Freeman & Dake's "Teach Me Language" vs. Sundberg's "Teaching Language" vs. Hanen "TalkAbility"

[Crimson Wife]

Which of these three books would be best for a child with HFA who is developmentally at about the same level as a typical 4.5 to 5 y.o.?

 

Which of the three would you rather your child's SLP have read and have experience with using?

[PeterPan]

I haven't seen TL.  The Hanen book can't remember if I saw in person (through the library) or just online.  The problem for me is that sometimes by the time I find things we're beyond it.  There are, of course, multiple ways to accomplish things.  So TalkAbility comes way *before* TML.  They're just not even the same thing.  TML is to fill in the language gaps that affect academic subjects so a student can mainstream.  It's aimed at school age, kids who are ready to mainstream and need holes filled in.  Hanen is a much younger focus, the stage before that, and it's about play and developing language.  They're just not at all the same.

 

If Hanen calls to you and it's what you want to do, fine.  You'd do TML with older students.  I'm not actually sure TML is aimed at SLPs either.  Ok, I'm looking at it, and it says it's aimed at parents, SLPs, and/or trainers as part of a therapy program.  It suggests three pre-reqs: visual learner, table ready and compliant, able to communicate.  So to me, as a consumer, I look at TML and I go ok, am I going to pay $110 an hour for this?  Nope.  If I'm not implementing it myself, I'd have one of the behaviorist's providers to it for $15 an hour.  Because it's not that swanky complicated.  In our area, with the way funding is done for autism, a consumer would be more likely to get that service through a behaviorist.  

 

But I like TML a LOT, kwim?  It seems pretty unique.  I think it would be good for SLPs to have this training, sure.  But to me it's like ok you have to think how you got that client, what you were working on first, and why they're now progressing to working on this, kwim?  Because this was not the first thing.  This is like ages 6-14.  The Hanen book would be younger, I think.

 

Haven't seen Sundberg. What's the jist?

[Crimson Wife]

Sundberg developed the VB-MAPP. My DD is almost all done with the VB-MAPP skills so my concern is that she might be beyond what his book covers.

 

I wish I could find these books through ILL because then I'd be able to see them before I spend ~$50 on something that might be the wrong level for my DD (even if it might be a good reference for my future career).

[kbutton]

Sundberg developed the VB-MAPP. My DD is almost all done with the VB-MAPP skills so my concern is that she might be beyond what his book covers.

 

I wish I could find these books through ILL because then I'd be able to see them before I spend ~$50 on something that might be the wrong level for my DD (even if it might be a good reference for my future career).

 

I broke down and bought TML. If you have specific questions, I'd look at it for you, but I am not familiar at all with the others.

 

What skills are you wanting to work on? I might be able to describe how the book addresses them to help you gauge the level TML uses.

[Lecka]

To me Teach Me Language would mostly be on the "too advanced" side for that age group.

 

For Hanen, I have read More Than Words, and I see it as more of a parent book. I don't know about Talkability, if it is more of a professional book. I like More Than Words.

 

I don't know about the Sundberg book, but I would be concerned about it being too technical on the ABA side. I do have a high opinion of him, but frankly I would struggle to read a book written for people who know all the terminology. I love, love, love the Verbal Behavior Approach and iirc he wrote the foreword for that book (but I'm not sure). I would feel like this book (the Verbal Behavior Approach) would not be the right level; I think it would be too low of a level to be really helpful. (The Verbal Behavior Approach is written for parents, it does not have all the terminology and abbreviations of some books.)

Edited March 27, 2016 by Lecka

[Lecka]

http://autism.esc2.net/2006_Conference/Handouts/SUNDBERG/TeachingLanguage.pdf

 

This is an excerpt from TL. Based on glancing ---- I would get the Verbal Behavior Approach book bc it is written in a more easy-to-read style. It also looks like it is more for early learners, but I don't know for sure bc I just glanced. But I think VBA has a good explanation of things like chaining and errorless learning etc. that I would still like a speech therapist to be familiar with. It is not too hard to read.

 

The concept of "tacts" and "intraverbals" is important to me bc my son has a gap between his tact and intraverbal repertoires, and I am frustrated sometimes with people not realizing that he has a different level when he talks about things he can see. I think this is an autism thing for him and so I would want a speech therapist to get this kind of idea, that yes he can have pretty darn good back and forth exchanges when he can see things in context, or even have a small picture prompt, vs with no visual of any kind. Seeing things in context is a huge help for him! He can't talk as well when he is out of context or has no visual.

 

That is just one of my pet peeve things, bc it can come across as a motivation or behavior kid of thing, and that will make me feel very frustrated.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Lecka

[Lecka]

Just to be clear -- I think the VBA book is also for more of an early learner than what you are looking for. But it is not too technical, and I do really like it.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Lecka

[PeterPan]

So yes, then TL and TML are totally different.  TML is showing you how to get the language skills to click so they can do their academics.  So, for instance, it explains a visual way to bridge from word to money, something my ds has struggled with.  It has multiple chapters on the writing process and goes from beginning steps (how to differentiate details from topic) all the way through outlining.  But it's not a writing curriculum.  It's only trying to fill in the steps a person with a language disability will struggle with.  

 

My ds is gifted, 7.5, and he's *maybe* close to being able to start TML.  I've gone through it and flagged 10 sections we could begin work in.  We just haven't had a chance to.  Honestly, we have a lot more important things to work on.  But as those improve, that's where we're headed.  But 7 or 8 I would think at least.  Or I'm all wet.  Kids really do vary.  At age 5, TML would not have been within reach for us.

[Lecka]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1843108526/ref=mp_s_a_1_1/181-6272560-2715956?qid=1459041735&sr=8-1&pi=SY200_QL40&keywords=verbal+behavior+approach&dpPl=1&dpID=51vodl5aNXL&ref=plSrch

 

Just in case you are interested.... This is the book I like so much (lol) and the intro is by Dr. Sundberg.

 

I had borrowed TML a little while back, and I remember it had a section on calendar I was interested in. But it is not exactly like it is calendar for a child of age 4-5, either. I did think it looked good.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Lecka

[PeterPan]

TML's explanation of the calendar is how I finally figured out why ds was so confused.  Basically he didn't get the idea that it was a sequence, that it was starting over.  It's a really good book when it's the right time.  I think it's something you can't go wrong with, in that sense, but it doesn't seem like it's very timely.  

 

You know, if I were just scratching my head saying hmm what got us breakthroughs, what was worth a lot, it would be books by Jean DeGaetano.  She has an AWESOME book Attention Good Listeners.  All her other stuff is great too.  That one was pivotal for us, because it was actually what allowed LIPS to click.  And as a therapist you'll like at DeGaetano's books and see lots of ways to use the materials.  You can take that one worksheet and practice working memory, rapid naming, etc. etc.  She has some books for auditory processing that are good.  That would be good stuff for you to be doing now, anything by DeGaetano.  It's stuff the SLPs where we go keep on hand, just really terrific open and go materials that work.

[Crimson Wife]

What skills are you wanting to work on? I might be able to describe how the book addresses them to help you gauge the level TML uses.

 

DD's SLP at the deaf & hard-of-hearing clinic is doing a lot of good work with her on auditory discrimination, articulation, listening comprehension, "function" words (prepositions, pronouns, conjunctions, etc.), answering wh- questions, etc. Basically the areas where individuals with hearing loss often struggle. It is definitely helping DD and makes it worth the schlep to the city every week.

 

But what I think is lacking from the ST is targeting the ASD-related language quirks. DD has a lot of language but often struggles with getting her point across in a way that other people can make sense out of (and I'm not talking about articulation). A lot of times she'll say something and the listener can understand every single word she's said but the meaning of the utterance as a whole is unclear.

 

Her ABA program does include language goals but right now they're mainly focusing on teaching vocabulary & concepts. DD does need to fill in the gaps but it doesn't really address the issue of speaking in a way that gets her intended meaning across.

[PeterPan]

Nope, TML is not what you need.

 

What are they suggesting?  That isn't a problem ds had.  Ds was taught with scripted speech, so we'd play a game or do an activity and build from a repeated script that involved the words for the turn-taking and play.  Totally scripted.  Now what his therapist does is sort of in-between.  They still have scripts, but he also has opportunities to say his comment and then she motor plans it for him and helps him say it completely.  It's tricky because you don't want to spend a lot of therapy time (in his case) saying things incorrectly.  That's why they stick to scripts, because then they can give him the prompts directly, without the in-between, because the reply was part of the script.

 

Hanen would be much more where you are, I think.  Her other progress (learning WH-questions, etc.) sounds really good!  Do you work with her at home or is all her work done in sessions?  How do her providers work with her?  If you have the chance to observe, then you could build on whatever methodology they are using.  For my ds, a lot of that was scripts for a lot of years.  Then he had enough articulation that he was scripting (repeating, using) chunks from movies and audiobooks.  Some of that has faded back, hallelujah, so we're finally getting to his actual speech.  But that is honestly just in the last few months.  Even up into December we were hearing noticeable amounts of scripting.  He'd say these things that weren't typical of his normal speech, so that's how we knew he was scripting.  

 

I guess some people don't like scripting, but it was fine as a stage, a stepping stone.  I'd rather have that than nothing, if that makes sense.  You could fill some of her time with audiobooks or tv shows or other input that has the language you want her to learn and see if she memorizes it and uses it.  Or does audio not work for her with her SN?  Dunno.  Anyways, I'm just saying that's one thing I try to do, because I know scripting and memorizing the language and using it has been good (effective) for him.

Edited March 27, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

Just rereading what you wrote.  Honestly I think you have to give it time.  She has her wh-questions and lots of skills, which is really pretty fab for how young she is.  My ds is JUST NOW giving really interesting speech, and he's 7.5.  Your dd is 4.5, yes?  It might be, rough as it is to ponder, that she has a lot more steps to go through with her interventions before she gets there.  Obviously do all you can.  I'm just saying there's probably going to be a progression.  It's something your providers can probably anticipate, so you could ask them.

[Crimson Wife]

Just rereading what you wrote.  Honestly I think you have to give it time.  She has her wh-questions and lots of skills, which is really pretty fab for how young she is.  My ds is JUST NOW giving really interesting speech, and he's 7.5.  Your dd is 4.5, yes? 

 

Nope, she turned 7 in January.

 

She's just functioning like a typical 4.5 to 5 y.o. would because of the developmental delay. She's got scattered skills (gotta love 2E!) but the bulk of them are in that age range.

[PeterPan]

Hmm.  Well I can tell you things I flagged in TML for my ds.

 

word associations, analogies (which leads into conversation skills)

emotions, safe/dangerous, fact/opinion (critical thinking)

beginning paragraphing and outlining

pronoun referents, using wh-questions to make conversation

sequencing/comparing with numers

 

It's a really trim source, b&w, kind of spartan.  I can imagine you're like well we already covered that.  So I don't know, maybe you don't need it.  I think sometimes the thing is going farther with what they're doing with it.  Like they're going to look at verbs, use them to build super sentences, but then work on seeing them in text.  So it's not really what you do with a younger dc, even though it's still just verbs, if that makes sense.  To me it's sort of the next step.  Like ok you sorta get WH- questions, so now let's do something more with it.  

 

TML hits SO many topics, it might be that something else that hits that same topic would be more thorough.  The beauty is having it all together.  So when it's like why doesn't my kid get X, it's in there.  But for emotions, for pretend play, for conversation, for any of the topics in the book you'd probably be going oh but I already have good things on that.  It's just unique in the way it's trying to say this is the little spot where the child will glitch and we'll help you fill that in so he can go back to the regular curriculum. It's also unique in that it makes visual concepts that wouldn't necessarily be otherwise. 

 

[Lecka]

My son has some things where he says things in an odd way. We are re-phrasing it in the way it makes more sense, but not having him repeat it.

 

For example -- when we were visiting my mom, my mom had set out a shirt for him with a panda on it, and he said "I need an unpanda shirt." He meant he wanted a different shirt. My mom had no idea what he was talking about. I re-stated, "oh, you want a different shirt."

 

He says "Emma Darling is waiting for us" when he wants to leave (sometimes). This means he wants to go home, and our dog Emma is at home, so he says that to mean "I want to go home." I will say "oh, you are ready to leave" or "oh, you are ready to go home." I will try to see if there is something bothering him that I could help him with.

 

I know what he means, but other people do not know what he means, b/c there is a lot of missing context for them, and he is not saying things clearly.

 

If it is this kind of thing, and there is a better solution, I would love to do it.

 

Sometimes my son will use my phrasing in the future ---- it is like he just didn't know a different way to say what he wanted to say. Sometimes he doesn't.

 

In a way it is good for him, because it does mean he is using more language that he has put together himself.

 

I have also seen, he is getting better at seeing if someone doesn't understand him, he will try again to get his point across. So sometimes I do pretend not to understand him so that maybe he will try again with me, and maybe say it more clearly, and then I can say "oh, now I know what you mean."

 

I would be interested if you find anything out.

[Lecka]

This is an aside, but I went to an autism workshop last year and this woman was one of the speakers. http://www.amazon.com/Pretending-Normal-Aspergers-Syndrome-Spectrum/product-reviews/1849057559/ref=cm_cr_dp_synop?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=recent#R2LIC59B5P7FKZ

 

She talked about how she did like to use different words for things sometimes, and it was like ---- she liked it, she liked to be creative, she liked to think about how things could be, she likes to play with language.

 

It seemed very nice, and very creative.

 

But then she said, sometimes it got her in trouble, b/c people would think she was weird, or people would even think she was incompetent, b/c of how she talked.

 

So she had do dull things down to talk to people using boring language, and she had to recognize when that would be needed based on responses she got from other people.

 

So I feel like ---- I do like it when my son says things and they are "him" and they are creative. But he needs to be able to communicate, too, that is what he wants, he wants people to know what he means when he says things.

 

So, that is what I am thinking right now, I guess.

 

I don't know, my son has only recently started talking enough and having enough sentences that he made himself, to start seeing him say things that are idiosyncratic. I am not sure what I will think about it 6 months from now. I am still mostly going "my, what a long sentence you used, and it is not one you have memorized."

[Lecka]

This is an aside, too, but do you know what kind of thing she is trying to say?

 

My son is not trying to say things that are really complicated, he is trying to say things that are fairly straight-forward.

 

But he has "sentence building" where he is just working on saying a sentence in the right order and with adding components to make the sentences longer and more informative.

 

He is newer at it, he is not adding many elements.

 

But it is like -- there will be a picture to describe. Or a sentence picture strip (since he doesn't read). He might use the picture prompt to help him describe a picture using a certain kind of sentence structure.

 

So is it like that kind of thing?

 

I am picturing it more like -- not using the usual word, or describing things and not knowing the listener doesn't have the necessary background information to know what he is talking about.

 

My son has quite a few things he says that would make sense if you knew some background information, but if another person doesn't know it, they can have no idea what he is talking about.

 

I think that is going along with his theory of mind deficit, and he does have programs, where they have things that he can see and the other person can't. It can be just holding up a book and having something on his side, and saying "can the other person see it" type of stuff (that is not really the program, but it is along those lines, I don't explain it well).

 

But it involves showing him "look, the other person literally can't see what you are looking at, it is only on your side of the paper."

 

But that is a reason some of his sentences are not understood. He talks about our dog all the time, and people will think "oh, he is talking about another child who is present" b/c that is how it would come across.

 

I am trying, as it is possible, to re-direct him to talk to people, I am trying not to be his translator. Sometimes I have to be, but other times, he can do it himself.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Lecka

[kbutton]

DD's SLP at the deaf & hard-of-hearing clinic is doing a lot of good work with her on auditory discrimination, articulation, listening comprehension, "function" words (prepositions, pronouns, conjunctions, etc.), answering wh- questions, etc. Basically the areas where individuals with hearing loss often struggle. It is definitely helping DD and makes it worth the schlep to the city every week.

 

But what I think is lacking from the ST is targeting the ASD-related language quirks. DD has a lot of language but often struggles with getting her point across in a way that other people can make sense out of (and I'm not talking about articulation). A lot of times she'll say something and the listener can understand every single word she's said but the meaning of the utterance as a whole is unclear.

 

Her ABA program does include language goals but right now they're mainly focusing on teaching vocabulary & concepts. DD does need to fill in the gaps but it doesn't really address the issue of speaking in a way that gets her intended meaning across.

 

Okay, take this with a grain of salt because I have a lot less experience in the linguistic, behavioral, and speech/hearing area than these ladies do. I don't at all disagree with them, but here are some thoughts I have. A lot of my son's novel language came and went before we had a diagnosis since his diagnosis was so late, but he most definitely used novel language. It really did depend on a certain amount of shared experience to understand him sometimes. My family is fairly good at making word associations, so even with my parents, he could be understood (we all joke we play Taboo when we talk because we all forget the word we're trying to use). I honestly think that helping him feel understood motivated him to try more language, and then, like Lecka said, providing a more typical way of phrasing the response seemed to help. He sometimes had trouble with people who didn't know him, and he also had problems with people mishearing him because they didn't expect him to know thus and such at a certain age, so this came both from the ASD and from being a 2e kid--his interests were just different. He had the advantage of excellent hearing and no auditory processing troubles though, so he could listen a lot and store up more words.

 

I can almost guarantee that if my ASD kiddo was my 2nd, 3rd, or 4th child, I would not have had the time to parse out what he was saying and untangle it, and his novel language would have stuck around longer. I was also home with him a lot, so our activities were largely shared activities, and at that point, if he read something or watched something, I had a pretty good idea of what could be going into the way he formed his thoughts. That made it easier for me to untangle what he might be talking about. I was also highly motivated to understand him because he was very, very frustrated when I didn't understand him. That was not pretty! 

 

The TML book has exercises on word associations as the very first exercise. If your daughter is successful with that, you might find that activity insightful. TML suggests doing the drills "to see and verbalize the relationship between words...develop the ability to answer Why questions, and...understand the concept of Why - Because." (my emphasis) It is also supposed to help auditory comprehension--one purpose of the book is intended to work on auditory processing. (So much so that I may try it TML with my CAPD kid who doesn't have autism.) I personally think that it's also a great way to get inside your kid's head. Put your own theory of mind to use while they are developing theirs--sometimes we come there way, and when they realize someone "gets" them, they can start coming our way. Word associations are the very first exercise in the book.

 

My son needed the bits and pieces (the words, the vocabulary, the experiences), but he also needed the idea of Why - Because (as they put it) explained to him a little bit. I think sometimes with 2e kids, we have to give the parts, but sometimes you have to give the whole and then show where the parts go (Dierdre Lovecky suggests that 2e ASD kiddos need both whole to part and part to whole). I think it sounds like your daughter is getting the parts in therapy, but maybe doesn't have a lot of getting incorporated into her awareness of what other people are thinking. 

 

Any chance that you can draw a parallel for her (or give some concrete examples) of theory of mind that goes along with visual thinking? LIke maybe talking about visual logic types of puzzles? Or attributes of visual things that allow her to display some linguistic thinking that goes along with her best skill set? Maybe looking at attribute blocks--why are these similar, what makes them different, etc.? I am at a loss for examples that are probably good ones, but if she has novel visual thinking, that's likely a more abstract skill for her. It might let her into the secret that language does get to be more abstract, and that it involves shared thoughts, not just looking at the same things at the same time. I may be totally in the wrong direction. 

 

I think as long as you back off if you have frustration, you could try something different from what the SLPs are doing. Whether that's TML, I am not sure, but I would look at more pieces. 

 

My 2e ASD kiddo has no hits to language or hearing or auditory processing, so my ideas may be silly or just not in the right ballpark at all. 

[Crimson Wife]

I am picturing it more like -- not using the usual word, or describing things and not knowing the listener doesn't have the necessary background information to know what he is talking about.

 

My son has quite a few things he says that would make sense if you knew some background information, but if another person doesn't know it, they can have no idea what he is talking about.

 

Yes, I think this is the issue. Sometimes I can eventually figure out what she's trying to say, like when she kept asking "what's this one called?" as she's holding a crayon she actually wanted me to read her the name of the color.

[Lecka]

I have the pre-school set of books from Social Thinking, and they have a neat idea of using a "thought bubble" to show what kids are thinking. It is a little over my son's head, but it is also a nice way to try to explain it. I like it a lot, but it is not like "oh, he gets it now."

 

There is also "cartooning" that, well, a person told me she thinks my son is ready to understand it. But I haven't tried it.

 

This is where you explain something by drawing a cartoon of what you are both thinking.

 

There is someone in my school district who really likes cartooning (it is like -- an autism strategy).

 

My son also had a program, I think from ABLLS where he would need to let different people pick a sticker they wanted. He kept trying to give them the sticker he liked. But he got better at it and doesn't just try to give other people his own preferred item. I don't think he is at a "4" level. The example for "4" is something like "student states that one friend likes apples and another friend likes bananas. When asked who would like bananas, says that the friend who likes bananas would like to have a banana." It is something like that.

 

I think you can ask your agency, they might have an idea for how to work on it. My son has had times of trying to force my daughter to "take the pink one" in a way where it is like -- it gets to be a behavior issue. So it is important for him to understand "she doesn't have to have the pink one if she wants a different color" bc that is not something he should get angry about. So they may have programs along those lines that might be helpful.

 

But those are things I think have addressed this area that my son has done, or that have been mentioned to me. He is also 7, he turned 7 in November.

 

Edit: I don't explain it well, but there is a thing where there is a picture, and the child can see all of it. Another person can only see part of it, bc a paper or a folder is held up so they can't see the whole paper. Then you say "how many frogs do YOU see?" And then "how many frogs can SHE see?" Then you can say, see, she can't see the frogs on this side, but you can. There is stuff like this I guess. I don't know that much about it.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Lecka

[Crimson Wife]

bumping for Kinsa