Math recommendations for specific issues

[blessed2fosteradopt]

Hi all:

 

I have previously written about my daughter's issues with all things language as a result of CAPD and most likely dyslexia.  I have received great recommendations and now I could use some help with math.

 

She is using CLE and doing very well with it overall.  She can add/subtract/multiply/divide but does struggle with word problems as is to be expected.  Here is where I am finding she has some major issue.  Although she can skip count, she gets tripped up when using anything but a round number.  For instance, she just did geography review and got 38 out of 50 states correct.  She could not tell me the amount that she got incorrect.  I tried to have her count to the next 10 (48) and then figure out to add 2 more. No go. She had to count from 38 to 50 on her fingers.  She has this issue transitioning to hundreds also.(ex: 96 to 106). After 106 she went to 206.  She also cannot grasp time.  I have worked with her tirelessly.  She is at the point that she can tell time but does still not understand that 1:30 is half past one, 1:15 is a quarter after, etc. If I go a week without reviewing, she will not remember that each number represents 5 minutes. I have worked with manipulatives, clocks, etc. I have the same issues with measurements. 

 

Is there a specific resource or recommendation that would address these issues?  I feel like we need to park for awhile.  She is a rising 5th grader and we are just starting CLE 4.

 

As always, thank you!

[OneStepAtATime]

She may be doing well with CLE without actually understanding the basics of math.  You might look up subitization skills.  Believe it or not, people can do 2 + 2 and if they are missing subitization skills (something most but not all people are born with) then 2 + 2 doesn't actually have any meaning as a quantity.  It is just meaningless numbers on a page that they have learned you write 4 next to.  With your example of 38 out of 50 states, she may not be able to actually conceive of those symbols as quantities or be able to break down those numbers into smaller pieces for manipulation in her mind.  She might very well benefit from using the Ronit Bird e-books or even using Dynamo math for 6 months to try to solidify her basic conceptual understanding of quantity.

 

You might read up on dyscalculia, which can be comorbid with dyslexia.  Since you suspect dyslexia, too, are you trying to get evaluations?  If you go through the right source they may also be able to determine if she is dyscalculic as well as dyslexic.

[Hilltopmom]

My daughter is in the same place as yours. It's very frustrating for the child & the parent/ teacher, huh.

 

No magic answers here, but I sympathize.

 

I second the recommendation for a full eval. It will give you more answers & hopefully help you figure out what resources would work best for her.

[thinkpos]

First-time poster but long-time lurker here...hope I do this right.

 

My son is in 3rd grade public school with an IEP for ADHD and severe language-based disabilities, and had similar issues in math.  These are the things that worked for him. First off, does your DD understand place value?  I find it is crucial foundational knowledge for learning to add/subtract numbers with 2-digits or more. It also gives meaning to the numbers, especially when you use base 10 counting blocks. When I was sure my son was solid on place value and because I knew he has memory issues, I taught him ONE (and only one) addition/subtraction method - the ‘classic’ where you ‘carryover’ or ‘borrow’ 10’s (what is now called ‘regroup’ method).  This is tried and true and works in all cases. I find that he gets confused when I show him more than 1 method.

 

Having mastered 1 method of addition/subtraction, his brain space/energies are freed up to work on understanding word problems which is a challenge because of his language processing and memory issues. We tackled this by working daily on prototype problems to the point he is now able to recognize a one step addition or subtraction problem.

 

I also think that understanding of time and money comes after mastery (or near mastery) of addition/subtraction of 2-digit numbers, so I worked on those in sequence. Being able to skip-count by 5's helps too. Understanding 'half-past ten' or 'quarter to noon' requires language skills as well, so I tried my own version of multisensory math, putting up pictures of clocks with those times and the corresponding language, having him move the second hand to the quarter-, half- and 3-quarter-points (or coloring in those portions of the clock) as he says what time it represents. For money word problems, I always would have him work with coins. There is also this really catchy song that helped him remember the value of each coin. 

,

With that knowledge in place and fluency with 2-digit addition/subtraction, money problems are now an area of strength for him.  But he needed a TON of practice!!!

 

So my advice is – be sure foundational skills are in place, work on skills one at a time and in sequence, try to teach things in a multisensory way, do TONS of practice and continue having LOTS of patience.

 

HTH!

[kbutton]

So, can she do number bonds with 0-10 (pairing up numbers that make ten) without counting on her fingers? If she can do this, I would consider working on some games where she counts with c-rods (and ten flats). (1s, 10s, 100s). Math-U-See Primer has a lot of work with what they call decimal street. Each "house" on decimal street can hold 1-9 of something--units, tens, or hundreds (it's drawn onto a poster paper, and the counters you use fit exactly--you can draw your own to fit whatever counters you have). When you get ten of something, you must collect all of those, and exchange them for 1 of the next biggest item. So, if you get ten units, you put a zero in units house to show that you have no more units, and you trade the ten units in for one ten. The zero is always a placeholder. I would count from 1-10 with this method until it's solid. Then start with numbers like 4 (instead of zero) and have her count up. Then make sure she's solid on teens (MUS actually counts differently to show that -ty means ten), and you can do that too if you want. I think they have a video about this, but they make it parallel to twenty-one, thirty-one, etc.) Anyway. the whole idea is that you want them to realize that all tens are made of groups of ten units. All hundreds are made from groups of ten tens, and so on. You will need to make sure that as she counts, she also uses number cards to represent each decimal place (units/ones, tens, hundreds). She should also eventually be able to verbalize that 12 is one ten and two units, or 59 is five tens and nine units. If she understands her number bonds through ten, then she can understand that to get rom 59 to 60, she needs just one more unit so that she has 6 tens and zero units. You just keep building from there, including finding other ways to represent those numbers, like 12= 10 + 2, 59=50+9 (that's called writing it in expanded form). If she cannot write any number you give her in expanded form, she really can't do any written math that involves regrouping (with understanding), though she might be able to regroup with rods and not connect it to the written steps yet.  

 

Really, getting from 38 to 50 is something that you do a number of ways, and you can break it into multiple steps, then combine those steps to find multiple ways to get there. The problem is that you can't really do it multiple ways if you don't understand the reason the multiple ways work. You need to find out which parts and pieces she understands and doesn't understand to figure out how far back to go. 

 

If she cannot understand this, I think you need Ronit Bird. If she does understand this, she might still need Ronit Bird, but I think this is one way to start figuring out what pieces she gets and doesn't get. If she cannot get exchanging as she counts and changing the number labels for units, tens, and hundreds as she counts, then she's not going to get any kind of mental math, and paper math will just be steps and memorization to her. If she gets it with rods, but flubs up when you switch to counters that say 1, 10, or 100 on them, then she's still missing something. (That's the next counting step after rods that actually show quantity.)

[Heathermomster]

I agree 100% with Kbutton.

 

My DS wore an analog/digital combo watch for a couple of years and finally undertood time around age 13.  He now insists on wearing analog watches only.  He also started handling money better at about the same time.

 

Your child sounds dyscalculiac to me.  I have read a couple of books that have helped me deal with my son and they follow:  Overcoming Difficulty WIth Number by Ronit Bird and How the Brain Learns Mathematics by David Sousa. 

 

For place value, you could pick up some base 10 cubes or MUS blocks and practice rolling dice and building numbers.  I actually made my own place value mat and laminated it so that we could erase numbers using a dry erase marker.  My DD loved that.  I also laminated 10 trays sheet so that DD could practice math facts to 10 and later 20.  If you are near any used curriculum sales, maybe check out the Singapore Standards 2A HIG.  It doesn't touch money or time but will hit number bonds.   

 

 

Edited April 18, 2016 by Heathermomster

[blessed2fosteradopt]

I just wanted to pop in for a quick moment to say thank you for the replies so far.  My oldest is turning 18 tomorrow and has prom this weekend  :w00t: so I am a bit crazed.  I look forward to reading all of the advice thoroughly when I can breath.  As always, thank you so much for your generosity.

 

 

[DeniseF]

My ds 8 has dyslexia and dyscalculia.  When we started using ShapeMath, everything got so very much better.  Instead of me trying to explain with words and squiggles (numbers), I could use the Shapes  to communicate with him.  He was able to really get it.  For me, it meant working with him on math became fun (ok, well not always).  I actually enjoy using ShapeMath myself but I mostly love that I don't end up in arguments with my ds.  ShapeMath enables him to picture 9+8 as specific shapes and then he can "see" that it's 17.  As we moved on past addition and subtraction (finally!!!) the big surprise was how easy it was for him to learn division and in fact, that is his favorite.  One of the first problems I gave him was 42 divided by 7 and, by drawing the shape of 42 and 'cutting out' successive shapes of 7, he could see how many 7's he'd cut out.  I remember having him divide 27 by 3 and his next problem was something like 49 divided by 3 and he didn't even have to draw it, he could picture how he would divide it and he "saw' the pattern in his head about how you can take 3 threes out of each ten with one left over and then pile up the leftover 1's to make more 3's and he answered the problem within a few seconds.  That kind of mental leap, from him, blew me away!

 

He is now learning long division and it's going well.  IHe hasn't memorized the facts though he knows some.  That may take a much longer time if ever but he can use a facts table and he 'gets' what he's doing).  He doesn't use ShapeMath for every problem but that is how he understands the math and he can go back and forth between normal representations of numbers, the shapemath pieces, and his own drawings of shapemath pieces.  When he gets stuck on something, I suggest he picture it in shapemath.  He doesn't always like to do that (I think he doesn't like doing it differently than his sisters and everybody else) but that's what works for him to understand.

 

ShapeMath has specific ways of picturing time and converting seconds to minutes and minutes to hours.  It also has specific ways of picturing money.   

 

It takes an investment of time for you and for your child to learn ShapeMath but it's made a world of difference for us.

 

 

[blessed2fosteradopt]

So, can she do number bonds with 0-10 (pairing up numbers that make ten) without counting on her fingers? If she can do this, I would consider working on some games where she counts with c-rods (and ten flats). (1s, 10s, 100s). Math-U-See Primer has a lot of work with what they call decimal street. Each "house" on decimal street can hold 1-9 of something--units, tens, or hundreds (it's drawn onto a poster paper, and the counters you use fit exactly--you can draw your own to fit whatever counters you have). When you get ten of something, you must collect all of those, and exchange them for 1 of the next biggest item. So, if you get ten units, you put a zero in units house to show that you have no more units, and you trade the ten units in for one ten. The zero is always a placeholder. I would count from 1-10 with this method until it's solid. Then start with numbers like 4 (instead of zero) and have her count up. Then make sure she's solid on teens (MUS actually counts differently to show that -ty means ten), and you can do that too if you want. I think they have a video about this, but they make it parallel to twenty-one, thirty-one, etc.) Anyway. the whole idea is that you want them to realize that all tens are made of groups of ten units. All hundreds are made from groups of ten tens, and so on. You will need to make sure that as she counts, she also uses number cards to represent each decimal place (units/ones, tens, hundreds). She should also eventually be able to verbalize that 12 is one ten and two units, or 59 is five tens and nine units. If she understands her number bonds through ten, then she can understand that to get rom 59 to 60, she needs just one more unit so that she has 6 tens and zero units. You just keep building from there, including finding other ways to represent those numbers, like 12= 10 + 2, 59=50+9 (that's called writing it in expanded form). If she cannot write any number you give her in expanded form, she really can't do any written math that involves regrouping (with understanding), though she might be able to regroup with rods and not connect it to the written steps yet.  

 

Really, getting from 38 to 50 is something that you do a number of ways, and you can break it into multiple steps, then combine those steps to find multiple ways to get there. The problem is that you can't really do it multiple ways if you don't understand the reason the multiple ways work. You need to find out which parts and pieces she understands and doesn't understand to figure out how far back to go. 

 

If she cannot understand this, I think you need Ronit Bird. If she does understand this, she might still need Ronit Bird, but I think this is one way to start figuring out what pieces she gets and doesn't get. If she cannot get exchanging as she counts and changing the number labels for units, tens, and hundreds as she counts, then she's not going to get any kind of mental math, and paper math will just be steps and memorization to her. If she gets it with rods, but flubs up when you switch to counters that say 1, 10, or 100 on them, then she's still missing something. (That's the next counting step after rods that actually show quantity.)

I am back! Sorry for the long delay in responding to such valuable information. With regard to my daughter, she was not diagnosed with dyscalculia in her initial diagnosis (CAPD, dyslexia) but when I read the definition it seems to fit her.  She struggles terribly with time, money and measurement, word problems (CAPD) and counting backwards. In addition, today's lesson was doubling numbers and it reduced her to tears.  With ones, she is fine but throw in a number like 47 and it gets her.  The text instructs to add the 10's column which would be 80 and the ones 14 and then combine.  She just cannot seem to master it.  She is getting it right some of the time but without certainty and understanding. It's the tens that are tripping her up.

 

 So with this information, would you recommend the Ronit Bird resources with the c-rods or MUS Primer?  I have decided to just park for a bit and work on getting this solid with her.  We have worked with an abacus in the past and I am going to break it out in the interim.

 

Thank you so much for your help,

 

Lisa

[PeterPan]

I am back! Sorry for the long delay in responding to such valuable information. With regard to my daughter, she was not diagnosed with dyscalculia in her initial diagnosis (CAPD, dyslexia) but when I read the definition it seems to fit her.  She struggles terribly with time, money and measurement, word problems (CAPD) and counting backwards. In addition, today's lesson was doubling numbers and it reduced her to tears.  With ones, she is fine but throw in a number like 47 and it gets her.  The text instructs to add the 10's column which would be 80 and the ones 14 and then combine.  She just cannot seem to master it.  She is getting it right some of the time but without certainty and understanding. It's the tens that are tripping her up.

 

 So with this information, would you recommend the Ronit Bird resources with the c-rods or MUS Primer?  I have decided to just park for a bit and work on getting this solid with her.  We have worked with an abacus in the past and I am going to break it out in the interim.

 

Thank you so much for your help,

 

Lisa

 

You want Ronit Bird's Exploring Numbers with Cuisinaire Rods.  It will do what you need.  I wouldn't add Primer onto it, just me.  Focus on RB and really DO it and milk it.  Like when I do RB, I'll take it farther.  I'll put the manips onto a small magnetic whiteboard in front of us (love!!) and say hey could we write an equation for this?  Could we write it a different way?  Doing this, we've covered subtraction, negative numbers, commutative property, etc.  And it's all very obvious, very natural.  LOVE Ronit Bird.  Her ebook is under $10.  You really can't go wrong with it.

 

For time, we keep track of it a lot because of needing to go places for classes and therapies.  We talk a lot about "about", like it's "about" 4 o'clock or whatever.  We do this in the car.  Works for us.  For measurement, we have days where we spend the whole time measuring.  Very hands-on.  For counting backwards, I have some 100 charts I got from Rainbow.  They're maybe $1.25 a piece.  Seriously.  I got a whole pile of them.  RB put on her FB feed an idea for using them for games.  But for physically showing skip counting, counting backward while touching, whatever, they work really well.  Or print a 100 chart and put it in a page protector.  I like the 100 chart because the size works for touching.

[PeterPan]

Hundred Number Chart  This is what I have, though mine are yellow instead of blue.  They're only 75 cents!   :D

 

Think about all the math that is happening when you do an "about" with a digital clock.  I do abouts to the half hour and hour.  I'll even try to get him to do abouts to the quarter hour.  So he's naturally thinking ok how far is 3:57 from 4:00, kwim?  We talked through it at first, then he had it.  He had it because it *mattered* to him.  

Edited May 3, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[kbutton]

Ronit Bird is cheaper and meant to be more foundational for kids who struggle with these concepts. I have not used it, but it won't hurt, that's for sure! The rods are more easily transferred to other programs as well because they are not specific to MUS. If you can borrow Primer, I would still recommend taking a look at it to see the thinking process just because I found it helpful, but Ronit Bird is really highly recommended. When you feel like you know what areas are problematic, if you are still having trouble, chime back in. If you feel like you see where the struggles are and can help with them, then you'll know how to evaluate materials to use going forward to support what is working and what is not. You'll know (within reason) when you might need to slow down or break topics down into smaller pieces for her. If you still struggle with that, chime back in then too!

 

I would do things with manipulatives as much as possible to get that concrete information in there--words are going to slip through the cracks with CAPD. Take the time to label things, write for her, etc. to let her focus on the meaning of things. Multi-tasking is rough on CAPD kids!!! That's worth saying again--multi-tasking is rough on CAPD kids!!! Ronit Bird first, and then look around at options that continue to be very hands-on. You will want to evaluate that number sense before you move on at every,single.step. 

 

As OhE said, you can extend activities, but be sure she's solid before you do that. Have an idea of what order math concepts tend to make sense, and be sure you aren't leap-frogging over a concept that is an in-between step. Or, if you do skip over something, and she "gets" it, be sure to explicitly fill it back in. (I have one kiddo that makes amazing intuitive leaps, but can't figure out the steps in between, and it creates anxiety.)

[blessed2fosteradopt]

Grrr! We are not an Apple family and from what I can see my only option for the recommended book is via IBooks.  Is this correct?  I was/am ready to jump right in with her.  Today was really rough.

[kbutton]

I want to say there are print books as well, but I don't own them. Okay, google says there are books at Barnes and Nobles and so forth. Oh, there is a google play book.

 

https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=vnhpBAAAQBAJ&source=productsearch&utm_source=HA_Desktop_US&utm_medium=SEM&utm_campaign=PLA&pcampaignid=MKTAD0930BO1&gl=US&gclid=CPHsz7iiv8wCFUgBMgodlRIEUg&gclsrc=ds

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  about your rough day. Keep it light and low stakes for her as best you can until you find something that works. Anxiety just compounds this. I KNOW how hard it is to remain calm and not be frustrated. Hang in there!

[Heathermomster]

I am back! Sorry for the long delay in responding to such valuable information. With regard to my daughter, she was not diagnosed with dyscalculia in her initial diagnosis (CAPD, dyslexia) but when I read the definition it seems to fit her.  She struggles terribly with time, money and measurement, word problems (CAPD) and counting backwards. In addition, today's lesson was doubling numbers and it reduced her to tears.  With ones, she is fine but throw in a number like 47 and it gets her.  The text instructs to add the 10's column which would be 80 and the ones 14 and then combine.  She just cannot seem to master it.  She is getting it right some of the time but without certainty and understanding. It's the tens that are tripping her up.

 

 So with this information, would you recommend the Ronit Bird resources with the c-rods or MUS Primer?  I have decided to just park for a bit and work on getting this solid with her.  We have worked with an abacus in the past and I am going to break it out in the interim.

 

Thank you so much for your help,

 

Lisa

No...Do not use MUS Primer.  Primer is written for Kindie aged students and is an introductory type class; however, the MUS blocks are great!

 

Given that your DD has CAPD, I would expect a more visual and kinesthetic approach would work for her.  If she knows the complements of 5 and 10 already, working with a Soroban abacus might benefit her.  Otherwise, maybe explore the RB work using dominoes for subitizing and start building 2 digit numbers using the MUS blocks or whatever manipulative that you have available.

 

I uploaded a basic 2 digit place value mat.  Using a laminated mat, DD would role dice to select a 10s and units value.  I would jot the number down with a dry erase number, and then she would build the number.  We did this over and over again, and my DD loved it.  You need fun, consistent, and brief learning episodes.  

 

ETA:  Here is a great website for finding subitizing activities.

2-dig-Place-Value-Mat.pdf

Edited May 4, 2016 by Heathermomster

[blessed2fosteradopt]

Thank you for the links and encouragement.  My lack of computer savviness is showing. 

 

I also appreciate the encouragement.  CAPD is so frustrating and comes with so many challenges.  It breaks my heart to see her struggle so, so much  so that I broke out the Easy Bake Oven. :)

 

I am going to order the Dyscalculia Tool Kit today and just work in it for now. She will enjoy the games.

 

Thank you again,

 

Lisa