Gifted 7yo Math

[tayjess]

I will be homeschooling DS starting next fall, he is 7. I am thrilled to be able to tailor his education to where he is at, and love all the resources available. Im trying not to let all the options overwhelm me! It is a privilege to have so many options.

Some quick background. Crawling at 5 mo, reading at 2 1/2,  3 yr old geography enthusiast, just a precocious gifted learner all around. Mainly due to moving, he has been in three schools, although one of them was only 4 months of a private christian preschool program at age 3. Three schools may sound extreme, but the school changes and the fact that we "homeschooled" him instead of putting him in preschool at age 4, have kept things fresh enough for him to stave off boredom through the kindergarten year, he was engaged and himself, although he did have differentiation and was kept challenged. But this year, in first grade, being his first full year in any one school, we are seeing a host of problems arise.  There are many social/emotional needs and gifted quirks that are starting to show. I am confident he will be better served at home. One thing rearing its head lately as we are starting to explore our options for next year, is perfectionism. When he is presented with a challenging question, say when we are doing a pretest for a potential math program, he is quick to give up, and angry when he gets it wrong, just very hard on himself. We are working through how to navigate this part of how he is wired so he can successfully live life with this perfectionistic quality. He, as a first grader is just already so used to skipping through with such ease in school, (although his teachers have differentiated his work, and tried grade acceleration in math), I am seeing that traditional school is just not going to fit the bill. Anyways, I want to nip this in the bud, and realize if he were to be left in a traditional school for years longer, he definitely will not be allowed to blossom. Im afraid the downward spiral would continue of regression, motivation issues, boredom, isolation, feeling that he doesn't fit in with the "norm" and shrinking back trying to become someone he is not.

I want him to realize that being challenged is a GOOD thing, but not so much so that he is overwhelmed, and shuts down. I want him to see how amazing God made him to be, and that his uniqueness is not something to cover up, or try and camouflage, or alter to mimic the norm. I have high hopes homeschooling will provide the backbone to support this dream.

 

my question: Any tips or people who have experienced some of the same issues and been able to gain back the drive and motivation in your gifted child at home? Any tips for getting over the perfectionistic hump, or is this something we just have to teach our kids to learn how to navigate life with this trait successfully?

 

There are three main options I am considering. Beast Academy, Math-u-See, and possibly Singapore. 

 

He took the grade 3 placement test for Teaching Textbooks and it seemed too slow paced, not deep enough to keep his interest, didn't get any problems wrong, and was irritated and lost interest with the slow/repetetive teaching on the computer program. So that is out. 

 

Has anyone started using Beast Academy as their math spine, or is it mainly used for supplementation? I know it is still in development, but the 3A-D seems deep, challenging and fun with the comic inspired theme. 

 

A thought I've had was to use MUS or Singapore as our "spine" and alternate with Beast Academy to feed his need for math.

 

Whats the fuss with Singapore? Also, if we want to do AoPS in the future, Beast seems like it would be the way to go in the early maths to prepare for their program?

 

I want a solid foundation for math and its a little scary skipping a whole grade level for math, but i don't think there will be gaps. If there are any gaps he is such a quick learner (0-3 repetitions for anything) I don't see any problem meeting him where he is at with a more advanced program. ??

 

Any feedback, insight is welcome, I am happy to be a part of this online forum.

 

 

Edited April 20, 2016 by tayjess

[chocolate-chip chooky]

Welcome aboard, Tayjess.

 

I'm still relatively new here, but I thought I'd pop in and say hi.

This board is full of incredibly supportive and experienced parents and it's a comfortable place to chat about our children who aren't neurotypical.

 

Perfectionism is a big, big concern of mine too. I've posted about it before: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/588687-can-we-talk-about-perfectionism/

 

I feel like I'm always hunting for the sweet spot - content that is not too easy (boring, won't engage) and not too hard (overwhelming, won't engage).

When that sweet spot is found, oh wow, we soar. And on those days, I bask in this wonderful homeschooling experience.

 

A couple of things that have helped with perfectionism here:

 

- talking openly about it, talking about the benefits and challenges of it

 

- talking about ZPD. My daughter (just 10) responds well to facts and theories, so this sort of discussion has helped her.

 

- talking about aiming for 'excellence' instead of 'perfection' - just this slight change in wording seems to help a bit.

 

- immediately mixing things up when a perfectionism meltdown is starting

 

This is all a work in progress.

 

Regarding maths, I've never used any of the curricula you mentioned, so I can't comment there.

 

We use a range of resources for maths, so that my daughter can choose from day-to-day. We use Life of Fred, Khan Academy and I also use a local textbook just to give me overview of topics at her level. My daughter doesn't like repetition and usually doesn't need it, so we jump between different things. Fingers crossed, this seems to be working okay for now.

 

[tayjess]

Thank you so much, I like the "aiming for excellence not perfection." Also immediately mixing things up, YES, and yes its a work in progress there is no solution or formula, but we can gain insight from each other.

 

Honestly its amazing to be able to talk openly here and also know that others are experiencing similar situations.

 

I am trying to praise effort, not ever just praise the right answer.  I'm having conversations that hopefully will build in him the truth that mistakes are necessary and to use them to our advantage because that is when our brains grow :). Also brought up inventors/scientists/authors etc who tried time and time again and failed, PERSEVERED and succeeded. 

 

Good idea with the range of resources. i don't want to put him in a box. I am also learning that it is ok to think outside the box with him. i will look into Khan Academy and Life of Fred more too.

 

Edited April 20, 2016 by tayjess

[Mike in SA]

Singapore is just a solid program - accurate, well developed, and well-rounded.  I wouldn't consider it tailored for the gifted crowd.  BA is the only one I might grant that association to.

 

No need to rush at 7 - he will accelerate if he is so inclined.  If he wants to explore, that is perfectly fine.  I wouldn't push perseverance too hard just yet, as you could turn him off math altogether.  To a young child, "perseverance" is another way of saying "it's hard."  Find the fun, instead.

 

At 7, we were doing theory of arithmetic with DS.  It was an old book, but introduced different number systems from history, discussed how numbers are composed, and introduced arithmetic in those various systems.  We only did the first couple of chapters, and allowed him to dabble as he desired.  He wanted to learn algebra, so we built worksheets to take with him to school that just explored concepts (e.g., a three-page build up of compound interest to introduce exponents). At home, we continued with a little basic set theory - creating sets and operations of his own.

 

When we started homeschooling him, we used a college basic math book and AOPS Prealgebra (in second).  In third, we has done AOPS Intro to Algebra, Kiselev's and Jurgensen's geometry texts.  I only mention that to point out how much can change between 7 and 9...

 

 

[Jackie]

We've also kept a range of options around. I always had one main program that we worked from beginning to end (though compacting/accelerating when needed), with lots of other things to choose from when DD was interested in a break. Some of the things we've used to change things up include Math Mammoth topical books, Highlights MathMania magazine, Singapore's Challenging Word Problems, Addition War, Math Dice, Sir Cumference books, books by Theoni Pappas, Bedtime Math, Prodigy Math online game, Dreambox, Dragonbox, Slice Fractions app... I'm sure there's been more.

[chocolate-chip chooky]

I'll also add that at age 7 we were playing lots of maths games and doing lots of real-life maths in everyday situations.

I didn't head into curricula as such until around age 8 when my daughter was really needing (and asking) to head into more abstract concepts.

[tayjess]

Thank you all for your insight.

I will find a solid baseline program and continue to provide a range of games/products to dabble in based on interest. We have always just provided tools at home and if he wants to dive in he can, but being in school all day is tiring and I won't push him to do "extra" work. Often he does though, and it almost has a therapeutic effect, feeding his need to learn...

I have always taught to his interests in every subject, and will continue to have lots of tools/games for exploring and learning based on interest. Also real world exploring and involvement are very important to me. Life is a learning experience for us.

I don't want to push him, but I bring up teaching perseverance in math because he has been underachieving, getting used to doing work at school that he has mastered years prior... And losing his usual love of devouring new things.

. There are times lately we will hit that "sweet spot" of interest and we soar. Looking forward to having time to just be, just learn, explore, and thrive.

MIKE Thanks for your story with your child that makes me excited- the sky is the limit when you remove the ceiling.

[bluedarling]

We combined MUS and Beast.  MUS provided the drill for me, and Beast the challenge.  There were times though, where MUS was so far behind Beast it made MUS pointless.  We ended up alternating rather than using concurrently.  I plan this next year to use Beast again (after a year in ps), and we won't do as much MUS (fewer pages in each lesson, and allow her to pre-test.)  I had considered switching to Singapore, but my dd has asked to accelerate, and MUS will afford that easily.  I won't use MUS for her beyond the basics (through Zeta.)  At that point we'll likely switch to AOPS alone.  I'm just not confident that Beast provides enough drill to solidify the basics on its own.

[tayjess]

Blue darling thanks good input for me. I've read on another thread here that MUS teaches with one manipulative/tool, One method to reach the solution and not so much good at building critical thinking (important to me). Did you feel the same way? Would you start a gifted second grader at beta MUS? And challenge with Beast? I want him to have a solid foundation, but he now is competent in adding subtracting with regrouping, basic knowledge of fractions, multiplication through nines is solid, understands basic division. Understands place value well... He still has 5 mos as well until we start officially diving into homeschooling. I might do MUS beta NOW as supplemental to what they are doing at school in first grade.... And go from there. Hmm

[zarabellesmom]

I have two pretty different math students and I have used and am using Beast Academy with both. My oldest was 6 when the first Beast book was released. She had completed between August and April of her first grade year the first three years of Math in Focus and Singapore Challenging Words Problems and while she had enjoyed math to start and had been asking for more, she was becoming bored and angry and starting to decide she didn't like math after all. Beast saved her love of math. I wish they had released them more quickly. We drug them out as long as we could with other random things (Zaccaro among them). She never needed extra review. She did need extra math fact practice, but I view that as a separate issue. We have moved into AoPS prealgebra this year and she is enjoying it.

 

My youngest started BA this second grade year and she likes it a lot, but she doesn't love math like my oldest. She also needs more review because if she doesn't do things for awhile she forgets them entirely. (Clocks, money, measurements.) So she is working on BA as her main math program and does one page of Math Mammoth's second grade review book every day to keep her fresh.

 

If you like Beast and you think your son will enjoy it, I say go for it. It's pretty easy to tell where a gap is in math and fill it as you go along with a student who is a quick learner.

 

Edited to correct for my iPads auto-incorrect... Good grief.

Edited April 22, 2016 by ZaraBellesMom

[bluedarling]

Blue darling thanks good input for me. I've read on another thread here that MUS teaches with one manipulative/tool, One method to reach the solution and not so much good at building critical thinking (important to me). Did you feel the same way? Would you start a gifted second grader at beta MUS? And challenge with Beast? I want him to have a solid foundation, but he now is competent in adding subtracting with regrouping, basic knowledge of fractions, multiplication through nines is solid, understands basic division. Understands place value well... He still has 5 mos as well until we start officially diving into homeschooling. I might do MUS beta NOW as supplemental to what they are doing at school in first grade.... And go from there. Hmm

 

MUS offers no challenge...just drill and a different style of teaching.  I used it with her before because I had it.  With MUS I think its important to let them be done when they've got it...I was requiring 4 pages per lesson, and it was killing her.  I want there to be some drill, which is why I plan to continue it....if you don't, then you are likely better off with another program.  Its easy to accelerate because there are about 30 lessons per book, and you can do 1 page per lesson or 5 pages plus a test per lesson.  That means you can easily cut out a LOT without any issues down the road if your child just gets it.  Its not fun or challenging, but it gets done!  I do think my kids understand math a lot better than most, but I don't know if that's genes or MUS :)   Your child sounds like he's covered most of Beta?  Have him take a placement test, or if you prefer just get a test book (rather than full curriculum) and see how he does on the chapter tests.  He sounds ready for Gamma (and could probably start half way through since he's solid on multiplication facts!)  If I was supplementing, I think I'd just supplement with BA...its more fun/challenging if he's already getting drill at school.

 

[Tumbatoo]

My mathy girl is 6. She doesn't like manipulatives or examples. She likes to jump right in, figure it out and go. That's why we use Singapore. We're just doing the workbook right now. But I do use games and strategies from the HIG and textbook occasionally. I've looked at Math-U-See so many times since it seems popular. I think it would drive her nuts since she doesn't need the repetition. We use Singapore as our spine and supplement with Dreambox and Prodigy, and plan to also use Beast Academy after she finishes Singapore 2B.

[tayjess]

Wow thanks everyone, your input is much appreciated!

 

UPDATE: DS took beast academy pretest 3A. BA says they are ready if they get 12/16 correct. He got 14/16, we went back to the ones he missed and he understood how to reach the solution after we went through it.... So he is ready.

 

I am going to order Beast 3 series for next year. :)

 

My concerns are.... This will be our first year homeschooling and I have a worry (not sure if legitimate though) of skipping a whole grade level! :/ I would like to toss "grade level" out the window and just meet him where he is at. It's just the traditional school method brainwashing me I think...

 

But if I did something like you Zarabellesmom and did one page of a second grade review book just to keep fresh in the foundations I might feel more comfortable. My MIL who homeschooled 10 kids k-12, some of who I would say are gifted as well, knowing what I know about gifted... She did Saxon and didn't allow any skipping at all. They did every single problem. I think this built endurance, and solid foundations for sure, but with DS I am afraid this would kill his spirit! I'm new to this and I've read that to skip ahead when necessary and do drastic things with gifted children Is a Good Thing. :) ?! Input?

 

So I will stick with my gut here and do Beast 3 series starting next fall, he loved even doing the pretest, after we talked about it being OKAY to get problems wrong. It's at his level, if he has to work through them and actually use his brain! Yippee! He is so used to easy drill work at school and his own differentiated work at school has been viewed as more of an "extra" thing... And it's just not enough.

 

I'll look into Math Mammoth for a second grade review to keep fresh on the basics as well.

THANK YOU

[chocolate-chip chooky]

Tayjess, I understand your concern.

 

We've done a considerable amount of skipping and accelerating over the years and every now and then I have a panic.

I worry that maybe we've missed something vital or we've moved too quickly. What if I'm completely messing up her education?

I'm assuming (and hoping) that these moments of panic are quite normal. It shows we care, right? :o

 

If my daughter had to do a linear program ie every page, every problem in order, well, that would quickly kill her interest and love of maths. And she truly doesn't need to do this. One big reason we homeschool is so that she can do things the way that suit her and move at her own pace. I try hard not to compare the way we do things with others we know IRL. Our kids are all different learners, with different needs and styles.

 

When I do start worrying about gaps in maths, I head to something like Khan Academy for a bit of revision. You could set your son up with the grade 2 level and see if he can master it. It's a different format to book work, so it can feel like a fun extra.

 

I haven't used it myself, but I've heard that the online tests called ADAM and DORA are good for assessing where your child is at in numeracy and literacy. Something like this may put your mind at rest and allow you to feel more comfortable working with your child at a level that isn't his age level.

 

All the best! :)

 

ETA: We have also used the online maths game site called SumDog for revision. You can set the exact type of questions that your child will receive in the games and the games are really quite good. You can also just set a grade level. We hit the ceiling of that a while back, but it was very helpful about 2-3 years ago and my daughter really enjoyed using it.

Edited April 23, 2016 by chocolate-chip chooky

[arliemaria]

What about Kangeroo Math and other competitions?

[desertflower]

We use BA as our main spine as well. I supplement with SM challenging word problems and process skills. Although by the time we get around to process skills, it's too easy.

 

I used to have problems with skipping as well, but if I gave too many problems it's redundant, and he is then bored.

 

BA is fun. We love it.

[arliemaria]

Also apps like Hands On Equations. Haven't tried it yet, but have heard good reviews.

[mckittre]

About Prodigy -- do you actually believe the grade levels on that? It seems way too easy. My 7yo found it recently and is having fun with it, but it gives him 6th and 7th grade questions mostly, and I'm sure he's not that far ahead. The questions seem pretty low on required thinking.

[Jackie]

About Prodigy -- do you actually believe the grade levels on that? It seems way too easy. My 7yo found it recently and is having fun with it, but it gives him 6th and 7th grade questions mostly, and I'm sure he's not that far ahead. The questions seem pretty low on required thinking.

Grade levels are iffy on every program. But Prodigy is definitely sequential. They present questions in a logically ordered sequence.

[sweetpea3829]

About Prodigy -- do you actually believe the grade levels on that? It seems way too easy. My 7yo found it recently and is having fun with it, but it gives him 6th and 7th grade questions mostly, and I'm sure he's not that far ahead. The questions seem pretty low on required thinking.

 

As Jackie pointed out, the grade levels are sequential in Prodigy.

 

That said...content and sequence will vary depending on the curriculum you choose (Ontario, Common Core, MAFS, or TEKS).  The game will adjust grade level material to the student's ability, or you can place your student in an override, or you can assign specific content.

 

I have noticed....when I am assigning content for DS9, I often have to pull assignments from quite a wide range of grade levels.  Some material that he's covered in Singapore 4 and Beast 4, are not in 4th grade in CC or Ontario (the two curricula I typically choose from), but are often in higher grades.  

 

And likewise, sometimes I find topics for him to review in 3rd grade, instead of 4th or higher.  

[tayjess]

We will check out Prodigy. I just made an account. We got dragon box (app) and I've ordered first series of Life of Fred just for some fun review, he loves to read, and they sound like a fun series for over the summer, but we will see as I've heard good and bad about Fred.

We will hold off on starting Beast until the fall when we start officially homeschooling. Right now he is still in school (1st) and his teacher does send home work that is at his level, although I don't push it, as its viewed as an extra thing, and he is tired after coming home from school. I've found when trying to get his work differentiated at school sometimes it ends up just being MORE busy work and not DIFFERENT work. Which he doesn't thrive on. Also when he does his differentiated work in school, he is starting to feel isolated off doing his own thing in a class of same age peers. Realizing he is different. He was grade accelerated for 3 weeks for math, for a trial, and of course did great academically, but the school didn't think he was socially ready for a permanent grade acceleration. I'm just looking forward to meeting him where he is at, and removing him from a hindering system which is making gains in bringing the low achievers up to standard, but the high ability kids are left in limbo, not able to unleash their capacity, and make very minimal gains year after year in what they are actually learning...

Anyway, I also have an old grade 3 math review book by Evan Moore that I can use to keep fresh if we want to use it. Actually have a whole series by them grade 3-5 that was given to me. It seems boring and dry, and have used this mainly as an option available for him to explore, if he wants to dig in he can, but if not no big deal. Even at grade3-5 it is easier and not as deep as beast 3 series.

 

I like the games/books/range of fun resources idea and I think he will love Beast, and love being free from restraints to just be himself and explore and learn. :)

[mckittre]

Grade levels are iffy on every program. But Prodigy is definitely sequential. They present questions in a logically ordered sequence.

 

OK, I apologize for my overly dismissive review.  Once Prodigy was done giving my kid a million and two place value questions (who knew any 6th graders are still learning place value?), it did actually give him more real math.  And whether or not the Ontario 6th grade questions would challenge real 6th graders, most of them seem to be a decent level for my 1st grader, so the program does adapt to him pretty well on its default settings.  I only have to pop over for 1 min explanations now and then.  And the cheesy format of wandering around fighting monsters and catching cute pets is a big hit for the 7yo age group.

 

My kid also liked both dragonbox apps and hands-on-equations (think he got bored partly through level 2 because he thought the white pawns were going to be another variable, and was disappointed there was still only one variable).  He doesn't like paper-and-pencil math nearly as much, though he liked Beast as a read-aloud.