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Boy Scout troops (BSA moms chime in)


DawnM
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UGH.

 

We have been in the same troop for 10 years.  Change is hard.

 

We now need for my youngest to find a new troop.  Older 2 are finishing and have Eagle.

 

We visited one last night.  They kept saying over and over again, "It is boy lead, it is boy lead."

 

Most parents dropped off.  There were about 40 boys and about 6 adults in the room.  There was a guest speaker.  3 of the boys out of his line of sight could not shut up the entire time.  They had their own sidebar conversation and laughing and to me it was just RUDE.

 

Then came closing ceremonies.  The older boys were using their lanyards to twirl over and over again, hitting their friends, etc....they thought it was funny.

 

They also split the boys up by grade.  So, each patrol was a grade level.  That seemed really odd to me.  We have always had mixed ages so the older boys could help the younger boys.  

 

I know we walked away thinking, "This isn't the troop for us."  But I am curious what those of you who have your boys in troops would think.  Am I over-reacting?

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Not over reacting.  We visited several that were various forms of "boy-led", and they're not all equal.  My son stumbled on one that he observed at camp and switched over because it had all the things he was looking for: capable scout master, true boy led troop (scoutmaster was there to guide and empower the boys, not take over or make up unnecessary rules), and small.  We've learned about 20-30 is MAX for a well run troop here.  Bigger than that and a lot gets lost in the shuffle unless the scoutmaster is amazing!

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Sound like the "boys who lead" aren't doing much to lead the boys (and maintain behavior).

 

Re: split-by-grade...I do know that some troops form a new patrol each time they have a new group bridge up from cub scouts. I've heard the argument about them fostering lifetime bonds as they grow in scouts together. I think with the right group of boys and sufficient active mentoring from the more senior patrols it can work. However, our troop tried it one year and it was a dismal failure, partly because the new patrol was dominated by some awful kids.

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Not over reacting.  We visited several that were various forms of "boy-led", and they're not all equal.  My son stumbled on one that he observed at camp and switched over because it had all the things he was looking for: capable scout master, true boy led troop (scoutmaster was there to guide and empower the boys, not take over or make up unnecessary rules), and small.  We've learned about 20-30 is MAX for a well run troop here.  Bigger than that and a lot gets lost in the shuffle unless the scoutmaster is amazing!

 

That makes sense.  

 

We are going to try to a new one, I am trying to get Dh to take him this Thur to check it out.  I am not in town this Thur and next Thur I have something to do with the older son, so I can't go.

 

They look a bit smaller but their website looks better organized.  

 

There is a fine balance between well organized and controlling I think.

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One thing I would suggest having your ds do is make a list of what he expects in a scout troop.  We visited a few that were lots of fun looking, but when ds compared to his goals and expectations they fell short -like, looking at their Eagle wall: one went from having 2-4 a year to 1 every 3 years.  It said a lot about the turn of leadership here.  Then again, we visited one where it seemed like every boy made it: again, says a lot about the leadership.  Or he would ask to see their calendar for the next month and they wouldn't be prepared for more than the week at hand.  Asking when CoH are, merit badge guidelines, etc...all should be thought about and interviewed.

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I have done the researching.  He just turned 12 and although he is mature for his age, he really only has "does a lot of campouts" on his list.  

 

I can see their schedules online and am only going to the ones that look like they are organized and have COH on their calendars, etc.....

 

But they ALL claim things that may or may not be true, so just interviewing isn't going to help us much.  

 

We knew two boys last night, we talked to them before attending.  Neither boy mentioned any of what we saw, so my guess is that to them, it isn't an issue.

 

We have to actually go and experience it to really see it.  

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My son just crossed over in Dec so I'm pretty green but I wouldn't be impressed by that either. Our own Troop could be more organized(then again we are coming from a Pack that was exceptionally well organized and quite spoiled) but we certainly have well more than a week lead time. We've got a calendar for the next 2monthsnow. I'd not be a fan of age only patrols, at all, I like the idea of them mixing together. They aren't as behaved as I'd like but when it comes time for ceremonies and such I've been impressed. If you've got several to choose from I see no reason not to keep looking. Hopefully you find one better run that is also a good fit.

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Not over-reacting. Keep looking. Our trip had the first year bits in one patrol led by older boys with the intent of getting them through 2nd class in the first year. After that they split into established patrols. It sets my teeth to see boys behaving rudely during meeting, but as long as the percentage is low I can let it go.

 

ETA: looking at Soror's post made me think that my ds also recently crossed-over, but from an almost non-existent den and crazy wild pack, so this troop is incredibly organized and active by comparison!

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UGH.

 

We have been in the same troop for 10 years.  Change is hard.

 

We now need for my youngest to find a new troop.  Older 2 are finishing and have Eagle.

 

We visited one last night.  They kept saying over and over again, "It is boy lead, it is boy lead."

 

Most parents dropped off.  There were about 40 boys and about 6 adults in the room.  There was a guest speaker.  3 of the boys out of his line of sight could not shut up the entire time.  They had their own sidebar conversation and laughing and to me it was just RUDE.

 

Then came closing ceremonies.  The older boys were using their lanyards to twirl over and over again, hitting their friends, etc....they thought it was funny.

 

They also split the boys up by grade.  So, each patrol was a grade level.  That seemed really odd to me.  We have always had mixed ages so the older boys could help the younger boys.  

 

I know we walked away thinking, "This isn't the troop for us."  But I am curious what those of you who have your boys in troops would think.  Am I over-reacting?

 

 

Boy led is different than foolish behavior being allowed.

 

I will say the 11-12 year olds are almost always squirrely.  True story - I think it's the age.  They require a lot more reigning in.

I would be looking at the oldest tier of boys and seeing how they lead a meeting, how they teach the other boys and go from there.  If there is a spirit of leadership and mentorship among the oldest that will give you the best insight as to what kind of environment the troop really has.  You will see it in 1-2 older boys almost anywhere, but if, as a larger whole, you see mentorship and boy leadership in the group, then that's what you're looking for.

 

You also might want to see if there are Trail Life groups in your area.  Our Boy Scout troop transitioned to Trail Life this January as did many troops.  

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No, we want boy scouts.  Older two have Eagle Scout and youngest has his sights on Eagle.  

 

And my 12 year old is an exceptional kid.  He is not squirrely and wants more maturity.  He is the one who pointed it out.  He made it to 2nd class in one year, all on his own, we have not prodded.  He also has 8 merit badges and his goal is to have 6 more by the end of the summer.  He is signed up for 5 at camp.  By then, he will also have half of his Eagle required badges complete.

 

The troop we visited last night had 2 to 3 boys per patrol above 7th grade, so that tells me that all those 5th-7th graders are gung ho and the older boys leave and don't stick around.

 

I am glad I went in.  If I had just sent him I wouldn't have had a clear picture when he said he didn't want to go back.

 

Part of me knows he really doesn't want to change troops so he may not like anything for a while.  

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Probably based on our experience, but I'd want a smaller Troop.  Ours was 15-20 boys and it seemed a better mix.  The patrols were mixed-age which was great because it gave older boys a chance to mentor and younger boys somebody to look up to.  Also in patrol vs. patrol events, made more sense.  Ours had some aspects that were boy lead....but there were always highly involved troop leaders to keep things on track.

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My DS's troop (he's new to the troop) is also "boy lead", but does not seem to have the behavioral problems you are describing.  But who knows what a longer time there will bring?  We are new and I get info filtered through DH and DS.  Ours also divvies up the boys via grade.  In the case you are describing, the adults need to step in at that point, otherwise, why have adults there, you know?  Maybe you hit an off night and should visit again, but if your gut says no-go, then no-go it should be.

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when my son was moving up to BS, we visited 3 troops.  All the Webelos were going to the same troop that all the boys go to from our sub scout group.  DS wanted something smaller, less 'crazy'.  

 

One group had too much parent interaction.  Very large, still 'crazy'.  But the parents controlled everything.  

 

Next group was smaller, boy led.  But they were struggling.  They weren't large enough we felt. DS chose this group b/c it was small.  While we offered to volunteer we were told to just sit in on committee.  When another man came that summer with a boy my son's age, they made him Troopmaster. My son left after a horrific camp experience.  (his words)  We went to everything hoping to fit in, but there needed to be some changes, and this group wasn't wiling to make them.  

 

We moved over to Trail Life.  I see the same issues there as we saw in Boy Scouts.  Boy led often means they don't do anything.  Or they do the same thing over and over.  Trips are put together last minute.  Or it's too controlled.  My DH just stepped up to lead my son's group or they would have shut down.  So a trip with 9 people this weekend....just became 5.  Us and another family.  It's not a good sign for the troop.  It's not a priority.  

 

If I had to do it all over again, I would look for troops with parents present, but not running the show.  I would ask the older boys about their responsibilities.  This would tell you if they run it or not.  And find out what they had done in the last 6 months.  And if told they need volunteers but they keep tell you personally to just be present(but still put out a call for volunteers), leave.  We had BS and TL troops do this.  Dh is there all the time, ready to help and take a leader position.  Always told no.  But then every parent meeting is begging to get volunteers.  

 

My son loves the camping.  I hope he can find some friends in the next year or two here that just go out backpacking.  I would let him go at this point.  He's skilled to handle things.  He just needs some good friends to go with.  We haven't ever found a troop we loved except our Webelos experience.  We are trying now to keep his TL group going, but it takes everyone to make it a success.  

 

good luck

 

 

 

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My oldest (16) has now had 6 Scoutmasters.  Two back home, and a four here (we've been here 2 1/2 years).

 

There are days, I really, really miss our old Troop.  It was Boy Led, but adult-guided to help the boys learn the skills they needed in order to LEAD.

 

  • Our first scoutmaster was here for our first four months.  We were new, but there didn't seem to be struggles between the SM Team, Committee and Boys.
  • Our second scoutmaster should have been fired.  It was "my way or the highway," a barrage of "no's" bullying tactics and threats against the boys.  Boys were simply "expected to know" how to lead.  When they screwed up, they were dressed down, and threatened with being fired (or fired).  We heaved a huge sigh of relief when he left. We didn't have huge behavioral problems.  They boys were just afraid (or they quit).
  • Our third scoutmaster was the complete opposite.  Granted, he's young himself, but easily swayed by what "boy led" should mean.  Essentially, all of the SM's now simply "hang back" and make sure the boys don't get hurt or hurt one another.  Still no coaching on leadership.  If boys screw up, they are dressed down (but not threatened).  My son is one of two boys over 15 in the troop.  The big complaint is that the younger boys just don't listen.  They are a wild bunch!  We have lots of behavioral problems now (to the point, even my younger son, who is no shining star himself, sees it as a big problem).
  • Our new SM just started taking over, he officially takes over 20 May.  I'm hopeful that his grey hair is a sign that he has a clue... at least he has an understanding of Woodbadge, SM Training, and seems to be willing to let our trained women (we have four women who are trained SMs, but have not been allowed in to really assist the past two years) help with the SM coaching/merit badge counseling, camping events.

So much depends upon the SM Team.  As I have learned, an SM Team dedicated to coaching scouts (not hanging back as the safety patrol, or taking over every aspect) has produced the best overall Troop experiences we've had.  The SM's should be guiding (through thoughtful open-ended questions, if possible) the boys in how to lead, providing leadership training (beyond EDGE), and opportunities to succeed and fail -- at times, that means offering suggestions to the PLC to help them down the right track.

 

Case in point:  During our 2nd SM's reign of terror, the boys were having difficulty planning camp menus (it was taking too long).  He "fixed" the problem by declaring that the boys could no longer work on their menus during Troop Meetings, and must now work on them on their own time.  But, the real problem is that the boys (young, for the most part), didn't have a real clue about what they could make at camp.  A guiding hand would try to steer the PLC to the understanding of the problem (hopefully, they would realize it on their own, but often not), and then help steer them to some ways to fix the problem (How can we get the boys more comfortable planning camp menus?  How can we get the boys more comfortable cooking outdoors?  How can we get the boys more prepared to finish their menus in the time you have set aside during the meetings?)

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Thanks.

 

I am trying to get my DH to take him to another troop Thur.

 

The one thing we are pretty adamant about is finding one that is within a 5 mile radius max.  So far I have found 5 of them, so we do have some choices.

 

Our current troop is 22 miles away and I am so ready to NOT commute that far anymore.

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You're not overreacting.

 

My son (Life Scout, Order of the Arrow) is in a moderate size troop that is boy led, but has an excellent team of adult leaders who are great at facilitating without hand holding. Our SMs tend to be with the troop for years, and we've got one senior adult leader that recently received his 70th year in Scouting award. I think long term, stable leadership is a really good sign.

 

My son says that kind of behavior during a guest speaker would be a huge red flag to him, and that organizing patrols by grade level is a horrible idea. His troop is careful to mix the younger kids (first two years in the troop) into patrols with older scouts, so they learn how to do things properly. 

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Our current troop is 22 miles away and I am so ready to NOT commute that far anymore.

 

I never thought I would commute so far for scouting, but both my kids are in troops that are 45 min away from me.  And at the time of day they start/end, it's usually an hour.  Can be longer.  Seriously.  It was the only option for my girl, and our next choice after a closer troop turned out horrible. 

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The troop we visited last night had 2 to 3 boys per patrol above 7th grade, so that tells me that all those 5th-7th graders are gung ho and the older boys leave and don't stick around.

 

 

 

For me, this is a big sign of a successful troop.  I know that not all boys can/want to finish or choose other priorities when they get older, but we're trying to find another troop that has at least 4-5 guys within a year or two of ds and it's tough.

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For me, this is a big sign of a successful troop.  I know that not all boys can/want to finish or choose other priorities when they get older, but we're trying to find another troop that has at least 4-5 guys within a year or two of ds and it's tough.

 

How is hardly any 13-16 year olds a sign of a successful troop?  When they found out my 12 year was a 2nd class they seemed surprised and the scoutmaster commented that boys who get eagle before 16 haven't learned anything and need to be slowed down.

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I never thought I would commute so far for scouting, but both my kids are in troops that are 45 min away from me.  And at the time of day they start/end, it's usually an hour.  Can be longer.  Seriously.  It was the only option for my girl, and our next choice after a closer troop turned out horrible. 

 

I am going back to work.  Full time.  No way.  I have done it for 10 years and now that he has to find a new troop (old one is homeschool only and we are going to school next year), I am not going to start looking that far away.

There are 5 locally.  And far more than that if we go out over 5 miles away.  But DH and I will both be working the 20 miles north, into town.  No way I am coming 20 miles home to turn around and drive 20 miles back up there.

 

I will choose for him to drop scouts before I will do that.

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I have scouts, including one Eagle and one Life. When it came time to cross over, we didn't make the expected transition (to the troop sponsored by the same charter organization that sponsored the cub scout pack.)  Because it was billed as boy-led but more clearly resembled some kind of Lord of the Flies boy-free-for-all. No thanks! I think there's an inherent misunderstanding of what boy-led truly means, or maybe it's just lost in translation under certain leadership / leadership styles? 

 

I hope you can find a troop that is the former instead of the latter.

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Keep looking--you'll find a good one. I agree, that mega-troops often struggle. Boy-led means just that--they need to be leading. If not, then the boy is worked with, but if he can't get it, he's removed from his PoR. 

 

Since I know we've discussed this before, I just wanted to add for clarification -- Boy's "not getting it" doesn't mean boys who are just set out, on their own to figure it out.  It involves counseling (helping the boys think through how to lead, not telling them how to lead, but coaching, encouraging, working through the decision making process).  Being removed from the PoR is supposed to be reserved for those who aren't really even trying DESPITE coaching/counseling.  Most 12yo boys (our current SPL is 11, fwiw), lack the organizational skills and maturity to lead on their own without any assistance/counseling/coaching.  Yet, in some troop situations, that is exactly what happens.

 

The Lord of the Flies type of boy-led, which I've seen, involves zero adult coaching/counseling. The SM Team/ASMs literally just stand back in their own conclave essentially ignoring the boys, until (or unless) someone gets hurt.  In these scenarios, boys who received permission to bring their dinner (because scout meetings were moved to an even earlier time, making it impossible for the boys who were just coming from sports practice to eat.) Were told by their PL and APL they couldn't eat and must share their food, and had their food taken from them (this isn't a situation where eating in a car on the way is even possible -- they are walking from the school gym TO the meeting in the school cafeteria).  In these situations, bullying has and does occur (sometimes BY the PL/APL), just out of earshot of a SM/ASM.  In these situations, when the bullied scout tries to bring it to the attention through the proper ranks (ASPL, SPL), they are told, "sorry, didn't see it, can't help you."  In these situations, when an adult does finally decide to step in, it is only to yell at a scout for screwing up, rip a corner off of their fireman chit, or whatever and then retreat to their adult conclave.  When you ask the SM Team about coaching/leadership training, you're told "Well, the boys can go to Youth Leadership Training this summer...in England."

 

Boys who know where to look and how to look can definitely find what they need to train/teach themselves.  The resources exist.  But, many 10-14 year old boys also have difficulty remembering to use a shower...and that soap is a necessary component when showering/washing their hair.  Expecting those boys to learn how to lead without any input, coaching, or counseling from adults who should know, is IMO, unrealistic at best.

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We've learned about 20-30 is MAX for a well run troop here.  Bigger than that and a lot gets lost in the shuffle unless the scoutmaster is amazing!

 

 

Agreeing with this.  We went from a giant troop (80 - 100), to a small troop with less than 20, and it was the best thing ever.  I was afraid to be in such a small troop, but it's a very active troop with about 80% participation.  Because it's so small, all the boys have to work together, and generally they are very accepting of each other and get along. 

 

In our large troop, there was lots of rudeness -- there were just too many boys to have much control over it.  Our new troop is boy lead, but because it is small, there's an atmosphere of cooperation and a very rude boy just wouldn't fit in, by the boys' own standards.

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Thanks guys.  The numbers are a big help.  Our troop was at 40 but it has heavy adult involvement and is homeschool only, so think that made it far less crazy.

 

15 or so sounds like a good number.

 

We are going to keep looking.

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Boy-led does NOT mean that an adult doesn't step in when necessary to stop inappropriate behavior! Boy-led means the boys get choices in what they want to do, what they will eat, and what badges they want to work on. It also means that boys get an opportunity to develop leadership skills. Boy-led means there will be mistakes, but adults will be nearby to make sure they aren't dangerous or damaging. I would not have been happy with the things you describe.

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We have a big Troop (like 60 active Scouts) but it is well-run so it is possible. The SM and ASM are very good at leading without telling the kids what to do. For example, all emails must copy SM and he will throw out questions about things they might not have thought of (do you have a rain plan for the meeting? who is going to lead each activity? etc). He doesn't solve the problems for them but he makes sure that they are thinking about details they might have missed. 

 

I will say that our Troop just had the crossover with new Scouts and the past 2 meetings have been a bit chaotic. Plus, they just elected a new PLC so the Scout leaders are new also.  If someone came and visited now, they might think it's like that all the time. The boys are working it out and the adults are gently leading the older Scouts in how to engage the young new Scouts. Our Troop has a new Scout patrol from crossover until Sept and then they split them into the other Patrols. I think the purpose there is to help them be comfortable with the transition. The new Scout patrol has dedicated older leaders from other patrols who are with them during meetings and at campouts and such. 

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How is hardly any 13-16 year olds a sign of a successful troop?  When they found out my 12 year was a 2nd class they seemed surprised and the scoutmaster commented that boys who get eagle before 16 haven't learned anything and need to be slowed down.

 

I reread my post...MEANT to say that HAVING more boys in that age range is a sign of a troop that we would feel is successful.  Sorry, messed that up!  LOL  (And I realize that numbers of boys in any age range is not an automatic good/bad thing.  I would just prefer a troop where boys stick around until they age-out!)

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I reread my post...MEANT to say that HAVING more boys in that age range is a sign of a troop that we would feel is successful.  Sorry, messed that up!  LOL  (And I realize that numbers of boys in any age range is not an automatic good/bad thing.  I would just prefer a troop where boys stick around until they age-out!)

 

 

Ah, got it.

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Can I ask a quick question as a noob without derailing? Since you all are looking around and talking about crossing over, is this the time to look for a troop (den? pack?)? Or is August/September a better time to find one? I want to try cub scouts out for my son who is 7 and finishing 1st and don't know when is the best time to join.

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Spring can be a good time to join Scouts IF you have a Pack or Troop that stays active in the summer and goes to summer camp. Summer camp is a great introduction to Cub/Boy Scouts. If your local troops don't have summer activities (they should!), it might be better to join in the fall.

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Go to scouting.org to find packs in your area.  District or Council representatives can advise you as to which packs are most active.  They can also provide information about day camp and other district and council level scouting events.

 

Cub Scout pack activity varies considerably.  At this time of year packs in my area are winding down their school year programs.  My sons’ pack switches to summer schedule in May.  Rather than weekly meetings, they will have 2-3 outdoor activities each month.  Because the pack is active during the summer months, new scouts are actively recruited twice a year, April and August (when public schools resume).  Some local packs do not meet at all during the summer.  They recruit in August.  

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