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Please explain double majors to me?


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I'm just trying to make sure that I don't misunderstand.

 

What did your DC's semesters look like if they chose to double major? E.g. how may courses did they end up taking per semester towards their double major and what was the experience like? Crazy busy? Just right? Fulfilling? Regrets?

 

And did double majoring affect them negatively in some way, e.g. less time for research or a social life? My DS isn't big on social life at the moment but I want to be respectful of the fact that this will very likely change. I would also love to know what else he should be considering if he chooses this path.

 

I'm aware that double majoring might extend a student's time in college. Right now, considering the possibility that many of DS's DE credits will transfer, he might have more time to spend towards a double major. He would have many if not all of his general eds out of the way. It's also possible that the second major will be complementary to his first and some overlap in courses could occur.

 

I would also like to know what to be prepared for in case he chooses to double major in two very different areas, e.g. math and literature vs math and something like CS or physics. He has developed a very deep love of literature (totally not planned, we unschooled most of our English! Or maybe that's why, lol!) and I'm trying to figure out how to guide him if this should be the case. Another possibility he is considering is double majoring in math and music. I know music will involve lots of practice time but how does that work with a math major in the mix?

 

He is interested in the UCs by the way, if that helps anyone to provide additional information. Thank you!

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It very much depends on the college. Some additional considerations include: how difficult is it to get a desired or required class? How many classes are required for the desired major? How many general education courses would your student be able to get out of? How easy is it to major across two schools (you mentioned music)?

DH is a prof at Cal Poly, where it is exceptionally difficult for students to graduate on time with one major, leaving very little room for a second major, because the credit requirement for a single major is 180 credits (although this school is on a quarter system, so students take more classes overall). The students get something like 4 elective courses in the course of their career. 

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Dd tried to major in two areas. It was going to add a year to her timeline. We gave the go ahead. She started taking the classes for it. Each major required a minor to go with it. Then, what she was told suddenly changed. It seems that she wasn't allowed to double dip on required electives. The second major would require 2 1/2 or 3 years extra...No freaking way. Add in that the second major was Japanese which is easily proven by a proficiency test and isn't something that actually requires majoring in to work in...No way. It ended up adding a year to her undergraduate degree because she had taken up her time taking all those other classes for international business (the other minor to go with Japanese). She did go ahead and take all the Japanese classes she could take also. Just because she wanted to. She will end up with one major and two minors.

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This won't help on the 2 different majors such as math/literature. and we're not in UC.

But I can share some of my dd's current experience as a double major - BS in Electrical Engineering with BS in computer science.   or as she and my dh call it "CS double gEEk"

The degree paradigm for that double major can be done in 4 years to get the 140 credits.  It means most semesters are 18 or 17 credits .  Two semesters have to be 19 hours, which is one credit overload.  One of those overloads is final semester and includes 3 gen eds.  In her case, she got one Gen Ed via clep exam.  And will also do 2 summer courses this year in order to avoid the 19 credit load. (summer tuition for 6 credits (2 courses) isn't that much higher than the per credit overcharge that she would otherwise have.)

 

It is busy for her.  She seems to like it.  Some students who start off in this double major sequence eventually drop one of the other.  She doesn't want to drop the EE to have just CS because then she'd be in the college of sciences instead of engineering and that would mean foreign language requirement.  If she's in engineering, she gets that part of her "geek social life".    I think she likes doing both. She's motivated. 

 

Yes, she says there are others who do these sequence in 4.5 or 5 years. but she is on track to get it done in 4.

 

social life: she seems to have time for romance, and D&D games, LARP. (live action role play.  I told you, she's CS double gEEK, right?)

work study job as math tutor, and even shows up to church on weekend with us.   She craves social stuff and found her nerd and geek social life in college. I'm happy for her.   I don't know how she manages all of that.  I never taught her that level of intensity in stuff to do.

 

in terms of courses for prep while in high school?  I have to take a pass on that.  She didn't even do dual enrollment in homeschool.  no AP's.  the clep lit exam wasn't until she was in college (summer after first year.  her college allows that.)

 

Edited by cbollin
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It will definitely depend upon the school, so look carefully at those you are considering.  My URochester boy is double majoring (Brain & Cognitive Science, Bio) and getting two minors (American Sign Language, Psych) and is just one course shy of a Chemistry minor, but his school has only one required course - a freshman writing course.  They also need to have three sets of three courses in different "fields," but those fields can include their majors/minors.  This means there's a ton of time to take courses for majors/minors and many students opt to double major (at least).  It's easily doable in 4 years.  He's enjoyed his time there and rarely had to take a course that didn't interest him.  The only one of those that comes to mind has been Physics - and that's a pre-med course, so no opting out for him.

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It depends on your choices. If you come in with advanced standing (i.e. CLEP, AP, or dual enrollment credits) and pick closely-related majors, you might graduate on time. Keep in mind that sometimes two majors also means two minors.

 

I transferred schools and brought in so many credits that I actually got double B.S. degrees. Math and computer science had so many overlaps, and I had so many hours, it was only a semester more.

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A lot depends on the college and the combination of majors.

 

DD is double majoring in literature and physics. There is no overlap. Her school has extensive core requirements and does not allow students to take longer than four years until graduation; they are extremely strict. Consequently, she has planned out her classes in a spreadsheet and has no room for any fun electives or anything going wrong if she wants to complete the double major in the allowed time. She is crazy busy - but part of that is her school.

This, however, is an extreme case.

 

I have many students who double major in physics and a related field like mathematics or electrical engineering, so a lot of courses fulfill requirements for both majors. Some take the regular course load and take longer; others take an overload and graduate quickly.

As for double majoring in two areas without overlap: if the student is OK with taking longer and the school allows that (most do), they can tailor the course load as they wish.

Edited by regentrude
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It's depends on the school, but in our experience, the sooner you know you are going to try for a double major, the better.  My youngest dd explored many types of classes her first year, and settled on a double major by the beginning of her second year.  We've made a schedule of classes for her remaining years, and we just don't think she can swing it in four years, which is her/our goal.  So, she will probably just end up minoring in the second one, but maybe picking up the remainder of classes here and there after she graduates, and get the second major later.  

 

In her case, there are two obstacles.  I think she could have done both majors if there weren't so many liberal arts requirements at her school.  As is, she has to take a year's worth of religion courses, a year's worth of a foreign language (even after four years in high school), a year's worth of fitness classes, and a senior seminar.  That's a lot of extra classes she has to fit into spaces that could have been taken up with courses for her second major instead.  She definitely could have handled the course load for two majors, and it's frustrating that there are so many other course requirements.  (Something we didn't look into very well ahead of time, although we still really like the school.)

 

The other obstacle is that squeezing in two majors in three years (her situation, since she didn't really decide on her major/s until the end of her first year) doesn't always fit with what classes/hours are being offered in a particular semester.  Some classes are only offered once every two years, or require a prerequisite that is offered only one semester a year, for example.  Unless everything lines up perfectly -- even with advance planning -- sometimes it is just not possible.

 

But, I know many students who have done it, so clearly it is workable for many!

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As others have said, it depends.

 

Some majors have classes that are fairly "flat" in structure -- there are not a lot of prereqs. Some, like chemistry, have a fairly rigid structure that you need to follow in order to graduate on time. Double-majoring in two rigid disciplines would be a challenge.

 

Dd1 double-majored, and ds1 triple-majored! :tongue_smilie: Dd1 was dealing with one major that was fairly rigid (chemistry) and one that was fairly "flat" (art history). Since she came in with about 50 credits from AP's and dual-enrollment classes in hs, she was able to do it fairly effortlessly. (Her majors also were highly complimentary -- between AP's and her majors, she had NO gen eds she needed to take!!!!!) She had TWO "open" classes in her entire four years, but that's what she wanted to do and it worked for her.

 

She wanted to double major because she was interested in art conservation, which really is a mix of both majors. She is still reaping the benefits of having double-majored.

 

Ds1 triple-majored. Again, between AP's and dual-enrollment classes in hs, he entered with nearly 60 credits and most of his gen eds already filled. Also, all three of his majors had a fairly "flat" structure.

 

As long as your son has a good reason to double-major, I think it makes a lot of sense. Frequently music majors are double-majors -- for obvious reasons!

 

 

Edited by Gwen in VA
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Our son is studying abroad so this may not apply here in the US.  He is double majoring in law and economics.  There are only a couple of classes that overlap but he loves his classes and is one of those live to work types. Socializing takes place within the context of his studies (study groups, fraternity, class projects and required community service).  Every day is very carefully planned out weeks and months in advance.  So far so good, he is doing very well.

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Double majoring in two completely different areas is definitely harder, but it can certainly be done. 

 

Bringing in DE or other credit makes things easier. 

 

There aren't many rules of thumb beyond that, unfortunately. You just have to sit down with degree and core requirements and figure it out. dd has been buried in color coded highlighters and index cards for days now. Her current plans will likely include at least 6 to 9 hours of summer credits (probably internship, study abroad, or combination). She is going in with about 30 hours of credit, but some of it will just be electives that may or may not be helpful. 12 hours will definitely apply directly to one major, and another 6 to 9 may apply to a second major or a minor. 

 

As others have said, a lot depends on the school. Some encourage double majors, others make it much more difficult. It will always take more time - not necessarily additional semesters, but obviously more time each semester if you are routinely taking 18 hours instead of 12 and 15. 

 

Our cousin's son just graduated with a triple major in related areas and I know that he still did research and internships and graduated on time. 

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Thank you very much everyone! Your thoughts coincide with what I had envisioned it to be like.

 

Katilac, thank you for spelling out the mechanics of how your DD is planning it too. I thought we could start some spreadsheets to help him plan, when the time comes.

 

Am I wrong to assume that undergrads could also approach advisors to help with such planning? E.g. at the CC where he is DE-ing, DS approached a counselor to help him plan a possible course of study.

 


There aren't many rules of thumb beyond that, unfortunately. You just have to sit down with degree and core requirements and figure it out. dd has been buried in color coded highlighters and index cards for days now. Her current plans will likely include at least 6 to 9 hours of summer credits (probably internship, study abroad, or combination). She is going in with about 30 hours of credit, but some of it will just be electives that may or may not be helpful. 12 hours will definitely apply directly to one major, and another 6 to 9 may apply to a second major or a minor. 

 

As others have said, a lot depends on the school. Some encourage double majors, others make it much more difficult. It will always take more time - not necessarily additional semesters, but obviously more time each semester if you are routinely taking 18 hours instead of 12 and 15. 

 

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It depends on the college and on the majors.

 

My dd is graduating a full year early (6 semesters in college) even though she is earning a double major in Speech Pathology and Child Learning and Development. This is only possible because she started off with 35 credits from dual credit and took one more class at the cc during the summer. She never took more than 17 credits in a semester and is actually taking just 12 credits this semester (her last).

 

At her university, if both of your majors are in the same department, you can double dip. So the required upper level courses for CLD counted as the upper level electives for SLP. And the required courses for SLP counted as the upper level electives for CLD.

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Dd is pursuing degrees in EE and in tech theatre/lighting emphasis, which have very little to do with each other.  She went in with about 30 DE credits; I think  all of them went towards Gen Ed.

 

It's pretty crazy.  This semester she's taking 20 credit hours.  She'll take 10 credits in on-campus summer school.  Last summer she took 9 credits of Gen Ed as online classes while also working 2 summer jobs.  Next semester she's currently planning on 19 hours.  

 

She is attending a fairly small school, and someone else has successfully done a similar program before. Another person tried and couldn't do it.  Since it's a small campus it's easier for the professors and advisors to get together and help figure things out.

 

Her heart is actually more in the theater degree; I think she's sticking with the EE by virtue of sheer stubbornness.  We shall see how the next 2 years go.

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Am I wrong to assume that undergrads could also approach advisors to help with such planning? E.g. at the CC where he is DE-ing, DS approached a counselor to help him plan a possible course of study.

 

Students can definitely approach advisors for help with planning. 

 

If you are planning a double major, and don't get assigned a knowledgable or helpful advisor, you will want to switch. 

 

With any advisor, you should do a lot of the prep work before going in, so they can look it over, answer questions, point out problems, and make suggestions. They don't have the time to sit there and do all of that with you; think of yourself as the writer and the advisor as the editor. 

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I double majored in Speech Communication and Poli Sci. I started school with at least 21 credit hours, and packed in some required religion courses during vacation time, plus a 15 credit hour summer internship to graduate in 3 years. I was able to double dip for general education requirements, but not things required for my major, nor could I use major courses in one area as electives in another.

 

My oldest daughter is considering a double major in Biological Sciences with a teacher's certification and a math major, as well as gaining extra certifications in Chemistry, Physics, and German. She could also get her master's with a 5th year.

 

Doing this in 4 years would require about 21 hours of DE, and nearly 36 hours of AP and CLEP. She also would need to go through her course plan each semester, to check on the availability of intensive courses during the summer, and what is available online to keep her schedule balanced for swimming. Actual work each semester would be about 15 credit hours. This school is a few hours from home (in VA), so even though she might not get long vacations at home (couldn't with swimming anyway), she's close enough for long weekends, and for family to visit. If she doesn't swim at this school, I'm not certain she would still go. Time will tell.

 

It takes a bit of determination, with strong organisational skills to get it all done.

 

A former student of mine double majored at USNA in English and Chemistry. She had advanced standing (tests and interviews) which made it possible.

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I'm sure it depends on both the college and the specific programs in which the student is interested.

 

My son is double majoring in dance and musical theatre (because the musical theatre program is very light on dance). He is also working towards a certificate in entertainment technology at a local community college during the summers. One thing that makes it a bit challenging for him is that the musical theatre program is a B.F.A, while the dance program is a B.A. So, it is literally completing two degrees side by side. What makes the dual degrees possible for him is the fact that they two programs do share some requirements (or requirements that are close enough that they can be tweaked to overlap) and that he transferred in nearly a full year of dual enrollment and CLEP credits that covered a good chunk of the gen ed. So, with his particular combination of circumstances, he won't have any trouble completing both degrees within four years of regular full-time enrollment.

 

His typical semester is between 16 and 18 credit hours, For a performance major, that may be anything from the usual five or six three-credit courses to as many as eight courses, some of which might be worth only one or two credits despite meeting for three or four hours a week. He also has some things that are required but don't necessarily earn credit, such as attending a certain number of performances during the semester. He is required to perform with at least once vocal ensemble and to audition for and accept any roles offered in a certain number of productions. He has the option to take some of those things for one or two credits, but because he is often right at the credit cap (after which he would need to get a waiver and pay extra for any additional credits), he sometimes ends up needing to do things to check off requirements that don't result in credits on his transcript.

 

The biggest challenge for him, though, is that he really likes to be busy and tends to take on extra committments during slow times in order to fill his time, only to tip over into crazy busy when several things come to a head at once. For example, this semester, he's carrying a fairly normal 18 credit hours, spread across five classes plus two stage productions (taken for one credit each). He played percussion in the pep band and leads a student dance group. It was manageable until the tail end of the rehearsal cycle for the dance concert coincided with the beginning of rehearsals for the mainstage musical at the same time that he was juggling extra rehearsals for his opera ensemble concert with sectional rehearsals for the pep band. He had two or three weeks during which he was pretty much constantly begging one director or another to excuse him from some committment and everyone was mad at him at some point . . . all while still attending classes.

 

And just about the time the dance concert wrapped and the sports season ended (meaning the band went on break), they went into tech and final rehearsals for the musical. So, for the last two weeks, he's found 12- to 14-hour days more the norm than otherwise. The musical closes tomorrow, and the opera concert is Tuesday, giving him just four days to breathe before finals week.

 

Every semester, when he chooses courses, he insists he won't do this to himself again . . . and then proceeds to get bored in the first few weeks of the semester and start the whole cycle one more time.

 

Those periods of craziness and exhaustion aside, it seems to be working for him. He's happy and invested and involved, and we can see him growing as a person and performer with every semester.

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Am I wrong to assume that undergrads could also approach advisors to help with such planning? E.g. at the CC where he is DE-ing, DS approached a counselor to help him plan a possible course of study.

 

I would expect this to be possible.  It's also important to watch out with DE as not all colleges accept them as credits.  Middle son's school does not.  They accept some AP, but one can't AP out of (most) courses in their major either (can't use AP Bio as a credit for a Bio major).  AP is not tough enough to replicate the course.  (I think AP Psych was an exception as their beginning course there was similar, so he was able to skip it.)

 

In spite of all that, his school is so flexible with not needing Gen Eds he never had to do any summer courses.  The only reason he had to get permission to overload on courses once or twice was due to his also being an RA (need a class for that) and maybe something with TA (I'm not sure).

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I would expect this to be possible.  It's also important to watch out with DE as not all colleges accept them as credits.  Middle son's school does not.  They accept some AP, but one can't AP out of (most) courses in their major either (can't use AP Bio as a credit for a Bio major).  AP is not tough enough to replicate the course.  (I think AP Psych was an exception as their beginning course there was similar, so he was able to skip it.)

 

In spite of all that, his school is so flexible with not needing Gen Eds he never had to do any summer courses.  The only reason he had to get permission to overload on courses once or twice was due to his also being an RA (need a class for that) and maybe something with TA (I'm not sure).

 

This is very true.

 

The DE we'd be using in DD's case are actually through that particular university.  There are lower math gen ed requirements in Biology than in Mathematics -- which is why dd would have to take the math CLEP to get out of the lower math gen ed requirements.  She can use AP Bio and Env. Science to eliminate gen ed science requirements in Math, but they wouldn't apply to the science major.  The only two science APs that would be applicable in her major are: AP Chemistry (a 5) and AP Physics E&M + M (she would have to take both exams with a 5 to get credit).  She can take both AP English exams, but neither will count for the Lit requirement, but she could use a CLEP for the lit requirement.

 

There are lots of ins and outs that need to be balanced and checked and re-checked.  Some courses (especially upper levels) are only offered say in spring semesters of odd-numbered years.  Sometimes those have prerequisites that have to be taken first.  I worked my plan every semester, looking at course availability vs. requirements.  It's a juggling act -- and the balls in the air can change!

 

My oldest son is also potentially looking at a double major in Engineering and Communications, but this is only available at a very few schools as an undergrad. A few more offer it (or something similar) at the Masters level. 

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Am I wrong to assume that undergrads could also approach advisors to help with such planning? E.g. at the CC where he is DE-ing, DS approached a counselor to help him plan a possible course of study.

 

My dd's advisor has been great at that.  He was one of the main people who designed the program she's in.

 

The undergraduate catalog spells out how to do each major and what to take when.  It even tells if a course is only offered certain terms.  Then, the students have a place on their student account (which student can access) which actually shows flowcharts, spreadsheets, and checklist of what you have done and what you need to take for graduation.

 

I guess there's nothing wrong with homeschool parent helping to plan.  I just want to let you know that it's possible the leg work on this is done for you at some colleges.  Check the catalog.  And at any pre enrollment meetings ask about what is available for student to check on this stuff.   It's called Degree Works at my dd's college and seems to be a software used at several places around the country.

 

When my dd was in the application process we found on college website that all of the spreadsheet legwork was done for us.  Read the catalog.  Look for program plans.  Even when I was in college 30 years ago, this stuff was in the catalog for us.  

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Echoing it depends on the school. My DS is double majoring in two different schools(school of science and school of liberal arts). The core requirements are different enough to add a year for graduation. He came in with essentialy zero credits though, as he refused his AP credits (they were in his majors). It might make it more difficult to study abroad. Lab classes have been a huge time suck, and different science and math core courses are required for the different schools. We did plan it out on paper with him, as it was pretty complicated and he couldn't access advisor in school of science until he was able to declare double major sophmore year. It isn't common and some advisors are a bit clueless , but he has lucked out.

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My DH double-majored in electrical engineering and history. His ROTC scholarship required him to spend exactly 4 years on-campus, no more, no less. He had a year's worth of AP & DE credits so it made sense to do the 2nd major. It helped that history was a low-credit major and he was able to count the Great Books sequence required of all freshman towards the history degree. 

 

I graduated in 3 1/3 years and could've turned my human bio minor into a 2nd major if I'd stayed the full 4 & done the required internship over a summer. I didn't because I only had 3 years' worth of funding from my family plus savings & PT job earnings to pay for the last term. I didn't want to take out loans just to get a 2nd major.

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Dd is a junior doubling majoring in English and French with a minor in theatre. She officially added the French major second semester freshman year.

 

Her university and college within the university have mainly broad core requirements (writing and math are the exceptions). Instead of needing a history, a social science, a physical science, a biological science, and so on, students fulfill requirements within four interdisciplinary categories, so one might be able to take a history that fulfills requirement A and a different history that fulfills requirement B.

 

All majors have a printable worksheet and an interactive online worksheet that is auto-filled as students build their schedules each semester. Both forms show how major requirements fill the university and college requirements.

 

In dd's case, she entered with 12ish AP credits. She chose electives within her majors that could knock out core requirements. Almost every class she has taken she chose to take. The only exception was calculus as she did not take AP in high school. She took the college class during a winter session (five weeks) just to get it out of the way. It was basically a repeat of her high school honors-level calc.

 

As for course load, she's ranged between 12 and 17 credits (17 is the max). The load was dependent on when courses were offered-----if she was able to register for a course only offered every-other-year as some of the 400 level English and French ones are, she jumped on the opportunity. Next year she'll be taking 12 credits both semesters. She could have graduated a semester early by increasing the load this semester and next fall but she chose not to do so.

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I don't think a double major is the best use of time if a student is planning on pursuing a PhD in thier field. The time spent on classes required for the second major would be better spent on taking graduate level classes in their primary major if permitted.

Edited by Butler
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Double majoring with music and a structured academic field with a lot of sequenced classes could easily be a nightmare. Music tends to nickel and dime you to death. It is not uncommon for a one credit hour ensemble to have 5 hours a week of group rehearsal, and it can make getting other classes in around those ensembles difficult. Expect a large and a small ensemble every semester in most music majors. I'd also check the course schedule. Many upper division required theory/comp and literature courses often are only offered one time in a given semester, and sometimes only in Spring or Fall.

 

And, ultimately, I don't know of any STEM/Music kid who double majored who ended up working in music long-term. I do know one person who got double Bachelors in CS and Music, got a PhD in Medieval Musicology, spent most of the early years of the WWW doing website development for music performance groups -and then was hired to teach in the IT department of a good sized state university. He had the skills, had the PhD....apparently, it didn't matter in what!

 

Given your son's background, if he came to me, I'd happily run interference and sign off on him doing any class he wants as a non-major (because I can see him truly loving some of the 4000/5000 level music theory classes, especially), but would discourage him from majoring in music as a second field. Minoring, sure, if he wants to-but even then, I think he'd be better served by taking classes and doing the unofficial, non-credit student ensembles that any university with a big music school has many of.

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I'm going to point out that Cal Newport argues against double majors in his book How to Win at College.  He believes college is a time to go deep, not broad.  While there are plenty of examples of successful double majors in this thread, you may want to read more about his thoughts.  (His latest book is actually called Deep Work, so you know where is biases are.)

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This is so dependent on teh school, the subjects, and sometimes even less predictable things like what courses will be offered in the next few years.

 

I would really advise seeing the undergraduate advisors in one or both of the departments - this is the sort of thing they are there for.

 

In some subjects it can be quite smooth - my college offered a journalism degree - and they strongly encouraged people to do a double major.  Certain subjects could be difficult to combine - music was one that could be very tricky though I know people who did it.  And sometimes there are other ways to accomplish the goal without a formal double major - I had friends that planned their electives carefully so the effect was very similar, or one who completed a computer science degree and then did another undergrad year to also complete a classics degree so he could go on to an MA.

 

 

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My daughter is double majoring in two very different fields, but things are significantly easier for her because she entered with 60 transferable units from dual enrollment. All of her general education requirements were already completed. At her university, students need to be admitted to a major by completing all lower division prerequisites. 

 

Computer science and engineering classes tend to be offered on a very set schedule. For example, a class she needs might only be offered in the fall every other year. Art department scheduling tends to be more flexible but there's still some of that also. As a result, her schedule is usually pretty evenly split between CS classes and art classes. This semester was a bit more art than CS, but her fall semester was more CS than art.

 

She has advisors in both departments who work with her to ensure that she's on track.

 

On the other hand, she's not in any hurry to finish. I graduated her at 16, so she started quite young. She has a good scholarship, a solid amount of college savings and she's been fortunate enough to work as a software engineering intern during the summer, so the expense of taking her time is pretty minimal. If she had to be concerned about graduating quickly, she probably would have just picked up a minor in art, rather than a double major.

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I'm going to point out that Cal Newport argues against double majors in his book How to Win at College. He believes college is a time to go deep, not broad. While there are plenty of examples of successful double majors in this thread, you may want to read more about his thoughts. (His latest book is actually called Deep Work, so you know where is biases are.)

If one is going to pursue academia, I can definitely see his point. However, there are lots of engineers who lack excellent communication skills. There are great communications experts who lack understanding of technologies and the science behind them. Going deep in one of those fields doesn't make up for the lack in another. Experience with both, however can be a huge asset.

 

 

My dual degree allowed me to initially be heavily involved in public policy. But, my later career was mostly due to my broader experience with communication and marketing. Going deeper into poli sci as an undergrad would not have gotten me any further in my public policy work, and going deeper into comms as an undergrad wouldn't have gotten me further in any of my careers.

 

There can be great value in a double major. But, I also probably wouldn't encourage someone to do one just for the heck of it, either.

 

I can honestly say I've not heard of anyone who lost out career wise because of a double major, though. Usually, it opens some pretty cool doors (while I didn't go the routes, I was offered a 5 year Masters-PhD program at Penn State, and a master's program at Wake Forest, specifically due to my dual major and debate background.)

Edited by LisaK in VA is in IT
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It very much depends on the college. Some additional considerations include: how difficult is it to get a desired or required class? How many classes are required for the desired major? How many general education courses would your student be able to get out of? How easy is it to major across two schools (you mentioned music)?

 

DH is a prof at Cal Poly, where it is exceptionally difficult for students to graduate on time with one major, leaving very little room for a second major, because the credit requirement for a single major is 180 credits (although this school is on a quarter system, so students take more classes overall). The students get something like 4 elective courses in the course of their career. 

 

All good questions to ask. If he targets UCs, there is going to be that issue of difficulty getting into classes. If he can get directly into upper division classes provided his lower division classes are accepted, there is also the issue of whether he will have to wait for juniors and seniors to fill classes up first right? His singular experience so far is that UC's honors sections don't fill up as quickly but not every course he wants will have an honors section. Thank you for mentioning CalPoly. It is on the list atm, debating whether or not to remove it.

 

Keep in mind that sometimes two majors also means two minors.

 

I think another pp mentioned this as well. Sorry for being dense. Could you explain this for me? Thank you, G5052.

 

In her case, there are two obstacles.  I think she could have done both majors if there weren't so many liberal arts requirements at her school.  As is, she has to take a year's worth of religion courses, a year's worth of a foreign language (even after four years in high school), a year's worth of fitness classes, and a senior seminar.  That's a lot of extra classes she has to fit into spaces that could have been taken up with courses for her second major instead.  She definitely could have handled the course load for two majors, and it's frustrating that there are so many other course requirements.  (Something we didn't look into very well ahead of time, although we still really like the school.)

 

Ugh...in DS's case, I really don't think he wants to spend anymore time on the liberal arts requirements. I am quite sure the UCs allow him to double dip for high school and college and we are really hoping on that to happen. It won't be a big deal if it doesn't, and UCs are our cheapest options atm anyway...but it really won't be as fun an experience for him if forced to take certain courses when he could be spending that time on things he loves.

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Students can definitely approach advisors for help with planning. 

 

If you are planning a double major, and don't get assigned a knowledgable or helpful advisor, you will want to switch. 

 

With any advisor, you should do a lot of the prep work before going in, so they can look it over, answer questions, point out problems, and make suggestions. They don't have the time to sit there and do all of that with you; think of yourself as the writer and the advisor as the editor. 

 

This is very helpful, thank you. I helped DS with a plan before he met with his CC counselor too. It made for a very focused meeting without wasting the counselor's time. It helped DS see the value of planning for everything, even if the thing you are planning for is for a plan. :laugh:

 

It takes a bit of determination, with strong organisational skills to get it all done.

 

Sounds a lot like homeschooling these kids right? :laugh: Thanks Lisa, good to know.

 

 

My dd's advisor has been great at that.  He was one of the main people who designed the program she's in.

 

The undergraduate catalog spells out how to do each major and what to take when.  It even tells if a course is only offered certain terms.  Then, the students have a place on their student account (which student can access) which actually shows flowcharts, spreadsheets, and checklist of what you have done and what you need to take for graduation.

 

I guess there's nothing wrong with homeschool parent helping to plan.  I just want to let you know that it's possible the leg work on this is done for you at some colleges.  Check the catalog.  And at any pre enrollment meetings ask about what is available for student to check on this stuff.   It's called Degree Works at my dd's college and seems to be a software used at several places around the country.

 

When my dd was in the application process we found on college website that all of the spreadsheet legwork was done for us.  Read the catalog.  Look for program plans.  Even when I was in college 30 years ago, this stuff was in the catalog for us.  

 

Thank you! My undergrad was in a another country and there was no catalog or software then. We only had some lists printed out for us every semester if I recall correctly and then we had to figure it out. I would make appointments with favorite profs and the head of the department for questions but basically I went in very blind and wasted some time my first and second semesters trying to understand it. My head was in the clouds a lot till then lol so no one's fault really but my own. DS is already using something similar to what you mention for his CC work and is also quite good about planning but he seems to prefer relying on hardware/ software called Mom to double check for now. Time to transition him more actively to online planning/ scheduling I think.

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Double majoring with music and a structured academic field with a lot of sequenced classes could easily be a nightmare. Music tends to nickel and dime you to death. It is not uncommon for a one credit hour ensemble to have 5 hours a week of group rehearsal, and it can make getting other classes in around those ensembles difficult. Expect a large and a small ensemble every semester in most music majors. I'd also check the course schedule. Many upper division required theory/comp and literature courses often are only offered one time in a given semester, and sometimes only in Spring or Fall.

 

And, ultimately, I don't know of any STEM/Music kid who double majored who ended up working in music long-term. I do know one person who got double Bachelors in CS and Music, got a PhD in Medieval Musicology, spent most of the early years of the WWW doing website development for music performance groups -and then was hired to teach in the IT department of a good sized state university. He had the skills, had the PhD....apparently, it didn't matter in what!

 

Given your son's background, if he came to me, I'd happily run interference and sign off on him doing any class he wants as a non-major (because I can see him truly loving some of the 4000/5000 level music theory classes, especially), but would discourage him from majoring in music as a second field. Minoring, sure, if he wants to-but even then, I think he'd be better served by taking classes and doing the unofficial, non-credit student ensembles that any university with a big music school has many of.

 

Thank you dmmetler. Was hoping you would comment on the music bit. I took a look at the major requirements last night on a couple of UC sites and you are of course, absolutely right. He doesn't have a lot of CC credits in music right now either. Have to sit down and have a talk with him about the music part. Although he has mentioned it several times as a possibility, I don't know if he is serious enough to double major at this point in music. He actually doesn't enjoy theory as much, not that I have seen anyway. He likes playing around with the music and improvising but I don't see the passion for theory and I don't think he realizes he will need that theory for a major. I DO see him really enjoying ensembles. Not sure how easy it will be for him to get into those if he is not a music major though. Have some info gathering to do.

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I don't think a double major is the best use of time if a student is planning on pursuing a PhD in thier field. The time spent on classes required for the second major would be better spent on taking graduate level classes in their primary major if permitted.

 

I'm going to point out that Cal Newport argues against double majors in his book How to Win at College.  He believes college is a time to go deep, not broad.  While there are plenty of examples of successful double majors in this thread, you may want to read more about his thoughts.  (His latest book is actually called Deep Work, so you know where is biases are.)

 

I must admit I really was happy to see these counter-points. I was wondering about it too, e.g. how wise is it to double major if he could instead focus that time on his main math passion (but conflicted right now because lit is quickly becoming a strong passion here too).

 

My daughter is double majoring in two very different fields, but things are significantly easier for her because she entered with 60 transferable units from dual enrollment. All of her general education requirements were already completed. At her university, students need to be admitted to a major by completing all lower division prerequisites. 

 

Computer science and engineering classes tend to be offered on a very set schedule. For example, a class she needs might only be offered in the fall every other year. Art department scheduling tends to be more flexible but there's still some of that also. As a result, her schedule is usually pretty evenly split between CS classes and art classes. This semester was a bit more art than CS, but her fall semester was more CS than art.

 

She has advisors in both departments who work with her to ensure that she's on track.

 

Yes, this is very much DS's case as well. Bar maybe a couple courses, he would have all gen eds and lower division major requirements in math completed when he starts as a freshman. If he gets the classes he wants as a freshman, he only has to take 13-14 units a semester and he would have also finished all gen eds and major requirements in math by the time he is a sophomore, or latest by 1st semester of sophomore year. That gives him a lot of time to consider another major. His first choice UC will allow a CS major either via the engin school or the letters and sciences school, with the l&s requirements overlapping a bit with math. He likes CS but I am not sure how committed he will be to also majoring in it. His free time activities are all math and literature related with some music thrown in. Rarely programming related. That tells me where his strongest passions are.

 

Read your siggy...visualization engineering sounds SO cool!

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If you want to do ensembles more than the "take everyone" lowest level of band/choir, it's a good idea to check when the auditions are. Often such groups have their rosters filled up after the admissions auditions for majors, and at most schools, you can audition for placement even if you're not planning to major. If you're on a less common instrument, that can sometimes also be a scholarship opportunity.

 

FWIW. UCLA and UC-Berkeley both have big, well known music departments with a ton of ensembles. UCLAhas a big musicology program and a huge number of world music ensembles, which can be a lot of fun, and can also be an entry point for non-majors. Both have strong Jazz programs.

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Thank you all...this has been so very helpful as an initial planning discussion.

 

We had a quick talk about double majoring in music vs literature vs CS vs not double majoring at all. He definitely wants to keep the double majoring open for now. We are neither requiring nor advocating it because we know it has to be his choice and he might very well decide for or against only once he starts freshman/ soph year and that's totally fine with us. But this was so helpful for me to visualize what it could be like for him. I feel a lot less ignorant!

 

Thanks again!

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I don't think a double major is the best use of time if a student is planning on pursuing a PhD in thier field. The time spent on classes required for the second major would be better spent on taking graduate level classes in their primary major if permitted.

 

In general, I'd agree with this statement, but as always look at your situation. For people whose grad school interests are truly cross-disciplinary, double-majoring is definitely the way to go. For example, my dd just earned her Ph.D. in materials science with a focus on art conservation. Nearly everyone in her research group double-majored in chemistry and art history as an undergrad.

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I think another pp mentioned this as well. Sorry for being dense. Could you explain this for me? Thank you, G5052.

 

 

 

 

I believe that was me. My dd was majoring in business administration with a minor in business law. She wanted to also major in Japanese. That required her to chose a second minor to go with it, so she decided to minor in international business to to with the Japanese major. (Each major required a minor to go with it.) This meant X hours were required for the additional minor. At first glance, it looked like she could get it with only a few extra hours because it required many of the same electives as her business adm and business law (counselor at school told her this). Later, it came out that she was not allowed to use those electives for both degrees. If she used American Lit 2 as a humanities elective for one, she was not allowed to use it for the other. This meant the number of hours of required electives she needed to take doubled.

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I'm going to point out that Cal Newport argues against double majors in his book How to Win at College.  He believes college is a time to go deep, not broad.  While there are plenty of examples of successful double majors in this thread, you may want to read more about his thoughts.  (His latest book is actually called Deep Work, so you know where is biases are.)

 

I agree with this. High school was when we went broad. (Really like his new book, too.)

 

In some cases, it's wiser to pursue a Master's degree in a field rather than a second major.

 

Another thing to consider is that you don't have to major in something to enjoy it and spend time on it. My oldest is a computer engineering major, but she was raised with a Great Books classical education. She still loves literature and spends much of her time reading and studying it, but it's at her own pace and interest. It's sort of like how we didn't create classes around our dc's interests when we homeschooled, instead letting them explore those interests on their own so that they would become life-long learners.

 

It really does come down to the school, though. We've looked at schools where it was as simple as a few more courses, and we've looked at schools where it required another few years. Some of it depends on how much the various colleges of a university or departments of a college are; for example, if you are admitted to an individual college and not the university as a whole, it might add some hurdles (and time) to get a double major in another college.

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I'm going to point out that Cal Newport argues against double majors in his book How to Win at College.  He believes college is a time to go deep, not broad.

 

A double major does not necessarily have to mean going less deep. A student interested in a unique set of qualifications can use the double major to tailor his education to acquire a deep knowledge in an interdisciplinary field for which no single degree exists, for example. A student who majors in both physics and mathematics is developing a very deep education; his extra math can be directly helpful if he goes into theoretical physics. There are plenty of other examples where the majors augment one another and create a deep unique profile. Typically these are combinations with two closely related subjects.

But a deep interdisciplinary education can also be achieved with two diametrically opposed subjects. A student who has a strong interest in a career in scientific writing or public outreach for a scientific organization can create a unique education for herself by combining a physics major with an English major and thus position herself with much stronger qualifications than a student with only one of the degrees. In this scenario, too, the majors augment one another to deepen knowledge and understanding, even with two very different fields.

 

Edited by regentrude
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I believe that was me. My dd was majoring in business administration with a minor in business law. She wanted to also major in Japanese. That required her to chose a second minor to go with it, so she decided to minor in international business to to with the Japanese major. (Each major required a minor to go with it.) This meant X hours were required for the additional minor. At first glance, it looked like she could get it with only a few extra hours because it required many of the same electives as her business adm and business law (counselor at school told her this). Later, it came out that she was not allowed to use those electives for both degrees. If she used American Lit 2 as a humanities elective for one, she was not allowed to use it for the other. This meant the number of hours of required electives she needed to take doubled.

 

Thank you for explaining it, Lolly. I understand now.

 

 

Another thing to consider is that you don't have to major in something to enjoy it and spend time on it. [...]

 

It really does come down to the school, though. We've looked at schools where it was as simple as a few more courses, and we've looked at schools where it required another few years. Some of it depends on how much the various colleges of a university or departments of a college are; for example, if you are admitted to an individual college and not the university as a whole, it might add some hurdles (and time) to get a double major in another college.

 

Definitely on the first bolded. He could certainly spend time on his own doing it for fun like he does now. I was just trying to understand what would be involved if he decided to take that 2-major route. At his first choice UC, all the 2nd major interests are in the same college and why this step seemed even more feasible for him.

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A double major does not necessarily have to mean going less deep. A student interested in a unique set of qualifications can use the double major to tailor his education to acquire a deep knowledge in an interdisciplinary field for which no single degree exists, for example. A student who majors in both physics and mathematics is developing a very deep education; his extra math can be directly helpful if he goes into theoretical physics. There are plenty of other examples where the majors augment one another and create a deep unique profile. Typically these are combinations with two closely related subjects.

But a deep interdisciplinary education can also be achieved with two diametrically opposed subjects. A student who has a strong interest in a career in scientific writing or public outreach for a scientific organization can create a unique education for herself by combining a physics major with an English major and thus position herself with much stronger qualifications than a student with only one of the degrees. In this scenario, too, the majors augment one another to deepen knowledge and understanding, even with two very different fields.

 

 

Thanks regentrude, I appreciate the point. The Latin American author DS is currently completely besotted with actually wrote about math in his essays. The man is also a linguist and philosopher, and DS is always mesmerized by the interconnections of these disciplines with math. DS has a very deep love of puzzles and in the absence of a puzzlist major, I think he would love to combine some of these elements during his undergrad to further his puzzles fixation. Granted, he doesn't have to double major to achieve this, but he is a lifelong learner, it is already obvious to me that he will be, and I don't see 2 majors limiting his depth of study.

 

I am interested though to know whether he should just focus on a single major if he plans to continue to a PhD. That's something I didn't consider at all. Likewise, if it is advantageous to look into 4- or 5-year BS/BA-MS/MA math programs if he eventually plans on a PhD. Should he just focus on the BA/BS and go directly to a PhD in that case? Skip the MA/MS in between? Sorry, not sure how that works in the US.

 

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I am interested though to know whether he should just focus on a single major if he plans to continue to a PhD. That's something I didn't consider at all. Likewise, if it is advantageous to look into 4- or 5-year BS/BA-MS/MA math programs if he eventually plans on a PhD. Should he just focus on the BA/BS and go directly to a PhD in that case? Skip the MA/MS in between? Sorry, not sure how that works in the US.

 

 

I cannot see any reason why a future PhD would limit a possible double major as an undergraduate.

 

The 5 year programs that finish with a masters can be a great opportunity especially if the student enters with advanced standing. Whether it is doable with a second major, the student should discuss with his advisor (since advising had been mentioned: at our school, students who are double majors have advisors in both departments who meet with the student each semester to make sure the student is on track with his class choices).

I don't know whether such a  program is an advantage or not when it comes to graduate school.  I would imagine it could position the student as a strong applicant and can't imagine any reason why it would be seen negatively. I would ask the coordinator of the program directly about placement of their graduates for grad school. In Physics, grad school admission is heavily based on GRE score and recommendation letters, and to a lesser degree undergraduate research.

There is a financial aspect you might want to look at, if the undergraduate education is expensive: grad school in the sciences is typically free - so this may be an incentive to do a 4 year BS and then go right into grad school instead of spending a 5th year in an expensive undergrad program.

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My son has just successfully gone through the math grad school application process. In his experience, the schools were looking for candidates that showed an intense focus on their particular subject - and not just "pure math" but the field of pure math in which they want to research. None of the schools were interested in anything other than the math courses he took and the math research he did as an undergrad. The rest was superfluous.

 

If your son is interested in math then I think a closely related major like physics would probably not be a hindrance but only because of the huge overlap of math courses. But I also think that my son was very successful with his applications because of the many math graduate courses he took. Getting a second major would have meant that he would not have had time for those courses, and they looked far more impressive on his applications than a second major in a field that he was not planning a research career in would have.

 

I agree with the above poster who said that college is the time to narrow the focus. Double majors might be helpful for someone going into the career market and want broader skill set but I don't think they are the best use of time for some one looking to pursue a doctorate in a very specific field.

 

But of course this is just an opinion, I'm sure there are many paths out there that will lead to success.

 

Edited to add: my son debated getting the masters since he completed the course requirements for it but eventually decided against it. He was told that applying with a masters degree was not important, what was important was that he had the greater exposure to higher advanced math, ie. the graduate courses.

 

Math PhD programs are funded, some of those 5 year BS/MS programs aren't funded for the graduate portion.

 

Also, keep in mind that some grants, like National Science Foundation I believe, only grant to first time graduate students. A 5 year bs/ms program would make a student ineligible.

Edited by Butler
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I'm not sure which UCs your son is considering. I did my undergrad at UCSB and my husband did both undergrad and grad school in CS at UCD. I know that at Davis, the L&S CS major (at the time at least) was more conducive to double majoring than the College of Engineering major, but L&S had a unit cap that was problematic for some people. My husband had originally started as a musical theater major in a BFA program. When he switched to CS, he had so many units from the conservatory program that his only option at UCD was the college of engineering, because of that unit cap.
 

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If he gets into Berkeley, a Ken Ribet's fan suggested taking Prof Ribet's class as soon as possible if he hasn't retired  :laugh:

 

Also, to take as many Math classes as possible and keep lit/music as a hobby. When he is very comfortable with graduate Math classes, then add the hobby. If he really wants to branch out, it is better to do CS because there is a lot of overlap and

might be the only thing that will help him make a good living.   

 

(Just a Mathematician's opinions, not mine :001_smile: )

 

I hope Kathy in Richmond also chimes in because I think her daughter did both Math and Classics at Stanford.

 

ETA: A link about grad studies in Math 


Edited by JoanHomeEd
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I have a BS in Math and BS in comp sci from an engineering school as part of a larger big 10 university.  There was some overlap in my majors - pre-engineering reqs (physics, calc, etc), and I took some grad level numerical analysis classes that counted to both degrees.  But I still had a bunch of reqs for each.  It took me 5 years + I think 1 or 2  evening classes to finish both degrees.  I did hem and haw about major initially.  Because I was in a tech program, the STEM stuff was very heavy and intense, but my lib ed requirements were pretty light. 

 

Anyway - career wise I've used the comp sci stuff much more than the math, although I have been assigned some projects with a math bent.  I think it would be fun to teach/tutor math at some point!  :)  I do think resume wise, the double major has given me an edge in some circumstances.

 

I guess that's my random double major story.  I think it's good to send your kid to college with the mindset they might do a complete 180 and that's ok.  I also know people who've gone to lib ed schools and done something like music and physics.  I've heard doing 2 opposite directions is pretty intense and to allow yourself plenty of time and flexibility to do that.  In some ways, I think it might have been interesting to go a more lib ed route so I could have explored a bit more.  Once I went through the effort to get into the  highly competitive STEM program, I felt pretty locked into that route.  When I hemmed and hawed about major, it was all within the school of engineering. 

 

 

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My daughter is currently planning double majoring in physics and math.  It will work in 4 years as long as she doesn't take any fun classes and if none of the classes she needs ends up getting scheduled on top of each other.

 

However, she's looked over all the "fun" class offerings and has already decided she would really rather be taking extra math courses anyway.  They seem more fun to her.  She's very much into art and music and literature, but has realized that taking a class in those saps all the fun out of it.  And she doesn't learn as much in those areas than if she just teaches herself.

 

Her plan is to do the physics major.  If the math major doesn't happen then she'll end up with more math classes than she needs for the minor.  And that's ok.  It'll just give her more in an area she's interested in.  What we're seeing with kids getting jobs and getting into grad school is that any major in that sort of area (math, physics, comp sci....) will get her in the general direction of where she wants to be.  The second major won't be necessary.  But if she needs the credits to graduate, it might as well be in something she enjoys (and that might be more interesting to employers/grad schools).

 

A more important thing than a second major in a related field is getting job experience -- internships or undergrad research or something along those lines.  I could see her also deciding to forgo the math major if she decides to take a specific course in comp sci that she gets interested in.  But, like she's decided about the "fun" courses in art, she may realize that just teaching the comp sci material to herself in a job situation is of more use.

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adding: what her semesters look like is just math and physics.  All the time.  Except for required chemistry for the physics major.  And tucking in the gen ed requirements wherever she can.

 

She complains a lot more about the work load in her "easy" gen ed classes than in the science/math classes.  I think a lot of her problem with the gen ed classes is that she already knows all that stuff.  In her opinion, that's what high school was for.

 

She will only succeed in the double major because some of the gen ed is getting waived for her as a consequence of being in the honors program.  She didn't do any dual enrollment or AP in high school.  She was too busy doing her music stuff at that point.

 

She went into college expecting to double major in comp sci and music.  But... the quality of teaching sent her off in another direction.  The music major alone was going to take HUGE amounts of time.  Not because the material required it but because so much time was wasted in classes and rehearsals.  Her experience is that people in music at her college like to complain about what a lot of time a music major requires -- so they waste as much of it as they possibly can.  She'd rather practice/rehearse/learn in a really efficient manner and it just wasn't working with the culture there.  (I will not be surprised, however, if she fits in a masters in music after finishing her physics BS.  At another school.  Where the place isn't swamped with too many kids who can't figure out what to major in who figure music will be "easy".  If she can end up in an environment with people who are actually dedicated to music rather than finding things to whine about that would make a huge difference.  If she was going to do music, she's the sort of person who should have gone to a school with a very serious music dept.)

Edited by flyingiguana
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If he gets into Berkeley, a Ken Ribet's fan suggested taking Prof Ribet's class as soon as possible if he hasn't retired  :laugh:

 

He is (I think!). DS met him a week+ ago during a math major shadow day! And thought he sounded like a really cool prof! DS was also fortunate enough to sit in a class taught by Denis Auroux (of MIT OCW fame). Thanks so much for your encouragement Joan!  :001_wub:

 

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