Painful Parent- Adult Child Religious Conflict more widespread today?

[TranquilMind]

After a recent interaction with a religious neighbor who is very upset by similar incidents in her family, the abrupt exponential rise of this activity perplexes me.  What is going on?

 

I had no idea that this seems to be happening more and more, sometimes with multiple children.

 

Caveat:  no need to have an obnoxious interchange about this with those who are unable to entertain religiously based views so back away from the thread if you cannot do this and keep it civil and on topic.  I do not want this to devolve into some sort of nonsensical railing about "homophobia".  That isn't the issue here.  I did not hear  "fear", just sadness and great confusion.

 

Just on a societal level, I have to wonder what is going on.  These things happened here and there in the past, but certainly not on any widespread level in the community.  A mom on one forum said she had about 20 third grade school kids in her class and during discussion, 10 children of the 20 claimed to be bi or trans, and even this young teacher was pretty shocked at that.  How is this possible? Is there some endocrine disruption thing going on, I wonder?  

 

I feel for them.  Their faiths teach them that same sex relationships are wrong, and so to affirm the child's decision- which the child demands or parents will be cut off - means to contravene their own faith which predates the child.  A Hobson's choice indeed.

 

Some have jettisoned their faith.  Some have jettisoned their kid.  Some kids have jettisoned their parents.  None of this is right. 

 

Things like this have to be unusual (parent talking here), right? :  

 

"My son was  a married man with three children. He suddenly said he was gay years into the marriage.  I was so confused.  How had this happened?  Then, my daughter in law packed her bags and left my son because he had committed adultery with another man. It was horrible.  But then they reconciled, and it seemed all would be well.  They were together again, happy, and had another child.  It was all going to be all right.

 

Not too long after the birth of my latest grandchild, my son told me he and his wife would divorce because he wanted to be with a man.  I finally broke down and talked to my pastor, something I was afraid to do. Thankfully, my pastor told me that I should continue to love him and pray for him and to know hope always exists.   My grandchildren did not deserve to go through this."

 

 

And another:

 

"I am struggling. My son told us he was gay last year.  My husband just cried like a baby. What had we done wrong?  I had been a stay-at-home mom who was always with them and always loved them.   How had this happened in a loving Christian home?  I have tried to love him as Christ loves me but my heart feels broken. As if that wasn't bad enough, then my daughter said she was in a relationship with a woman. I nearly broke. I am still in shock.My husband is afraid to speak with her because he will break down. We just don’t feel like we know these children. My heart is heavy.  Every day I feel like I can’t breathe. Some days I just break down and cry out to God. How could I have just these children and both of them do this? It is impossible not to blame myself and wonder what I did wrong to make this happen to two children."

 

And unbelievably, another: 

 

"At 15, my son said he was gay, something I somewhat suspected. I was not happy, but what can I do?  Then my older college-aged daughter told me she too was gay. This second child telling me she too is gay has just about broken me. What did I do wrong? We sent them to Christian schools, and Christian colleges, and they both have walked away from the faith.  I have such mixed emotions, my daughter was always my best friend and now suddenly my daughter just sent me an email telling me she is marrying this person who is nearly 50 years old and I'm not invited because I expressed misgivings…the emotions I am going thru are ranging from sadness to hurt to grief. I do not think anyone can understand the sadness.  I ask God what I did wrong"

 

 

Again, just interested in the topic in general and why it is so prevalent if it is, not in attacks for daring to mention this reality for some families- apparently more than I would have imagined.    I really do see both sides and there is a lot of pain there. 

[Katy]

I don't think religious conflicts are more commonplace.  I think they've been common since at least the reformation. I think we have a society that talks about them more. I know for certain my grandmother had numerous conflicts with her mother because she wasn't as conservative religiously.   And in DH's family there was a long line of pastors until the grandparent's generation, when they had a huge falling out over it.

 

We also have a society that says it's not a moral or religious failing to be gay, so it's going to be more common for people that were previously in the closet to come out and demand to be accepted for who they are.

[regentrude]

I sense two different topics here in your post. One is religious conflict . The other is young people admitting to their homosexual orientation. I would not have labelled the latter as the former. I can imagine other reasons why young people may have different religious opinions than their parents, and thought this is what you wanted to discuss.

 

Since you make this specifically about homosexuality and not a crisis of faith in the young adults:

One thing I see as a possible explanation for the larger number of people coming out as homosexuals is that this no longer carries the harsh stigma in society that it did decades ago. So I do not believe there are actually more gays now, just that more people admit to themselves and others that they are gay.

 

As for the school kids: I do not for a moment believe that 50% of a class are transgender or homosexual. These numbers seem way off. I do believe that, in some cases, young people who are confused and unhappy may look for an explanation in this area. Since the topic is now discussed more openly, I think more people explore the possibility whether their feelings of unhappiness and not fitting in could be caused by issues of sexual orientation or gender identification. I think for many, this will not turn out to be the answer.

 

ETA: I feel for the parents in the OP because they somehow got saddled with the idea that they did something wrong that caused their children to be homosexuals.  It must be very sad and difficult for those parents who really believe this to be their fault. Parents who do not carry this baggage will have a much easier time accepting their children's sexual orientation - just like they would other attributes their kids were born with.

Edited April 26, 2016 by regentrude

[TranquilMind]

I don't think religious conflicts are more commonplace.  I think they've been common since at least the reformation. I think we have a society that talks about them more. I know for certain my grandmother had numerous conflicts with her mother because she wasn't as conservative religiously.   And in DH's family there was a long line of pastors until the grandparent's generation, when they had a huge falling out over it.

 

We also have a society that says it's not a moral or religious failing to be gay, so it's going to be more common for people that were previously in the closet to come out and demand to be accepted for who they are.

 

Don't you think that is different though, conflicts one has because of being more or less conservative about an issue....say modern worship music vs. hymns type of people?   Or even instruments vs. no instruments in Mennonite congregations? 

Or the calling to be a pastor vs. not a pastor? I know in the generation before me, it was very desirable to have at least one kid of your large Catholic family be a priest or a nun, sort of an "inside line" to God, as it were. 

 

This is totally different in that there is no biblical proscription against not being a pastor or not being a nun or using modern music or instruments.   This is a direct conflict between faith and proscribed sexual behavior, the way those who believe those scriptures believe. 

 

So this is much different in kind than a mere conflict in styles, the way I'm reading it. 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

I dunno, all of those examples sound like people who don't really understand what gay is (it's not a lack of religiosity, or bad parenting).

 

What kind of third grade teacher is asking the class all at once if they are gay?

 

...

 

But as a rule, religious differences with parents can be a conflict, or not a conflict. And as a rule, it's the parents who decide which way it goes.

[Tess in the Burbs]

I read something once that most kids have gender identity issues when young.  If allowed no influence, most will go on to be accepting of the gender they are as adults. But it seems like now, when a kid shows a preference people talk about it.  They end up believing this truth about themselves, whether it would have been true or not.  If society accepted that people may have leanings one way or the other until they are older(so no pressure to choose) then perhaps it wouldn't feel like everyone is having gender issues b/c they would have the time work it out.  

 

As for religious conflict...my sister walked away from the church and pretty feels that if someone goes to church they hate her b/c she doesn't go to church.  She has this idea that all church goers are super hateful toward non  believers.  I finally had to tell her the world doesn't do religion like our mom.  Stop judging the church goers.  She admits she assumed we all thought like mom.  ugh. 

[FaithManor]

I dunno, all of those examples sound like people who don't really understand what gay is (it's not a lack of religiosity, or bad parenting).

 

What kind of third grade teacher is asking the class all at once if they are gay?

 

...

 

But as a rule, religious differences with parents can be a conflict, or not a conflict. And as a rule, it's the parents who decide which way it goes.

I agree completely.

 

In my own life, my parents have become increasingly more conservative even a fundamentalist recently, while dh and I are much more center/moderate both religiously and politically. My father has chosen to make this an issue of us disrespecting him, and in particular, "the way he raised me" except that in terms of how he raised me, he was pretty moderate back then.

 

At any rate, he and some of his relatives in the same age range have now resorted to insults, name calling, and snarky remarks aimed out our kids. It is sad because my dad has less than a year to live now, and frankly, we are distancing ourselves a lot. I haven't seen him in a week, and don't feel compelled to go visit either. He has someone there to take good care of him, so my obligation to him has been fulfilled.

 

Our college boy is probably going to turn out to be more progressive religiously and politically than we are. We love him enough, we value our relationship enough, to keep our mouths shut about it.

 

In ages past, it was culturally pretty unacceptable to go against parents even as adults, and in some cases, like issues of homosexuality and such, the penalties were horrid. So I can see why now it is more common to hear about conflicts than it used to be. I don't think the conflicts themselves are more prevalent. I think they have always been there, just simmering under the surface, carefully packed away and stuffed down because too much was at stake to consider "letting the cat out of the bag" on a variety of religious topics.

[TranquilMind]

I sense two different topics here in your post. One is religious conflict . The other is young people admitting to their homosexual orientation. I would not have labelled the latter as the former. I can imagine other reasons why young people may have different religious opinions than their parents, and thought this is what you wanted to discuss.

 

Since you make this specifically about homosexuality and not a crisis of faith in the young adults:

One thing I see as a possible explanation for the larger number of people coming out as homosexuals is that this no longer carries the harsh stigma in society that it did decades ago. So I do not believe there are actually more gays now, just that more people admit to themselves and others that they are gay.

 

As for the school kids: I do not for a moment believe that 50% of a class are transgender or homosexual. These numbers seem way off. I do believe that, in some cases, young people who are confused and unhappy may look for an explanation in this area. Since the topic is now discussed more openly, I think more people explore the possibility whether their feelings of unhappiness and not fitting in could be caused by issues of sexual orientation or gender identification. I think for many, this will not turn out to be the answer.

 

Maybe you are right that it is two topics.  It is sounding to me as if only the parent in the above scenarios has the religious conflict.    The admission is related though in that the kids must be experiencing some cognitive dissonance because they know the faith teachings and/or they know that it is important to the parent. 

 

So I guess that is leading to a faith conflict, which seems to have been resolved (or not) in multiple ways, but it seems most often that the faith is more likely to be disposed of than the activities that conflict with it. 

 

Doesn't it seem to be an unusually large number or maybe they are just more vocal?    I'm not sure I believe that it is only a matter of the same number remaining silent before. 

 

Edited April 26, 2016 by TranquilMind

[justasque]

OP, I've seen estimates that somewhere around 2% to 2.5% of the population is homosexual or bisexual.  That's around one in forty-fifty.  So, every other typical classroom might have one kid, if that makes sense.  Now if you're on a discussion board, of course if a topic comes up, it will be mostly people who have some experience with the topic who will post, which can skew the perception of how many people are affected.   

 

My heart goes out to those parents who think they have somehow done something wrong, and to those kids who feel they must leave their religion or their parents over it.  The families I have seen who focus on love, on listening, on family, get through this best.

 

As to the third graders, that's really strange, and I would assume there is some kind of misunderstanding in there somewhere.

[TranquilMind]

I sense two different topics here in your post. One is religious conflict . The other is young people admitting to their homosexual orientation. I would not have labelled the latter as the former. I can imagine other reasons why young people may have different religious opinions than their parents, and thought this is what you wanted to discuss.

 

Since you make this specifically about homosexuality and not a crisis of faith in the young adults:

One thing I see as a possible explanation for the larger number of people coming out as homosexuals is that this no longer carries the harsh stigma in society that it did decades ago. So I do not believe there are actually more gays now, just that more people admit to themselves and others that they are gay.

 

As for the school kids: I do not for a moment believe that 50% of a class are transgender or homosexual. These numbers seem way off. I do believe that, in some cases, young people who are confused and unhappy may look for an explanation in this area. Since the topic is now discussed more openly, I think more people explore the possibility whether their feelings of unhappiness and not fitting in could be caused by issues of sexual orientation or gender identification. I think for many, this will not turn out to be the answer.

 

ETA: I feel for the parents in the OP because they somehow got saddled with the idea that they did something wrong that caused their children to be homosexuals.  It must be very sad and difficult for those parents who really believe this to be their fault. Parents who do not carry this baggage will have a much easier time accepting their children's sexual orientation - just like they would other attributes their kids were born with.

 

I don't believe that either, but I was just relaying what the teacher said.  I found it interesting for sure.   They were SO YOUNG, I was kind of shocked too.

 

Edited April 26, 2016 by TranquilMind

[TranquilMind]

I dunno, all of those examples sound like people who don't really understand what gay is (it's not a lack of religiosity, or bad parenting).

 

What kind of third grade teacher is asking the class all at once if they are gay?

 

...

 

But as a rule, religious differences with parents can be a conflict, or not a conflict. And as a rule, it's the parents who decide which way it goes.

I don't think the teacher flat out asked everyone that question.  I think a discussion just naturally arose but do not remember the context.  I will see if I can find that but it was some time ago. 

[mamiof5]

I'm not going to address the religion/parent etc part of it, just not going there. But I can't avoid but wonder why does any type of discussion regarding this belongs in a third grade classroom?? Also, with the broad acceptance of certain things it seems like in a way it has become the "popular" thing. Dd remembers many folks in highschool announcing publicly that they were gay, trasgenders, bi...and other terms that I don't even remember. Sometimes she said they weren't surprised (the students, teachers etc), but some other times it was very evident it was a popularity thing...just because it's the cool thing now. Some friends who work at schools and their kids go to school have also noticed this. So, I guess it's kind of hard to know now a days when someone truly is what they say, or are just trying to get attention, be popular etc? By no means I am saying it's always the case...but, in a 3rd grade class? Such high percentage? I can't avoid but wonder how many kids just answered certain way because someone else did. And again, just can't understand why a teacher would lead a discussion like that in a 3rd grade classroom.

[TranquilMind]

I agree completely.

 

In my own life, my parents have become increasingly more conservative even a fundamentalist recently, while dh and I are much more center/moderate both religiously and politically. My father has chosen to make this an issue of us disrespecting him, and in particular, "the way he raised me" except that in terms of how he raised me, he was pretty moderate back then.

 

At any rate, he and some of his relatives in the same age range have now resorted to insults, name calling, and snarky remarks aimed out our kids. It is sad because my dad has less than a year to live now, and frankly, we are distancing ourselves a lot. I haven't seen him in a week, and don't feel compelled to go visit either. He has someone there to take good care of him, so my obligation to him has been fulfilled.

 

Our college boy is probably going to turn out to be more progressive religiously and politically than we are. We love him enough, we value our relationship enough, to keep our mouths shut about it.

 

In ages past, it was culturally pretty unacceptable to go against parents even as adults, and in some cases, like issues of homosexuality and such, the penalties were horrid. So I can see why now it is more common to hear about conflicts than it used to be. I don't think the conflicts themselves are more prevalent. I think they have always been there, just simmering under the surface, carefully packed away and stuffed down because too much was at stake to consider "letting the cat out of the bag" on a variety of religious topics.

 

I don't really understand this.  What is your father's issue with you and your kids that he would resort to insults?  Political, like what candidates you like or what?  Or is it this issue? 

 

[regentrude]

Maybe you are right that it is two topics.  It is sounding to me as if only the parent in the above scenarios has the religious conflict.    The admission is related though in that the kids must be experiencing some cognitive dissonance because they know the faith teachings and/or they know that it is important to the parent.

 

Please, you are NOT really saying that gay Christians are experiencing a "cognitive dissonance", are you? There are many Christians who do not interpret scripture the way your particular brand of Christianity does.

 

 

So I guess that is leading to a faith conflict, which seems to have been resolved (or not) in multiple ways, but it seems most often that the faith is more likely to be disposed of than the activities that conflict with it. 

 

Being homosexual is not about "activities". It is about being the person they are. It would be very difficult to give up being the person one is to conform to a faith that makes it clear that the way one is is unacceptable.

 

 

Doesn't it seem to be an unusually large number or maybe they are just more vocal?    I'm not sure I believe that it is only a matter of the same number remaining silent before.

 

More vocal. Until a few decades ago, people risked criminal persecution for homosexuality. For the decades after, huge stigma.

So, many people suppressed their sexual orientation, married and had kids and hoped by acting heterosexual, it would all resolve itself. Unfortunately, it does not. Many people stayed unhappy in the closet. So now they can come out.

And yes, as I said before: there may be a small number of people who are still figuring out what is going on with them and may not actually be gay. But I don't think those will be the overwhelming numbers.

The gay people I know are just more comfortable with finally being able to admit it - because they are still being treated like people. Not by all, sadly, but by many.

Edited April 26, 2016 by regentrude

[TranquilMind]

I'm not going to address the religion/parent etc part of it, just not going there. But I can't avoid but wonder why does any type of discussion regarding this belongs in a third grade classroom?? Also, with the broad acceptance of certain things it seems like in a way it has become the "popular" thing. Dd remembers many folks in highschool announcing publicly that they were gay, trasgenders, bi...and other terms that I don't even remember. Sometimes she said they weren't surprised (the students, teachers etc), but some other times it was very evident it was a popularity thing...just because it's the cool thing now. Some friends who work at schools and their kids go to school have also noticed this. So, I guess it's kind of hard to know now a days when someone truly is what they say, or are just trying to get attention, be popular etc? By no means I am saying it's always the case...but, in a 3rd grade class? Such high percentage? I can't avoid but wonder how many kids just answered certain way because someone else did. And again, just can't understand why a teacher would lead a discussion like that in a 3rd grade classroom.

 

That's so weird.  It would have so NOT been the "cool thing" in my youth.  We'd have jumped off buildings before admitting stuff like that, I think. There was one guy in my high school, but nothing overt was ever said by anyone or to anyone, and though he was rather feminine, it was just not in our consciousness in those days in my small town.  It just was not a topic ever discussed; you really kept your business to yourself, whatever you were doing and with whom.  I only knew about him because he died of AIDS in the 80's and I saw the obituary with a partner listed.   I am pretty sure I never even heard the word until I was out of high school, archaic as that sounds today. 

 

I have no idea why such a discussion would arise in such a young age group, but I do suspect that some of the kids just agreed because their friends did and have no idea of what they are really saying.  Or maybe they do. 

 

Edited April 26, 2016 by TranquilMind

[justasque]

I think it is much easier to understand, if you spend some time - a lot of time - listening to the voices of the kids in these situations.  They don't want to choose between their parents and being gay, and they certainly don't want to choose between God and being gay.  But when the choice is set up that way, by their parents and/or their faith, they struggle, mightily, and in the end many feel choosing to accept being gay is a matter of sheer survival - something they must do in order to live an honest, honorable life, if that makes sense.  In that way, they are living out the morality their parents taught them.

I do think that gay and lesbian (and trans*) kids are more visible than they were even fifteen years ago.  There is much, much more support for them and their families to be visible now.  There is a much more honorable path for them now - civil marriage - than there was before.

 

[regentrude]

As for the "being cool" part: I do not really believe it is "cool" to be homosexual or - even more so - transgendered. Making yourself a target of taunts, ridicule and violence to appear "cool"? I don't think so.

[Katy]

Don't you think that is different though, conflicts one has because of being more or less conservative about an issue....say modern worship music vs. hymns type of people?   Or even instruments vs. no instruments in Mennonite congregations? 

Or the calling to be a pastor vs. not a pastor? I know in the generation before me, it was very desirable to have at least one kid of your large Catholic family be a priest or a nun, sort of an "inside line" to God, as it were. 

 

This is totally different in that there is no biblical proscription against not being a pastor or not being a nun or using modern music or instruments.   This is a direct conflict between faith and proscribed sexual behavior, the way those who believe those scriptures believe. 

 

So this is much different in kind than a mere conflict in styles, the way I'm reading it. 

 

 

 

I don't think it's that different when there are plenty of theologians online who say it's okay to be Christian and gay. People struggling with these issues Google and find theologians who teach that it really is only a matter of interpretation, not a matter of morality.  Who take Ephesians 5 to mean the law really is meant to serve us, not us the law.  Who take Matthew 19:12, when Jesus talked about how some people are born eunuchs to refer to people who were born gay and that it is okay.  Who interpret the thorn in Paul's flesh to mean that the struggle he couldn't pray away was being gay.

 

Now whether you interpret that it's okay to follow through with an act when one is born with the inclination or not is also a matter of interpretation.

 

I'm really glad that I wasn't born gay because I've come to the conclusion that I would choose to be celibate because of my faith.  But I've also come to the conclusion that if one of our children is gay we will love them and support them and look down on promiscuous and self-destructive behavior to exactly the same degree we do everyone else.  Their struggle is between them and God.  My main concern would be that they not throw out their relationship with God because of who they are.

 

ETA:  we would go to a wedding.  We would encourage them to find a church.  We would encourage them to read scripture.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Katy

[justasque]

That's so weird.  It would have so NOT been the "cool thing" in my youth.  We'd have jumped off buildings before admitting stuff like that, I think. There was one guy in my high school, but nothing overt was ever said by anyone or to anyone, and though he was rather feminine, it was just not in our consciousness in those days in my small town.  It just was not a topic ever discussed; you really kept your business to yourself, whatever you were doing and with whom.  I only knew about him because he died of AIDS in the 80's and I saw the obituary with a partner listed.   I am pretty sure I never even heard the word until I was out of high school, archaic as that sounds today. 

I have no idea why such a discussion would arise in such a young age group, but I do suspect that some of the kids just agreed because their friends did and have no idea of what they are really saying.  Or maybe they do. 

 

 

Unless your high school was teeny-tiny, there was more than one guy.  The others just weren't as easy to pick out, and they likely worked hard to make darn sure they weren't as easy to pick out.  If you've lived in a community where this has been pretty taboo even up until now, then you've probably been relatively unaware of the people you know who are gay/lesbian.  Even if young gay adults usually leave the community (so there are few if any gay adults), there will still be kids.

[Guest]

 We'd have jumped off buildings before admitting stuff like that, I think.

 

 

Yes, self harm and suicide are often the unfortunate outcomes of people being rejected by their faiths, families and peers because of their sexuality.

[TranquilMind]

Please, you are NOT really saying that gay Christians are experiencing a "cognitive dissonance", are you? There are many Christians who do not interpret scripture the way your particular brand of Christianity does.

 

 

 

Being homosexual is not about "activities". It is about being the person they are. It would be very difficult to give up being the person one is to conform to a faith that makes it clear that the way one is is unacceptable.

 

 

 

 

As to the first, yes, I am.  If you are raised in a faith that teaches that what you are doing is wrong - whatever that is, not just this - you are going to experience cognitive dissonance while you are doing it, until you reject either the action or the faith.  That's just common sense. 

 

As to the second, I stated that the faith was more likely to go than the activity that conflicts with it in this instance.  You can say it as you choose to say it.  Having blue eyes or black skin or red hair is who you are.   I see a distinction between what one is from what sexual activities one engages in, personally.  I am not my sexual activity.  I was not "a celibate" when I went years without engaging in any activity, because I felt it was wrong, and I decided God would have me wait for my husband. (An aside:  I remember the doctor laughed at me, thinking I could not possibly be truthful about this, but I was).   I was just a person who didn't happen to be engaging in sex.    I just don't frame it that way.  You are free to state this as you like and that isn't really the issue here, but I thought I would address it since it appears you are correcting me.

 

We choose what is most important to us.  I did, you did, we all do.    

 

[TranquilMind]

Yes, self harm and suicide are often the unfortunate outcomes of people being rejected by their faiths, families and peers because of their sexuality.

 

Well, I was hyperbolizing, of course, and we would be unlikely to have literally jumped off buildings but it was just a different time when there was a sense of privacy about one's intimate affairs that no longer seems to exist. 

 

These undesirable outcomes can occur when any sort of dissonance exists between what one is doing and what one believes.  Affairs, fraud, embezzlement, molestation, whatever. 

 

If there is no dissonance, there is no problem. 

[Guest]

 

 

These undesirable outcomes can occur when any sort of dissonance exists between what one is doing and what one believes.  Affairs, fraud, embezzlement, molestation, whatever. 

 

 

 

what

[Caroline]

That's so weird. It would have so NOT been the "cool thing" in my youth. We'd have jumped off buildings before admitting stuff like that, I think. There was one guy in my high school, but nothing overt was ever said by anyone or to anyone, and though he was rather feminine, it was just not in our consciousness in those days in my small town. It just was not a topic ever discussed; you really kept your business to yourself, whatever you were doing and with whom. I only knew about him because he died of AIDS in the 80's and I saw the obituary with a partner listed. I am pretty sure I never even heard the word until I was out of high school, archaic as that sounds today.

I have no idea why such a discussion would arise in such a young age group, but I do suspect that some of the kids just agreed because their friends did and have no idea of what they are really saying. Or maybe they do.

 

There still lots of kids and adults who commit suicide rather than admit to being gay.

[TranquilMind]

I think it is much easier to understand, if you spend some time - a lot of time - listening to the voices of the kids in these situations.  They don't want to choose between their parents and being gay, and they certainly don't want to choose between God and being gay.  But when the choice is set up that way, by their parents and/or their faith, they struggle, mightily, and in the end many feel choosing to accept being gay is a matter of sheer survival - something they must do in order to live an honest, honorable life, if that makes sense.  In that way, they are living out the morality their parents taught them.

 

I do think that gay and lesbian (and trans*) kids are more visible than they were even fifteen years ago.  There is much, much more support for them and their families to be visible now.  There is a much more honorable path for them now - civil marriage - than there was before.

 

 

 

So you are saying that they are actually adhering to the code of their faith principles at least of honesty, even if they reject something else?  Hmm, interesting.  I had not thought of it that way, though I have heard a few kids talk, but mostly flippantly, not enough to get to the deeper conflicts, if any. 

[Guest]

Well, I was hyperbolizing, of course,

 

 

Well, I wasn't. Kids (and adults) literally kill themselves sometimes when faced with the kind of rejection we are referring to here. Not to even mention the harassment from outside quarters.

 

It is QUITE serious.

[QueenCat]

I don't believe that either, but I was just relaying what the teacher said.  I found it interesting for sure.   They were SO YOUNG, I was kind of shocked too.

 

 

Why were the children being asked this? That seems kind of bizarre.

[TranquilMind]

what

 

Argh, sorry...didn't mean to be unclear.  I was thinking in particular about all of the priests and other sorts of "men of the cloth" who are speaking Jesus out of one side of their mouths while doing this in the dark. 

 

Yes, I think that would lead to dissonance.  At least I hope so! 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I predict this thread is not going to end up in a good place.

 

So I'm going to give another, hopefully less contentious example, that might also illustrate the point of this discussion.  A family member in his 60s once told me that in the third grade he attempted to take his life.  (Long long story short it turned out he has a mental illness.  A fairly common one.)  So anyway, his parents reacted to that by treating it as if he had sinned and his "treatment" and their "reaction" was that he should go to a priest and confess his sins.  Now I think many people would think what on earth...but yeah less was known about childhood mental illness then.  Parents were also much more the ultimate authority figures than I think they are now.  The most valued authority was the elders or the parents.  Even if their views were a bit dated.  So that goes for religion. 

Now, I think it's not so much that way and that children's feelings are taken more into account.  They are considered to be sooner more autonomous individuals with the right to their own views, beliefs, and individual differences.  They are also being protected more.  So a child telling his parent now that he is XYZ that is against the parent's beliefs is not as scary as it might have been years ago. 

 

 

[TranquilMind]

Why were the children being asked this? That seems kind of bizarre.

I don't think they were asked...I think a discussion just evolved.  Not sure, but that was the way I perceived it when I read it, especially as the teacher seemed shocked herself. 

[TranquilMind]

Well, I wasn't. Kids (and adults) literally kill themselves sometimes when faced with the kind of rejection we are referring to here. Not to even mention the harassment from outside quarters.

 

It is QUITE serious.

 

Ok.  I understand what you are saying, and I regret being flippant with such an example.  My apologies.

[SparklyUnicorn]

To add even though the reaction of the parents might be as harsh, the kid will often have access to support somewhere.  School, for example. 

 

Of course this is going to vary from place to place, etc.

 

 

[Tsuga]

 

 

A mom on one forum said she had about 20 third grade school kids in her class and during discussion, 10 children of the 20 claimed to be bi or trans, and even this young teacher was pretty shocked at that.  How is this possible? Is there some endocrine disruption thing going on, I wonder?

 

I don't believe it. I believe that person was a troll trying to stir stuff up.

 

Not that I don't believe that people can be gay or trans or know it at the age of 8 or 9, but that that rate is simply unbelievable.

 

I find many of those posts not to be "conflicts" but simply parental disagreement with cultural change.

 

I cannot put a lot of stock in an online discussion board in which there are posts about 50% of a class of 8 - 9 year olds claiming to be trans or gay. That to me is absurd. And once again... I look at these statistics all the time, live in gay central. In our destination location for gay people, the highest poll we get for any program (and mind you our population responding to these questions is almost exclusively over 18) is 15%. That would be for an arts program in a neighborhood which is known for its gay-friendly environment. I just cannot believe that anyone really witnessed what that mom claimed to witness.

[TranquilMind]

I predict this thread is not going to end up in a good place.

 

So I'm going to give another, hopefully less contentious example, that might also illustrate the point of this discussion.  A family member in his 60s once told me that in the third grade he attempted to take his life.  (Long long story short it turned out he has a mental illness.  A fairly common one.)  So anyway, his parents reacted to that by treating it as if he had sinned and his "treatment" and their "reaction" was that he should go to a priest and confess his sins.  Now I think many people would think what on earth...but yeah less was known about childhood mental illness then.  Parents were also much more the ultimate authority figures than I think they are now.  The most valued authority was the elders or the parents.  Even if their views were a bit dated.  So that goes for religion. 

Now, I think it's not so much that way and that children's feelings are taken more into account.  They are considered to be sooner more autonomous individuals with the right to their own views, beliefs, and individual differences.  They are also being protected more.  So a child telling his parent now that he is XYZ that is against the parent's beliefs is not as scary as it might have been years ago. 

 

Well, I hope it doesn't end in a bad place, and attempted to head that off in the beginning.  But then I can respond rationally and not get enraged when others see it differently, and I trust other adults can do the same.   

I didn't think you were contentious. 

 

I'm sorry about your relative.  That should not have happened, of course, though I sure hope the parents meant well at the time.   I always perceived priests as even more powerful than parents, so if the priest had told the parents that your relative was depressed or whatever, maybe that would have been treated differently, since when the priest spoke, it was as if it came from on high in those days. 

 

That loss of parental authority/autonomy has been a doubled-edged sword, in some ways.  True, an abused child has a much better chance of speaking up and being believed, which is a great thing, no doubt.  A kid in church need not fear the same way if he says (truthfully) that Father so and so did something inappropriate.   But the bad thing is that some kids today have threatened parents with calling the police if they are spanked or the parents take away the cell phone or whatever.   That part hasn't been as positive. 

[Guest]

Argh, sorry...didn't mean to be unclear.  I was thinking in particular about all of the priests and other sorts of "men of the cloth" who are speaking Jesus out of one side of their mouths while doing this in the dark. 

 

Yes, I think that would lead to dissonance.  At least I hope so! 

 

Oh man. Yes that makes sense, thanks for clarifying!

[TranquilMind]

I don't believe it. I believe that person was a troll trying to stir stuff up.

 

Not that I don't believe that people can be gay or trans or know it at the age of 8 or 9, but that that rate is simply unbelievable.

 

I find many of those posts not to be "conflicts" but simply parental disagreement with cultural change.

 

I cannot put a lot of stock in an online discussion board in which there are posts about 50% of a class of 8 - 9 year olds claiming to be trans or gay. That to me is absurd. And once again... I look at these statistics all the time, live in gay central. In our destination location for gay people, the highest poll we get for any program (and mind you our population responding to these questions is almost exclusively over 18) is 15%. That would be for an arts program in a neighborhood which is known for its gay-friendly environment. I just cannot believe that anyone really witnessed what that mom claimed to witness.

 

That I don't know.  The teacher sounded genuinely perplexed to me, so I did not read it as a troll post, though I guess the possibility exists.  I think she concluded that the kids just really didn't understand fully what they were saying at that age, or maybe just wanted to agree with their friends, as I recall.  Maybe.

 

I agree it was absurd but I was just sharing something I had read. 

Your distinction is unclear to me.  If parents disagree with cultural change, then just the parents have a conflict between their faith teachings and the trend of popular culture.  But I wastalking about cognitive dissonance of the one who is simultaneously attempting to identify with a faith and engage in things that the faith proscribes.  That is the conflict I was talking about.

 

 

Edited April 26, 2016 by TranquilMind

[QueenCat]

After a recent interaction with a religious neighbor who is very upset by similar incidents in her family, the abrupt exponential rise of this activity perplexes me.  What is going on?

 

I had no idea that this seems to be happening more and more, sometimes with multiple children.

 

{snip}

 

{snip}

 

I feel for them.  Their faiths teach them that same sex relationships are wrong, and so to affirm the child's decision- which the child demands or parents will be cut off - means to contravene their own faith which predates the child.  A Hobson's choice indeed.

 

Some have jettisoned their faith.  Some have jettisoned their kid.  Some kids have jettisoned their parents.  None of this is right. 

 

Things like this have to be unusual (parent talking here), right? :  

 

"My son was  a married man with three children. He suddenly said he was gay years into the marriage.  I was so confused.  How had this happened?  Then, my daughter in law packed her bags and left my son because he had committed adultery with another man. It was horrible.  But then they reconciled, and it seemed all would be well.  They were together again, happy, and had another child.  It was all going to be all right.

 

Not too long after the birth of my latest grandchild, my son told me he and his wife would divorce because he wanted to be with a man.  I finally broke down and talked to my pastor, something I was afraid to do. Thankfully, my pastor told me that I should continue to love him and pray for him and to know hope always exists.   My grandchildren did not deserve to go through this."

 

 

{snip}

 

 

Again, just interested in the topic in general and why it is so prevalent if it is, not in attacks for daring to mention this reality for some families- apparently more than I would have imagined.    I really do see both sides and there is a lot of pain there. 

 

 

I think a major thing that is going on is that when this man got married and started having children, it was extremely difficult to "come out", to live a normal life as a gay man or as a lesbian....... society expected you to get married, have kids, suppress the homosexuality, which is what most homosexuals did. Now, people don't have to live a lie (in most places in the US, but you can get away from those places if you need to as an adult) so they are being true to themselves and getting out of the marriages, etc where they didn't really belong. For those just now hitting adulthood, I think we will see less marriages that get broken for this reason as less will feel compelled to hide in a marriage with someone of the opposite gender when they are gay or lesbian. At least this is what I seem to be seeing, so I hope I've explained it well.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Well, I hope it doesn't end in a bad place, and attempted to head that off in the beginning.  But then I can respond rationally and not get enraged when others see it differently, and I trust other adults can do the same.   

I didn't think you were contentious. 

 

I'm sorry about your relative.  That should not have happened, of course, though I sure hope the parents meant well at the time.   I always perceived priests as even more powerful than parents, so if the priest had told the parents that your relative was depressed or whatever, maybe that would have been treated differently, since when the priest spoke, it was as if it came from on high in those days. 

 

That loss of parental authority/autonomy has been a doubled-edged sword, in some ways.  True, an abused child has a much better chance of speaking up and being believed, which is a great thing, no doubt.  A kid in church need not fear the same way if he says (truthfully) that Father so and so did something inappropriate.   But the bad thing is that some kids today have threatened parents with calling the police if they are spanked or the parents take away the cell phone or whatever.   That part hasn't been as positive. 

 

The priest did not.  I'll chalk that up him just not knowing either.  But today if a parent reacted that way, their arse would be potentially dragged through the mud (and rightfully so). 

 

I think the same is happening with other things.  Being gay isn't disagreement with religion.  You are gay or you are not gay.  A person cannot help that.  I know the whole well they don't have to act on it thing.  Whatever.  They are getting bolder and rejecting that probably because they are getting more support. 

 

And I don't entirely not understand the POV of the parents in these situations.  I'm a parent with my own beliefs, hangups, etc.  And no my kids don't always thrill me in this department.  But I have a choice.  I can react harshly and tell them I'm right and they are wrong and I reject their ideas and have a crappy relationship with them.  Or I can treat them like the individual people they are and love them for who they are and not who I want them to be.  And no, I'm not always 100% great at that.

 

I do agree there has been some "cons" to the loss of parental authority/autonomy.  For sure. 

[justasque]

As to the first, yes, I am.  If you are raised in a faith that teaches that what you are doing is wrong - whatever that is, not just this - you are going to experience cognitive dissonance while you are doing it, until you reject either the action or the faith.  That's just common sense. 

 

As to the second, I stated that the faith was more likely to go than the activity that conflicts with it in this instance.  You can say it as you choose to say it.  Having blue eyes or black skin or red hair is who you are.   I see a distinction between what one is from what sexual activities one engages in, personally.  I am not my sexual activity.  I was not "a celibate" when I went years without engaging in any activity, because I felt it was wrong, and I decided God would have me wait for my husband. (An aside:  I remember the doctor laughed at me, thinking I could not possibly be truthful about this, but I was).   I was just a person who didn't happen to be engaging in sex.    I just don't frame it that way.  You are free to state this as you like and that isn't really the issue here, but I thought I would address it since it appears you are correcting me.

 

We choose what is most important to us.  I did, you did, we all do.    

 

 

I think it's very important to understand that being gay does not equal having sex.  The young gay people who I've listened to over the years came to the understanding that they were gay long before they had a sexual relationship of any kind.  In much the same way, really, that the heterosexual young people I know have crushed on people of the opposite sex years before even going on a friendly date.  

 

Similarly, you can hold on to the values of chastity before marriage and still be gay; this can be an honorable route for gay Christians to pursue.

 

Well, I was hyperbolizing, of course, and we would be unlikely to have literally jumped off buildings but it was just a different time when there was a sense of privacy about one's intimate affairs that no longer seems to exist. 

 

These undesirable outcomes can occur when any sort of dissonance exists between what one is doing and what one believes.  Affairs, fraud, embezzlement, molestation, whatever. 

 

If there is no dissonance, there is no problem. 

 

I think there is some truth to this; many gay folks feel that an honorable path, including honesty about their relationship with their partner (particularly honesty towards family members) and civil marriage, is a better choice than trying to pretend to be someone they are not.  This path can be walked without the 

pain and heartbreak that "affairs, fraud, embezzlement, molestation, whatever" can cause.

 

 

So you are saying that they are actually adhering to the code of their faith principles at least of honesty, even if they reject something else?  Hmm, interesting.  I had not thought of it that way, though I have heard a few kids talk, but mostly flippantly, not enough to get to the deeper conflicts, if any. 

 

Yes, this is EXACTLY what I have heard straight from the mouths of gay kids who are struggling to find the right, moral path.  It's not something you'll hear in a casual context.  It's something you'll hear if you have a long-time relationship with a gay kid who feels they can be honest with you about their struggles, and that you are there simply to listen and to love them as they figure out what is right.

[TranquilMind]

Unless your high school was teeny-tiny, there was more than one guy.  The others just weren't as easy to pick out, and they likely worked hard to make darn sure they weren't as easy to pick out.  If you've lived in a community where this has been pretty taboo even up until now, then you've probably been relatively unaware of the people you know who are gay/lesbian.  Even if young gay adults usually leave the community (so there are few if any gay adults), there will still be kids.

 

Well, that is simply my recollection after many decades, that there was the one guy.  This guy was the closest to overt that we had and he remained silent about it, so if there were others, no one knew it.

 

[KungFuPanda]

I think it's because there is no stigma to being gay with this current generation of kids. They even see it as cool. So, whether they're gay or not, they feel free to experiment with different identities until one feels right. Some are sure and some are trying to figure themselves out.

 

A generation ago the social price would be too high for this type of exploration and even kids who were SURE they were gay probably wished they weren't so life would be easier. Today's kids didn't live through those struggles so they are comfortable with a wide array of choices. It's like interracial marriage in that your grandparents might whisper awkwardly, but it's no longer a big deal.

[luuknam]

Not sure about 8yos, but I've heard 5yos say they want to marry so-and-so when they grow up. Usually their best friend of the opposite gender. When told about the existence of gay marriage, some of those 5yos switch to their best friend of the same gender (who may very well be a much closer friend at that time then their best friend of the opposite gender is). I've also heard preschoolers say they're going to marry their mom/dad when they grow up.

 

At 8yo, I'd think most kids would have a bit more of a clue, but in certain circumstances, I could maybe see them acting just like 5yos in this regard. 95% will probably grow up to be straight, cisgender adults.

[TranquilMind]

I think a major thing that is going on is that when this man got married and started having children, it was extremely difficult to "come out", to live a normal life as a gay man or as a lesbian....... society expected you to get married, have kids, suppress the homosexuality, which is what most homosexuals did. Now, people don't have to live a lie (in most places in the US, but you can get away from those places if you need to as an adult) so they are being true to themselves and getting out of the marriages, etc where they didn't really belong. For those just now hitting adulthood, I think we will see less marriages that get broken for this reason as less will feel compelled to hide in a marriage with someone of the opposite gender when they are gay or lesbian. At least this is what I seem to be seeing, so I hope I've explained it well.

 

But what about what the spouse and kids?  Is this ok to dump them, simply because it is more acceptable today? 

 

Imagine being that person.  "Honey, by the way, these 19 years have been great, but I just have to be with Fred now, and kids, I will see you when I'm not busy on the weekend."

 

 

 

I went through something similarly painful in my childhood (not this specific thing, but still bad), and believe me...it has lifelong effects. 

 

Edited April 26, 2016 by TranquilMind

[TranquilMind]

I think it's because there is no stigma to being gay with this current generation of kids. They even see it as cool. So, whether they're gay or not, they feel free to experiment with different identities until one feels right. Some are sure and some are trying to figure themselves out.

 

A generation ago the social price would be too high for this type of exploration and even kids who were SURE they were gay probably wished they weren't so life would be easier. Today's kids didn't live through those struggles so they are comfortable with a wide array of choices. It's like interracial marriage in that your grandparents might whisper awkwardly, but it's no longer a big deal.

 

There really isn't any comparison at all, in a faith context.

[justasque]

As for the "being cool" part: I do not really believe it is "cool" to be homosexual or - even more so - transgendered. Making yourself a target of taunts, ridicule and violence to appear "cool"? I don't think so.

 

It is so very, very not "cool" or in any way easy to be trans*.  The trans kids I know have not had an easy time of it, at all. Not at all.

[regentrude]

And I don't entirely not understand the POV of the parents in these situations.  I'm a parent with my own beliefs, hangups, etc.  And no my kids don't always thrill me in this department.  But I have a choice.  I can react harshly and tell them I'm right and they are wrong and I reject their ideas and have a crappy relationship with them.  Or I can treat them like the individual people they are and love them for who they are and not who I want them to be.  And no, I'm not always 100% great at that.

 

I guess we cannot fully understand because we are not living in an environment that tells us over and over again that being gay is a bad choice, a character flaw, a sin, and that we must safeguard our children against this evil.

We would be heartbroken if our children turned out criminals, right? Some people view homosexuality in a similar vein.

We are lucky because we see it as something that just "is" - like brown eyes. But parents whose family, friends and church tell them that homosexuality is a matter of choice and that making this choice is a bad thing cannot as easily accept their gay child because for them, it would mean choosing between their religious views and their kid.

[TranquilMind]

 And no my kids don't always thrill me in this department.  But I have a choice.  I can react harshly and tell them I'm right and they are wrong and I reject their ideas and have a crappy relationship with them.  Or I can treat them like the individual people they are and love them for who they are and not who I want them to be.  And no, I'm not always 100% great at that.

 

 

 

No one is great at this.  I know I'm not.  It's the hardest thing ever.  Not sure how my mom mastered the art of keeping her mouth shut and giving the noncommittal smile.  Wish I could be that person now. 

 

She was a master at it.

[Tanaqui]

But what about what the spouse and kids?  Is this ok to dump them, simply because it is more acceptable today? 

 

Imagine being that person.  "Honey, by the way, these 19 years have been great, but I just have to be with Fred now, and kids, I will see you when I'm not busy on the weekend."

 

People divorce for all sorts of reasons. It doesn't necessarily mean that you only see the kids "when you're not busy on the weekend". It's not actually better for the kids to grow up with two parents trapped in a loveless marriage.

 

[justasque]

Well, that is simply my recollection after many decades, that there was the one guy.  This guy was the closest to overt that we had and he remained silent about it, so if there were others, no one knew it.

 

 

Yes, the others likely kept it very, very quiet and left town as soon as they were able.  Things are different now. 

 

 

But what about what the spouse and kids?  Is this ok to dump them, simply because it is more acceptable today? 

 

Imagine being that person.  "Honey, by the way, these 19 years have been great, but I just have to be with Fred now, and kids, I will see you when I'm not busy on the weekend."

 

 

 

I went through something similarly painful in my childhood (not this specific thing, but still bad), and believe me...it has lifelong effects. 

 

 

It is a very, very difficult situation to be in, for both husband and wife, as well as the kids.  

 

It's one reason why young people of today want to get it right the first time - to avoid all of the heartbreak and pain that comes when you marry someone because you think you have to, or you are supposed to, or you have no other honorable choice.  

[Tsuga]

That I don't know.  The teacher sounded genuinely perplexed to me, so I did not read it as a troll post, though I guess the possibility exists.  I think she concluded that the kids just really didn't understand fully what they were saying at that age, or maybe just wanted to agree with their friends, as I recall.  Maybe.

 

I agree it was absurd but I was just sharing something I had read. 

Your distinction is unclear to me.  If parents disagree with cultural change, then just the parents have a conflict between their faith teachings and the trend of popular culture.  But I wastalking about cognitive dissonance of the one who is simultaneously attempting to identify with a faith and engage in things that the faith proscribes.  That is the conflict I was talking about.

 

I don't know of any faith that does not allow you to treat your children civilly and with respect and love even when you disagree with them.

 

At absolute worst you can tell your child you love them no matter what and not discuss anyone's opinion on the matter.

 

 

 

 

"Honey, by the way, these 19 years have been great, but I just have to be with Fred now, and kids, I will see you when I'm not busy on the weekend."

 

 

Divorce is so common that divorce due to being gay is hardly the issue you're talking about.

 

And you don't have to be a weekend-only parent just because you are divorced.

 

 

My father did that to my mother. My ex-husband did that to me. Neither are gay. My partner is not gay but he made a commitment to be a full parent to his kids and was the custodial parent and then had shared residence with their mom after his divorce.

 

It's not okay to dump someone, or beat them, or cheat on them. Ever. Gay or not. However such things happen among straight and gay couples.