Making a math plan

[lewelma]

Thanks!

Edited June 5, 2016 by lewelma

[Grover]

I'd scribe for him.  Withthose numbers he will qualify for SACs and get a writier for exams anywway, so that doesn't need to hold him back. 

 

Let him use the calculator - he's allowed to in all of the exams, so if it helps, why not. 

 

Are you prepping him for NCEA?  I'd skip to year 10 and directly instruct each process, filling in gaps as you go, which you will easily see if he is dictating.  Perhaps look at some of the online stuff to let him do some independent prctice too?

[BooksandBoys]

My oldest also has a significant discrepancy between math ability and motor planning/motor skills. I'll share what we do.

 

I try to have him do most of his work at his level (but he just had a cognitive leap, so I think we are behind again). I do a lot of scribing for him in order to allow him to feed his love of math. I also recently heard about an app called ModMath (there are others like it, but I don't know names). It allows the child to type in the math problem, take notes, modify numbers (as in regrouping), etc. while doing none of the computation for this user (it's not a calculator). The format is like graph paper, helping the child keep things lined up and offering room for multi step problems. It's been a game changer because he can now scribe his own math. I still scribe some of it for him because he enjoys that time with me, but he will happily do two hours of math a day, so he needed independence.

 

I do choose to allow him to also work math at his "official grade level" (second grade) completely independently on paper. I don't require much, but since the math is so easy for him, he can give more attention to the challenges of writing the numbers, getting his thoughts onto paper. For us, this balance between developing independence and working at his fun, challenging level is soooo important.

 

I require him to read all directions out loud then attempt to tell me what he is supposed to do. He usually needs me to interpret the directions for him, but we keep practicing.

 

I generally allow about half of the work to be done in his head with no reporting to me as long as the answer is correct. He also almost always has the option of telling me what he's doing out loud instead of writing/typing it. This counts as showing his work in our house. We do not use calculators yet. Between scribing and Modmath, he doesn't need that additional intervention yet as the computation is the easy part for him.

 

Edited for phone typos.

Edited April 23, 2016 by BooksandBoys

[Mike in SA]

I'm not all that familiar with the integrated curricula, so it is hard to speak to accelerating those.  Also, please keep in mind that without knowing your kids, I can't be sure that the suggestion below is appropriate.

 

What you might consider is adding an additional thread of math, instead of accelerating the other one.  The additional thread should focus on rigor, and the original can remain as a benchmark for progress - if the rigor is showing up, performance on the "easy" stuff should improve.

 

An example would be modern algebra, or set theory, in a classical format (not AOPS).  If those are too hard, then predicate calculus (logic) should suffice.  They will be different enough to maybe add some fun, without pressure of acceleration or performance.  Anything picked up would be an improvement over nothing additional being done.

 

Eventually, maturity should win out and provide the diligence that is needed.

[wapiti]

I will throw out my two cents even though it probably won't be helpful.  We've been in a somewhat similar pickle.

 

If I am remembering right, Julie in KY may have some ideas for you, especially on scribing.  White board?  Would he be open to learning LaTeX?

 

DS and I tried AoPS a few years ago and he did not really like it.  He definitely prefers direct instruction and really is not into that kind of struggle.  He likes to get everything right in math.  He likes a difficult word problem but a brain teaser, does that make sense?

 

Hmmm...with a love for brainteasers, it would be hard not to at least consider using some aspect of AoPS.  For lessons, is there any chance that perhaps you could teach it more directly and what about the algebra videos - is he past that point?  I'm not sure it would make sense to use the text just for the exercises.  Alcumus for exercises?

 

FWIW, my ds13 has some similarities.  He is taking geometry at school (Glencoe McGraw Hill Common Core text with homework answers submitted online) and ever since he got a graphing calculator a few weeks ago, he does almost everything on it.  I'm not happy about that because he doesn't know the device well enough yet to input correctly so there are sometimes errors in his results even though his intentions were correct.  I worry that he's losing something in the visualization of the math on the page; I don't know how this will play out yet.  He avoids drawing diagrams whenever he can get away with it.  (gosh i miss AoPS but we are stuck for the moment)

 

That reminds me, dd used the drawing tools in Microsoft Word for proof diagrams when she was submitting proofs for AoPS.

 

I tried to get ds to use OneNote on his Surface for writing up two-column proofs for school but it didn't go well.

 

When it comes time for the NZ exams, is there any chance that typing might be allowed by then?

 

For a challenging, non-aops online program, eIMACS?

Edited April 23, 2016 by wapiti

[lewelma]

I'd scribe for him.  Withthose numbers he will qualify for SACs and get a writier for exams anywway, so that doesn't need to hold him back. 

 

Let him use the calculator - he's allowed to in all of the exams, so if it helps, why not. 

 

Are you prepping him for NCEA?  I'd skip to year 10 and directly instruct each process, filling in gaps as you go, which you will easily see if he is dictating.  Perhaps look at some of the online stuff to let him do some independent prctice too?

 

Thanks Grover.  Nice to have a NZ perspective. 

Edited June 5, 2016 by lewelma

[Cake and Pi]

Following.

 

We are years behind you, but I also have a 2e guy with dysgraphia.  He's still getting by doing all his math in his head for now.  I know that eventually he's going to hit that wall though.  I just hope we figure something out before he gets to that point.  

 

I've wondered which, if any, of the math computer programs can be used quickly just to show work? Mathcad?  Mathematica?  I've never used them; I don't know.   And now I want to look into ModMath too (thanks for sharing BooksandBoys!).

[lewelma]

 

 

I do choose to allow him to also work math at his "official grade level" (second grade) completely independently on paper. I don't require much, but since the math is so easy for him, he can give more attention to the challenges of writing the numbers, getting his thoughts onto paper.

This is what I have always done because I could not see how you could go up in math without writing.  And *for my ds* I think I need to separate out these two skills.  I had no idea that his math ability was so far past his writing ability.  I can only imagine now how frustrating math has been for him.

 

I'll look into Modmath. Thanks for the idea.

[lewelma]

I'm not all that familiar with the integrated curricula, so it is hard to speak to accelerating those.  Also, please keep in mind that without knowing your kids, I can't be sure that the suggestion below is appropriate.

 

What you might consider is adding an additional thread of math, instead of accelerating the other one.  The additional thread should focus on rigor, and the original can remain as a benchmark for progress - if the rigor is showing up, performance on the "easy" stuff should improve.

 

An example would be modern algebra, or set theory, in a classical format (not AOPS).  If those are too hard, then predicate calculus (logic) should suffice.  They will be different enough to maybe add some fun, without pressure of acceleration or performance.  Anything picked up would be an improvement over nothing additional being done.

 

Eventually, maturity should win out and provide the diligence that is needed.

 

Thanks Mike.  The problem is that ds has asked for verbal expression to be his focal area.  He loves reading and composing; math not so much.  Perhaps it is because of the approach I have used which (in hindsight) has clearly frustrated him, or perhaps it is because he has always seen himself as not as good as his brother.  But I don't think that doing *more* math content is where he wants to go.  I think he would like an efficient path to the end goal (Calc) so he can focus on what he loves which is literature and composition. But I am really curious to find out how he feels about math if I start scribing for him and we get moving faster.

 

The NZ curriculum is word problem heavy and has a *huge* focus in problem solving in a real world context.  So for the hour long trig test, it is a single word problem, and the examples *I* have worked through are tough.  So my thought right now is to get him into this high level NZ problem solving that uses lower level math content.  However, this would require that we abandon or at least reduce our use of MEP, which he has loved. It took us 6 curriculum 2 years ago to finally settle on it, so I am a bit hesitant.

[wapiti]

Unfortunately I don't think ModMath will be advanced enough.  Last I looked, it was for elementary math only.

 

Microsoft has some sort of offering.  You might also look at http://www.efofex.com/empower.php

[lewelma]

Eventually, maturity should win out and provide the diligence that is needed.

 

 

Edited June 5, 2016 by lewelma

[lewelma]

I will throw out my two cents even though it probably won't be helpful.  We've been in a somewhat similar pickle.

 

If I am remembering right, Julie in KY may have some ideas for you, especially on scribing.  White board?  Would he be open to learning LaTeX?

 

 

Hmmm...with a love for brainteasers, it would be hard not to at least consider using some aspect of AoPS.  For lessons, is there any chance that perhaps you could teach it more directly and what about the algebra videos - is he past that point?  I'm not sure it would make sense to use the text just for the exercises.  Alcumus for exercises?

 

FWIW, my ds13 has some similarities.  He is taking geometry at school (Glencoe McGraw Hill Common Core text with homework answers submitted online) and ever since he got a graphing calculator a few weeks ago, he does almost everything on it.  I'm not happy about that because he doesn't know the device well enough yet to input correctly so there are sometimes errors in his results even though his intentions were correct.  I worry that he's losing something in the visualization of the math on the page; I don't know how this will play out yet.  He avoids drawing diagrams whenever he can get away with it.  (gosh i miss AoPS but we are stuck for the moment)

 

That reminds me, dd used the drawing tools in Microsoft Word for proof diagrams when she was submitting proofs for AoPS.

 

I tried to get ds to use OneNote on his Surface for writing up two-column proofs for school but it didn't go well.

 

When it comes time for the NZ exams, is there any chance that typing might be allowed by then?

 

For a challenging, non-aops online program, eIMACS?

 

Great ideas here.

 

LaTex, OneNote, typing: ds has an encoding problem, so typing is equally slow to writing. So this won't help

 

Alcumus: excellent idea, hadn't even thought about that.  Challenge without him competing in AoPS with his brother.  Able to be done independently.

 

Graphing Calculator: another excellent idea.  I was just going through the 10th grade math books I have, thinking that ds is sooooo slow with graphing. 

 

Typing his exams: yes, that will be allowed.  But the typing is taking *years* to get up to speed.  We will get there, but not any time soon.

 

eIMACS: I'll look into it. Thanks!

 

[lewelma]

Can I just say that scribing is so boring if you are not helping and teaching.  But I find that when I help and teach, it typically hides the fact that he does not know what he is doing.  I have found this true with writing as well.

 

Also, I find that if I scribe and do not help, then he gets really annoyed, like I'm just being mean.

Edited April 24, 2016 by lewelma

[wapiti]

So, basically he needs voice to text, but for math.  Curious, I googled, and voila, http://metroplexvoice.com  Interesting.

Edited April 24, 2016 by wapiti

[lewelma]

So, basically he needs voice to text, but for math.  Curious, I googled, and viola, http://metroplexvoice.com  Interesting.

 

Wow, never thought of that. 

 

ETA: ds and I just looked at the videos, and he said that it is at the same speed that he can mark up in LaTex.  So not as fast as writing for him, but way faster than writing for his brother.  pricey though.  

Edited April 24, 2016 by lewelma

[Mike in SA]

The problem is that ds has asked for verbal expression to be his focal area.  He loves reading and composing; math not so much. 

 

Any interest in debate?  Maybe logic, then?  Our older son isn't a math lover, either (though he is very adept with it), but he LOVES logic.  Even the Schaum's outline is good enough for that.

[lewelma]

Honestly, Mike, I'm running kind of nervous about getting done just the basic high school education, so I'm not super keen to go off track.  But I'm going to be starting another thread on just that topic, because perhaps in my efforts to get done what *has* to get done, I have lost the joy and the rabbit trails.  I'm just looking at high school down a barrel right now because it starts next year in 8th grade, and ds is not capable of doing the quantity of work that is expected of a high school class.  He is just too slow.

[lewelma]

I'm going to continue to brainstorm here, if you lovely folks don't mind.....  I'm a math tutor. I have kids who have dyslexia, dyscalculia, or ADD, and some who are mentally ill, physically ill, or 2e.  I have taught kids with 1st percentile scores in working memory and in processing speed. I have taught kids who have been badly bullied, and in fact, I have even taught the bullies. On the other side of the table, I have mentored my older son into the IMO.  So I have seen a lot. A whole lot. And I know I am good at what I do. Each student is different and needs a tailored program, which is why parents pay me the big bucks. The hardest kids, by far, to teach are the ones with ADD.  If you can't focus, I can't help.  Any other problem is fixable or is able to be worked around. I have stunning successes. 

 

So I think that this is why I am really struggling with my own son.  It just seems that I can't get it right. And I blame myself for my ineffectiveness. Part of the problem is that I am the mom. I absolutely know this.  My son often goes to his older brother to be 'heard' because he *really* wants me to understand what he is doing in his head, especially when it is wrong.  He makes such phenomenal leaps, that when he is wrong, it is quite a brain twister to figure out why.  And then he is super stubborn and wants to hold onto his wrong thinking, which really stretches me to come up with creative ways to convince him and turn his thinking around.

 

One thing I have learned that is critically important to kids who do a lot in their heads is to understand the difference between the mathematical statement that represents the problem, and the mental computations they used to answer it.  Most kids who do lots of mental maths get these two things very muddled, which leads to serious problems down the track with algebraic or probability word problems etc. I have pushed *hard* to make sure that my younger is not in that camp.  Given that he can do 3 equations 3 unknowns with fractional answers in his head without algebra, clearly he can do a LOT in his head.  The writing that I have *required* from him is minimal, but very purposefully designed to clarify the mathematical thinking vs the computational mental tricks. I am actually curious if his trouble with converting word problems into proper mathematical thinking might not have been related to his dysgraphia.  It is after all an *encoding* problem, and I am asking him to encode words into letters and numbers.  I guess it does not matter now because we have succeeded in the effort; it just took 2-3 years.

 

So now I'm wondering if I scribe for him for a year to accelerate him into the properly challenging material, if all the hard work I have done laying the foundation will remain.  I think it will, if I *only* write what he tells me to. I've talked to my older ds, and he has the same hesitation I have had all these years, that higher level math is about encoding and then manipulating.  If ds can't write, he can't actually do math, because writing is thinking made clear and this is especially true of math. The exactness of your mathematical writing demonstrates the exactness of your thinking.  The two can't be separated, because they are completely intertwined.  My older boy thinks that it would be better to keep the two working in lockstep, than to accelerate one without the other.  Clearly, we will move more slowly, but perhaps more effectively in the long run.

 

Thoughts?

Edited April 24, 2016 by lewelma

[Mike in SA]

Honestly, I think you are right in that last post.  Rigid formulation of thought processes is essential to higher math.  You can do a lot in your head, but eventually, you're going to need that head for harder thoughts.

 

Just thinking out loud here, about how we might have adjusted.  Maybe it will add some perspective?

 

Although our older doesn't have ADD, our approach with him was very similar to how we would work with ADD kids - thinned the material out, and added threads.  It takes longer for each thread, but the pace is the same overall.  It just allowed us to work in 15 minute chunks.  If additional threads weren't an option, we would still have had to stretch things out.

 

With writing being very far behind, I'm not sure how we would have adjusted.  Probably the same.  We would have focused instead on compensation techniques for writing, and let the math drag as much as necessary.  Accelerating through a subject that is dreaded not for the content, but for the mechanics...  It wouldn't have gone over well at all.  We might have even deliberately slowed the math, so that it could be enjoyed when he was ready.

 

Older DS is unlikely to pursue a true STEM career.  Being talented doesn't bring love for content.  He is far more likely to take a humanities- or business-oriented path.  Strong mathematical talent has applications there, as well.  Programming, economics, political science, operations management, and decision science all come to mind.  If he had to stop doing math, it wouldn't be the end of the world.

 

 

Where do your son's interests lie?  Maybe there's motivation to be found along that line.

 

[wapiti]

Try the graphing calculator.  While I have been worrying about that, this discussion here made me realize something.  With the caveat that I've been avoiding learning how to use it myself, when my ds inputs a large series of calculations into the graphing calculator in order to avoid writing *anything* down at all, he does so very sequentially.  It seems to me that seeing the big picture of an equation with a long sequence of calculations is the same thing he used to have to do in order to perform calculations mentally!  But, at least the calculator helps take off the burden of calculating the pieces/details.  What's odd about that is I always assume that sequencing is difficult for my majorly visual-spatial ds, but that never seems the case in math - maybe the sequence that is the giant equation really *is* the big picture.  Would your ds have physical difficulty with typing into a graphing calculator?  (And aren't there graphing calculators that print stuff out?  could be useful...)

 

Speaking of the big picture, the typing issue would be a major concern going forward for all academic subjects.  If that could be improved somehow, it would make everything a whole lot easier.  Someone may have thoughts over on the Learning Challenges board.

Edited April 24, 2016 by wapiti

[lewelma]

Thanks for the ideas, Wapiti.  I think I will get him a graphing calculator.  I think he will enjoy it, plus he needs it for his stats and calc exams eventually.  As for the typing, I have gone on the LC board and they have suggested Touch Type Write and Read which is a typing program for dyslexics/dysgraphics.  It does LOTS of drill of words in phonemic families, so it is helping with spelling as much as typing.  He doesn't like to do more than 20 minutes 4 days a week, so I've offered to pay him to do more.  Might need to get the coins now, so they are more physically present and worth earning.

 

As for the math, ds has no trouble with word problems, at all.  He just does them all in his head, including really hard ones.  But I have seen this before.  A student *must* learn how to code for what operation the question is actually asking about. So for example, I've seen a lot of repeated addition used by my students for what is actually a division problem.  Repeated addition only works as a trial and error method, so the moment you leave primary school maths and head into Algebra, the transition is impossible.  This is one of the main things I remediate here because mental maths is so huge in primary school maths in NZ.  So I talk to kids about not wanting to see *their* workings, I want to see *the* workings.  I don't want to see a bunch of mental maths --stepping stones, and complementary numbers, and trial and error.  What I want to see is the proper accepted mathematical statement.  Then they can computate in their head, on paper, or with a calculator, I don't care. So typically, a student needs to write a single line of work and then an answer, but the single line of work requires them to code in a way that their brain simply doesn't do. And it is hard. I has definitely been hard for my ds, although now he gets it.  If I can get a student to code mathematically with primary school maths, the transition to secondary school maths is easy.  So this coding is where I wonder if my ds didn't struggle because of the dysgraphia. Just kind of curious. 

 

 

[lewelma]

Well, this is what I am thinking right now.

 

DS likes math just fine but he does get frustrated with the writing part.  I'm starting to think that the writing part is why he can only do 40 minutes a day 4 days a week (he is gone on mondays), which is basically not enough to do a year's curriculum in a year for the 9th grade work he is doing.

 

So I am thinking that I get him to:

1) do 20 minutes of algebra each day, that *he* writes

2) then do 20 minutes of algebraic word problems or just tricky deep thinking algebra where I write (and it wouldn't be much writing because we would be focused on the thinking)

3) and then do 20 minutes of geometry where I scribe everything (because a lot of it is just angle=60 because "alternate angles on parallel lines", so lots of writing that I can easily scribe)

 

This would:

1) increase the time spent on maths by reducing the writing load.  

2) focus on his best skill which is his mathematical intuition.  

3) accelerate him through geometry so get him to higher level integrated maths faster.  

4) keep his mathematical writing ability move in lock step with his math concepts.

 

What do you think?

 

Next up is to decide which curriculum(s) to use, and *how* to appropriately integrate a graphing calculator without him getting lazy about numeracy which I see a LOT. Plus, I need to get him on board for increasing his maths and decide what we will drop to make room.

[lewelma]

.

 

Edited April 24, 2016 by lewelma

[lewelma]

Honestly, I think you are right in that last post.  Rigid formulation of thought processes is essential to higher math.  You can do a lot in your head, but eventually, you're going to need that head for harder thoughts.....

 

Where do your son's interests lie?  Maybe there's motivation to be found along that line.

 

Mike, thanks so much for confirming my intuition on this.  Definitely, helped to clarify my thinking.

 

My ds is interested in doing what his dad does - IT project manager. :001_smile:  DS doesn't really care about *what* topic he does at work, he thinks more in terms of what kind of life he wants both in and out of a job.  So he wants to make decisions, work closely with people, do deep thinking, make enough money that his wife can stay home if she wants, have decent working hours so he can play with his kids.  So project manager works, and IT is where there is money and jobs, so that works too.  Now I just have to get him interested in computers.  :tongue_smilie:

[Mike in SA]

Mike, thanks so much for confirming my intuition on this.  Definitely, helped to clarify my thinking.

 

My ds is interested in doing what his dad does - IT project manager. :001_smile:  DS doesn't really care about *what* topic he does at work, he thinks more in terms of what kind of life he wants both in and out of a job.  So he wants to make decisions, work closely with people, do deep thinking, make enough money that his wife can stay home if she wants, have decent working hours so he can play with his kids.  So project manager works, and IT is where there is money and jobs, so that works too.  Now I just have to get him interested in computers.  :tongue_smilie:

 

:)  Honestly, a PM doesn't need strong programming skills.  Economics and accounting will go much farther.  That's sort of where we are thinking older DS will end up.  Operations management (lean, project management) + strategic management (negotiations, consulting) + analytics (programming, systems, mathematics)...  In your son's case, since being a PM is appealing, I'd swap programming/systems for cost accounting, and he'd be a powerhouse.

[lewelma]

:)  Honestly, a PM doesn't need strong programming skills.  Economics and accounting will go much farther.  That's sort of where we are thinking older DS will end up.  Operations management (lean, project management) + strategic management (negotiations, consulting) + analytics (programming, systems, mathematics)...  In your son's case, since being a PM is appealing, I'd swap programming/systems for cost accounting, and he'd be a powerhouse.

 

I agree.  I definitely see a class in business in high school, which is a mix of accounting, economics, law, and marketing I think. But the computing class here only has one unit out of 10 as programming.  The other units are on things like servers, security, database design etc, and all of those things are very useful for dh's job. 

[Julie of KY]

rather he psych classified it as motor/spatial dysgraphia, where he just has no recall of the shape of he letters/numbers so writing is slow and laborious and he often forgets what he wants to write during the process of writing it.

 

Ruth,

Your son sounds a lot like mine. I haven't read all the responses so I'm going to give some first thoughts - mostly my story and come back later and reread the rest of this thread.

 

My son is now 16 and has struggled with 2E difficulties - highly gifted in math, severely dysgraphic. 

 

In middle school, he tested >99.9% in math, >99.9% in reading comprehension, and 1st percentile in writing components, also slow processing speed. At the time he did not know all his lower case letters and had a hard time writing anything - had to think about how to form every letter of his name. We were spending every day practicing how to write your name and address small enough to fit on a line to be able to fill out a form. He did a lot of copywork in very small chunks. He learned tons of grammar through copywork and reading. At the same time he won a four year full tuition scholarship for college based on his math.

 

I did math orally with him for years. Who says math can't be a sit on the couch and discuss type of subject. I would read every problem to him, he'd do it in his head and the tell me the answer. Later we figured out that he had difficulty reading textbook style books (slow down and read every single word), but I didn't know it at the time. We were just doing what worked since he needed to learn it orally. I would work separately on the skills of "showing your work". We mostly started doing this through math competitions in which he needed to write out proofs and specify each step.

 

I would encourage you to separate out the components of his learning - the visual spacial skills of geometry, the step by step skills of algebra, the written component of math. How much can he do in his head? When does it become necessary for him to have a scribe or some other accommodation? Push the teaching at every single level, but it might be at widely discrepant levels.

 

My son would say he couldn't translate his ideas/image into words. This made it difficult for him to dictate to me as well. It was incredibly hard for him to come up with the language to write a simple paper even when I was the scribe.. If he tried to write anything, it was obviously difficult.

 

In the process, we figured out that my daughter needed vision therapy for convergence insufficiency. I started talking to the COVD doc about which of my other kids might need to be evaluated. His short answer was. that any kid that is not meeting their potential ought to be screened for vision problems. I talked and asked questions for hours over several meetings, but eventually became convinced that he might be able to help my son with his dysgraphia. He described my son as "lost in space:, meaning that no way to transcribe his abstract visual spacial world to the concrete. It was fascinating. We discovered that my highly intelligent kid who had phenomenal visual spacial skills in testing didn't translate to real-world visual spacial skills. If you asked him to guess with a string how wide the microwave was, he was grossly off in his estimation. He couldn't guess how many steps it'd take to walk across the room with any accuracy. If you gave him a block picture and asked him to recreate it with real blocks, he'd do the exact picture but on a different scale (and run out of blocks). He said my son probably didn't have a good feel for how far away the paper was so he made all the letters different sizes and with different pressure on the pen.

 

We started vision therapy and did it for 30 weeks. My son did a lot of traditional VT exercises - but he also did a lot of visual spacial exercises in the real world. Take a string and guess how big the microwave, doorway, book, etc is and then go measure it and see how close your are. Do step counting - first guess how many steps to walk across the room, then how many steps to walk across the street. Lots of throw a bean bag at an object. Explaining to a teenager why he has to do all this was lots of fun!

 

About 20 weeks into the therapy, my son picked up a pen and started writing on his own for the first time in his life. All of a sudden he no longer was having to think about how to form every letter and his writing was becoming more automatic. I credit VT for this change.

 

My hope was that everything else would start to fall into place more easily, but the reality is that it's been a huge struggle to figure out how to overcome learning disabilities while working at a high level academically. I still scribe some, but he is doing much more of his writing now. We try to limit the amount of writing necessary because it is such a struggle. He has great difficulty writing any papers from the language side of things. He just doesn't think in words. His output has gone from sounding like an elementary kid to a college level kid in a few short years so I'm hoping it will continue to become easier. While the output is now on par of a college student, it is a huge effort to do it.

 

He has accommodations for school at home, some accommodations for online AP classes, college board testing and will continue to need them in college.

 

Choose the writing instrument that works for him.

Decide how much math is reasonable for him to write (without too much frustration) and then scribe or do the rest orally.

 

... more in a bit.

[Julie of KY]

 

One thing I have learned that is critically important to kids who do a lot in their heads is to understand the difference between the mathematical statement that represents the problem, and the mental computations they used to answer it.  Most kids who do lots of mental maths get these two things very muddled, which leads to serious problems down the track with algebraic or probability word problems etc. I have pushed *hard* to make sure that my younger is not in that camp.  Given that he can do 3 equations 3 unknowns with fractional answers in his head without algebra, clearly he can do a LOT in his head.  The writing that I have *required* from him is minimal, but very purposefully designed to clarify the mathematical thinking vs the computational mental tricks. I am actually curious if his trouble with converting word problems into proper mathematical thinking might not have been related to his dysgraphia.  It is after all an *encoding* problem, and I am asking him to encode words into letters and numbers.  I guess it does not matter now because we have succeeded in the effort; it just took 2-3 years.

 

So now I'm wondering if I scribe for him for a year to accelerate him into the properly challenging material, if all the hard work I have done laying the foundation will remain.  I think it will, if I *only* write what he tells me to. I've talked to my older ds, and he has the same hesitation I have had all these years, that higher level math is about encoding and then manipulating.  If ds can't write, he can't actually do math, because writing is thinking made clear and this is especially true of math. The exactness of your mathematical writing demonstrates the exactness of your thinking.  The two can't be separated, because they are completely intertwined.  My older boy thinks that it would be better to keep the two working in lockstep, than to accelerate one without the other.  Clearly, we will move more slowly, but perhaps more effectively in the long run.

 

Thoughts?

 

Thoughts especially about the bolded...

Yes to do the challenging math, you must learn how to think exactly. However, I'd argue the intertwining of the process is complicated especially in the 2E kids. My son could do all the AoPS math in his head and did not write any math until calculus. It was very difficult for him to "tell" me step by step the process of the math by dictation. He was getting all the problems correct so obviously he could "see" the math in his head, but translating that to word/figures was hard. For him, the process gelled as he began to write out proofs for USAMTS as well as number theory proofs. Initially he'd be given the feedback that he was not showing all the steps or all the cases, but that quickly improved. IF your son can do the math accurately, I'm not sure it's a problem to continue to accelerate him in math while working at an easier level (or harder) to learn how to show every step of the problem.

 

The combination of my son's writing ability having improved and his mathematics getting harder has forced him to learn how to write it out. On a day to day homework level, his math looks like chicken scratch and he only writes enough to keep it straight in his head, but he regularly has to write out specific problems with all the steps for a few assignments and tests. It takes a tremendous amount more effort for him to write it out compared to just learning the theory, but his written explanations are spot-on. Therefore, I'd argue that you MIGHT be able to separate the speed at which you teach the components of math.

 

[Julie of KY]

The NZ curriculum is word problem heavy and has a *huge* focus in problem solving in a real world context.  So for the hour long trig test, it is a single word problem, and the examples *I* have worked through are tough.  So my thought right now is to get him into this high level NZ problem solving that uses lower level math content.  However, this would require that we abandon or at least reduce our use of MEP, which he has loved. It took us 6 curriculum 2 years ago to finally settle on it, so I am a bit hesitant.

 

I'm a big proponent of using what works for you  no matter what others say. I know you know how to teach math and can tell if your son understands it. Go with your instinct on what is best for him. You can go back and fill in later if you missed something or need to go deeper. I'd ease into the higher level problem solving if you are hesitant about that - you're usually hesitant for good reason.

 

With learning disabilities, I've learned that sometimes I need to push and other times, I need to back off. If your son is getting frustrated, it's probably for good reason.

 

I so much understand the slow to learn keyboarding as well. Everyone want to just say that if your son is dysgraphic, he just needs to learn to  type. It's not that easy. Learning to keyboard was incredibly hard. Now my son can type as fast as he can think in words so at least it's not his typing ability holding him back anymore - just the language ability.

 

Graphing calculator might be very helpful.

 

I'm now going through this process with my next 2E child. My daughter is severely dyslexic, dysgraphic and has been very slow to learn arithmetic skills of order, but she has great math logic. It's interesting how much she in now learning with AoPS. Again we are doing it all orally, with me scribing some of her answers. She then has to do alcumus independent of me to prove that she can do the math. Her disabilities are with reading and writing, but she is a natural at language and has no trouble dictating to me - very different from my oldest.

 

My fourth is also 2E - 9 year old struggling to learn to read while above grade level in math (doing all the word problems orally). It'll be interesting to see where everyone goes.

 

Hope you find your path with your son.

[Black-eyed Suzan]

I am reading your thread with interest since my son has similar issues.

 

Thoughts especially about the bolded...

Yes to do the challenging math, you must learn how to think exactly. However, I'd argue the intertwining of the process is complicated especially in the 2E kids. My son could do all the AoPS math in his head and did not write any math until calculus. It was very difficult for him to "tell" me step by step the process of the math by dictation. He was getting all the problems correct so obviously he could "see" the math in his head, but translating that to word/figures was hard. For him, the process gelled as he began to write out proofs for USAMTS as well as number theory proofs. Initially he'd be given the feedback that he was not showing all the steps or all the cases, but that quickly improved. IF your son can do the math accurately, I'm not sure it's a problem to continue to accelerate him in math while working at an easier level (or harder) to learn how to show every step of the problem.

 

The combination of my son's writing ability having improved and his mathematics getting harder has forced him to learn how to write it out. On a day to day homework level, his math looks like chicken scratch and he only writes enough to keep it straight in his head, but he regularly has to write out specific problems with all the steps for a few assignments and tests. It takes a tremendous amount more effort for him to write it out compared to just learning the theory, but his written explanations are spot-on. Therefore, I'd argue that you MIGHT be able to separate the speed at which you teach the components of math.
 

 

An article I read recently that supports Julie's suggestion to separate learning the math from learning how to show the steps: Teaching Gifted Kids to Explain Their Thinking.

 

Her previous post brought to mind something you may consider to promote automaticity in his writing: Dianne Craft's writing 8 exercise. It takes 10-15 minutes a day, so it's not a huge time investment for something that may help.

 

Another idea: stamps or stickers for numbers and variables? That would give him independence, at least.

 

No personal experience, but this person suggests a way to dictate high-level mathematics:

http://users.math.yale.edu/~ml859/howtodictate.pdf

 

[Incognito]

I just read about a free app for dysgraphia and math.  It's for apple stuff so I tuned out/forgot the name.  ModMath perhaps?  I'll hunt and see if I can dig it up.

 

Yes, here it is.  http://www.modmath.com/

Edited April 27, 2016 by Incognito

[Heathermomster]

DS began typing math for chem last fall and then it fell off.  We used the mathematics add-on for Word and liked it because you could edit the math within the document.  You could also check out Efofex and their EmPower program.

 

ETA:  DS stopped using Word because his attention to detail took a big leap after all the typing, and he was able to go back to handwriting.  He also started using an entire sheet of paper to answer questions with more spacing.  It is hard to explain.  

Edited April 27, 2016 by Heathermomster

[luuknam]

Can I just say that scribing is so boring if you are not helping and teaching.  But I find that when I help and teach, it typically hides the fact that he does not know what he is doing.  I have found this true with writing as well.

 

Also, I find that if I scribe and do not help, then he gets really annoyed, like I'm just being mean.

 

Could you hire a kid to scribe for him?

[wapiti]

 I think I will get him a graphing calculator.  I think he will enjoy it, plus he needs it for his stats and calc exams eventually.

 

Something came up that reminded me of your situation - a random calculator thread over on the high school board where daijobu suggested RPN.  

 

If you are doing multiple operations on multiple operands, the calculator will keep track of your intermediate quantities for you in its stack of memory.  With a regular computer you would need to write down all the intermediate quantities in order to reuse them.    

 

Here's a good explanation.  There's a bit of a learning curve, but not as steep as you would think.  Once you get the hang of it, you'll never go back.

 

I haven't had my ds try it yet, but my rough understanding is that RPN would require fewer calculator keystrokes, no parentheses, as compared to algebraic entry on a graphing calculator.  I'm not sure whether your ds would find that helpful but thought I might as well include the idea in this thread.