expensive, e.g. $300 class versus $50 book, but if it works I can live with the cost. Another concern I had had about the classes (versus the books) was that once enrolled in the class, you are committed to the pace and schedule (and lose the flexibilty to speed up, slow down, take a break) but I think this commitment can turn into a positive. DS10 understands what would be required, and is on board with this. He took an AoPS class for AMC 8 prep and really liked it, so he knows the format and enjoys it.

 

So I feel good about this choice for Math for DS10. (But for the rest of the subjects and the rest of our children our homeschooling plan is still a shambles.  :crying:  )
 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

After some more thought we came to a conclusion that seems so obvious in hindsight. Instead of trying to work through the AoPS books (which was not working) DS10 should take the AoPS classes. It's more expensive, e.g. $300 class versus $50 book, but if it works I can live with the cost. Another concern I had had about the classes (versus the books) was that once enrolled in the class, you are committed to the pace and schedule (and lose the flexibilty to speed up, slow down, take a break) but I think this commitment can turn into a positive. DS10 understands what would be required, and is on board with this. He took an AoPS class for AMC 8 prep and really liked it, so he knows the format and enjoys it.

 

So I feel good about this choice for Math for DS10. (But for the rest of the subjects and the rest of our children our homeschooling plan is still a shambles.  :crying:  )

 

 

THIS makes sense.  I hadn't caught that you were making a go with only the books.  That's admirable, but tough! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I updated the OP to say what we chose to do.

After some more thought we came to a conclusion that seems so obvious in hindsight. Instead of trying to work through the AoPS books (which was not working) DS10 should take the AoPS classes. It's more expensive, e.g. $300 class versus $50 book, but if it works I can live with the cost. Another concern I had had about the classes (versus the books) was that once enrolled in the class, you are committed to the pace and schedule (and lose the flexibilty to speed up, slow down, take a break) but I think this commitment can turn into a positive. DS10 understands what would be required, and is on board with this. He took an AoPS class for AMC 8 prep and really liked it, so he knows the format and enjoys it.

 

THIS makes sense.  I hadn't caught that you were making a go with only the books.  That's admirable, but tough! 

 

Right. The course material did not need to be changed. We just needed to change to a more supportive and structured format.

Edited by epi
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...

After some more thought we came to a conclusion that seems so obvious in hindsight. Instead of trying to work through the AoPS books (which was not working) DS10 should take the AoPS classes. It's more expensive, e.g. $300 class versus $50 book, but if it works I can live with the cost. Another concern I had had about the classes (versus the books) was that once enrolled in the class, you are committed to the pace and schedule (and lose the flexibilty to speed up, slow down, take a break) but I think this commitment can turn into a positive. DS10 understands what would be required, and is on board with this. He took an AoPS class for AMC 8 prep and really liked it, so he knows the format and enjoys it.

 

So I feel good about this choice for Math for DS10. (But for the rest of the subjects and the rest of our children our homeschooling plan is still a shambles.  :crying:  )

 

 

Update: DS10 has now started to  take a couple of classes, and it's working out really well. He really just needed that extra structure to stay on task (and he finds the live classes fun). So we may keep doing the classes in the future. Or we may figure out how to provide the structure at home (which, as parents, we had previously failed to do).

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

. Or we may figure out how to provide the structure at home (which, as parents, we had previously failed to do).

 

My oldest likes structure and would even make his own timetable. He like hard deadlines. However what we could not provide was a group of kids to study with him. He loves written discussion groups which is why the AoPS text based class and his CTY writing class works for him.

We tried forming in real life study groups and it was hard because people keep turning it into free for them math contest prep even though we have a Mathnasium nearby who would do contest prep tutoring.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...