Could this be dyslexia?

[blessed2fosteradopt]

My 9.5 yr. old daughter was diagnosed with CAPD last year.  She has been working with an SLP for about a year now.  She still struggles with comprehension, spelling, vocabulary....basically anything with language but she has been slowly improving.  I am now questioning whether she may have dyslexia in addition to this diagnosis.  I asked her therapist about this a few months ago and she said that she would have to refer her out for testing but thought we should give it a bit more time.  Here are the reasons I am thinking she may have dyslexia as well.

 

Her reading is very choppy.  Just like the recent poster, my daughter skips words often and switches words, ex; the for and, is for to, of for for.  She also constantly leaves suffixes off the ends of words jump for jumping, nice for nicer, etc.  She also adds r's to words often, strick for stick, strand for stand and will read words like except as expect.  Also, she always writes 7x6=24 even though she knows it is 24. Consequently, she solves 6x4 as 42. She still reverses her b's and d's. When she reads I use my finger to track the words for her but she still skips and reads small words incorrectly often.

 

Does this sound like it could be dyslexia on top of CAPD?  Who would I seek out for testing?  She received her diagnosis from University of Tennessee's Psychology Department and it reads:

 

315.32 Language Disorder

315.00 Specific Learning Disorder with Impairment in Reading

 

I was not told that she had dyslexia at the time but she was further diagnosed by an audiologist as having CAPD.

 

Sorry I am all over the place.  This is tough stuff to navigate and I am thoroughly confused.  Thoughts??

 

Thank you as always,

 

Lisa

[wapiti]

Certainly it's common for a person to have more than one issue.  Did the SLP run a CTOPP?

 

She still reverses her b's and d's. When she reads I use my finger to track the words for her but she still skips and reads small words incorrectly often.

 

FWIW, these can be symptoms of developmental vision issues.

[Citrusheights5]

315.00 is the diagnosis my sons have, and they are both officially dyslexic. That is what the school calls it. What test were done? hopefully the CTOPP, as that one is the clearest in pointing to dyslexia.

 

Can she say stop without the /s/? (Top)

[EKS]

What you're describing sounds like dyslexia.  It is likely that the CAPD is what I think of as a "missed diagnosis," meaning that your daughter's CAPD is likely related to her dyslexia, but that dyslexia is what ties it all together.

 

My son was diagnosed with CAPD, SPD, ADHD, Asperger's, and vision issues before finally being diagnosed with dyslexia.  The dyslexia explained all but the Asperger's, which was a true misdiagnosis.

[PeterPan]

SLD Reading *is* dyslexia.  The ps is using SLD Reading as a label more broadly, but yes it's dyslexia.  In fact, there's a LOT of battling going on right now with dyslexia advocates over this very problem.  The kid goes, gets diagnosed SLD Reading by the ps, but the parent never connects that to the common word to enable them to advocate more effectively!

 

So yes, she already has the SLD Reading diagnosis.  What do you need to make happen?  Are you having overall issues with reading?  With my ds, that noticing the bits is partly EF (executive function).  I have him going through speech therapy materials that force him to notice the bits.  But that's showing up in his speech, etc., not only in the reading.  

 

You might look through the report and see what language testing they did.  There might be a CELF or CASL or something with subtests to let you see what you need to work on.  If it's only occurring in reading, that's one thing.  If it's appearing in more contexts, you'll need to address that more completely.  

 

Has she had an OT eval?  Any OT symptoms?  My ds is just about ambidextrous, and that mixed dominance and indeterminate dominance is linked to language issues.  Sometimes OT work on dominance, etc. can improve language, odd as it sounds.  

[blessed2fosteradopt]

She was administered the CELF4 and from what I can see the only area it said she was borderline was working memory. The therapist did point out to me that she had a significant discrepancy with regard to the receptive-expressive language index. Here are some of her scores if it will help you help me make sense of this.

 

Concepts and Following Directions 63

Word Structure 37

Recalling Sentences 37

Formulated Sentences 9

Word Classes 2 Receptive 75

Word Classes 2 Expressive 25

Word Classes Total 50

Sentence Structure 84

Expressive Vocabulary 50

Understanding Spoken Paragraphs 37

Number Repetition Forward 25

Backward 9

Number Repetition Total 9

Familiar Sequences 25

 

I am lost as how to really interpret all of this. CAPD has been the only diagnosis that has ever been relayed to me. I want to make sure I am not missing the whole picture. Is the CTOPP a test specific to dyslexia?

[blessed2fosteradopt]

315.00 is the diagnosis my sons have, and they are both officially dyslexic. That is what the school calls it. What test were done? hopefully the CTOPP, as that one is the clearest in pointing to dyslexia.

 

Can she say stop without the /s/? (Top)

She was not administered the CTOPP. She was administered the CELF4, WISC-IV and the WIAT-III. She can say stop without the s.

[PeterPan]

Yes, the CTOPP is a common one they'll run, because it's a test of phonological processing. 

 

There's a big spread there.  Were those scores in the 60s to 80s more in line with her IQ?  See comparatively, you've got quite a few in the 20s and 30s, a big spread.  You've got sequencing issues, working memory issues, expressive language issues, comprehension issues...  

 

Is she working with an SLP?  I ended up getting some materials from Super Duper to use with my ds.  I haven't had him retested, but they're clearly working for him.  You have a complex situation.  If you have the time, you could work together with an SLP and formulate a plan to tackle these areas.

 

One of the APD screenings my ds had was half stuff you'd fail as a dyslexic.  We don't think he has APD.  I'm just acknowledging there is some overlap there.  You've got both and a complex situation.  With my ds, I just try to look at each thing in the language testing and say ok, am I working on this, do I need to add something to our routine, can I modify something we're already doing to help us work on that thing, etc.

[PeterPan]

She was not administered the CTOPP. She was administered the CELF4, WISC-IV and the WIAT-III. She can say stop without the s.

So you're wanting them to go back and do the CTOPP?  A ps or SLP could do it.  You already have the diagnosis, and it's not like it's hurting anything.  It's just another tool.  To me the question is what that CTOPP would have told you.  How is her rapid naming?  RAN/RAS is typically low with dyslexia.  With my ds, I worked on it.  That's about all the earth shattering you'd get at this point getting the CTOPP.  Just go ahead and do some work for it 5 minutes a day and be done with it, kwim?  :)

[blessed2fosteradopt]

SLD Reading *is* dyslexia. The ps is using SLD Reading as a label more broadly, but yes it's dyslexia. In fact, there's a LOT of battling going on right now with dyslexia advocates over this very problem. The kid goes, gets diagnosed SLD Reading by the ps, but the parent never connects that to the common word to enable them to advocate more effectively!

 

So yes, she already has the SLD Reading diagnosis. What do you need to make happen? Are you having overall issues with reading? With my ds, that noticing the bits is partly EF (executive function). I have him going through speech therapy materials that force him to notice the bits. But that's showing up in his speech, etc., not only in the reading.

 

You might look through the report and see what language testing they did. There might be a CELF or CASL or something with subtests to let you see what you need to work on. If it's only occurring in reading, that's one thing. If it's appearing in more contexts, you'll need to address that more completely.

 

Has she had an OT eval? Any OT symptoms? My ds is just about ambidextrous, and that mixed dominance and indeterminate dominance is linked to language issues. Sometimes OT work on dominance, etc. can improve language, odd as it sounds.

Our struggles are with language overall. Written, comprehension, poor vocabulary and spelling. Math computation is fine. She struggles with word problems especially those relating to elapsed time, measuring and money. She cannot narrate. WWE1 is very difficult for her. Her handwriting and cursive is beautiful and she draws very well.

[PeterPan]

Btw, it's not just ability to do things.  My ds can now do some things, but he fatigues SO easily because his little brain is working SO hard.

 

There must have been some pretty significant discrepancy there between IQ and WIAT achievement scores for them to get there without a CTOPP.  

[PeterPan]

Our struggles are with language overall. Written, comprehension, poor vocabulary and spelling. Math computation is fine. She struggles with word problems especially those relating to elapsed time, measuring and money. She cannot narrate. WWE1 is very difficult for her. Her handwriting and cursive is beautiful and she draws very well.

Bingo.  You're going to need to work on language.  Is she working with an SLP?  I have the book Teach Me Language to go through some of those skills with my ds.  The sequencing, for instance, is what is glitching her narration.  It's more complex than that, but look at those CELF subtests and you'll see thing after thing that is LOW that is necessary to have these complex school tasks come together.

 

WWE, etc. are not therapy materials.  They're not going to solve the problem.  I would look at each of those subtests, go to Super Duper, put the issue in (sequencing, etc.) and then work on it.  You'll get overwhelmed, so pick 3 to start with.  Work in short sessions multiple times a day.  Do the speech therapy materials as school, and weave the skills into play to sneak in more time to work on them.  An hour a day would NOT be too much.  

 

Believe it or not, I totally stopped doing Barton with my ds to focus on language.  He was essentially hyperlexic, unable to understand what he was reading.  We had gotten to level 4, and he just couldn't comprehend it.  The work on language has improved his language to where he voluntarily tries to read short things (sentences he finds in the environment, not books).  I'm using the Grammar Processing Program from Super Duper and like it a lot.  We've done *some* work on sequencing and we have more to go.  I have a pile of language games and we try to play those too.  EVERYTHING is going back to language.  The CELF testing is your roadmap for this intervention.

 

Teachers Pay Teachers also has some good stuff.  But really, just for ease of use, can't beat the Super Duper things.

[blessed2fosteradopt]

Her FSIQ on the WISC IV was 112 high average. 73%

 

Verbal Comp 47%

Perceptual Reasoning 99.5%

Working Memory 42%

Processing Speed 34%

[blessed2fosteradopt]

And yes, she is working with an SLP for a year now. I drive 90 minutes twice a week for 2 30 minute sessions. The fatigue is apparent with her as well. I have looked at Super Duper often but get overwhelmed. I have made so many expensive mistakes.

[PeterPan]

Yup, that's what I figured.  And is she on meds?  Did they also diagnose ADHD?  Meds would bump the processing speed and I've heard (word on the street) that they can help some kids with the APD too.

 

So yes, you've got this 70's percentile IQ, some of the scores lining up with that, and a ton of those scores just really discrepant and low.  And that, of course is why you end up with the language disorder label.  That's what is glitching your academics.  And some of it is really subtle.  Look how low that expressive lang scores are.  There's no way a dc that bright can get out her thoughts with scores so low.  She can't sequence the thoughts, can't remember them, nothing.  You're going to have to pull out all the stops.  WWE is way too hard a starting point. 

 

Nifty thing, but it seems like the Super Duper GPP is making my ds' working memory larger, which is letting him remember and organize more complex thoughts.  You're going to find tasks where you can work on multiple things from your list of goals at once.  

[wapiti]

FWIW, if it wasn't already mentioned, you have a 2e situation, potentially a VSL.  You might find The Dyslexic Advantage to be an interesting read.

[PeterPan]

And yes, she is working with an SLP for a year now. I drive 90 minutes twice a week for 2 30 minute sessions. The fatigue is apparent with her as well. I have looked at Super Duper often but get overwhelmed. I have made so many expensive mistakes.

Oh wow.  See, this is what galls me about SLPs and the whole therapy gig.  And you know, I'm right with you.  I drive 2 hours each way.  I used to drive 2 1/2.  ;)  And that's awful, because there's nothing she's doing that you couldn't do.  Oh she might do it smarter, but I'm not so sure.  But seriously, you drive 45 minutes each way and get 30 min of therapy?  I drive 2 hours each way and get 2 hours of therapy.  

 

I'll tell you, my ds can't do intense language work for 2 hours.  Like with him, I do things for chunks, like 10-15 minutes and the MOST.  But we work really intensely, kwim?  

 

I guess you know your preference.  You've got gas costs.  You could do things at home.  If the SLP will get off their "god" complex, you could work together.  There's more than enough work to go around, my lands.  

[blessed2fosteradopt]

FWIW, if it wasn't already mentioned, you have a 2e situation, potentially a VSL. You might find The Dyslexic Advantage to be an interesting read.

Nope. Never mentioned. And forgive my ignorance but what is VSL? I will definitely check out the book.

[blessed2fosteradopt]

Oh wow. See, this is what galls me about SLPs and the whole therapy gig. And you know, I'm right with you. I drive 2 hours each way. I used to drive 2 1/2. ;) And that's awful, because there's nothing she's doing that you couldn't do. Oh she might do it smarter, but I'm not so sure. But seriously, you drive 45 minutes each way and get 30 min of therapy? I drive 2 hours each way and get 2 hours of therapy.

 

I'll tell you, my ds can't do intense language work for 2 hours. Like with him, I do things for chunks, like 10-15 minutes and the MOST. But we work really intensely, kwim?

 

I guess you know your preference. You've got gas costs. You could do things at home. If the SLP will get off their "god" complex, you could work together. There's more than enough work to go around, my lands.

With every session, I think the same thing. I could and do most of the same things that she does in therapy. It has been explained to me that 30 minutes is about all she can take because of brain fatigue.

 

Do you have any specific recommendations for me with regard to materials from Super Duper? I am off to look now.

[PeterPan]

Her FSIQ on the WISC IV was 112 high average. 73%

 

Verbal Comp 47%

Perceptual Reasoning 99.5%

Working Memory 42%

Processing Speed 34%

 

 

FWIW, if it wasn't already mentioned, you have a 2e situation, potentially a VSL.  You might find The Dyslexic Advantage to be an interesting read.

I'm not a guru on the WISC.  Are you saying her GAI would be higher?  And am I seeing a super huge gap between verbal and nonverbal there, or am I crazy?  Don't answer that.   :lol:

 

Anyways, I agree that no matter what, the dc is clearly BRIGHT, which is why the discrepancy and the scad of scores in the 20s and 30s on that CELF just isn't cool.  That means there's a big gap between what she's *thinking* and what she's getting out.  It's why I'm really passionate about the language work we're doing, because I think it *matters*.  

 

Teach Me Language is really terrific, btw.  It might give you a roadmap of skills.  It hits money, for instance.  It's not a question of teaching money but about the *language* problems glitching things.  It covers narrations.  All sorts of stuff.  

 

Super Duper has a way to sort by tag/diagnosis.  I don't know if they have a CAPD tag?  They definitely have an autism tag.  I would sift that way and then use your gut.  I would google the terms (sequencing, etc.) from the CELF test, learn about them, then search them on Super Duper.  Remember, you DON'T HAVE TO BE PERFECT at this.  Just doing SOMETHING will probably get your juices churning and get you going with ideas for real life ways to help her.  That real life stuff, using things she's interested in, is even better!  Your challenge is learning these terms and realizing what you're trying to make happen, so you can translate that into her world and into what she'll enjoy and find engaging.  Then you'll be able to practice it more in life.

 

You do NOT have to do this perfectly to be of benefit.

[wapiti]

My guess is the GAI cannot be calculated (by rule) due to the discrepancy between verbal and perceptual.  But yes, that jumped out at me, along with the other scores.  In my world, this would still be 2e.

 

VSL

Edited February 23, 2016 by wapiti

[PeterPan]

With every session, I think the same thing. I could and do most of the same things that she does in therapy. It has been explained to me that 30 minutes is about all she can take because of brain fatigue.

 

Do you have any specific recommendations for me with regard to materials from Super Duper? I am off to look now.

Well I'm stupid crazy for the Grammar Processing Program.  The Grammar Processing Program

 

Staples (online) has shockingly good prices on some SD things.

 

This is the next thing I want to get.  I think it's sort of functionally the sequel to GPP, but I'm not sure.

The Processing Program - Level 1 - REVISED

 

I think on therapy stuff your best bet is to start with the terms in the CELF and go with your gut.  If your gut says hey, that's way cool, we could have fun doing that together, that would stretch her, then yeah I think you'll have a good fit.  You'll be able to resell this stuff later I would think.  

 

Ok, why I like GPP?  I'm NOT saying what you should buy.  I have no clue.  I don't knjow what a good starting point is for her and I don't know her.  Why I like it for my ds is because of the incremental, spiraling instruction.  You start off with just a couple parameters and they hold those and build.  I use it both receptively (I read, he points/touches), and expressively (he makes up a sentence following the pattern and I touch).  That's wicked hard for him!  We can never do more than 2-3 plates at a time in the book.  We usually do just 2.  It's just really hard, really fatiguing.  The other thing I like is that I can read the sentences very fast, forcing him to attend to every little detail.  He has to notice sing/plural, male/female/neuter, adjectives, verbs, EVERYTHING, every single time, in order to get the correct picture.  LOVE this.  That's the metalinguistics and noticing of the bits.  And of course the side effect of that is that it has improved his ability to hold more thoughts and have more nuanced, complex thoughts.  

 

I just can't say that's a good starting point for your dd.  I don't know.  Search through, looking by diagnosis, and see what pops up.  I think if you go with your gut, you'll be fine.

[blessed2fosteradopt]

They do not have a CAPD tag. I will look at her test some more and see what I can find.

 

Looking at these numbers, it is apparent that you are clearly much more able to interpret them than I am. With regard to the perceptual reasoning, is there a method I should be using to tap into that obvious strength and to develop it further? Also, what professional could I utilize to help me help her? I really feel ill equipped.

[PeterPan]

2, 3, 4 Sequences Galore

 

You can search on SD for sequencing, which is one of the areas flagged by your CELF scores.  So then don't just go oh and put them in order without talking, kwim?  You're going to kick that up, milking it.  (put them in order, tell back the steps, now narrate it into your kindle or make a video or...  Kwim?  You'll be able to hit multiple things at once.  You can create sequencing activities from anything you're already doing.  Fables, for instance.  You could find pictures for each step, make sentences to write under them and put in order.  I read a cute idea about cutting up comics from the paper.  But one activity to hit multiple of your goals, kwim?

[PeterPan]

If you go to their home page, you'll see a black bar with Home, Topics, Products, blah blah.  Hover over Topics, and you'll see a dropdown menu with all sorts of categories.  Auditory Processing is there.  It's sort of a wasteland, with maybe stuff you don't need.  You're going to have to look across multiple labels.  They have vocabulary in that list.  If you click Autism (in the blue bar on the left) a lot of great things will pop up.  

[blessed2fosteradopt]

My guess is the GAI cannot be calculated (by rule) due to the discrepancy between verbal and perceptual. But yes, that jumped out at me, along with the other scores. In my world, this would still be 2e.

 

VSL

Thank you for the link.

[PeterPan]

They do not have a CAPD tag. I will look at her test some more and see what I can find.

 

Looking at these numbers, it is apparent that you are clearly much more able to interpret them than I am. With regard to the perceptual reasoning, is there a method I should be using to tap into that obvious strength and to develop it further? Also, what professional could I utilize to help me help her? I really feel ill equipped.

Well as long as she doesn't have developmental vision problems (yes, actually possible), then it means she has VSL strengths she can harness to work on spelling, math, etc.

 

Who to help?  Beats me.  This stuff all seems to be hidden, stifled, like some kind of lodge process you only get access to with MA-SLP behind your name.  And yet, once you realize these people are literally buying kits and doing them, it's like ok, *I* can do that too, kwim?  And sure people might think that's hack.  Fine, but we can't AFFORD to pay people $100+ an hour to do stuff we can do ourselves, kwim?  The SLP should have been giving you things to do for that yourself.

 

You can google for the ABLLS tracking pages and find them online.  They'll explain the word classes stuff.  Jenn (who used to post more on the boards before she retired from hs'ing) had a SLP recommend Pickles to Penguins for her ds for that.  I've done it some with my ds and it's a great game.  If you actually need to work on class/feature/function, look for those tracking pages so you understand what you're trying to do.  You don't need anything fancy, but you do actually need to realize what you're trying to make happen, kwim?

[PeterPan]

I'm not sure any one SLP necessarily knows all this stuff either.  Some funky language stuff is handled by behaviorists under the ABLLS/VB-MAPP process, so I'm not sure this is necessarily something all SLPs are really hot at.  I just got shocked by that today by an SLP.  She was saying she was going to come "observe" to address the concerns that got flagged on some recent testing.  I'm like, really, OBSERVE???  For things that are quantifiable and which we actually NEED to quantify and have goals for if they are still issues???    And she finally fesses up that she has never seen those tests, can't do those tests, never works with that stuff.

 

I just think this whole idea that the SLP is an expert allows us to discount how much we *could* bring to the table, even with IMPERFECT EFFORTS.  I guarantee you your imperfect efforts, done with some consistency, WILL yield worthwhile results.  You neither have to be an expert nor fabulous at this to make progress.  You just have to try, notice things, and correct as you go.  (Correct your own efforts, correct when tasks are too hard, correct to keep it doable and positive, that kind of thing.)  

[blessed2fosteradopt]

Thank you so much for all your help and information. I agree regarding the SLP.I really don't think what she is getting from her is worth the time and effort either. Off to google and see if I can make more sense of all of this.

 

The VSL link provided by Wapiti made my heart race as well. So much of it fits my daughter. I certainly need to take a more hands on approach with her which is not my forte.

[PeterPan]

Or maybe what the SLP is doing *is* worthwhile, but maybe she could be more helpful about helping *you* carry it over at home, kwim?  Some therapists really want to do it all and some will work with you.  I like that collaborative relationship.  Many parents don't want to.  If you can get compliance, if you have the enthusiasm and time, there is a lot you can do with the dc yourself.  

 

But sure, I wouldn't want to make it sound like I'm saying cut the SLP.  Maybe collaborate and ask what you could be doing.  Or maybe someone closer.  It would at least be worth a try.

Edited February 23, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

So, for instance, what about just *1* trip a week and the SLP taking another 10 minutes to teach *you* things you can do with her?  Or you could bring ST materials and she could show you ways to use them.  To me, those long trips twice a week would be a lot.  We spend a lot of time in the car, and that would have me questioning whether it HAS to be the SLP doing that, or whether she could give you homework and collaborate.  You're there all day long, so you're the logical person to be doing that carryover.

 

Another thing you could do is make the trip, but do the first session, go eat lunch and play, then come back and do a 2nd session.  That way you're getting more therapy to balance out the ride.  

Edited February 23, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[blessed2fosteradopt]

Dp

Edited February 23, 2016 by blessed2fosteradopt

[blessed2fosteradopt]

Regarding the therapist, the last few sessions she has been working out of a basic spelling workbook with her. Nothing special. Something ala Barnes and Noble. She told me to work on having her write sentences using her spelling words. I just don't see anything special being done. A few weeks ago it was contractions. I just don't see the rhyme or reason. There is no sequencing work being done.

 

I am looking for the sheets you referenced above but am having a hard time finding or knowing exactly what I am looking for. This is exhausting. :(

[PeterPan]

Concepts and Following Directions 63

Word Structure 37

Recalling Sentences 37

Formulated Sentences 9

Word Classes 2 Receptive 75

Word Classes 2 Expressive 25

Word Classes Total 50

Sentence Structure 84

Expressive Vocabulary 50

Understanding Spoken Paragraphs 37

Number Repetition Forward 25

Backward 9

Number Repetition Total 9

Familiar Sequences 25

It doesn't sound like your SLP is bringing a lot to the table.  That's pretty astonishing that she'd work on just spelling with the huge discrepancies you have and the numerous problems with language in school work you're having and the actual language disorder label.  Not only is spelling low on the list, but it shouldn't wear her out like that.  That's just all fishy and strange.  Do you have ANY closer options???

‎

images.pearsonassessments.com/images/tmrs/tmrs_rg/CELF_4_Tech_Report.pdf?WT.mc_id=TMRS_CELF_4_Technical_Report

 

This is a link to a sample report for the CELF4.  On page 2 of the pdf it explains each subtest and what was being tested.  So, for instance, with word classes, you see that it had her doing some kind of pointing task for class/feature/function, first receptively and then expressively.  So you see that, ok, her receptive for that task is pretty good, pretty close to IQ.  But that expressive, her ability to give the class/feature/function herself is weak, a HUGE discrepancy.  And you might think why do I care?  Don't think that.  Think ok, this is such a foundational skill in development of language that they will pay for kids to have ABA and fill it in.  Without doing this, the skills that build on it are glitched.  So ok, this NEEDS to go on the list.  

 

Tracking Sheets  If you go to this link, scroll down to the tracking pages and see where it says label function, label class, label feature.  This is the stuff that section of the CELF was looking at!  So you're going to click those links, look at those pages.  They're totally self-explanatory.  They show pictures and the instructions will be either receptive (you say the class/feature/function and she points) or you can use them expressively (I point, you say the class/feature/function).  

 

You don't have to use those pages.  You can use Pickles to Penguins if you want.  I've started doing kind of a 3-up game with my ds.  Deal 3 pictures, and I give the class/feature/function (what is food?  what is a toy? what is a tool?) and he points.  That's receptive.  Then we can play the reverse, once I know he knows within that field.  My ds can point when given the class/feature/function, but for expressive he's TOAST.  Like total meltdown toast.  Things aren't *connected* in his brain to get to that simple answer.  He might have some wacky complex out there answer, but he doesn't have the basic answer.  And what we're doing is making brain connections.  Those connections help them to organize their thoughts in writing and realize yes, these things are connected and I get why.  Not in a wacky way nobody understands, but in basic ways.  It's very important.  And it's FUN to work on this stuff, kwim?  It's like 5-10 minutes, play together working on our goals, reward/pay with a treat or choice card, and that was fun!  It doesn't have to be drudgery or horrible, kwim?  

 

Ok, formulated sentences.  That was wicked low on her.  The table says that shows their ability to formulate a sentence about a picture prompt using a target word or phrase.  That's something you can work on using almost anything.  Super Duper probably has a Fun Deck for it.  You could take pictures of your lives together and make a book, making a sentence for each picture.  Ellie is brushing her teeth!  Ellie feeds the dog.  Ellie writes in her handwriting book.  (I'm just making all that up.)  We do a LOT of putting words to things, and frankly I prompt my ds.  When we play games, we have a lot of speech like that.  I rolled a 3!  Hop, hop, hop.  Your turn to roll the die.  So that's something where you can find both mass practice and natural ways to work on it.  Mass practice is going to be fatiguing.  I would do that for only a few minutes.  What you could even do is *weave* that skill into the sequencing.  She's at 25th percentile for sequencing.  So you could get ANY product for sequencing that catches your fancy, any at all, and hit both skills at once.  You'd go through a limited pile of pictures (1-3 sequences), saying what is happening in the picture.  The chick pecks the egg.  A chick is inside.  The chick is out!  etc. etc.  You could do it both ways to prime her.  Like first *you* say a sentence and she finds the picture from the field.  That's your Sentence Structure subtest skill.  Do that for 10-12.  Then she gives a sentence while you point.  Then you separate them by stories and sequence them.  Then you retell the stories!  And because she's super bright, you could then retell those stories using an app, a powerpoint, making a stop motion video, something that kicks it up, kwim?  Then you've got your school skill AND your speech therapy.

 

I'm going to close this one so it doesn't get lost.  More in the next.  :)

[PeterPan]

Ok, for some of those subtests (concepts/following directions, word structure, etc.), I think you're going to be able to hit them nicely with the Grammar Processing Program that I linked for you.  I like it a lot.  It's super easy to implement, helps them really attend to details, builds working memory (low on your digits subtest).  To me, it's one you can't go wrong with.  I could be wrong about that, but I'm just saying.  :)  And look on Staples website, because they have stuff like 40% off right now, which is about as good as it gets.

 

What *I* do is put GPP as part of our table time and separate it out from speech.  I use a schedule card that says speech as well.  That way I'm able to require multiple sessions targeting my speech goals but not have it FEEL like oh Mom does speech therapy on me an hour a day, kwim?  So it's like 10 minutes of GPP as part of a 15-20 minute table work session.  That speech card is my choice of stuff, but again 20 minutes of a couple things I pick.  I'll have something more overt and then a game.  For games, I have a pile of cool things.  I'm liking Pickles to Penguins right now, but actually Dixit is crazy fun.  Bubble Talk, Pirate Talk, Silly Sentences.  It's really anything you like.  But when I look at those games, I think ok, this game will let me work on these three things I'm targeting from the CELF subtests.  I know WHY I'm doing them and what things I want to make happen.  

 

Her vocabulary is low and her understanding spoken paragraphs is even lower.  (two subtests)  Both are low for IQ.  That shows you she's having trouble learning vocabulary from whatever input she's getting, and it tells you that having increased information (paragraph vs. sentence) is not improving it.  My ds is the opposite.  He has 99th percentile vocabulary, very low single sentence comprehension, and back up to ok (80th percentile) on paragraph level.  For him, his modality for learning (audiobooks that he listens to over and over to memorize) works, and more information allows him to put together meaning that he doesn't get at the single sentence level.  But your dd's comprehension is going *down* with more input and is not taking in information as well from her modalities.  

 

I'm not up on CAPD, as it's not our issue.  I think what that tells you is you need to figure out what are her best modalities for learning, for input.  If she is using audio, is she using headphones?  That can make a big difference on some kids.  Are you reading aloud to her?  My ds remembers NOTHING from a single reading.  He has to hear it 4-5 times.  That's why I gave up and started investing in audiobooks.  That way he can listen over and over.  If reading is going to be her path, then is she able to do that and having that facilitated?  Is she using any technology for the CAPD?  There are FM transmitters, HAs, some software (Fast For Word), and even supposedly a listening therapy (EASe) that can help.  I'm not up on those things, but you're wanting to pair the scores with what you know about her weaknesses and use that to say ok, I need to strengthen this method of input or pick a different one that will be stronger for her.  

 

Well that's enough.   This is hard stuff!  I've had my ds' CELF results for a year and a half.  It's not like it was just obvious to me, kwim?  It took time to sort out ok this is what the subtest is testing, this is how it shows up in real life, this is how I can work on it.  I think, and this is just me, that anything that is HUGELY discrepant from IQ ought to move up the list.  If her ability in that area is 25th percentile and her brain is working at 70th percentile, then you have this gap between what she WANTS to do and what she can do.  And we can close that gap with some targeted work.  And to me, that work is play and that work IS school.  We just weave our school skills right in.  She can read the sentences on the cards.  She can dictate the sequence, you scribe, she reads. For a while, for 6-9 months, you can focus on language development and let it BE school.  

[wapiti]

Well as long as she doesn't have developmental vision problems (yes, actually possible), then it means she has VSL strengths she can harness to work on spelling, math, etc.

 

This.  She may not be able to fully use those strengths if there are developmental vision problems, and you've listed enough possible symptoms that it may be worth a look, to rule out.  You can take her for a regular annual vision checkup to a COVD - they can screen for some stuff and talk with you about whether a full developmental vision eval may be warranted.  (Full developmental vision eval is a separate, long appt.)

[kbutton]

I have a 2e kid with CAPD and language issues. He has some soft signs of dyslexia, but not enough to diagnose. He also had some significant stuff going with visual processing, but that is much better from vision therapy. He has trouble sequencing motor movements, motor speech, etc. but not so much trouble with sequencing something pictoral.

 

I would start a new post--something like CAPD, language problems, communicating visually. You might get Crimson Wife to reply, and she will definitely have ideas on using the visual stuff to get concepts across. Your daughter is clearly very bright but kneecapped in the language area. You can do this--you just need some tools and more information.

 

Have you read this book about CAPD? http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FC0WOM/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?ie=UTF8&btkr=1 

 

Also Kathy Kuhl (great speaker on general stuff for struggling learners--accessible information, gives you a broad base), had a blurb in her newsletter about CAPD. Just came to my inbox today. You might look at some of her stuff just to start, and she's very approachable if you hear her speak in person. http://www.learndifferently.com/ You will need more specific help than what she gives, but she can help you maybe find words for what you're seeing and just generally help you feel more equipped.

 

Super Duper has videos all over their site to show how different products are used. That's the only way in which I can make sense of their products. Your SLP does not sound helpful (sorry to say), but it's not your fault--there is tremendous variation, and we've had discussions on this board about SLPs and how they really need to break the field into several specialties. 

 

I am so sorry that your hard work did not yield good information and direction from the specialists. They should not be leaving you hanging to figure it out yourself (at least not to this extent).

 

Hang in there!

[blessed2fosteradopt]

Sorry I am just replying.  I was out delivering GS cookies.  'Tis the season!  I truly appreciate all the hand holding.  I just put the suggested book on hold and am slowly trying to digest all the information.  It is very overwhelming to say the least and I am thankful for the encouragement. I am going to sit down and read over everything carefully and I am certain I will be back with more questions.  Thank you all for being so gracious!