Mostly OT - Middle class Americans

[MarkT]

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/05/my-secret-shame/476415/

 

"My wife continued to work, and we managed to scrape by, though child care and then private schools crimped our finances. No, we didn’t have to send our girls to private schools. We could have sent them to the public school in our neighborhood, except that it wasn’t very good, and we resolved to sacrifice our own comforts to give our daughters theirs.

"

 

They should have considered home-schooling.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Well, but you're kind of in the same boat then, aren't you? If I were working full time we'd have a lot more $$, including $$ to pay for "comforts", to have more savings for emergencies, retirement, college . . . it's just another form of financial sacrifice.  I could work, and pay for private school. Or I could stay home and homeschool them.  Either way, I'm out the $$ I'd make if I worked and sent them to public school. 

 

The latter is the best choice for all the other benefits - relationship, lifestyle, etc. - that homeschooling offers. But it doesn't get me "ahead" financially, by any stretch.  

[regentrude]

The article is discussed at length on the chat board. I believe the thread is now 8 pages long or more.

[Tsuga]

Homeschooling is a huge form of financial sacrifice. I could send my ds to the best private school in town, if I was working and getting the average income for my city, and still be ahead of where I am now.

 

14 years out of the full time workforce is a huge sacrifice. So huge, I'm actually not sure it's worth it. 

 

Just because you can't calculate it doesn't mean it's not worth it.  :grouphug:

 

However I would agree that homeschooling vs. private schooling, provided the homeschooling parent could theoretically work outside of the home in some way and the private school has an average private school tuition, has got to come pretty close in the long run particularly when you factor in career advancement.

[MarkT]

The article is discussed at length on the chat board. I believe the thread is now 8 pages long or more.

please post links - I don't normally "chat"

thanks

[regentrude]

please post links - I don't normally "chat"

thanks

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/604331-the-secret-shame-of-middle-class-americans/

 

[...................]

Public School is a huge short term gain.  HUGE.  Free sports, free education, free books, free easy access to the school library, free music lessons and basically almost anything you need.  Sure, you may still end up paying for outside activities but that would be your choice because you wanted something very special or very specific.  Public school is a huge huge money saveer and it also means mom can work at least part time.  So you save quadruple and then you also make money.

 

Now, that said, my husband's career skyrocketed in great part due to me staying at home.  When he worked his way up the ladder, he was able to study all hours because he had no laundry, no chores, no honey-do list, had to do no driving the kids around, and could focus 100%.  THen, on top of that when he changed carreers at age 40, we made it on a very meagre income for a year and a half because I did so much budgeting, bargaining, stayed home with no car, used a food program from a local church, bartered for piano lessons, volunteered to pay for the homeschool sports day etc. etc.  If he had all the stress of switching careers plus all the stress of sharing much of the housework and child care, I can't see that he would have been able to do it.  So there are financial benefits here and there...

 

BUT yes those who pay for private school or homeschool are making huge financial sacrifices.  We believe that ours is about 40,000.00 per year x 14 years of homeschooling, we will have made more than a half million dollar sacrifice to homeschool our kids.  

[...................]

And for those of you that have a more lucrative career (nursing, or white collar, etc.) I'm sure your sacrifice is more like a million dollars.

[luuknam]

That said, there are people who would be stay-at-home parents regardless of whether they homeschooled their kids. There are plenty of SAHMs in my family, and none of them homeschooled. So, if you're going to be a SAHM anyway, then the extra expense is pretty much just in the homeschooling materials.

[Bluegoat]

Even aside of the cash value, you have to factor in things like pension, and especially in the US, health insurance.

 

If I remember correctly, the fellow who wrote that article was a writer and self-employed.  His wife's job may have been the only one with those benefits, or that would provide a steady income when he didn't have money coming in.

 

Homeschooling may not cost as much directly as private education, especially when people have young kids, but it quickly adds up.

 

As far as the article went I thought they should have just left NYC.

[Carol in Cal.]

 

 

As far as the article went I thought they should have just left NYC.

I think living in a place like NYC if you love it is kind of like an addiction.  There is no comparable substitute.  You can resist it, but there is a certain wistfulness about that that is hard to shake.  It imposes its own value system onto your life, more or less permanently.  I read the article as a love song for NYC as much as anything.

 

The specific decisions that the authors made around education are ones that I hear over and over about NYC, and in that area they are typical.  I imagine that it's hard for someone in that situation to even picture/find an alternative place to live.

 

I don't defend their choices, but I understand them.  And, basically, most of their decisions would have worked out bearably if their incomes had gone up as they expected.  It's that change away from being able to project attractive income increases, more than anything else, that defines the shift in the middle class over the last 2-3 decades.  It's been gradual and insidious and relentless.

[Bluegoat]

Yes, people seem to really have an interesting attitude to NYC.  I have a few friends who have left because of children, and it really was wrenching for them.

 

Though, I find myself much more sympathetic to natives of those big cities getting pushed out because of costs. 

[Arcadia]

Even aside of the cash value, you have to factor in things like pension, and especially in the US, health insurance.

Health insurance is the main reason I am looking into paid work rather than being a full time volunteer when my kids finish high school. When hubby was retrenched, the private insurance offered was > $500 for COBRA per person per month. Luckily he got a job offer before the last day of work so we end up paying > $300 per month for family insurance employer subsidised scheme. The 401k employee matching was also a nice to have. Many in his line of work delay retirement as long as possible because of health insurance.

 

ETA:

I'm used to big cities so if based on COL, I would still have choosen the cheapest big city with a warm climate year round.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Arcadia

[Miss Tick]

I think living in a place like NYC if you love it is kind of like an addiction. There is no comparable substitute. You can resist it, but there is a certain wistfulness about that that is hard to shake. It imposes its own value system onto your life, more or less permanently. I read the article as a love song for NYC as much as anything.

 

 

I think you are right, but I feel no compassion for them anyway. I don't live in the place I love. Where I live now makes more sense for my family, especially now that I have kids. Yeah, I miss it, I visit it, but I won't live there again for a while yet.

[...................]

I think you are right, but I feel no compassion for them anyway. I don't live in the place I love. Where I live now makes more sense for my family, especially now that I have kids. Yeah, I miss it, I visit it, but I won't live there again for a while yet.

 

none?

 

I moved around a lot in my life and there is something to say about being where you know people and places, where you have made memories together, and where you can drive/walk/subway/whatever to a familiar friend's home, a family's home, etc.  

 

I don't care if it;s NYC, or the boondocks, it's very human to want to stay in a place that you know.  

[BlsdMama]

As an aside and maybe it's relevant, surely I cannot be the only woman whose husband pushed himself harder and further because we were a one income home than he might have if we were not?

[Arcadia]

As an aside and maybe it's relevant, surely I cannot be the only woman whose husband pushed himself harder and further because we were a one income home than he might have if we were not?

Hubby works just as hard or slack just as much as when we were dual income. My take home pay was about the same as his so we basically halved the family income when I stopped working. We were both working full time for about 6 years before I stopped and we marry late.

 

We are in the part of tech industry where work is sometimes busy and sometimes relax. The relax time kind of offset the overtime when busy but no overtime pay anyway. I actually got a much higher performance bonus while working because part of my job is sales related so I get a bonus for my department hitting quarter numbers.

 

I do know dual income families where the guy works harder after kids are born because the guy is on a commission based job. For example my bank mortgage broker's wife works but he start putting in more hours at the bank branches when his wife was pregnant with their firstborn. My toyota car dealer guy also worked harder and longer hours when his firstborn hit high school age to pay for college because he is on basic + commission.

 

My girlfriends working are funding the couple's retirement and also as a safety if their spouse lose their job. Intel just handed out pink slips recently and hubby's collegues has friends affected. My cousin was retrenched from Intel years back and I still have friends currently in intel.

 

ETA:

Apple had a 25 year old employee committed suicide at the office a few days ago. Apple stock price went down this week which affectes acquaintances who liquidate their stocks to help expenses.

Edited May 1, 2016 by Arcadia

[foxbridgeacademy]

As an aside and maybe it's relevant, surely I cannot be the only woman whose husband pushed himself harder and further because we were a one income home than he might have if we were not?

:iagree: When I started staying home DH got serious about his future career. He took on optional overtime and learned technical aspects of his job he didn't have to so that he was the first person they called when they needed someone.  I do not think he'd have made it to being an Engineer at a major automotive manufacturer if I'd have had the same income as he did years ago when he was starting out as a Preventative Maintenance Tech.  He's just like that.  He works very hard but needs motivation and $$ is a big motivator.  

[Bluegoat]

As an aside and maybe it's relevant, surely I cannot be the only woman whose husband pushed himself harder and further because we were a one income home than he might have if we were not?

 

My husband has been able to do things in his job that would have been almost impossible if I worked.  Not really because he is more motivated, but because he has time and flexibility.

[RenaInTexas]

As an aside and maybe it's relevant, surely I cannot be the only woman whose husband pushed himself harder and further because we were a one income home than he might have if we were not?

 

You aren't. I work with so many men in that situation. For some of them, I see their stress and they do discuss it with me, but I don't feel they regret their role. The ones who don't seem to stress it, have chosen a modest lifestyle and they only stress when layoffs are coming. But there are plenty of two-income homes who would also stress layoffs.

 

My hubby is the opposite. Since I work, he feels free to refuse working tons of hours and no pressure to climb the ladder. He has been able to climb the corporate ladder without compromising leaving work everyday at 4:30. It took him longer than it would have, but he still picks the kids up from school and is involved in every single aspect of our household ... he does everything I (a mom) do(es). We do have our challenges, having both of us working. The house can be mess, we are sometimes both tired, we afterschool and can have a short fuse, sometimes we feel too busy, we end up eating out more than we should. 

 

To each their own. I say; there are millions of ways to raise great kids and only a few ways to absolutely screw them up. So live the life you love :).

Edited May 2, 2016 by RenaInTexas

[Tsuga]

I think you are right, but I feel no compassion for them anyway. I don't live in the place I love. Where I live now makes more sense for my family, especially now that I have kids. Yeah, I miss it, I visit it, but I won't live there again for a while yet.

I have compassion. 4/5 grandparents (one is a step) live in this state, 3/5 within 30 minutes.

 

All our friends are here.

 

Our childhoods were here.

 

Everything is here.

 

"Just move to Alabama and work out of your cheap marble-laden house" is not appealing or fair to us. We have roots. Granted, we could have moved to a smaller city, but ask the kids to even leave Seattle after pre school was hard, and most people left after pre school / K.

 

Family is family, home is home. NYC is pretty insane cost wise so they are feeling the crunch but I totally get it.

[Tsuga]

:iagree: When I started staying home DH got serious about his future career. He took on optional overtime and learned technical aspects of his job he didn't have to so that he was the first person they called when they needed someone. I do not think he'd have made it to being an Engineer at a major automotive manufacturer if I'd have had the same income as he did years ago when he was starting out as a Preventative Maintenance Tech. He's just like that. He works very hard but needs motivation and $$ is a big motivator.

Huh. We both are highly motivated and up to now have TURNED DOWN management roles because they are less interesting. Buying a home, we both wanted to move forward. But we both push ourselves and tag team. Most of the men and women I know in management have working spouses.

[kesmom]

That said, there are people who would be stay-at-home parents regardless of whether they homeschooled their kids. There are plenty of SAHMs in my family, and none of them homeschooled. So, if you're going to be a SAHM anyway, then the extra expense is pretty much just in the homeschooling materials.

 

I have one child in public school this year and have found that it costs us more than homeschooling. (and I am not a super frugal homeschooler either) This varies wildly of course, but there are expenses that come with public school also.