Auditory Digit Span Lists?

[riverloke]

I am bringing my 9yo son home to restart 3rd grade, and I've just figured out that he has a low auditory digit span of 5. I'm learning more about it and planning to work on it with him, but I'm having trouble coming up with a good resource. I've seen the digit span cards for sale on Little Giant Steps, but I'm hoping to find some free lists somewhere, not just of numbers, but letters, words, anything to mix it up. I realize I could make my own cards or lists, but time and energy are at an all-time low. Have you come across anything good, preferably free? I prefer to keep him low-tech for now.

Edited February 11, 2016 by riverloke

[PeterPan]

Addie Cusimano has some very affordable books on amazon.  Auditory Sequential Memory Instructional Workbook  this is the one I have, but I can't tell if the 2012 book is the same and just updated or different.  You could sleuth that out.  The lists are nicely conceived, and for the nominal cost I would say they're worth it.  I used them with my dd while doing Heathermomster's metronome protocol.  I HIGHLY recommend that you add complexity to your working memory work.  5 isn't really that bad, honestly.  Your real issue is to make it USEFUL, able to be used while he's doing other things.

 

So, for instance, you want him to be able to use auditory, visual, etc. working memory while there are distractions.  Turn on the tv.  Turn UP the radio!  Seriously.  Because THAT'S REAL LIFE.  Real life is that he has to be able to handle other people in the room, pens dropping, an air conditioner, etc. So it's no good to practice digits and get them up to 7 if he can't do it in a dorm room, in a room taking the SAT with pens scratching and traffic and air conditioners.

 

He needs to be able to use that working memory while motor planning.  If he has it, but he can't *write* while he holds it, what good is it?  So he needs to motor plan.  Heathermomster's metronome work will get you there.  Start the metronome work, and when he can do it easily begin adding the working memory work.  You'll first want to TALK with him.  So then he's having to do the metronome work and handle the distractions of a conversation.  That's tough stuff!  

 

You can also flip it and have him to digit spans while he plans with something very engaging, like legos or a preferred toy. 

 

You also want him to be able to use that EF and motor planning while he's speaking and going thought to word.  I suggested you TALK to him while he's doing all this.  Yes, absolutely.  He needs to be able to hold his thoughts, motor plan, organize, get out words, because doing that all together with the metronome work and the distractions and the talking and the working memory is a replica of the skills he needs for writing!

 

And in fact, what I saw with my dd, was that when we did it in that way we got big leaps in her functionality.  Because 5 digits alone don't get what you want.  He already has enough.  He just isn't strong enough to use it AND do those other things.

 

I need to check if Cusimano has the more challenging exercises.  After you're done with forward, you can do harder things like n-backs.  You can also do this killer thing (like literally, it killed my dd, lol) where they have to remember the LAST digit of the PREVIOUS span of digits.  Ugly!  But that is a real life EF (executive function) skill, to have delayed memory, to hold that thought while you move on to something else.

 

So don't think simple.   :)

 

Have you taught him to type yet?  Or, if typing is too complex for his mix, is he using dictation yet?  With my ds, I do dictation into the kindle fire.  My dd struggle with handwriting and typing for years, so she types with the Dvorak keyboard layout.  Improving keyboarding (or getting him used to dictation) is one of the single biggest tools you have for making things go better.  

 

Does he have an IEP, or have you had evals to know everything going on?

Edited February 11, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[riverloke]

No IEP, no evaluations. His grandmother has been teaching for 40+ years and she sent me an article on auditory processing. He does have trouble with lots of extra, distracting noise in the room. I do plan to incorporate music and other noises into his workday. The interactive metronome idea looks relevant, too, as he does not keep a beat with music. Thank you for the book recommendation; that looks like just the thing. 

Edited February 11, 2016 by riverloke

[PeterPan]

It would be helpful for you to distinguish whether it's ADHD or APD or both.  You're asking about working memory, but that isn't what you would be focusing on for auditory processing disorder.  

 

You can get an audiology eval and the screening portion of the SCAN3 for $35 at the university near us.  It's about $380 to get that done privately.  If she's actually suggesting APD, you'll want to get screened for that.  Even if you withdraw him, federal law mandates the school do the evals to identify the disabilities.  They don't have to treat, but they do have to do the evals.  The school can eval for ADHD, do the SCAN3 to screen for APD, etc. etc.  

 

Evals would help you target your efforts.

[MistyMountain]

I agree with OhElizabeth that the foward span is not the most important thing but if they can hold it while doing other things. My ds foward span was ok but he had a much weaker backward span which was showing he just was not good at keep things in his head while doing something else. I saw a game on Amazon called distraction that looks interesting. I gave done jungle memory with ds but I do want to do more and IM is something I am considering for the future. You can do it low tech instead but if you can make it so he has to keep info in his head while working on something else it will help in other areas.

[nature girl]

OhE, can you recommend any resources for visual working memory? Or could the book you linked be used in that way? Anna actually seems to do okay with auditory, she actually tested normal in her eval (where they only looked at auditory), but I think visual WM is one of the issues behind her labored copywork...She has to look up at the word she's copying, back to her paper and up again, letter by letter, then loses her place...And when she looks at math problems, she has to say the numbers out loud in order to hold them in memory for long enough to solve them.

 

Also, do you think a 6yo who hates boredom might be able to sit still for that book? Or should I just bite the bullet and pay for a program like Jungle Memory?

 

Misty, could you link to that Distraction game? I searched Amazon but wasn't able to find it.

[Bookworm4]

Misty, could you link to that Distraction game? I searched Amazon but wasn't able to find it.

I know I am not Misty, but you may not be seeing the game because Amazon is out of stock right now. I have had it in my cart the past week or two and it looks like I missed out. This is the game though. http://thinkfun.com/products/distraction/

[geodob]

Though 4 to 5, is the average digit span.

 

But the actual digit span of the human brain, is 4.

Which can be formed into a single chunk/ group.

With 5 digits, they need to be divided into groups of '2 & 3', or '1 &4'.

 

So that we recall both groups.

Where we actually have a potential, 16 digit span.

But this is in fact, a recall of 4 groups of 4 digits.

 

If you reflect on how you recall phone numbers?

You will probably observe that you recall them in blocks of numbers?

 

Though you also mentioned that 'he does not keep a beat with music'?

Which directly relates to this forming of groups with groups?

Where 4/4 is the standard beat.

With different beats formed with 4 as the base.

[nature girl]

I know I am not Misty, but you may not be seeing the game because Amazon is out of stock right now. I have had it in my cart the past week or two and it looks like I missed out. This is the game though. http://thinkfun.com/products/distraction/

 

Ahh, thank you! That does look like it would be perfect for training WM, and fun as well. Anyone interested, it looks like there are several copies on ebay for around $10. I'm going to pick one up now. :)

[PeterPan]

Two Chick-fil-A Cows

 

It's not so much about what you have as what you *do* with what you have.  Our VT never worked with anything fancier than Spot It and Chocolate Fix and dd got progress.  This link will give you a start.  I saved the link thinking I'd try some of the variations with my ds.  For him, I'm usually focusing on ability to *speak* and use his working memory.  Dd's work was all done by the VT.

[nature girl]

Ooh, brilliant, and we already have Spot It. Thank you!

 

So you're saying you think this type of brain training really only helps a child optimize the way they use the WM they have, rather than actually improving it? Like they learn mental tricks similar to those people who can remember lists of 100 words?

[PeterPan]

AM, you'll increase WM as you stretch what they hold or how they recall the info or the circumstances under which they hold it.  So you could increase distractions and stretch it.  Distractions could be noise, having them play with a toy while they do the digit spans, etc.  Stretching how they recall the info could be like n-backs or remembering the last number of the previous digit span as the correct answer.  And of course what they hold could be numbers of digits, sure, but it could also be lists of words or phrases with minimal differences.  

 

I haven't had my ds retested, but I think the Grammar Processing Program (GPP) that we've been doing from Super Duper has been stretching my ds' working memory.  It's the point where he's having to remember SO many discriminating details that it's really like WOW.  And that, for him, becomes strong because it's like ok I can notice 6 details (sing/plural, masc/feminine, an adjective, etc.) AND use my speech or some motor planning.  Those Spot It exercises are trying to get you to do similar discrimination to stretch your visual processing. 

 

So yes, you'll stretch it.  If you just play Ticket to Ride every day together you'll stretch her working memory.  Nuts, go get the Agricola app for ipad or the Agricola 2 player board version.  Play that every day for a month, and I GUARANTEE you'll increase her working memory.  :)

[MistyMountain]

That was the game I was talking about that was linked. Any other cheap games for either auditory or visual working memory especially for younger kids?

[Bookworm4]

That was the game I was talking about that was linked. Any other cheap games for either auditory or visual working memory especially for younger kids?

This link has a list of games that can be used for visual memory. I imagine that you could add in components to build auditory memory, but I am too new at this to give a recommendation on how to combine them.

http://www.thevisiontherapycenter.com/discovering-vision-therapy/95-vision-friendly-holiday-gift-ideas-for-you-and-your-family?utm_campaign=news-release&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=15380886&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-_IRl1ZaHfz-rwhG6WEqCvzS8ixYXZtjdMRyG15HX4X0mgds83th_-HMtKm94wYH3hTQwgiWXxN8WGtOIQdOhW9OsDJlA&_hsmi=15380886

[nature girl]

Anna was able to remember 6 numbers (spoken to her) last night, while she was playing, which I think is pretty average for her age. When I asked her a minute later what the last number had been, though, she gave me the first number. So...I don't know what that means.

 

I think she's a bit young for Ticket to Ride, definitely too young for Agricola, but I'll keep them in mind! I was thinking the basic Memory game tests visual WM, so maybe we should do that more often. I probably should have realized earlier wm was an issue, because she's always been pretty awful at it. It seems like most kids are better at it than grown ups, but she just can't hold the position of cards in her mind...The Distraction game should work well to stretch her, I think we'll try alternating either that, Spot It and Memory every day.

 

I'm looking through the list you linked Bookworm, and I can see how many of them work on visual thinking, they're excellent games, but I'm trying to figure out which really stretch working memory. I'll have to look through the games I'm not familiar with, though. (ETA: Okay, I take that back! Looking closer there are a few that look like they'd be great for wm.)

Edited February 12, 2016 by Anna's Mom

[Bookworm4]

Anna's Mom, a couple other things our VT did with visual working memory is teach DD how to visualize certain things. They worked on anything from studying a picture for a certain length of time and then she would tell the therapist every detail she could remember, to learning to visualize sight words and then spelling them certain ways. With a sight word, she would have her visualize the word and then spell it forwards then backwards, and then inside out (i.e. "Would" inside out = "wdolu"). DD was 6 at the time so I don't remember them going past a 4 letter word spelled inside out. Once she could do that with a word, then she had to do the same thing but only say a letter each time she touched a swinging ball.

 

All that said, those exercises did help her visual memory, but when it comes to copy work she still can only copy 1-2 letters at a time. For her, combining not just remembering the letters but also how to form them, which direction the letters face, how to space them on the paper, etc. present a whole new list of challenges and impact how many she can remember at once.

[nature girl]

Those are good ideas...She has a hard time with spelling, I think because she has difficulty picturing the words in her head. I've had her remember spellings using songs, so using auditory wm, but I'll try having her picture the words. How old is your DD? I do hope copywork starts to get easier as writing becomes more automatic. When we're back in PS or in college, I wonder if Anna will ever be able to copy from a textbook or from a board while a teacher is talking, or if she'll always need to record or have some other accommodation...

 

Anna's Mom, a couple other things our VT did with visual working memory is teach DD how to visualize certain things. They worked on anything from studying a picture for a certain length of time...

 

I saw a game called Stare that was a Lightening Deal on Amazon around Christmastime, which does exactly this. I also saw this on sale around the same time, good for visual wm: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0083IECUA/ref=gbps_tit_s-3_4322_29ce392f?pf_rd_p=2318544322&pf_rd_s=slot-3&pf_rd_t=701&pf_rd_i=gb_main&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0VZWH4SXJX6FVJXXKPQ2

 

And there's an app called Memory Train that we used to play, which does this as well. I wonder how well increasing wm for pictures translates to remembering sequences of letters and numbers. Is it all the same process?

[Bookworm4]

Those are good ideas...She has a hard time with spelling, I think because she has difficulty picturing the words in her head. I've had her remember spellings using songs, so using auditory wm, but I'll try having her picture the words. How old is your DD? I do hope copywork starts to get easier as writing becomes more automatic. When we're back in PS or in college, I wonder if Anna will ever be able to copy from a textbook or from a board while a teacher is talking, or if she'll always need to record or have some other accommodation...

 

 

I saw a game called Stare that was a Lightening Deal on Amazon around Christmastime, which does exactly this. I also saw this on sale around the same time, good for visual wm: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0083IECUA/ref=gbps_tit_s-3_4322_29ce392f?pf_rd_p=2318544322&pf_rd_s=slot-3&pf_rd_t=701&pf_rd_i=gb_main&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0VZWH4SXJX6FVJXXKPQ2

 

And there's an app called Memory Train that we used to play, which does this as well. I wonder how well increasing wm for pictures translates to remembering sequences of letters and numbers. Is it all the same process?

You may want to search the boards to read more about dysgraphia or start a different thread with dysgraphia or copy work in your title. I believe it is more involved than just working memory and you may get more help in that direction in a thread specific to that.

 

ETA: my DD is 8.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Bookworm4

[nature girl]

I don't think she has dysgraphia, she's able to get her thoughts on paper if she writes slowly (although she never wants to write more than a sentence or two, I guess because it's so slow for her.) She may have mild dysgraphia though, I'll have to keep an eye on things and have her tested eventually if the issues become more clear.

[Bookworm4]

I don't think she has dysgraphia, she's able to get her thoughts on paper if she writes slowly (although she never wants to write more than a sentence or two, I guess because it's so slow for her.) She may have mild dysgraphia though, I'll have to keep an eye on things and have her tested eventually if the issues become more clear.

 

Sorry, I just realized that your DD was only 6.  What you described in copy work reminded me of my DD8 and Susan Barton's description of the laborious copy work in a video recently.  I don't know what is or is not normal for a 6 year old though.  Hopefully others will be better help than me in this area for you.