High Cost of College Remedial Courses

[BlsdMama]

Community College is usually open admission no SAT/ACT needed.

 

 

Misnomer. 

 

As an adult returning to college, my beautiful ACT doesn't count.  Apparently when it's 20 years old it isn't valid? So I took the Compass.  Compass placed me in intermediate algebra... This is curious to me as it is remedial and counts for nothing.

 

So, especially among adults and homeschool kiddos who might not learn or remember in an, essentially, recognized scope and sequence, it can artificially shut off the test and give a lower score than you would get if you were to actually take the test as a whole.  I'm taking the ACT as an adult in June.  Funny, yes?  I think so.  But the reason is that I scored higher than DS on his practice Compass....  And he got a 24 on his junior ACTs Math section - that's beyond Intermediate and College Algebra.  If I can score that well or higher, all my remedial math will be waived.

 

It is precisely the way in which the Compass and other entrance exams like it test that causes students to take possibly wholly unnecessary classes.

Now, if they've recently taken the ACT/SAT and still scored poorly then that is a whole other ball of wax.

 

 

ETA:

 

But to this I must say?  Wah?

Diaz, a junior planning to go abroad in the fall, would have preferred to skip her developmental courses. "I felt like I would have been OK transitioning directly into college," she says. "Having extra help made me feel like I wasn't good enough."

 

At the end of the day it's about how she feels?  Little girl, let me help you clarify.  You weren't good enough.  You needed a stronger foundation in order to procede.  So sad - feelings, cry, sob.  But at least you got the help you needed to succeed.  This article could have been spun so differently.

 

Colleges forced to offer classes because students don't come prepared.

 

These days we are seeing a notable trend - colleges and universities are being forced to offer remedial classes to students because they simply aren't well prepared.  John Freshman was interviewed and we thought his insight was valuable. "I was so surprised to find out I wasn't up to par for my Comp I and College Algebra classes!  I took both of them my freshman year, paid for the courses, paid for the books, and ended up significantly damaging my GPA! Ugh.  I really wish the college would have given me the heads up that my test scores looked as though I might need a stronger foundation to be strong academically here.  If only they would have done that, sure I'd have had to pay for an extra class or two, but now I have to take the remedial class, pay for the next class AGAIN, and make sure the original grades get replaced.  What a waste of time, money, and effort."

 

Frankly I don't think the colleges are cashing in. They have to play a catch-up game for high schools failing to do their jobs.

 

Edited April 30, 2016 by BlsdMama

[Sahamamama]

I read a NPR piece yesterday on parent's perception of their student's performance....the Lake Wobegon effect.

 

One snippet in the piece mentioned that only half of all students in a given grade are actually performing on or above level. In other words, half are not, and yet they are still getting moved forward, grade after grade.

 

It would be fascinating if an exit exam was required for high school graduation. I imagine that rates would plummet.

 

We have that here in New Jersey, but... I'm not sure it really means anything.

 

http://www.wnyc.org/story/hundreds-nj-students-graduate-high-school-through-appeals-process/

 

[regentrude]

Freshman level college courses are numbered 100 or above.

 

Remedial courses have a course number below 100.

 

Just wanted to comment that this is not a universal rule.

Our college has four digit numbers, starting at 1000, and a remedial course below college algebra (which is already considered remedial for 90% of our majors)  has a course number >1100.

One should look at the titles, course descriptions and prerequisites to determine.

[MarkT]

We are more selective than a CC, and yet there are plenty of people who are admitted based on good high school grades and place far lower than their grades would indicate. We're talking act-m scores under 16 here, not 'they almost made it'. When I work with them one-on-one, they cannot solve equations of the form 0.5x = 6 (at the beginning of the course). Trust me, if we thought that they had a chance >50% to succeed in college math with some support, we would put them there. 

 

But it is not really their fault that the board of education where they lived allowed them to be denied any semblance of a math education, while systematically lying to them about how they were doing. Why would a student who was getting Bs and Cs in classes that they were told were high school math classes suspect that they were unprepared for university? 

IMHO many of the students are not willing to put the effort in and their parents back them. The schools are somewhat forced to pass them on. I am not saying this is correct or justifiable.

[kiana]

IMHO many of the students are not willing to put the effort in and their parents back them. The schools are somewhat forced to pass them on. I am not saying this is correct or justifiable.

 

The situation is a lot more complex and nuanced than "those kids just don't want to work".

 

When students tell me about how their high school math education consisted of the teacher passing out worksheets and then having the students self-correct while the teacher played on the phone, and how the new teacher they got while this student was a senior was aghast at how little they had learned in 3 years of high school math, that does not tell me that the student and parents were not willing to make the effort.

 

When students tell me about how they saw a fraction for the first time in high school and were very confused, because through their entire elementary career their teacher had never had them work with fractions, telling them everyone did everything on the calculator these days, that also does not tell me that the student and parents were not willing to make the effort. (In this case, you're kind of correct that the teacher was sort of forced to pass them on -- to teach them pre-algebra and algebra 1 while transcripting higher-level classes -- but the alternative to that would be to fail almost all the students for having the misfortune to go to really incredibly crappy elementary schools, since our high schools are no longer able to offer remedial classes.)

 

I could go on with more and more examples, but I've already irritated myself enough for a Sunday morning typing these out.

 

There is a tremendous amount of subtle racism and paternalism in this area which results in the heavily-poor-and-minority public schools ending up with "well they can't really handle anything more, bless their hearts" while their parents are being sent home report cards that indicate that they are progressing just fine.

 

Are some of these kids wasting time and hoping to get by? Sure. But there are also a lot who show up to every single class having done every single homework problem to the very best of their ability (which in some cases is not so high, due to lacking a decent education), show up to tutoring, and still struggle in the remedial classes because it is a hell of a thing to try and remediate years of substandard education in a single semester.

 

And those are the ones I care about. The ones who want to be good students, but don't know how. The ones who thought they were good students until college, because they did every bloody thing the teacher told them to do, and got good grades. The ones whose parents thought they were good students, because they were bringing home acceptable report cards and were never in trouble.

[8filltheheart]

Kiana, the stories I hear from friends with kids in the local schools are exactly the same. The schools here are all digitized. Every student has an IPad or laptop from K up. In math class, the teacher sits at her desk on her phone while they sit at their computers watching videos and doing lessons. If they don't understand, they are told to re-watch the video. They help the kids pass the end of yr assessments so that their graduation rate is not impacted.

Edited May 1, 2016 by 8FillTheHeart

[MarkT]

The situation is a lot more complex and nuanced than "those kids just don't want to work".

 

When students tell me about how their high school math education consisted of the teacher passing out worksheets and then having the students self-correct while the teacher played on the phone, and how the new teacher they got while this student was a senior was aghast at how little they had learned in 3 years of high school math, that does not tell me that the student and parents were not willing to make the effort.

 

When students tell me about how they saw a fraction for the first time in high school and were very confused, because through their entire elementary career their teacher had never had them work with fractions, telling them everyone did everything on the calculator these days, that also does not tell me that the student and parents were not willing to make the effort. (In this case, you're kind of correct that the teacher was sort of forced to pass them on -- to teach them pre-algebra and algebra 1 while transcripting higher-level classes -- but the alternative to that would be to fail almost all the students for having the misfortune to go to really incredibly crappy elementary schools, since our high schools are no longer able to offer remedial classes.)

 

I could go on with more and more examples, but I've already irritated myself enough for a Sunday morning typing these out.

 

There is a tremendous amount of subtle racism and paternalism in this area which results in the heavily-poor-and-minority public schools ending up with "well they can't really handle anything more, bless their hearts" while their parents are being sent home report cards that indicate that they are progressing just fine.

 

Are some of these kids wasting time and hoping to get by? Sure. But there are also a lot who show up to every single class having done every single homework problem to the very best of their ability (which in some cases is not so high, due to lacking a decent education), show up to tutoring, and still struggle in the remedial classes because it is a hell of a thing to try and remediate years of substandard education in a single semester.

 

And those are the ones I care about. The ones who want to be good students, but don't know how. The ones who thought they were good students until college, because they did every bloody thing the teacher told them to do, and got good grades. The ones whose parents thought they were good students, because they were bringing home acceptable report cards and were never in trouble.

WOW this area of the country could really use some school reform - I know there are some lazy teachers out there but this seems to have all in one district

[kiana]

Kiana, the stories I hear from friends with kids in the local schools are exactly the same. The schools here are all digitized. Every student has an IPad or laptop from K up. In math class, the teacher sits at her desk on her phone while they sit at their computers watching videos and doing lessons. If they don't understand, they are told to re-watch the video. They help the kids pass the end of yr assessments so that their graduation rate is not impacted.

 

I actually do not think we are far apart geographically so this does not surprise me in the least.

[8filltheheart]

I actually do not think we are far apart geographically so this does not surprise me in the least.

It infuriates me. Educational neglect in the classroom and people still love their schools. Drives me crazy.

[kiana]

WOW this area of the country could really use some school reform - I know there are some lazy teachers out there but this seems to have all in one district

 

This is not all in one district, but spread across multiple, so a slightly larger pool to draw from.

 

It is improving in some areas (one of my students was very happy to tell me that her sister was learning now what she was learning in my remedial class, because the district had just hired a qualified new teacher) but still has a long way to go.

[JoJosMom]

It infuriates me. Educational neglect in the classroom and people still love their schools. Drives me crazy.

 

This.  Yes, schools are bad, but not our schools, not our teachers.  (We - global we - tend to do a similar thing with Congress. We rail against the body, but keep sending back the same people.  Because our guy is bringing home the bacon.)

 

We ventured into public school, briefly, after we moved here.  The district is well-rated and the elementary school we're zoned for is the highest in the district, so I gave it a shot.  It was unbelievable.  My daughter was in 4th grade at the time, and a significant number of students were reading at the Dr. Seuss level.  So, why were they showing such outstanding achievement?  Well, let me describe what testing looked like there.  Testing was done the day after a review.  "Review" meant sitting down at the computer and going over the test AND THE ANSWERS.   Every test was computer-based and multiple guess, every test and every answer was provided to the student the day before, and every student practiced putting in the right answer the day before the test.  All that was tested was whether the students had a working short-term memory. Oh, and this was a school-wide procedure - an "evidence-based" procedure doncha know - instituted by the much-beloved principal (have you SEEN the test scores at her school?).  Grr.

 

The crowning glory?  The next fall that elementary school was named one of the top 50 in the nation.  Double GRR. 

[luuknam]

Just wanted to comment that this is not a universal rule.

Our college has four digit numbers, starting at 1000, and a remedial course below college algebra (which is already considered remedial for 90% of our majors)  has a course number >1100.

One should look at the titles, course descriptions and prerequisites to determine.

 

I get what you're saying, and that'd be confusing, and it'd be nice if your college would change that for clarity. OTOH, are there any colleges that have courses like 095 (for colleges using 3 digits), or 0310 (for colleges using 4 digits) that are NOT developmental?

 

I've also seen colleges using a different prefix - e.g. DMAT for developmental math, and MATH for college math.

[MarkT]

http://www.nationsreportcard.gov/reading_math_g12_2013/#/preparedness

[MysteryJen]

What we see and hear from students in a very affluent district is that between re-taking tests and being assigned the odd problems in the text which happen to be the very ones answered in the back of the book (Shocking that kids might abuse that...) A and B grades are given out with very little actual understanding. One parent commented to me that they couldn't understand why their kids ACT math score was so low..they get A's in math!

It is absolutely no surprise to me that kids can't pass a placement test. But it is a real surprise to them and their parents.

[regentrude]

I get what you're saying, and that'd be confusing, and it'd be nice if your college would change that for clarity. OTOH, are there any colleges that have courses like 095 (for colleges using 3 digits), or 0310 (for colleges using 4 digits) that are NOT developmental?

 

It is abundantly clear from the course description what the course entails.

 

And for every major, a sequence of required courses is readily available, so anybody can look whether a particular course fulfills a requirement for a major or does not give credit towards this major.

Really, the only thing required here is to be literate.

[luuknam]

What we see and hear from students in a very affluent district is that between re-taking tests and being assigned the odd problems in the text which happen to be the very ones answered in the back of the book (Shocking that kids might abuse that...)

 

When I was in high school the answers to all the questions were in the back of the book, or in the answer book we were given. Same as in college, where we were assigned questions with the answers given and/or were supposed to buy the answer guide. That said, I don't recall homework ever counting towards my math grade. We were supposed to do our homework, in order to prepare for the tests... but if we didn't, then that was our own problem. Having answers when you do your homework is useful because what's the point of doing a zillion problems if you don't know if you're doing them right - better to check after the first one to see if you're on the right track.

 

It is abundantly clear from the course description what the course entails.

 

And for every major, a sequence of required courses is readily available, so anybody can look whether a particular course fulfills a requirement for a major or does not give credit towards this major.

Really, the only thing required here is to be literate.

 

I still think it'd be nice to have some sort of standardization of course numbers. But, I agree. If you're taking a college class, AND/OR you're a parent paying for a minor to take a college class, you should read the course description.

[daijobu]

 

 

The district is well-rated and the elementary school we're zoned for is the highest in the district, so I gave it a shot.  It was unbelievable.   

 

 

I was chatting with a Chinese American friend of mine who lives in a lovely home, lovely expensive neighborhood, school district with a great reputation.  She was complaining about the low quality of the math instruction at her dd's public school. When I expressed sympathy, she said, "That's okay!  I send my daughter to Chinese School!"  

 

Out where I live, the "excellent" public schools in desirable districts have another thing going on.  Many of the immigrant families (Asian, Russian) send their students to after school programs or  weekend schools, which students attend in addition to their regular public school day.  I'm not sure, but I wonder if white parents are even aware of this?

 

This explains why at predominantly Asian schools, white students do much worse than their Asian colleagues.   The public schools get a good reputation because their best students are often being educated elsewhere.  

[daijobu]

When I was in high school the answers to all the questions were in the back of the book, or in the answer book we were given. Same as in college, where we were assigned questions with the answers given and/or were supposed to buy the answer guide. That said, I don't recall homework ever counting towards my math grade. We were supposed to do our homework, in order to prepare for the tests... but if we didn't, then that was our own problem. 

:iagree:  In high school math we didn't turn in homework.  The first half of class (roughly) was devoted to answering questions about homework problems we couldn't solve the previous night.  Second half of class was introducing the next concept and assigning the next night's homework.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  It works surprisingly well.  

[Matryoshka]

Freshman level college courses are numbered 100 or above.

 

Remedial courses have a course number below 100.

 

 

Apparently at our CC, it's 101 or above, as I found out when dd tested into Math 100, which there is Intermediate Algebra (which was the right level, as she hadn't taken Algebra 2 yet).  But I was surprised that it was 100 level, as I thought what you said was true, and 100 level made it not remedial (DE students aren't allowed to take remedial courses at the CC), even though I thought the subject matter was.

 

The advisor corrected my thinking - Intermediate Algebra is remedial, and there it's 101 and up that are college level. (but why be so confusing labeling it that way and not just call it 099 or something?)

[HS Mom in NC]

I was chatting with a Chinese American friend of mine who lives in a lovely home, lovely expensive neighborhood, school district with a great reputation.  She was complaining about the low quality of the math instruction at her dd's public school. When I expressed sympathy, she said, "That's okay!  I send my daughter to Chinese School!"  

 

Out where I live, the "excellent" public schools in desirable districts have another thing going on.  Many of the immigrant families (Asian, Russian) send their students to after school programs or  weekend schools, which students attend in addition to their regular public school day.  I'm not sure, but I wonder if white parents are even aware of this?

 

This explains why at predominantly Asian schools, white students do much worse than their Asian colleagues.   The public schools get a good reputation because their best students are often being educated elsewhere.  

 

Around here most Asian immigrant parents I know send their children to private math tutoring.  All their kids, not just the kids struggling in math.  They attend an hour or more after school and about 4 hours a day several days a week in the summer.  My youngest daughter is a Korean adoptee and attends an Asian run Tae Kwon Do school, so I'm around a lot of Asian immigrants.

 

It's my guess most people who aren't Asian aren't really aware of it as a norm.

[MysteryJen]

Interesting about homework not counting for grades in math. All of mine did in high school and it definitely counts for a significant percentage in the classes I am familiar with. My kids were shocked when they were doing homework with other kids. Most checked the answers first, then did the problems and if they didn't get the answer, just wrote the right one in. Certainly some kids are doing things right and learning math well, but many aren't. They are just getting by and not damaging their GPA in the process.

[Joker]

The two states my dds have attended for middle and high school don't give much credit for homework in math classes. Tests count for 80% of their grade. Quizzes, projects, and homework count for the other 20%. Homework is only looked at for a completion grade.

[Arcadia]

Many of the immigrant families (Asian, Russian) send their students to after school programs or weekend schools, which students attend in addition to their regular public school day. I'm not sure, but I wonder if white parents are even aware of this?

The caucasian parents here are well aware of RSM, Starleague and AoPS. When I attended Bullis Charter School open house many years ago, the caucasian parents said they are there because of the school's asian population. They want an academic school environment and apparently asian parents are "demanding".

 

In my district asians score higher in language arts too. However the non-expat caucasians and asians do more afterschool sports than academics. So asians with both parents born here aren't doing that great either.

 

Also my chinese neighbor who attended k-12 in Fremont unified said her math is too bad to help her kid with k-5 homework so her european husband has to help. On the other hand, the german expat moms can teach their kids math all the way to calculus while the german moms born here could not (ETA: as in no confidence to).

 

There is an academic divide in the asian population here.

 

ETA:

There is also high awareness of Stanford OHS.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Arcadia

[Tsuga]

How is this defined? Let's take math, for example. What is "college level" math?

 

When I attended Trinity University, no math below calculus was offered at that school. However, my son is about to start at Texas State University where the only math required for his intended degree program is college algebra, which he already did DE at the CC.

 

Is that considered remedial? According to Trinity University, I suppose it is. But according to TSU, it isn't. Now, a class that covers fractions, decimals, and percents... yeah, that's remedial. But some others? I think there's too much of a grey area to say, "This is college level" and "This is not college level."

Any math below 101 level is remedial in WA.

 

College algebra, in WA, is 098. Pre-college technically. By the time you finishe you are able to do "college level" math.

[mom31257]

I don't have time to read all the comments, but I definitely have some thoughts about math education in public schools and colleges now that I've tutored a few students from public school and college as well as looked at the new standards and curriculum maps.

 

My experience with local college students is that the colleges have students in a class such as College Algebra who still aren't ready for it or aren't applying themselves.The teachers end up spending a lot of time on review at the beginning of the semester and then flying through the harder stuff at the end. This is only setting them up to fail in any following classes.

 

Not applying themselves seems to be a problem, and I think so much money being made readily available to students for college is actually helping them delay adulthood and adult responsibilities. College can become another high school type, social playground.

 

When I've done some tutoring of public school students in high school math, the topics seems to be all over the place and not following a logical sequence. They have no textbook, so unless they are organized enough to take good notes and keep handouts in a decent order, then they have no resource to look back upon for help. I don't see a progression in the standards which seems to help with mastery. There's a lot of talk about topics that could appear rigorous but not enough practice to really retain the skills. 

 

I decided to teach my kids traditional math the way I learned it using traditional math textbooks and programs. I did Algebra 1 in 9th grade and followed all the way through pre-calculus. I went to high school in the days of no scientific or graphing calculators and trigonometric tables in the back of the book. We actually had to draw all of our graphs on graph paper. I made a 36 on the math portion of the ACT and went on to college to get a math degree. 

 

Dd made a 28 on the math section of the ACT after completing Algebra 2 in 11th grade. She aced her Chemistry for Nursing because she did very well with all the math and has the highest average in her statistics course this semester. Most of her friends, who are all very smart in many ways, can't do math in their heads and always rely on her to do it for them. 

 

Ds is probably doing Algebra 1 in 8th because he is more math-minded than dd. He'll do it only if I think he's truly ready for it. Even if he does, unless he completes it with stellar results, he'll repeat it in 9th with maybe a more challenging course. 

 

I think most students need good, old-fashioned memorization of math facts and processes early in life because most just need every day math. They can delve into the thinking about the whys of math later when their brains are more fully developed and if they are pursuing a STEM career. Pushing kids to do those things too early is backfiring, IMHO. 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 2, 2016 by mom31257

[OnMyOwn]

We live in a very highly rated school district.  A couple of years ago, a bunch of the high school teachers joined together and said that the principal was requiring them to inflate grades.  It took a year for the school board to look into the claim and to decide, that no, all those teachers were wrong and that they were not inflating grades.  What?  The actual teachers said they were inflating the grades because the principal was making them.

 

My niece is in a different ps district and she had a teacher for algebra I that used reversed instruction for that class.  Frankly, it sounded okay to me (basically, the kids watch instruction videos at home and then go over the homework problems in class with the teacher), but my niece did not do well with it and my sister was very unhappy with it.  In the end, she had very little understanding of algebra and got a very poor grade.  But, she will still be taking algebra II next year.  So, whether the class was good or not, it still seems kind of silly to send someone on to algebra II when they still do not understand algebra I.

Edited May 2, 2016 by OnMyOwn

[Arcadia]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that remedial classes ought not be available, only that they should not be necessary for so many students, particularly students who graduated with high GPAs.

Looking at the just released 2015 NAEP results for 12th grade, 25% for at or above proficient for math and 37% for at and above proficient for reading doesn't look good at all.

http://www.nationsreportcard.gov/reading_math_g12_2015/files/infographic_2015_g12_math_reading.pdf

 

The results for 4th and 8th aren't good either.

http://www.mercurynews.com/education/ci_29847919/california-ranks-5th-from-bottom-test-scores-public?source=infinite-up

 

The NAEP data page

http://www.nationsreportcard.gov

[Targhee]

I still don't understand how American University selects someone for admission that needs remediation.

 

Just because the national report card is poor doesn't mean colleges/ubiversities should lower their standards.

 

Besides, this conflicts from anecdotal stories I hear about the extremely high competition for college admissions.

 

The whole system appears broken, and repair probably more cost and labor intensive than restructuring something new. We need a new system.

[daijobu]

I still don't understand how American University selects someone for admission that needs remediation.

 

Just because the national report card is poor doesn't mean colleges/ubiversities should lower their standards.

 

Besides, this conflicts from anecdotal stories I hear about the extremely high competition for college admissions.

 

The whole system appears broken, and repair probably more cost and labor intensive than restructuring something new. We need a new system.

 

Private colleges with a marginal reputations are competing for students to pay tuition so they can pay their bills.  No matter how bad the student, students loans are guaranteed by the government.  Wikipedia explains this better than I do:  "Some critics of financial aid claim that, because schools are assured of receiving their fees no matter what happens to their students, they have felt free to raise their fees to very high levels, to accept students of inadequate academic ability, and to produce too many graduates in some fields of study."  Private colleges are free to lower their standards to whatever they choose.  (I am not criticizing financial aid here except insofar as private and for profit colleges exploit students for financial gain.)  

 

Public community colleges exist to provide a service to the public at large, often underserved students who may be returning to school as adults to retrain for a new economy.  They may require some remediation because of inadequate education, or simply because it's been many years since high school.  

 

I think the general complaint on this thread is that students who are newly graduated from high school should not require remediation, or at least not so many of them.  

[daijobu]

Besides, this conflicts from anecdotal stories I hear about the extremely high competition for college admissions.

 

The whole system appears broken, and repair probably more cost and labor intensive than restructuring something new. We need a new system.

 

There are in fact many colleges with many open positions for students.  You and I could open up a college and enroll students, collect government guaranteed loans from marginal students, and make a quick buck.  

 

In fact, someone did just that, only worse.  They enrolled students in a non-existent college!  (The students were foreign so they paid cash.)  

 

The stories you hear are about competitive colleges with mostly excellent reputations.  Those are competitive.  Then there are the thousands of others you haven't heard of that are struggling to fill their classrooms.  

[Lanny]

When I was young, in CA, they had those Remedial courses for Adults, in Night School, in the High School Buildings.  It is, IMO, ridiculous that people are taking courses like that, in a Community College. When I was young, many people went to trade school or into an apprenticeship program. Now, few people in the USA know how to make or fix anything.  

[MarkT]

Private colleges with a marginal reputations are competing for students to pay tuition so they can pay their bills.  No matter how bad the student, students loans are guaranteed by the government.  Wikipedia explains this better than I do:  "Some critics of financial aid claim that, because schools are assured of receiving their fees no matter what happens to their students, they have felt free to raise their fees to very high levels, to accept students of inadequate academic ability, and to produce too many graduates in some fields of study."  Private colleges are free to lower their standards to whatever they choose.  (I am not criticizing financial aid here except insofar as private and for profit colleges exploit students for financial gain.)  

 

 

related

http://www.thefacultylounge.org/2015/12/gordon-and-hedlund-on-financial-aid-and-rising-college-tuition.html

[Reefgazer]

And if you have read all your free articles this month, just switch to "Incognito" mode to read unlimited free articles any month.  ;)

The NYT has an article entitled Money, Race, and Success: How Your School District Compares, published April 29, in which they chart achievement vs socioeconomic statux. No surpise that my district is the lowest achievement for its status since it doesnt offer the material needed to learn more than basic and we are rural enough that the poor dont get to the library often.

If you havent read all your free articles for the month:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/04/29/upshot/money-race-and-success-how-your-school-district-compares.html?_r=0

 

[Reefgazer]

$$$$$$$

I still don't understand how American University selects someone for admission that needs remediation.

Just because the national report card is poor doesn't mean colleges/ubiversities should lower their standards.

Besides, this conflicts from anecdotal stories I hear about the extremely high competition for college admissions.

The whole system appears broken, and repair probably more cost and labor intensive than restructuring something new. We need a new system.

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Around here most Asian immigrant parents I know send their children to private math tutoring.  All their kids, not just the kids struggling in math.  They attend an hour or more after school and about 4 hours a day several days a week in the summer.  My youngest daughter is a Korean adoptee and attends an Asian run Tae Kwon Do school, so I'm around a lot of Asian immigrants.

 

It's my guess most people who aren't Asian aren't really aware of it as a norm.

 

My older kids to an AMC 8 math exam at a study center started by South Asian families in our area.  It was a pretty amusing conversation among the adults outside waiting for the kids to finish.  I don't think most of them had ever encountered homeschoolers before.  They were very focused on getting their kids on the path to success and knew the requirements to apply to the county and state STEM magnet schools off the top of their heads.  The study center had started out with one tutor who kept having other families ask him for help.  The center had classroom facilities in a non-descript light industrial center by the airport.

 

Some of those magnet schools are criticized for the demographics of who is accepted.  But I wonder if the bulk of the families in the demographics of the lower represented students have spent several years of finding tutoring for their kids.

[Bluegoat]

I don't really think it is odd that universities would have some students in need of remidial courses.  To me what is shocking is that it is so many, especially straight out of high school.

 

But there are legitimate uses of them.  Older people entering later in life is a good example - usually those people are motivated and do well, they have either just changed focus or haven't used the skills in years.  Students that change focus in university.  Even sometimes with younger entering students - they may be very capable but have a gap somewhere.  They can take what they need for remidial work while also working on other university credits.

 

To me the real worries here with it being so common are that it indicates a serious issue with high schools, or it indicates that kids who aren't suited to university education are being sent in that direction.

 

 

[Targhee]

I don't really think it is odd that universities would have some students in need of remidial courses.  To me what is shocking is that it is so many, especially straight out of high school.

 

But there are legitimate uses of them.  Older people entering later in life is a good example - usually those people are motivated and do well, they have either just changed focus or haven't used the skills in years.  Students that change focus in university.  Even sometimes with younger entering students - they may be very capable but have a gap somewhere.  They can take what they need for remidial work while also working on other university credits.

 

To me the real worries here with it being so common are that it indicates a serious issue with high schools, or it indicates that kids who aren't suited to university education are being sent in that direction.

This is the big concern for me.  Concomitant with it is the devolving nature of a college education.  How is it that we can say that not everyone is cut out to be on a certain competitive athletic team, not everyone has the ability to become a fine woodworker, or that not everyone has what it takes to become a professional musician, but it is taboo - biased and arrogant even - to suggest that not everyone should make it to college. -  It is not the only route to a successful life!! -  

 

However, in order to make it so that everyone can go to college we have pulled down the standards of high school so that everyone appears college ready, and pulled down the standards of a college education because the cross-section of the student body isn't ready or possibly capable of higher standards.  Lump onto that the trend to specialization - for most schools it is no longer about building the intellect, virtue, and reason of the student but about producing "marketable skills" - so it's not much more than glorified (and expensive) vocational training.  Don't even get me started on the idea of free college education!  What we really need is personalized education, or at minimum tracks or paths of education to meet various needs of a diverse country and world, at the primary and secondary levels (where it is already free).  Not everyone needs calculus! Not everyone needs advanced literary criticism!  Those who have aptitude for it, and have done the hard work, could go, just as the athlete who has aptitude and has done the hard work could go on to professional sport.

 

My thoughts are going five different directions on this, so I had better stop rambling.  I guess my summative points are: college isn't what it used to be because high school isn't what it used to be, and college isn't for everyone.

[Bluegoat]

Hmm, well I am a big proponent of free university or other post-secondary training.  I don't see that as connected to poorly taught or directed students.

[Targhee]

Hmm, well I am a big proponent of free university or other post-secondary training. I don't see that as connected to poorly taught or directed students.

Public funding for post-secondary training is a different topic and I won't derail the thread with arguing it. Public funding to continue to educate people through college when they should have received that portion of education in high school OR if it could more effectively (in terms of both time and money) be done with on-the-job training is wasting everyone's time and money. I am not speaking only of remedial classes either.

 

My point is that if our current infrastructure of free public schools in the United States was better we would be graduating students better prepared to enter the workforce (as well as entrepreneurs) without the need for college course work or degree. Granted there would still be a place for college education, as well as vocational training, and job-specific training. But it seems as if there is a gradual trend towards upping the amount of compulsory (whether because of law or because of a saturated and inflated market of college graduates) free public education inversely proportional to the quality of education being delivered.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Targhee

[JoJosMom]

Preach it, Sister Targhee.