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Ancient Literature, Pretend, Non-Fiction & Imaginary Things - how to digest it all???


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Dear WTM,

 

I'm writing to you, the WTM users, as I just don't know who to ask locally, a friend, co-op friends etc. and am simply seeking feedback if others have dealt with this, what journey or path you chose, how you explain this to your kids, etc.

 

The topic is the study of imaginary, pretend and otherwise fictional things.

 

I was raised in a legalistic charismatic church. All things termed evil included Halloween, fairies, dragons, and the like, we weren't to really be a part of. As such growing up, I had a narrow view of learning to only be fact based, such as math, reading, grammar and to some degree, science (the evolution part was excluded do to what God's word said) and what the Bible said was what it meant. Further though, I didn't feel the need or desire to explore the fictional kind of content and really was content not knowing as I had a long standing history of having a very tender heart and spirit and anything scary really disturbed me, so its aversion was quite natural to me all the way around as a person. 

 

It wasn't until upper middle and high school did I begin to be exposed to old literature of the Greeks, etc and in high school with mid-evil times did I begin to actually read topics of this content in my required studies. I had to study literature in college, but like the schooling before, much of it eluded me. 

 

Now as a homeschooling parent, I am seeing more and more the importance of literature and recognize that I'm going to be giving my children a dis-service if I limit their reading to non-fiction and less deep kind of fiction. We have far exited the baby and toddler books and now into early storybooks. But, deep literature feels like Greek to me, so foreign. So incomprehensible. I don't know where to begin. We've done BFIAR in the first few PreK/K years repeating it as they liked the stories and now in 1st grade we are doing FIAR along with All about Me studies, STEM studies and seasons studies, etc (we don't do the same type unit week to week). Even FIAR, I'm not feeling like I'm divulging the most out of these lessons because simply this, literature and conveying its deepest underlying messages can elude me. It's kind of like heres the plane, the inventor, this is what inspiried him to do it, this is the meaning of the story....But after these...what's next?? I've explored using Tapestry of Grace, but it is filled with literature that I just don't know about, or very little basis of understanding.

 

As a parent, I also struggle with my daughter who is expressing a growing liking to when she hears things about Frozen from friends or ads. She enjoys books moreso than my son. I can see that she has some desire to understand writings.  My son is starting to see bits of super heros and friends with Captain America, Super Man (the good guys) and I think he too in his own way is trying to comprehend who these characters are.

 

But for me, I struggle. I struggle in my heart. In my spirit - it stirs with an uncomfortable spirit that makes me uneasy and unnaturally defensive. I struggle with some of the Thomas the Train videos because of the whole villian and the good guy scenario seems just too intense and even the Veggie Tales video "The Incredible Vegetables" (super hero based) my husband too thinks its a bit much for our 5 and 7 year olds. 

 

 

I hate Disney. Hate is a strong word and don't use that word often. I think it's over tones and the enterprise it has become is directing our society more than people want to give credit for. (IE: when national news anchors look like they came off a Disney on Ice set or could be at Disney World hugging kids, I really have a hard time taking them seriously.) I did see quite a number of Disney movies growing up because they were deemed a safe cartoon company, but over the years, their subject matter has gotten progressively progressive and I find it disturbing.

 

I struggle because as a woman, I don't get into greek, mid-evil, 'good goth' etc and have no clue how to teach it, but even more, I don't want to teach it. It's a different uncomfortable than the uncomfortable feelings I will have when I have to teach sex-ed or gross biology or something. It's uncomfortable because it's not who I am as a person. But yet as a teacher and parent in a society of history lovers and the growing demand of good guy / bad guy media, comics, stories, etc I know I'm having growing pains of my own to know how to digest it all and be able to process it --- like a momma bird gets the berries and pre-digests it for her young. For me, I'd just as soon as not even eat the berries and chose the worms instead.

 

So, you may can see why I feel like I am a mess when it comes to parenting and educating in this specific arena. I am literally struggling in my spirit, both as a parent and a homeschooling teacher, on how to approach teaching this content, beginning to explore super hero's, good guys, bad guys, etc. and help my kids have a healthy Christian based balance in this approach to studying literature, movies, comics, etc and understand why it is okay to study it even though 'it's not of God.'

 

I welcome your candid honest feedback. 

 

Sincerely,

Sherra

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((Sherra))

 

I saw your post this morning. I want to respond and try to help you out, but my own background and ideas are so different I'm not sure how much help I can give.

 

First, you clearly identify as a Christian, but just how close your beliefs are now to the way you were raised is not clear. What I'm understanding from your post is that you see that your children need to experience the world of literature and "pretend", but that world still troubles you because of your upbringing. So, essentially, your logical mind sees the need, but you're still uncomfortable. Have I understood correctly?

 

As I said, my background is different, and you may feel I am not the right person to help you. I was raised in a mainstream Protestant church and educated in parochial schools. I suppose I identify more as an agnostic now than anything else. But...

 

Growing up, as a Christian child in Christian schools, I experienced literature as perhaps the greatest joy of my life. No one ever, thank goodness, suggested that pretend things were bad.

 

I think my elementary teachers in a church school would have pointed to the parables as an example of stories told with a purpose. But other sorts of stories are fine too. The God I was taught to know was a loving and ultimately joyful God. Just as exploring his creation was a joyful and worshipful experience, so also exploring the talents he gave us, from mechanical talents to intellectual talents to artistic talents *including the writing of fiction*, was a joyful and worshipful experience. In fact, isn't using our talents well considered a responsibility? Reading, writing, thinking, all are ways of using these gifts.

 

Fiction can be uncomfortable in many ways and for many reasons, but that doesn't make it bad or dangerous.

 

I would suggest that if stories like "Thomas the Tank Engine" seem too intense, perhaps you are still struggling with the fact that the world does include bad things. My knowledge of the sort of religious background you've described is limited, so forgive me if I'm misunderstanding. Did your church suggest that by following a careful path through life you could avoid bad things?

 

I don't believe any of us, however devout, however careful, can avoid normal or sometimes even extraordinarily awful things happening in our lives. Things happen. In Christian terms, original sin exists.

 

One function of stories is to talk about the fact that awful things do happen. We can't always control them. We can control our own responses to them. One normal part of childhood is learning all this, and stories can help.

 

Fairy tales have functioned in this way for centuries, probably millennia. Yes, they involve witches and magic, but I wouldn't worry about that or take them too seriously. They are devices in the story, a means to an end, which is to help children (and adults) learn that bad things happen but people are resilient. Fairy tales, and witches, and magic can also be a lot of fun, and make for a rollicking good story. I think the God I was taught to know appreciates fun, and humor, and laughter, and shivers of apprehension which give way to a satisfying conclusion. I do not believe He is threatened by a fairy-tale witch.

 

If you were denied the chance to experience all this as a child, I'm not surprised that fiction worries you. Do you have a minister now who sees the world in a different way from that in which you were raised? Would it help to talk over the whole matter with him or her? I would also suggest counselling, with a qualified counsellor, if you are open to that. So much anxiety over stories suggests that you haven't yet come to terms with many things which are ordinarily part of the growing-up process. Your childhood church harmed you in this way. I have great respect for the fact that in spite of your discomfort you are trying to do better for your children. Counselling for you can help you "catch up" on this emotional development you may have missed.

 

When you feel ready to read some more fiction, perhaps talking it over with someone you trust would help.

 

I would suggest, instead of Disney and superheroes, read fairy tales in their original versions. Read Grimm and Hans Christian Anderson. Read Uncle Remus, Anansi, and trickster tales. Read tall tales and folk tales. If you're going to expose your children to literature, give them the good stuff, not commercialized, watered-down versions (although those are far better than nothing). Talk about all these with your trusted advisor, and see if you can figure out what the value of each story is. Realize that they may make you anxious, and try to figure out why. Remember we gain strength by confronting bad things in stories, where they can't really hurt us, before we have to confront them in earnest. And remember that it's also valuable to read just for fun and laughter.

 

Before you read any of these, though, read C. S. Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia, all seven books, all the way through. See if that example of a devout Christian who found great value in stories helps you relax and find joy in them also.

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Some children really love facts and the concrete.  A friend of mine has a son like that, who was shocked to discover that another boy "made up" his own super-heroes!  The idea that someone could just go beyond what had been laid out was completely novel to his way of thinking.  If you had a similar temperament, and with that up-bringing, I can see why you are at sea now.

 

One thing that springs to my mind is to say there is a school of thought that says that poetry (literature) is actually more true in many cases, than history (facts.)  The key here is it is not really the bare facts that are the most revealing - it is the meaning behind them.  But when we read history, or science, that hasn't already been interpreted for us, we could have reams and reams of information put before us before we begin to see the patters and principles behind them.  Learning how to do this is worthwhile and some people will dedicate their lives to it.

 

But the role of the talented poet is to take these insights, and condense them into a compelling art form.  When we read a poem or novel that really sings to our souls, it is because there is something there we recognize, and indeed see more clearly than we did before.  We might read one story about a king and say to ourselves - yes, that is what happens with power, another about family obligations and say "yes, that is the problem I have been faces with in my life, and the potential tragedy."  Sometimes it may just be recognition "those are the same kinds of feelings and struggles I had as a young adult, they do have a universal quality that goes beyond just myself."

 

Literature can accomplish these things, in many cases, in a much more powerful way than other forms of non-fiction. 

 

My advice to you might be to start out finding some good quality fiction books for your children, and then some for your own private reading.  It takes time to get used to the method of story telling, so I would just start by finding books that you enjoy.  It would likely be best to begin with 20th century things where language won't be a challenge in itself, maybe a poetry anthology or some of the classic novels. 

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:grouphug:

 

Some of the points I see in your post:

*Your childhood church taught that education ought to be strictly "fact-based", with the Bible as the supreme judge of factual truth.

*Your childhood church understood the Bible as a divine repository of divine facts, to be interpreted in a literal, scientific manner.

*Your childhood church believed that truth is strictly a matter of being factually accurate with respect to reality, and so literature, not being factually accurate, could teach nothing of the truth.

 

Your childhood church denied the *reality* of truth beyond literal, factual truth and so rejected everything beyond literal, factual truth as false - irrelevant at best and lies at worse - and so being educated under those beliefs naturally left you with no *ability* to comprehend truth beyond literal, factual truth :grouphug:, as well as no interest in trying.

 

Also, in addition to that, you have a visceral hatred of Disney.  (I sympathize - when we went to Disney it felt rather like going on a pilgrimage to a secular holy site - in the promo videos, Walt Disney even described his goals for his work in secular-but-religious terms.  And it's probably a sign that you have *some* ability to discern moral truth in stories - it's a foundation to build upon :thumbup:.  However, I disagree that Disney movies were ever *not* progressive - it's just that until recently, progressive secular morality upheld most of the same outcomes as traditional Christian morality - the *results* of the morality looked the same, but the *morality* itself was vastly different.  Stories embody morality - and when people see truth only in terms of literal fact, they completely miss the moral foundations of a story - because they miss the moral dimension of truth itself without even realizing it.  Which probably contributed to how your church managed to entirely miss the fact that *all* of the Disney movies embody a morality that is at odds with their faith.)

 

Also, you sound very sensitive to conflict and so have problems with the basic "good vs evil" plot of most stories.  Do you have difficulty with conflict in general?  Or just in the context of stories? 

 

For a long time, the good-vs-evil plot was a staple of particularly *Christian* storytelling - it embodied the Biblical conflict between God and Satan that is at the root of Christian conceptions of reality.  But as I understand it, "literal fact is the only truth" Christian churches have lost the old Christian view of reality, so maybe they've lost the ability to understand traditional Christian stories.  (I've spent the past 18 months trying to recover an understanding of the old Christian view of reality, and the old stories are an important link to it.)  Christian morality tales are supposed to have changed in the past 200 years - became more real-world, sentimental examples of good moral behavior (in line with truth being real-world fact only) instead of embodying the grand moral, spiritual combat between God and Satan.  That change both reflects and reinforces the new view of truth, making the old view unintelligible.

 

Anyway, so I'm hearing that you would like a Christian foundation for understanding fiction and fantasy.  A pp's rec of C.S. Lewis is a good one - his stories are purposeful embodiments of Christian truth.  Not only that, but his non-fiction is fighting to re-establish the old Christian idea of reality over against the modern notions (and your childhood church was just as steeped in modern ideas of truth as the evolutionary science it rejected).  Reading the old stories from Christendom - fairy tales and such - looking to see how the stories' notions of the nature of good and the nature of evil - and how good overcomes evil - corresponds (or differs) from Biblical teaching  - can help teach you how to see the moral dimension of truth that stories embody.  The Circe Institute - classical Christian education from a sacramental Christian viewpoint - focuses heavily on the moral nature of stories, and teaching people who don't understand that how to teach it: https://www.circeinstitute.org/- they have lots of resources, and there have been lots of discussions here about it.

 

I will give a note of caution - stories embody morality.  But they don't all embody the *same* morality.  There are lots of different moralities out there, and there are stories embodying each of them.  If you are trying to learn how to see moral truth embodied in a story, it helps *greatly* to have a basic understanding of the morality embodied in a given story *before* you read it.  That way you know what you are looking for, instead of blindly trying to spot *your* beliefs in a story that is trying to embody quite different beliefs.   Saving Leonardo: A Call to Resist the Secular Assault on Mind, Morals, and Meaning, by Nancy Pearcey (coming from a neo-Calvinist viewpoint), gives an *excellent* and readable overview of the moral beliefs underlying most of the major artistic movements in the past three centuries, and shows how those beliefs are depicted in the artistic works.  It's probably the best popular-level work on the topic I've ever seen - I highly, highly recommend it. 

 

And when it comes to reading mythology, it would help to learn the basics about that culture's morality first - then you can better spot how it is embodied in the story.  I'd start either by reading stories from Christendom - that you'd basically agree with - or stories from *vastly* different cultures, where your inherent disagreements are obvious and easy to see.  It's messy to try to tease out familiar-but-contradictory beliefs, separate them from what you believe, especially when you aren't very practiced at seeing moral truth in stories - too easy to assume it's "just like you" and accept the whole, even when there are some subtle-but-important differences. 

 

ETA:  In fact, I think I'd start in that order: old stories from your tradition to learn how to see, in story form, the moral truth you already know and believe, and then stories from old, vastly different cultures, to introduce the idea that not all stories embody the *same* moral truth, starting with very different moral truth to make the differences in story form fairly easy to spot.  (For example, I've noticed that trickster tales from outside of Christendom usually embody a very different set of favorable traits than the traditional Christian virtues, and it's very easy to spot.  In general fairy tales and myths tend to make the moral truth embodied in them fairly explicit.  The problem comes in more when generic you tries to interpret them within your own moral framework - because morality tales ought to be *moral* - instead of acknowledging that it's operating within a different moral code.)

 

Does any of that help? :grouphug:

Edited by forty-two
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I suspect this internal struggle you're experiencing has to more to do with working out issues related to your upbringing than about literature itself.  At my church we have a couple of people raised in legalism/patriarchy/authoritarian backgrounds who are having a hard time thriving as adults because of the teachings and lifestyle they were immersed in and their long difficult process of rejecting most of it as adults. There are underlying issues of anger with their parents and the churches they grew up in.  There are are feelings of overwhelm now that they have to decide things for themselves without having been raised in a culture of learning to think and discern independently more and more as they grow up.  They have such a distorted sense of normal they have little self confidence.  It's probably a type of arrested development.  They've been taught to lead with their emotions (fear of the wrath of God) rather than being taught to discern things using thought and reason for themselves with Scripture as a guidelines, not a blueprint.  Maybe these kinds of things should be more your primary focus than the story telling part.  I suspect they affect a far larger portion of your life than just the literature angle.

 

Just curious, but do you think other professing Christians out there are sinning against God by reading literature and studying the underlying themes?  If not, why not?  Thinking about it apart from your feelings by focusing on the issue at large rather than how the issue makes you feel personally is the better approach. One commonly held criticism of charismatic Christianity is that much of it is heavily emotion based.  Granted not everyone who takes issue with charismatic doctrines believes all charismatic Christians only make decisions out of emotion or impulse, but your post mentions emotions and feelings more than the norm around here so it seems worth considering in your situation.  In other words, it's time to stop feeling about it and time to start thinking about it.  It's time to put your feelings in the background, not the foreground.

Also, here's a link to a recent discussion about mythology that addresses some of the related issues:http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/586969-concerned-about-paganism-and-teaching-young-children-mythology/
 

Edited by Homeschool Mom in AZ
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Sherra,

 

I think you're so brave to choose a literature-based curriculum in this situation. What more can we ask of ourselves as parents than to give our children the best we have? You're doing fine.

 

In early elementary, fiction is often understood as simply the story itself. A program like FIAR helps you teach other subjects in a fun way that relates to the book, but the actual teaching of literary analysis can wait. Many of us don't do serious literature analysis until much later, so you have a long time to work on this. Don't worry!

 

If you'd like to do some reading for yourself, I agree with other posters who suggest Narnia - use a literature guide if you'd like. I'd also suggest some research about how to read literature: Deconstructing Penguins, Teaching the Classics, even The Read-Aloud Handbook. See if it resonates with you. And if you still don't feel confident teaching literature to your kids in a few years, outsource.

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--- THANK YOU INNISFREE for your reply!! I've replied to some questions or clarifications, etc

you seemed to want to know about in your thread in bold. -Sherra ---

 

((Sherra))

 

I saw your post this morning. I want to respond and try to help you out, but my own background and ideas are so different I'm not sure how much help I can give.

 

--- thank you for taking the time to reply despite our differences! ---

 

First, you clearly identify as a Christian, but just how close your beliefs are now to the way you were raised is not clear. What I'm understanding from your post is that you see that your children need to experience the world of literature and "pretend", but that world still troubles you because of your upbringing. So, essentially, your logical mind sees the need, but you're still uncomfortable. Have I understood correctly?

 

--- while my beliefs have shifted, evolved and in some ways changed, other matters that are so deeply grounded in me, especially those taught to me as a young child, still seem to have the most impact on not changing or not as easily swayed. Yes, you have understood correctly. ---

As I said, my background is different, and you may feel I am not the right person to help you. I was raised in a mainstream Protestant church and educated in parochial schools. I suppose I identify more as an agnostic now than anything else. But...

 

--- I too grew up and am still Protestant, though now a more liberal one (I've been the first I mentioned, then Southern Baptist and now UMC. So my religious input I hear from the pulpit has changed, but my upbringing is still pretty engrained and that doesn't bother me as I love and respect my parents, but I am struggling in this area and I am glad I recognized it and thankful for all who are helping me through this to help me understand. ---

 

Growing up, as a Christian child in Christian schools, I experienced literature as perhaps the greatest joy of my life. No one ever, thank goodness, suggested that pretend things were bad.

 

I think my elementary teachers in a church school would have pointed to the parables as an example of stories told with a purpose. But other sorts of stories are fine too. The God I was taught to know was a loving and ultimately joyful God. Just as exploring his creation was a joyful and worshipful experience, so also exploring the talents he gave us, from mechanical talents to intellectual talents to artistic talents *including the writing of fiction*, was a joyful and worshipful experience. In fact, isn't using our talents well considered a responsibility? Reading, writing, thinking, all are ways of using these gifts.

 

--- I am impressed with this interpretation of the fruit of the spirit. Quite notable! ---

Fiction can be uncomfortable in many ways and for many reasons, but that doesn't make it bad or dangerous.

 

I would suggest that if stories like "Thomas the Tank Engine" seem too intense, perhaps you are still struggling with the fact that the world does include bad things. My knowledge of the sort of religious background you've described is limited, so forgive me if I'm misunderstanding. Did your church suggest that by following a careful path through life you could avoid bad things?

 

--- Yes, you seem to hit a nerve there with me - In a good way! The world does include bad things. I have trouble digesting them. When I see / read / hear of all happening to Christians overseas I struggle - my heart is overwhelmed and I have to change my thoughts or it can trouble me for a couple hours to a few days. ---

 

--- I grew up in a small southern pentecostal church that I love dearly, but through a series of events I am no longer with that church. however, that church has evolved too, to be somewhat more progressive than it had been, as I still have family in it, I am aware to a degree of those changes. You seem to be right on target with your response... 

 

--- Not exactly like you'd avoid them, but it was how life worked best was to not dwell on such things that were evil or of the devil and focus on the wholeness of God, His blessings, helping others, etc. and avoid temptation and "backsliding"  ---

 

I don't believe any of us, however devout, however careful, can avoid normal or sometimes even extraordinarily awful things happening in our lives. Things happen. In Christian terms, original sin exists.

 

--- Yes, I agree bad stuff can happen to all. ---

 

One function of stories is to talk about the fact that awful things do happen. We can't always control them. We can control our own responses to them. One normal part of childhood is learning all this, and stories can help.

 

Fairy tales have functioned in this way for centuries, probably millennia. Yes, they involve witches and magic, but I wouldn't worry about that or take them too seriously. They are devices in the story, a means to an end, which is to help children (and adults) learn that bad things happen but people are resilient. Fairy tales, and witches, and magic can also be a lot of fun, and make for a rollicking good story. I think the God I was taught to know appreciates fun, and humor, and laughter, and shivers of apprehension which give way to a satisfying conclusion. I do not believe He is threatened by a fairy-tale witch.

 

--- Thank you for your response. I appreciate this perspective! ----

 

If you were denied the chance to experience all this as a child, I'm not surprised that fiction worries you. Do you have a minister now who sees the world in a different way from that in which you were raised? Would it help to talk over the whole matter with him or her? I would also suggest counselling, with a qualified counsellor, if you are open to that. So much anxiety over stories suggests that you haven't yet come to terms with many things which are ordinarily part of the growing-up process. Your childhood church harmed you in this way. I have great respect for the fact that in spite of your discomfort you are trying to do better for your children. Counselling for you can help you "catch up" on this emotional development you may have missed.

 

--- Yes, I have a minister friend who may be able to help me. I hadn't thought about asking someone in that position. His wife is also a former High School Literature teacher so he'd probably be ideal. ---

 

When you feel ready to read some more fiction, perhaps talking it over with someone you trust would help.  --- okay. will do ---

I would suggest, instead of Disney and superheroes, read fairy tales in their original versions. Read Grimm and Hans Christian Anderson. Read Uncle Remus, Anansi, and trickster tales. Read tall tales and folk tales. If you're going to expose your children to literature, give them the good stuff, not commercialized, watered-down versions (although those are far better than nothing). Talk about all these with your trusted advisor, and see if you can figure out what the value of each story is. Realize that they may make you anxious, and try to figure out why. Remember we gain strength by confronting bad things in stories, where they can't really hurt us, before we have to confront them in earnest. And remember that it's also valuable to read just for fun and laughter.

 

--- That's good to know to go to the original stuff. ---

Before you read any of these, though, read C. S. Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia, all seven books, all the way through. See if that example of a devout Christian who found great value in stories helps you relax and find joy in them also.

 

--- Thank you again for all of your time and your reply. You have prompted me on some next steps to consider following soon. I thank you so much! ---

 

Edited by HSsquared
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Some children really love facts and the concrete.  A friend of mine has a son like that, who was shocked to discover that another boy "made up" his own super-heroes!  The idea that someone could just go beyond what had been laid out was completely novel to his way of thinking.  If you had a similar temperament, and with that up-bringing, I can see why you are at sea now.

 

One thing that springs to my mind is to say there is a school of thought that says that poetry (literature) is actually more true in many cases, than history (facts.)  The key here is it is not really the bare facts that are the most revealing - it is the meaning behind them.  But when we read history, or science, that hasn't already been interpreted for us, we could have reams and reams of information put before us before we begin to see the patters and principles behind them.  Learning how to do this is worthwhile and some people will dedicate their lives to it.

 

But the role of the talented poet is to take these insights, and condense them into a compelling art form.  When we read a poem or novel that really sings to our souls, it is because there is something there we recognize, and indeed see more clearly than we did before.  We might read one story about a king and say to ourselves - yes, that is what happens with power, another about family obligations and say "yes, that is the problem I have been faces with in my life, and the potential tragedy."  Sometimes it may just be recognition "those are the same kinds of feelings and struggles I had as a young adult, they do have a universal quality that goes beyond just myself."

 

Literature can accomplish these things, in many cases, in a much more powerful way than other forms of non-fiction. 

 

My advice to you might be to start out finding some good quality fiction books for your children, and then some for your own private reading.  It takes time to get used to the method of story telling, so I would just start by finding books that you enjoy.  It would likely be best to begin with 20th century things where language won't be a challenge in itself, maybe a poetry anthology or some of the classic novels. 

 Well said Bluegoat, I'm out to sea for sure! I appreciate your reply as well as your recommendations! Thank you for the perspective of how reading such fictional books, poetry, etc can positively impact your life, not just be an entertainment for the mind. Thank you!!! That is a turning point for me worth noting in understanding writings such as these!

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One thing I remind my children of we we get to "the scary part" of stories and books is that this story is the kind of story where the good guys win in the end, but things might get worse before they get better, just like in real life. We believe that the "good guys" are going to win in the end in real life, too, because God works all things for the good of those who love him and are called according to his purpose. I point out when the "happy ending" is different from what the main character expected and explain that that happens in our lives to, that the good thing God wants for us is not always the same thing as the good thing we want.

My kids are very young, basically at that Thomas the Tank Engine stage. I expect the conversations will have more nuance as they get older. 

My recommendation would be to read a lot of the books that your kids aren't quite ready for yet so that you get comfortable with them before you need to be comfortable introducing them to your kids. There may be some you set aside because you aren't comfortable having your kids read them any time soon, but I think that's okay. there are so many great books that if your kids don't read certain ones as kids, they can still have a rich life and maybe choose to read them as teens or adults.

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Sherra, welcome to the forum! I look forward to getting to know you.

 

I have spent time in churches like yours and I do not see their ways of rearing children inferior to more mainstream ways. I think there are very valid reasons for the choices made by those churches.

 

I missed most Disney while growing up because I was outside the USA or too poor to participate in mainstream USA, but sometimes I missed it due to church teachings.

 

My boys saw some Disney, but I had a bad habit of taping fuzz over the parts I hated the most. They just thought the VCR was malfunctioning. :lol:

 

While raising my boys, I was in and out of different types of churches. And they were influenced just as strongly, if not more, by their dad's family and a few years spent in PS.

 

My oldest bristled under my restrictions as a child and always professed to be an athiest. But as an adult--he is 29--married a Christian and does nothing but express gratitude for the conservative Christian teachings and restrictions he was exposed to.

 

I am no longer a Christian, but I have deep respect for all faiths and even total rejection of any faith, when people choose that route. Faiths are like languages to me. Just attmepts by humans to describe what is beyond our understanding. They are each useful and beautiful in their own way.

 

Your faith is your faith! It is YOU. And HOMEschool is an extension of your HOME. Be you. Do you. You is awesome.

 

My oldest wanted to read a Dickens book for "school" at one point, but I had a lot of what I thought was "better" scheduled. Real things, Useful things. What at the time I wanted to cover. I remember him trying to turn his dad's family and neighbors against me to intimidate me into relenting. I put a stop to that quickly, but told him to write me a persuasive essay to persuade me to understand his point. The essay wasn't very good; I wasn't impressed.

 

Then I told him that he was wasting an awful lot of his own time trying to get the book scheduled as "school" and if the book that was THAT good why didn't he just read it on his own time. And that is what he did. :lol:

 

He went on to study literature at the local community college. I very specifically remember him talking about watching a film of one of the famous depression era novels, and how the entire class didn't know what the depression was. He said he and the teacher taught them, but were unable to teach them what poverty was. He said they could not comprehend poverty and he talked a lot about that. That has always stuck with me.

 

I'm kind of rambling here. But Sherra, I don't think we are always supposed to struggle so hard out of our comfort zone. I don't always think we are supposed to move from our current subculture into another. I think often we are doing pretty darn well right where we are and have every right to rear our children in our current culture and with what we know best.

 

Again welcome to the forum! :)

Edited by Hunter
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I only have a cell phone to post so I post kind of choppy. Sorry.

 

But the main reason I use so much fiction, now, is that it is free. :lol:

 

And I grew up hiding away in corners reading whatever I could scrounge, sometimes from dumpster diving. I read a lot of the books that are now free pubic domain books. My boys didn't read a lot of these books, but I did.

 

As a child, my younger son spent an hour or more a day lying on the floor listening to dramatized KJV on audio tape while he colored Bible story coloring pages. At 15 he discovered Shakespeare and loved it. Also Dryden's translations of Greek and Latin books. The KJV seemed to have prepared him to read these books as easily as a modern novel. I can't say for sure as I didn't understand them well enough myself to be sure. Less fiction, not more, seemed to have better prepared him for the Great Books at least, than my own more extensive novel reading and public school literature classes.

 

I'm still rambling. I'm kind of just vomitting onto the screen. It has been a tough past couple says and my thoughts are not as organized as I wish they were.

 

I really wanted to post something, though.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Dear fourty-two,

 

Thank you for your thoughtful reply to my post. I appreciate it. In parts, you hit the nail on the head.... follow my replies in bold in your quote below...

 

:grouphug:

 

Some of the points I see in your post:

*Your childhood church taught that education ought to be strictly "fact-based", with the Bible as the supreme judge of factual truth.

*Your childhood church understood the Bible as a divine repository of divine facts, to be interpreted in a literal, scientific manner.

*Your childhood church believed that truth is strictly a matter of being factually accurate with respect to reality, and so literature, not being factually accurate, could teach nothing of the truth.

 

I can't say they taught education as strictly "fact-based," though I can't say it wasn't either. It is moreso that in respect to growing your knowledge, it grew in the word, "Truth," and you needed the basic education for living and college was encouraged too, but I think it moreso was a struggle in so many areas that if it wasn't in the Bible, it wasn't addressed or taught at all. . . . that's a whole other topic . . . but moreso, anything evil was condemned, and we were to walk in the light (avoiding darkness). So it's Truth as in God's word. 

 

Your childhood church denied the *reality* of truth beyond literal, factual truth and so rejected everything beyond literal, factual truth as false - irrelevant at best and lies at worse - and so being educated under those beliefs naturally left you with no *ability* to comprehend truth beyond literal, factual truth :grouphug:, as well as no interest in trying.

Some was termed irrelevant and some lies. And so yes, you hit the nail on the head there: "no interest in trying" because I felt it irrelevant or in some cases not appropriate to learn.

 

Also, in addition to that, you have a visceral hatred of Disney.  (I sympathize - when we went to Disney it felt rather like going on a pilgrimage to a secular holy site - in the promo videos, Walt Disney even described his goals for his work in secular-but-religious terms.  And it's probably a sign that you have *some* ability to discern moral truth in stories - it's a foundation to build upon :thumbup:.  However, I disagree that Disney movies were ever *not* progressive - it's just that until recently, progressive secular morality upheld most of the same outcomes as traditional Christian morality - the *results* of the morality looked the same, but the *morality* itself was vastly different.  Stories embody morality - and when people see truth only in terms of literal fact, they completely miss the moral foundations of a story - because they miss the moral dimension of truth itself without even realizing it.  Which probably contributed to how your church managed to entirely miss the fact that *all* of the Disney movies embody a morality that is at odds with their faith.)

 

I feel like I can tell moral truths, but I have been told numerous times in my life from a teen to in the last several years that I'm too trusting of people, of course I like to try to extend grace first to others and build from there (unless I felt like I was in a vulnerable position). So, anyway, perspective.

 

Also, you sound very sensitive to conflict and so have problems with the basic "good vs evil" plot of most stories.  Do you have difficulty with conflict in general?  Or just in the context of stories? 

 

I have always longed for conflict resolution. I long for peaceable relationships with others and others between each other. If people are needing aid, I want to help and lend an ear, and do what I can. I've never handled long-term strife well. I think it's my personal spirit longing for peace and harmony. So yes, I'd say I am sensitive to it, but I try to be pro-active in recognizing the bottom line issue to help support its resolution. In stories, I think I may struggle because the author as written the entire novel. I can't change excerpts and alter the hatred tone of the bad guy in the story. I can't walk away from the story just because of this. I'm in the novel. I want the good guy to overcome the evil and so on, but the journey for me is arduous and tedious, probably because I'm not getting all the moral nuances and probably because I don't like long term conflict. 

 

For a long time, the good-vs-evil plot was a staple of particularly *Christian* storytelling - it embodied the Biblical conflict between God and Satan that is at the root of Christian conceptions of reality.  But as I understand it, "literal fact is the only truth" Christian churches have lost the old Christian view of reality, so maybe they've lost the ability to understand traditional Christian stories.  (I've spent the past 18 months trying to recover an understanding of the old Christian view of reality, and the old stories are an important link to it.)  Christian morality tales are supposed to have changed in the past 200 years - became more real-world, sentimental examples of good moral behavior (in line with truth being real-world fact only) instead of embodying the grand moral, spiritual combat between God and Satan.  That change both reflects and reinforces the new view of truth, making the old view unintelligible.

 

I wish you could elaborate on this previous paragraph more. Have you started a thread on WTM forum on this already?? I'd like to understand more about this that you're saying.

 

Anyway, so I'm hearing that you would like a Christian foundation for understanding fiction and fantasy.  A pp's rec of C.S. Lewis is a good one - his stories are purposeful embodiments of Christian truth.  Not only that, but his non-fiction is fighting to re-establish the old Christian idea of reality over against the modern notions (and your childhood church was just as steeped in modern ideas of truth as the evolutionary science it rejected).  Reading the old stories from Christendom - fairy tales and such - looking to see how the stories' notions of the nature of good and the nature of evil - and how good overcomes evil - corresponds (or differs) from Biblical teaching  - can help teach you how to see the moral dimension of truth that stories embody.  The Circe Institute - classical Christian education from a sacramental Christian viewpoint - focuses heavily on the moral nature of stories, and teaching people who don't understand that how to teach it: https://www.circeinstitute.org/- they have lots of resources, and there have been lots of discussions here about it.

 

Thank you for that resource. I will venture over to it and see what I can gain there too.

 

I will give a note of caution - stories embody morality.  But they don't all embody the *same* morality.  There are lots of different moralities out there, and there are stories embodying each of them.  If you are trying to learn how to see moral truth embodied in a story, it helps *greatly* to have a basic understanding of the morality embodied in a given story *before* you read it.  That way you know what you are looking for, instead of blindly trying to spot *your* beliefs in a story that is trying to embody quite different beliefs.   Saving Leonardo: A Call to Resist the Secular Assault on Mind, Morals, and Meaning, by Nancy Pearcey (coming from a neo-Calvinist viewpoint), gives an *excellent* and readable overview of the moral beliefs underlying most of the major artistic movements in the past three centuries, and shows how those beliefs are depicted in the artistic works.  It's probably the best popular-level work on the topic I've ever seen - I highly, highly recommend it. 

 

I appreciate this recommendation too!! Sounds on target for what I'm looking for. I definitely agree too with your statement "But they don't all embody the *same* morality." And, I would appreciate having a baseline to utilize too.

 

And when it comes to reading mythology, it would help to learn the basics about that culture's morality first - then you can better spot how it is embodied in the story.  I'd start either by reading stories from Christendom - that you'd basically agree with - or stories from *vastly* different cultures, where your inherent disagreements are obvious and easy to see.  It's messy to try to tease out familiar-but-contradictory beliefs, separate them from what you believe, especially when you aren't very practiced at seeing moral truth in stories - too easy to assume it's "just like you" and accept the whole, even when there are some subtle-but-important differences. 

 

ETA:  In fact, I think I'd start in that order: old stories from your tradition to learn how to see, in story form, the moral truth you already know and believe, and then stories from old, vastly different cultures, to introduce the idea that not all stories embody the *same* moral truth, starting with very different moral truth to make the differences in story form fairly easy to spot.  (For example, I've noticed that trickster tales from outside of Christendom usually embody a very different set of favorable traits than the traditional Christian virtues, and it's very easy to spot.  In general fairy tales and myths tend to make the moral truth embodied in them fairly explicit.  The problem comes in more when generic you tries to interpret them within your own moral framework - because morality tales ought to be *moral* - instead of acknowledging that it's operating within a different moral code.)

 

Does any of that help? :grouphug:

 

Oh fourty-two, you have helped greatly with your resources, references, understandings, etc. 

Thank you so much again! I appreciate your help and look forward to checking out these references. 
 

-PS - sorry for the delayed reply as me and the kids have been dealing with bronchitis and other health issues in the family. I do sincerely appreciate your time and support further in this journey!

 

Sherra
 

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Thank you Homeschool Mom in AZ for your comment on this post. I've replied to some questions and comments in your quote below. (BTW, I appreciate AZ as I have family in Tuscon and Pheonix and have traveled to Flagstaff. I long to visit there again sometime!)

I suspect this internal struggle you're experiencing has to more to do with working out issues related to your upbringing than about literature itself.  At my church we have a couple of people raised in legalism/patriarchy/authoritarian backgrounds who are having a hard time thriving as adults because of the teachings and lifestyle they were immersed in and their long difficult process of rejecting most of it as adults. There are underlying issues of anger with their parents and the churches they grew up in.  There are are feelings of overwhelm now that they have to decide things for themselves without having been raised in a culture of learning to think and discern independently more and more as they grow up.  They have such a distorted sense of normal they have little self confidence.  It's probably a type of arrested development.  They've been taught to lead with their emotions (fear of the wrath of God) rather than being taught to discern things using thought and reason for themselves with Scripture as a guidelines, not a blueprint.  Maybe these kinds of things should be more your primary focus than the story telling part.  I suspect they affect a far larger portion of your life than just the literature angle.

 

 While I hadn't thought of this that way, as "arrested development," I can't say that I'm having a hard time thriving and I say that in part because we are no longer in that church, but it is where I was born and raised in til I was 18. We then went on the Southern Baptist which broadened my focus some, but then after marrying, I joined my husbands small UMC and I have grown some there too. I think if I had just woke up one day and realized this all overnight, I would had been a basket case and angry  too, (I am frustrated and trying to figure this out-that's for sure) but unlike resolving conflict timely, change for me is a rather slow process. I do a lot of analyzing and studying options, etc. I do recognize I'm not the same gal I was when I graduated High School in 96. (yep...nearly 40 with a 5 and 7 year old :huh: ...I'm on the later end here of starting parenting....). Also, my husband is a progressive thinker. Even in the UMC, it is somewhat progressive, though our local church doesn't embody it fully, my husband has long said he's not going to walk in anywhere and be told what to think but to think about what's being said. Also, my Mother taught me from an early age to study the Bible and know it as others teach you to know that what is said is Biblically accurate. Her mother did mission work in Wisconsin and was studious as well, so while it was often said "this is the way it is....and so on" there were encouraging times to study, though I am no where near versed as I feel I should be to have been in church  nearly 40 years though either.   :closedeyes:

 

Just curious, but do you think other professing Christians out there are sinning against God by reading literature and studying the underlying themes?  If not, why not?  Thinking about it apart from your feelings by focusing on the issue at large rather than how the issue makes you feel personally is the better approach. One commonly held criticism of charismatic Christianity is that much of it is heavily emotion based.  Granted not everyone who takes issue with charismatic doctrines believes all charismatic Christians only make decisions out of emotion or impulse, but your post mentions emotions and feelings more than the norm around here so it seems worth considering in your situation.  In other words, it's time to stop feeling about it and time to start thinking about it.  It's time to put your feelings in the background, not the foreground.

 

No, I don't believe other professing Christians are sinning by reading literature and studying the underlying themes. God is all knowing, omnipotent. I think of us wanting to know God and while the Bible is important to learn from and the Holy Spirit's guiding importance too, I also think there are other writings out there that can build peoples faith. I think any opportunity for people to be able use literature to build their faith or for non-Christians to have a seed planted in the importance of good overcoming evil and grace being shown could be a wonderful tool, too. I know not all writing are edifying to God in that manner, but for those that do, that's good.

 

Your statement that starts... "One commonly held criticism of charismatic Christianity is that much of it is heavily emotion based..." man that's for sure. Or it sure was when I grew up in it. I am a sensitive person and I'm not one to like carry my emotions on a sleeve, but moreso I have an emotional bond with my faith. When I am wrong, my heart literally aches and I emotionally hate what I've done. Good to hear that perspective. I need to study that in my heart more. .  .  I'm literally doing some mental and emotional growing here in this thread . . . 

 

 
Also, here's a link to a recent discussion about mythology that addresses some of the related issues:http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/586969-concerned-about-paganism-and-teaching-young-children-mythology/
 

Thanks again for your post. You have helped me open my mind to new view and helping me digest all these thought processes and I thank you for your time! 

 

Sincerely,

Sherra

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May I suggest a book: Honey for a Child's Heart.

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0310242460/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1458515343&sr=8-1&pi=SY200_QL40&keywords=honey+for+a+child%27s+heart&dpPl=1&dpID=51VgDiY1bCL&ref=plSrch

 

The author is a Christian. The book is mainly a list of good stories to share with your children, but she also writes about the importance of reading fiction, why good stories are so important to a child's development, etc. I think it might give you some guidance. :)

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Sherra,

 

I think you're so brave to choose a literature-based curriculum in this situation. What more can we ask of ourselves as parents than to give our children the best we have? You're doing fine.

 

In early elementary, fiction is often understood as simply the story itself. A program like FIAR helps you teach other subjects in a fun way that relates to the book, but the actual teaching of literary analysis can wait. Many of us don't do serious literature analysis until much later, so you have a long time to work on this. Don't worry!

 

If you'd like to do some reading for yourself, I agree with other posters who suggest Narnia - use a literature guide if you'd like. I'd also suggest some research about how to read literature: Deconstructing Penguins, Teaching the Classics, even The Read-Aloud Handbook. See if it resonates with you. And if you still don't feel confident teaching literature to your kids in a few years, outsource.

 

Thank you so much basketcase for this cheerleading reply  :hurray: Good to know I don't have to figure it out immediately! 

 

Thank you also for the references - They are helpful!!! And good idea about outsourcing. Hopefully I won't, but just in case, good to know that's an option!

 

Sincerely,

Sherra

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Thank you xahm for your reply.

One thing I remind my children of we we get to "the scary part" of stories and books is that this story is the kind of story where the good guys win in the end, but things might get worse before they get better, just like in real life. We believe that the "good guys" are going to win in the end in real life, too, because God works all things for the good of those who love him and are called according to his purpose. I point out when the "happy ending" is different from what the main character expected and explain that that happens in our lives to, that the good thing God wants for us is not always the same thing as the good thing we want.

My kids are very young, basically at that Thomas the Tank Engine stage. I expect the conversations will have more nuance as they get older. 

My recommendation would be to read a lot of the books that your kids aren't quite ready for yet so that you get comfortable with them before you need to be comfortable introducing them to your kids. There may be some you set aside because you aren't comfortable having your kids read them any time soon, but I think that's okay. there are so many great books that if your kids don't read certain ones as kids, they can still have a rich life and maybe choose to read them as teens or adults.

I appreciate your perspective and an actual verbal cue / reminder, to help my kids get through stories that may be troubling in moments but remember the good will overcome. Thanks for the recommendation too to read ahead a bit too. Need to do that for curriculums too before. Thanks again! -Sherra

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Sherra, welcome to the forum! I look forward to getting to know you.

 

I have spent time in churches like yours and I do not see their ways of rearing children inferior to more mainstream ways. I think there are very valid reasons for the choices made by those churches.

 

I missed most Disney while growing up because I was outside the USA or too poor to participate in mainstream USA, but sometimes I missed it due to church teachings.

 

My boys saw some Disney, but I had a bad habit of taping fuzz over the parts I hated the most. They just thought the VCR was malfunctioning. :lol:

 

While raising my boys, I was in and out of different types of churches. And they were influenced just as strongly, if not more, by their dad's family and a few years spent in PS.

 

My oldest bristled under my restrictions as a child and always professed to be an athiest. But as an adult--he is 29--married a Christian and does nothing but express gratitude for the conservative Christian teachings and restrictions he was exposed to.

 

I am no longer a Christian, but I have deep respect for all faiths and even total rejection of any faith, when people choose that route. Faiths are like languages to me. Just attmepts by humans to describe what is beyond our understanding. They are each useful and beautiful in their own way.

 

Your faith is your faith! It is YOU. And HOMEschool is an extension of your HOME. Be you. Do you. You is awesome.

 

My oldest wanted to read a Dickens book for "school" at one point, but I had a lot of what I thought was "better" scheduled. Real things, Useful things. What at the time I wanted to cover. I remember him trying to turn his dad's family and neighbors against me to intimidate me into relenting. I put a stop to that quickly, but told him to write me a persuasive essay to persuade me to understand his point. The essay wasn't very good; I wasn't impressed.

 

Then I told him that he was wasting an awful lot of his own time trying to get the book scheduled as "school" and if the book that was THAT good why didn't he just read it on his own time. And that is what he did. :lol:

 

He went on to study literature at the local community college. I very specifically remember him talking about watching a film of one of the famous depression era novels, and how the entire class didn't know what the depression was. He said he and the teacher taught them, but were unable to teach them what poverty was. He said they could not comprehend poverty and he talked a lot about that. That has always stuck with me.

 

I'm kind of rambling here. But Sherra, I don't think we are always supposed to struggle so hard out of our comfort zone. I don't always think we are supposed to move from our current subculture into another. I think often we are doing pretty darn well right where we are and have every right to rear our children in our current culture and with what we know best.

 

Again welcome to the forum! :)

Thank you Hunter for your comments and for sharing excerpts of your journey and your family's as well. I too know of quite a number that have left legalistic churches / homes and struggle to find their faith. It has been a challenge for a few quite close to me. It is sad and hard and not easily mended. It is a definitely a long journey to find your true self again after being told this is the way it is for so long. 

 

In regard to the last paragraph, I am struggling to see outside my comfort zone and yes, I don't want to be struggling. I am best approaching it as a journey of introspect of self to build tools for teaching and raising my kids. But in reality it is requiring an adjustment of my mindset that I'm not sure that I'm ready to embrace. Gathering tools, like the ones in this post, is definitely helping me stretch my mind and build my mental muscle. But as in any race, you can't choose to run a race today and be ready tomorrow. It's a process. Thanks for your understanding in that regard.  :thumbup1:

 

Thanks again Hunter! Best wishes in your journey.

 

Sincerely,

Sherra

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I only have a cell phone to post so I post kind of choppy. Sorry.

 

But the main reason I use so much fiction, now, is that it is free. :lol:

 

And I grew up hiding away in corners reading whatever I could scrounge, sometimes from dumpster diving. I read a lot of the books that are now free pubic domain books. My boys didn't read a lot of these books, but I did.

 

As a child, my younger son spent an hour or more a day lying on the floor listening to dramatized KJV on audio tape while he colored Bible story coloring pages. At 15 he discovered Shakespeare and loved it. Also Dryden's translations of Greek and Latin books. The KJV seemed to have prepared him to read these books as easily as a modern novel. I can't say for sure as I didn't understand them well enough myself to be sure. Less fiction, not more, seemed to have better prepared him for the Great Books at least, than my own more extensive novel reading and public school literature classes.

 

I'm still rambling. I'm kind of just vomitting onto the screen. It has been a tough past couple says and my thoughts are not as organized as I wish they were.

 

I really wanted to post something, though.

Your replies were find Hunter. I hope you've had better days since your post :001_smile: (we've gotten over bronchitis etc and sorry for the delayed replies). Thank you for sharing!

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May I suggest a book: Honey for a Child's Heart.

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0310242460/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1458515343&sr=8-1&pi=SY200_QL40&keywords=honey+for+a+child%27s+heart&dpPl=1&dpID=51VgDiY1bCL&ref=plSrch

 

The author is a Christian. The book is mainly a list of good stories to share with your children, but she also writes about the importance of reading fiction, why good stories are so important to a child's development, etc. I think it might give you some guidance. :)

 

 

Thank you so much lovelearnandlive for your lead and your time! I appreciate adding another tool of knowledge!

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Dear fourty-two,

 

Thank you for your thoughtful reply to my post. I appreciate it. In parts, you hit the nail on the head.... follow my replies in bold in your quote below...

 

 

 

 

"For a long time, the good-vs-evil plot was a staple of particularly *Christian* storytelling - it embodied the Biblical conflict between God and Satan that is at the root of Christian conceptions of reality. But as I understand it, "literal fact is the only truth" Christian churches have lost the old Christian view of reality, so maybe they've lost the ability to understand traditional Christian stories. (I've spent the past 18 months trying to recover an understanding of the old Christian view of reality, and the old stories are an important link to it.) Christian morality tales are supposed to have changed in the past 200 years - became more real-world, sentimental examples of good moral behavior (in line with truth being real-world fact only) instead of embodying the grand moral, spiritual combat between God and Satan. That change both reflects and reinforces the new view of truth, making the old view unintelligible."

I wish you could elaborate on this previous paragraph more. Have you started a thread on WTM forum on this already?? I'd like to understand more about this that you're saying.

 

No thread here, but I've been writing about it elsewhere (it being the change in how the Western world views reality, and how that change has affected how Christians understand the Bible and theology), so I've even got charts and everything ;).

~*~

 

Temporal = our lives now

Eternal = the life to come

 

Physical = visible, material reality

Spiritual = invisible, immaterial reality

 

~*~

The fall of the Christian worldview and the rise of secularism, in chart form ;) (loosely based on Charles Taylor's analysis in A Secular Age).

 

 

Two big streams in medieval Catholicism (which I believe are a lot closer to reality than how we view things today):

25593445936_8a5768d9f8_o.jpg25526897441_1c3d40ff1d_o.jpg

Nominalism introduces a split between God's physical work in creation and God's spiritual purposes - God can use anything in nature to achieve anything He wants - there's no inherent moral/spiritual purposes in creation.

~*~

 

Two big Reformation streams - the Reformed introduce a split between the physical and the spiritual; the two are still intertwined, but are now distinct:

25650933736_a23967c2fa_o.jpg25558384812_15a390fc5f_o.jpg

I wasn't positive how the Reformed dealt with the revealed God/hidden God distinction, so I kept it as close to the "baseline" as possible - if they made more radical changes straight off, plz let me know.

 

~*~

 

Step one in draining the world of the divine - the split between the physical and spiritual now extends to separating them into distinct realms:

24985780954_34571ec5d4_o.jpg25947170925_643606b9d0_o.jpg

Though Christians resisted this at the time, this view of the universe became so dominant that almost all Christians ended up adopting it in spite of themselves and interpreted older doctrine (if they had pre-Enlightenment doctrine) in light of this new understanding. The First Great Awakening was a reaction against this view and the effects of this view - tried to combat the intellectual spiritual distance inherent in this view by practices designed to excite a heartfelt spiritual reaction to the physically-revealed intellectual truths of the faith. A common definition of the evangelical stream of Christianity is that evangelicals are Protestants who embrace the Great Awakening's understanding of faith as spiritually experiencing the intellectual truths of the Christian faith. (This lived sense of the faith is different from that of 1500; then there was no intellectual *or* experiential separation between knowing God's revelations and perceiving God's spiritual work in the first place.)

 

~*~

 

Step two in draining the world of the divine - the physical world can now be fully defined without needing to bring in God:

25852198461_a8d7cc66ed_o.jpg

The Second Great Awakening was a reaction to this further intellectual weakening of the spiritual, doubling down on the experiential spiritual side of faith to bring back a lived sense of the spiritual. But this is a very different kind of lived sense of the spiritual than existed at the beginning of the Reformation - one rooted in the Enlightenment's view of reality, instead of medieval Christendom's sense of reality.

 

~*~

 

After deism, moving to a strictly materialist view was pretty straightforward - just slough off the extraneous spiritual and eternal realms; atheism is now a live option:

25826372642_3d05d0f5bd_o.jpg

The liberal theological response to this was to bring back the spiritual realm, but to argue that spiritual truth, while true, was true in a different way than physical truth - it was subjectively true, but could never be proven objectively. Faith was trusting that this subjective truth was indeed *true*, even though it wasn't *factual*. The fundamentalist response was to double down on the inherently objective nature of spiritual truth and God's Word (in line with historic Christianity), and to maintain their insistence that God's physical revelation of eternal spiritual truth in His Word was as *factually* true as the temporal spiritual/moral truths found in God's Creation (in line with Enlightenment conceptions of reality and truth).

 

~*~

 

However, after two World Wars, the Enlightenment promise - that nature could tell us everything we needed to know in order to live a meaningful, moral life - seems pretty hollow to an increasing number of people, who gave up the idea that humanity could/would unite itself around a knowable objective morality embedded in nature:

24989558843_f84ea353de_o.jpg

The Christian response ranges from:

  • liberal Christians dropping objective natural morality in line with culture (progressive Christianity),
  • Enlightenment-rooted Christians doubling down on Enlightenment understandings of objective morality in their defence of Biblical morality (modern Christianity), and
  • Enlightenment-rejecting-but-objective-morality-upholding Christians contrasting spiritual-and-physical Biblical morality with the modern materialist physical-only morality that post-modernism is rejecting. Sometimes this latter involved rejecting the whole idea of natural law as inherently modern-and-unBiblical (post-modern Christianity), and sometimes it involved disentangling Christian natural law doctrine from Enlightenment-contaminated notions of natural law (pre-modern/post-secular Christianity).
Those who reject the entire notion of natural law in line with secular culture tend to be more ready to adapt Biblical teaching to secular culture's norms than are Enlightenment-rejecting-but-natural-law-following objective-morality Christians, who are upholding some sort of "traditional Christian morality" like the Enlightenment Christians, but for different reasons (and those different reasons can lead to differences in how they view "traditional Christian morality").

 

~*~

 

And as this disenchantment with the results of a morality-rooted-in-materialism worldview spread, a new option for a humanistic atheism arose, one that allows for a this-worldly spirituality (and can make common cause with people who hold to a otherworldly spirituality, so long as they keep it properly subjective):

25646567950_b244c50887_o.jpg

I believe that this postmodern humanism is increasingly becoming the dominant secular view, replacing the old materialistic humanism.

 

~*~

 

So that's addressing the change in views of reality part of the post (which is where my focus has been). But doesn't really touch on the various implications of those changes that I touched on. There's so many places to go, and idk what, particularly, you were interested in hearing more about, so I'll leave it here and if there's anything you'd like to hear more about, just let me know and I'll throw some words at it ;).

Edited by forty-two
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Wow fourty-two! This is more than 'thoughts' - this is intensive amazing sociological analysis. Sounds like the good workings of a doctoral dissertation! I'll save this as a resource for sure. I'll have to share this with my husband too - he's into sociological and people groups more than I.  I know he'd be impressed too! 

 

Bottom line though, is through your excellent examples, I am seeing and reading more clearly how a cultures predominant belief & moral systems can be highly dependent on how perspective. (I know that's very layman's terms!  ^_^ )

 

Thank you again so much for sharing fourty-two!!!

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  • 1 year later...

Andrew Pudewa from the Institute for Excellence in Writing has a lecture called "Fairy Tales and the Moral Imagination" that might be helpful to you in identifying criteria for literature you feel comfortable using in your family. You can download it at http://iew.com/shop/products/fairy-tales-and-moral-imagination-andrew-pudewa.

SebastianCat, IĂ¢â‚¬â„¢ve been going back through this thread again as itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s a topic IĂ¢â‚¬â„¢m still digesting and processing. I wanted you to know I bought and listened to this talk. Yes, it was informative. Thank you for recommending it! HSsquared

 

 

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I originally wrote this post about Ancient Literature...how to digest it all. I must say the responses, though it was quite sometime ago, have still been helpful as I have been on a digesting journey-reading and processing and so on. One book I failed to obtain promptly that was a recommendation someone shared in this thread, I did get yesterday and have read most of it already. As such, I wish to offer my review, as follows, should anyone else struggle with the same topic as I.

 

To make an oh so very long story short, I was recommended to obtain and read Gladys HuntĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s Ă¢â‚¬Å“Honey for a ChildĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s Heart.Ă¢â‚¬ I cannot say it enough how beautifully written and wonderfully inspirational this book as been to me-and I just got it yesterday and IĂ¢â‚¬â„¢ve read most of the book already! It is a delight to read but written with clear purpose of mind and heart to better engage children with good literature as well as the Bible and how these sources of quality truths intertwine to help weave a childĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s character and morals and how parents must be quite intentional and deliberate with teaching great literature, which quite honestly has behooved me in the past. I feel my heart rejoicing, relieved as I am relinquishing past hesitation, always having considered first the morals and villains and causation of a booksĂ¢â‚¬â„¢ narrative and instead am ready to embrace timely age appropriate literature as opportunities to open new worlds to my children, engage in conversations that otherwise would likely never happen, for not us broadening our readings outside our simple comfort zones. If anyone else happens to have had hesitations like I have with certain topics geared for children, I can not recommend this book enough. And, hesitation or not, now on its 4th edition, including book list updates each time, this book is sure to become a literary treasure in your home. Sincerely, Sherra

 

 

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Well said Bluegoat, I'm out to sea for sure! I appreciate your reply as well as your recommendations! Thank you for the perspective of how reading such fictional books, poetry, etc can positively impact your life, not just be an entertainment for the mind. Thank you!!! That is a turning point for me worth noting in understanding writings such as these!

Studies have shown that fiction actually has more influence than non fiction.

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:grouphug:

 

I was raised in a Christian household but my upbringing is so vastly different that I don't think I can help.  I read fiction in general and science fiction and fantasy in particular quite voraciously as a child and throughout my life.  So did my brother.  I have no frame of reference for your journey.  However, I wanted to send you support and a big welcome and hopes that your journey, in whatever form it takes, is a fulfilling one for you and your children.  

 

Kuddos to those who are posting in this thread and helping OP process this.  I am finding a lot of interesting and useful responses here myself.  :)

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