Executive Functioning Issues-Testing?

[DawnM]

Our 10th grader is in PS (Charter) for the first time this year, after being homeschooled for K-9.

 

He is an A/B student and taking a couple of honors level classes.   

 

However, what we are realizing is that if the teachers put the work on the board, he is good about writing it down and doing it.  As long as he knows to DO IT, he will do it.  

 

But there have been multiple instances lately where the teachers tell the class verbally and he doesn't catch it.  He doesn't even know to do it.

 

We always thought he was very smart but a little dingy, but we are now thinking this is executive functioning.  I notice when I tell him to do X and then Y, but do it verbally, he does X but completely forgets Y.

 

He came home 3rd quarter with two C's.  Thankfully one teacher was nice and let him make up a lot of the work and he is now back up to a mid B.  However, the other teacher we have had issues with this entire year and she is of the, "nope, he missed it, he fails, oh well." mentality.  She is a brand new teacher and about 23 and feels the need to play hardball to assert her authority.

 

So, here is my question:  

 

How do we get him tested?  Do we do it through the school or do we do it privately?  What exactly do we ask for?

 

If this were on an IEP then the written only accommodation would be in place.  We need it.

 

Thanks,

 

Dawn

[City Mouse]

Well, executive functioning issues alone are not enough to qualify for an iep. You may want to see someone to find out if ADHD is a possibility (which could possibly qualify for an iep or 504 plan). The other thing to know is that a C in public school is considered fine. The child is not likely to get any accommodations in many schools. Many schools will try to say that since the student was previously homeschooled, he has just not had an opportunity to learn the required skills.

[DawnM]

UGH.

 

He doesn't not have ADHD.  He might have ADD?  I really couldn't tell you.  My oldest has Asperger's and I will readily admit that all of my focus has been on him until this year.  When we homeschooled, I would just remind him to do his work if he forgot.  He always got A's on classwork and A's or B's on tests.

 

I think college will be easier for him.  For the local colleges, the professors post all the work online on Moodle.  If he sees it, he does it.

 

We are looking at dual enrollment for next year.  That might actually work better for him.

[Heathermomster]

You DS sounds like mine, which means slow processor and primarily inattentive ADHD.  I read tons of info about EF and what to do, but IRL I feel like we are grasping at straws.

 

DS was identified ADHD inattentive through NP testing.  We are currently using a CBT counselor to work with DS on EF skills, and DS sees a child psychiatrist for meds.  At the moment, DS is not on meds but will start again over the summer so that our school year isn't disrupted.  

 

DS carries an Echo Smartpen and Android phone with EverNote loaded on it to class.  Whenever he is given a sudden assignment, he has to place a reminder in his phone immediately.  He also calls a classmate and emails the teacher whenever there is doubt about an assignment being due.  Your DS could also email the teacher daily and ask to ensure he didn't miss an assignment.  That would irritate her, but if she refuses to write info down, what can she seriously expect?  

Edited March 18, 2016 by Heathermomster

[school17777]

Our school district has the teachers post assignments to something similar to Blackboard. So, even if the assignment was just given orally, it would (should anyway) be posted to Blackboard which the student or parent could look up. Does your school do something like this?

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

I would maybe seek an evaluation through a neuropsychologist but I agree, the school may not see enough of a discrepancy to offer any sort of extra support.  And they also very well may just assume that since he was homeschooled he was not taught these skills and needs to just learn how to stay organized.  The schools in our area don't want to step in unless a student is actually functioning at least 2 grade levels behind where they should be.  Ridiculous but that is their view.

 

Is there a classmate he could turn to?  Maybe he could network and see if another classmate would be willing to help him confirm assignments each night?  

 

I know with DD I often had to talk to the teacher to confirm assignments but I also networked with other parents and students so I had people I could call if DD wasn't sure.  She had the same problem as your son.  Teacher would toss an assignment at them verbally as they were packing up to rush out the door to the next class.  Naturally, by the time she got to the next class the assignment details were gone and sometimes that there was even an assignment in the first place.  Some teachers were more willing to make sure it was written down on the board.  Others didn't think that was necessary and that the student just had to suck it up and deal with it.

[Storygirl]

You can ask the school to evaluate him, but based on our experience, they need to have at least one classroom teacher who will agree that testing is a good idea. Our school wanted to have what they called "classroom data" showing a possible disability. At the meeting to determine whether they would evaluate, the teachers involved contributed various "data." Some teachers had a few test scores to point toward or a couple of samples of work. Others just gave a verbal summary of issues they saw in the classroom. And then the special education coordinator looked around the room and said, "So, do we have an agreement that we should evaluate?" And the teachers nodded.

 

I wasn't impressed with the "data" they contributed, compared to the data I contributed (full NP reports with scores and diagnoses for both kids), but they really only cared what the teachers had to say.

 

I don't know that all schools would be that way, but I do know that if the teachers don't see the problems, the school can choose not to evaluate, even if the parents ask.

 

Maybe you could touch base with a teacher that you think sees the issues and ask if they would support a request for an evaluation. If not, I might seek private evaluations first and then bring the reports to the school as evidence that the school needs to evaluate.

 

This is exactly what I am doing now for another of my children. DS10 is having some problems following what is going on in class, but his teacher thinks she can just do some extra things to help him. When I asked about evaluations, she responded, "let's wait." So while SHE is waiting, we are getting some outside testing that we can then present to the school as a reason for evaluating (if the testing shows issues).

[Storygirl]

Now all attention issues are called ADHD, whether there is hyperactivity or not. They would just code it ADHD-- inattention type.

 

You can ask your family doctor or pediatrician if they will run a test for ADHD or EF. Some are more willing than others. Some people go to a psychiatrist in order to have someone who has more specialty with the meds; psychologists can also diagnose ADHD (but can't prescribe meds).

 

If you don't think you would pursue meds, I might look for a psychologist. They are more likely to be able to write a report that includes suggestions for school accommodations than your family doctor.

 

It doesn't necessarily have to be a neuropsychologist, unless you think there may be other underlying learning disabilities, but with someone in your family on the spectrum, it might not be a bad idea to go for that bigger evaluation anyway, because they can give you more information.

 

There are also educational psychologists who can run tests such as the WISC, which would give you a ton of additional information that could help explain things.

[DawnM]

Our school district has the teachers post assignments to something similar to Blackboard. So, even if the assignment was just given orally, it would (should anyway) be posted to Blackboard which the student or parent could look up. Does your school do something like this?

 

No.  

[DawnM]

Now all attention issues are called ADHD, whether there is hyperactivity or not. They would just code it ADHD-- inattention type.

 

You can ask your family doctor or pediatrician if they will run a test for ADHD or EF. Some are more willing than others. Some people go to a psychiatrist in order to have someone who has more specialty with the meds; psychologists can also diagnose ADHD (but can't prescribe meds).

 

If you don't think you would pursue meds, I might look for a psychologist. They are more likely to be able to write a report that includes suggestions for school accommodations than your family doctor.

 

It doesn't necessarily have to be a neuropsychologist, unless you think there may be other underlying learning disabilities, but with someone in your family on the spectrum, it might not be a bad idea to go for that bigger evaluation anyway, because they can give you more information.

 

There are also educational psychologists who can run tests such as the WISC, which would give you a ton of additional information that could help explain things.

 

That is what we did with our oldest, but it costs $1800.  Insurance covers about $600 of it.

 

Sigh.  I am not sure we can do that right now.

 

The argument from our insurance is that the academic tests can all be run in the schools so they don't allow for any academic/cognitive testing, and the psychologists won't run the neuro testing without the academic/cognitive tests run first.  

 

He only has 2.5 more months of school.  Maybe we can just stick it out for this year and hope that the professors for dual enrollment will indeed provide all the assignments on Moodle like they are supposed to.

 

Dawn

[Storygirl]

Our NP was expensive, too, but the counseling psychologist was covered by our insurance. DS was initially referred to her for anxiety, but she did a thorough intake interview and ran the ADHD screenings in addition to evaluating for anxiety.

 

Maybe you could start with your family doctor/pediatrician and if they can't run the ADHD tests, ask for a referral to a counseling psychologist. Perhaps your insurance would cover that under mental health. Maybe?

[Tiramisu]

My dd did exactly the type of thing you are talking about. I used to be a helper in some coop classes and I would witness how she could completely miss a homework assignment being given. I'd talk about it with her afterward and she had no idea at all. She had evals but only got a CAPD dx. I really think there is more going on with her, though. Maybe the right testing would have teased out ADHD or even ASD. Who knows. She has the same struggles but is doing well in college. It helps that she's in a small program with everyone more or less taking the same classes, so her classmates can remind her about assignments. To help keep track of things she uses her ipod, or now her phone. She also kept a written calendar to double check herself.

[kbutton]

Our pediatrician uses the Vanderbilt survey (given to parents and to teachers to fill out) to diagnose ADHD. I think there is more than one version of this test, and he has one he likes in particular (I think it's ADHD only, but others have some ODD and OCD questions, maybe?). 

 

Also, have you ruled out CAPD? If he's organized with written stuff but not verbal, I think it's worth looking into.

[DawnM]

Just an update.

 

Child finished 10th grade at the charter school.  He is still on the A/B honor roll.   He is a smart kid, but he also has to work at it.  He is a strong student but not stellar.

 

What we saw in his grades on a weekly basis were A,A,A,F,A,A,F.  The F's were the assignments he didn't catch because they were verbally given.  Most of the teachers would not really work with him on it even if they said they would.

 

SO, we are going to get him tested.  My guess is that he has some auditory processing issues.  He may also have ADD.

 

It will be pricey, but I think it is worth it for his future.

[kbutton]

Just an update.

 

Child finished 10th grade at the charter school.  He is still on the A/B honor roll.   He is a smart kid, but he also has to work at it.  He is a strong student but not stellar.

 

What we saw in his grades on a weekly basis were A,A,A,F,A,A,F.  The F's were the assignments he didn't catch because they were verbally given.  Most of the teachers would not really work with him on it even if they said they would.

 

SO, we are going to get him tested.  My guess is that he has some auditory processing issues.  He may also have ADD.

 

It will be pricey, but I think it is worth it for his future.

 

I think the testing will be helpful. I am glad he finished the year well.

 

I would raise some serious crap for the administration about the verbal assignments--you are asking for a reasonable accommodation that shouldn't even require paperwork!

 

I would strongly recommend using the Livescribe pen or some other accommodation that was mentioned upthread--someone posted (in another thread, I think). that their child who uses a Livescribe pen will make a mark in the notebook that it's an assignment given orally, so that they can go back and listen to the oral portion on the pen later.

[PeterPan]

That will be good to get evals! Are you lining up an audiologist? That sounds pretty significant.

[DawnM]

That will be good to get evals! Are you lining up an audiologist? That sounds pretty significant.

 

Not yet, I will be talking to them and meeting with a psychologist first and will ask what she thinks.

 

He WAS in speech therapy in 2nd and 3rd grade but he has not had speech problems in years now.

[kbutton]

The psych may be able to run a computerized SCAN 3, which is an initial screening for CAPD. It's not as definitive as a booth test by an audiologist, but it could help you decide if you want additional audiology testing. I would definitely want that ruled out or ruled in with what you described (I have a kiddo with CAPD), and the SCAN 3 at the psych was really our only clue at first. We knew nothing about it before that.

[DawnM]

The psych may be able to run a computerized SCAN 3, which is an initial screening for CAPD. It's not as definitive as a booth test by an audiologist, but it could help you decide if you want additional audiology testing. I would definitely want that ruled out or ruled in with what you described (I have a kiddo with CAPD), and the SCAN 3 at the psych was really our only clue at first. We knew nothing about it before that.

 

 

I wonder if that is the same test my oldest had when we went to the Audiologist.  He has Asperger's and they wanted to rule out auditory issues.  Turns out he hyper hears and it distracts him from what he needs to hear.

[kbutton]

I wonder if that is the same test my oldest had when we went to the Audiologist.  He has Asperger's and they wanted to rule out auditory issues.  Turns out he hyper hears and it distracts him from what he needs to hear.

 

My older son with ASD was given SCAN 3 first, so yes, that is a possibility. My kiddo with CAPD doesn't have ASD, but I hear anecdotally that some sibs of kids with ASD end up with some of the peripheral issues that can come with ASD, like CAPD, speech problems, etc. 

 

My ASD kiddo hears everything too, lol! When he was a baby, he'd hear outdoor sounds blocks away and go wide-eyed--motorcycles, trucks, birds, firecrackers. (Mostly he liked the sound enhancement, thankfully, and he did eventually make peace with toilet flushing and sweepers.)

 

My CAPD kiddo has his own quirks--he has a bit of sensitivity, but the odd thing is that while he has trouble with sound, he can also play the piano by ear! He's not the only CAPD kiddo I know that does. The whole thing makes zero sense, so I always recommend people test rather than contemplate testing, lol!

[PeterPan]

There's a different test they do for sound sensitivity.  The SCAN3 is specifically for APD.  The first page is used as a screening tool.  Given that he's specifically having trouble with auditory, I'd start looking for your audiologist of choice and not wait.  If you have a university with a strong program, you can try them.  Around here, I can get that screening for $35 with a two week wait.  If you go privately, it's a much longer wait, and they want to see updated psych and SLP evals.  

[DawnM]

I think the testing will be helpful. I am glad he finished the year well.

 

I would raise some serious crap for the administration about the verbal assignments--you are asking for a reasonable accommodation that shouldn't even require paperwork!

 

I would strongly recommend using the Livescribe pen or some other accommodation that was mentioned upthread--someone posted (in another thread, I think). that their child who uses a Livescribe pen will make a mark in the notebook that it's an assignment given orally, so that they can go back and listen to the oral portion on the pen later.

 

 

But he doesn't know when it is given!  It could be a little end to the first part of class, "Oh, by the way, do numbers 10-14 on the page we are on, ok, now put your books away" type of thing. OR it could be at the very end of class.

[kbutton]

But he doesn't know when it is given!  It could be a little end to the first part of class, "Oh, by the way, do numbers 10-14 on the page we are on, ok, now put your books away" type of thing. OR it could be at the very end of class.

 

Even more reason to throw a fit at the school administration, IMO and to get that auditory screening. He's not doing this purposely.

 

You may need evals to push the school into doing the right thing, but during the process of getting a 504 or IEP or whatever you want to get, I would make sure I had a log of efforts you've made, response by the school, and actual data on how it played out. If they suggest that you just want special snowflake status and that they can accommodate his issues without a formal document, you can whip this out and tell them that they've not bothered to do this when asked nicely.

 

My son's worst CAPD symptom on the limited testing they could do is that he doesn't process speech at an acceptable rate in real time. That particular symptom could manifest in your son having a delay in hearing or missing what the teacher is saying now because he's working through something said earlier. 

[kbutton]

BTW, if you end up with a CAPD diagnosis, there has been a court case where CAPD rose to an IEP level under "other health impairment" rather than as an SLD. Depending what you need and how much protection you want, you might try to argue for an IEP, but it's tricky. (We got an IEP based on OHI for CAPD, which blew my mind--it was over the objection of the psych, but the team members recognized that my son's issues were pervasive, and it wasn't just about speech or about not having "low enough" test scores. He was at risk, and he was already being given an IEP for speech--they simply broadened the qualifying category and wrote some IEP goals for CAPD (in his case, this is following multi-step directions given orally--I think it starts with being able to do two things sequentially). 

 

 

[DawnM]

He is changing schools this fall.  He was at the Charter last year and will be attending the local public school this year.  

 

He attended this district for 2nd grade.  He actually HAD an IEP for speech back then.  They said they will dig up his files.  That may be enough to get the IEP back up and running even though he doesn't need speech now.  

 

The good news is that this school WANTS the higher test scores from all students as they are #1 in the area and want to stay that way, so maybe that can work in my favor.

 

 

[DawnM]

There's a different test they do for sound sensitivity.  The SCAN3 is specifically for APD.  The first page is used as a screening tool.  Given that he's specifically having trouble with auditory, I'd start looking for your audiologist of choice and not wait.  If you have a university with a strong program, you can try them.  Around here, I can get that screening for $35 with a two week wait.  If you go privately, it's a much longer wait, and they want to see updated psych and SLP evals.  

 

 

My older son was tested last year.  Our co-pay was $0.

 

I just looked up what he was tested for:

 

Tympanometry & Reflex Thresh

Evoked Auditory Test Limited

Evaluation of Central Auditory Processing

Comprehensive Audiometry

 

My insurance paid for all of it.    But it was through a referral from a Behavioral Ped.  I am not sure if I need the referral or not, I am going to call.

[DawnM]

Ok, called insurance, they will cover it.

 

Called the Audiology department at the local hospital where my other son was tested, they won't talk to me without a referral.  ARGH!!!!!!!!

 

So, he will see the doc next week and get the referral and then go get tested.

 

Now to see if there is a way to get him tested for ADD without going to the Psychologist office and paying the $900 for the academic tests first.

 

ETA:  Ok, now I remember, I need a referral for the audiologist AND the Behavioral Ped.  I will be asking for both when I go in next week.  That will make all the testing just a co-pay.  If I need more testing than that, I will pay.

Edited June 21, 2016 by DawnM

[DawnM]

Follow up.  Pediatric Behavioral Health agrees with me completely and sees possible ADD, but definitely Auditory Processing.

 

He is scheduled with the Audiologist for August.  They couldn't get him in earlier.  GRRRR!

[Kat w]

We adopted a teen out of foster care, a whole host of LC.

Honestly it probably varies by state some but, there aren't really services for HS kids outside what they would offer reg es kids anyway.

 

Here's what I did:

Called each teacher and spoke of concerns and asked for them to lost assignment on board, and not at end of class , etc etc. W/e the issues were.

I setthem uo with a color coded notebook for every class. Each class had a diff color .

Every Friday I called teachers or they called me ( I asked them to call me but sometimes they'd dirget) to talk about what was going on, what was assigned and what was due when.

I had the teachers email me with what paper, project etc was die when.

 

This was highly effective .

It was particularly helpful with teachers like the new one, to see, I am working with them and active in his life and want to help him develop and keep food habits. Those same hardcore teachers would then make some allowances knowing w were on it.

 

This changed an F student into a solid high C student. ( he had MANY LC that had never been tested )

This also make the child feel successful which you know, is so important .

Good luck

[DawnM]

We tried, rather unsuccessfully, to ask the teachers to make sure it was written down.  Without the diagnosis, they honestly just don't care too much.  They are busy and they just don't remember.

 

He is going to a new school this year and we will be starting again, so I am hoping this will be better.

 

He was going to go to the early college program and honestly, that would have been good.  Having a syllabus with clear explanations would help him.  He does the work and gets very good grades, when he knows what to do.

[PeterPan]

Follow up.  Pediatric Behavioral Health agrees with me completely and sees possible ADD, but definitely Auditory Processing.

 

He is scheduled with the Audiologist for August.  They couldn't get him in earlier.  GRRRR!

 

August isn't bad for an APD eval, mercy.  Around here it can be a 6 month wait.

 

Are they also sending you for psych and SLP evals?  You REALLY want those.

 

Is this audiology with a university or some place with a full booth eval?  There are some innovative things out there like hearing aids.  You want to go to the best place you can get, even if it's a longer wait.  Or get on the list at the longer place and take your results from the first place and go over for more opinions and options, kwim?  

 

The hard thing about evals is knowing what to DO with the info.  The detailed testing, not only audiology but also SLP and psych, will help you pull that together for a game plan. 

 

And, fwiw, there's anecdotal evidence of ADHD meds *improving* the APD symptoms.  Just something to factor in.

Edited July 17, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

Who handles accommodations for the early college program?  Is it at the high school or at the college?  I would find out who handles that and start that discussion now, yes!  Even though high schools are stuck in the dark ages, colleges are often bending over backwards to give accommodations and help to students.  They have a financial motivation to make sure students succeed and stay in the programs!  

 

He might get note takers, preferred seating, etc. etc.  When my dd had her audiology eval, they told her which ear was her better ear (ear advantage) and they said to request an accommodation for seating like in front and to where her better ear would be toward the prof, not toward A/C and things.  So you're definitely going to get some info like that you can use right away. 

 

[Kat w]

OhE, I'm so glad you shared thst about the meds helpin APD. I did not know that. Noone mentioned that to us.

Oh, this chickey is making appt about that. My youngest lil guy , whew APD , just, don't even have words for it.

Si encouraged to hear this . thank you for sharing.

 

I agree about the dual enrollment being better fir them than the HS setting, I would add, pleas go the community college route instead of straight to university. The class sizes usually max out at about 30. And they get LOTS more indivualized help from professor .. Not to mention, less noise ,chaos, smaller building to navigate, etc.

[PeterPan]

I'm not saying cure on the APD.  I'm just saying can *help*.  But yes, that percentage help could be a big deal for your kid.  If the meds were indicated anyway, it's another reason to try them.  

Edited July 17, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Kat w]

Yes, a very small help would be huge for him. This is my youngest . he currently isn't on med. But would definitely benefit from it.

His APD is severe. I fel so bad in the earlier years he got in alot of trouble my thinkin it was a behavioral issue.

Guilt plaqued a little :/

This is the one thst I asked you about reading comprehension . he could fly his eyes over the words but have absolutely.. No...idea what he had read.

Testing showed it was language deficiency /APD and ADHD.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Kat w

[PeterPan]

Are you getting help with the language issues?  I went through Super Duper Inc's listings by diagnosis, and they have listings for APD.  That's how I found The Grammar Processing Program, and it has been terrific for my ds.  When they have speech, you really don't get how much those glitches are affecting them.

 

I think it's one of those where you could use the data from the testing plus your own gut sense and make some choices, done maybe 10-15 min a day, and probably see dramatic improvement.

 

And yeah, it's like a bunch of 10%s that add up to make a more functional child... The language thing would be even higher, like a 20% piece.

 

Is he getting any physical accommodations for his APD?  

Edited July 17, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[SanDiegoMom]

Just here to say that even without any functioning issues, that's pretty unfair of a teacher. My oldest daughter has been PS all her life and her teachers always either put the assignment on the board, in a calendar that they distribute, or on their webpage.  I would never dream that my daughter would catch an assignment given verbally -- paying attention six hours a day isn't possible for anyone -- we all drift off occasionally! She usually comes home and checks the website for the homework assignment.  In the rare cases that there was something that wasn't on the calendar she has a large study group for each class that she can text to ask if there was something she missed.  But this year (11th grade,  four A.P.'s) only one teacher was so disorganized that he never updated his online calendar and there was usually only a few kids that would actually catch the assignment in class and they would text it to the others.