Barton Pretest Expectations

[Joyful Journeys]

Do I have it right that your average typical kindergarten student, age 5, should be able to pass this test? My daughter is almost 6 (April bday) and could not focus enough to do the third part at all. She missed several in part A but did clap syllables well. I wonder if LiPS would help her if she can't focus at all? For background, she has some speech issues that were termed auditory processing problems back when she was 3. She has never been to an audiologist. I just wonder if I should do something like AAR with her next year for first grade.

 

While I'm waiting for my 8 yr olds first Pysch eval this week, my attention has been diverted to my 5yr old. I thought she was doing quite well before Christmas with reading, but now, I'm not so sure. She refuses to do anything..and not just school related..in general. She seems to have completely changed to a different child over the last couple of months.

 

I'm just unsure what to do next year if she should have been able to pass this. DD8 didn't pass either, but she at least was able to do the whole thing. I'm guessing LiPS for both of them is the way to go? I don't know how I'm going to explain to dd8 that her and DD5.5 need to do the same work :/ Maybe big sister needs to help get little sister to do "her" work?

 

If you read all my ramblings, thank you :) We are about to move, getting tests done, trying to find a doc in our new place for vision therapy, and everyone is sick of winter. Feb is indeed the worst!

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

I'm no expert, but yes, I think it is expected that a 5 almost 6 year old should pass the pre-test unless there are issues that need to be addressed.  Whether LiPS will address those issues or not I cannot say, but it certainly might.  Evaluations would probably help determine the best course of action.  I realize with all that is going on this is a difficult time.  I want to reassure you that if you need to wait on specific reading instruction with your children for a bit while you all get well, get relocated, get evals, etc., there is no reason why you can't take a break.  Do some read alouds, play some games, etc.  Your children are young.  You have time to sort this out.

 

As for how one child might accept using the same material as another child, I think that depends on a few things:  

 

1.  How have you presented materials in the past?  Have you ever combined them for anything?  

 

2.  How you present these material.  (No reason why they can't get used to using some of the same material).

 

3.  Their personalities.  If they are competitive and wanting to get ahead of each other, that might make this more challenging, but you wouldn't be doing the LiPS lessons together, at least that isn't recommended.  It is better done one on one, although I realize that isn't always possible.

 

FWIW, my son and daughter are using mostly the same math program.  My daughter has dyscalculia so even though she is technically 3 grade levels ahead of her brother, he is actually a bit ahead of her in this math program.  I do not call the grade levels grade levels.  I call them levels and they both understand you have to pass the levels to move up to the next level of learning.  Barton Reading and Spelling is levels, not grade levels, and that is what we use for reading remediation so they understand this and accept it.  DD is ahead of DS in Barton but at times he leaped ahead of her.  Since I work with them separately in both math and reading remediation, they are aware they are using the same programs but they are not terribly aware of where the other is within those programs.  I just don't call attention to it.

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:   Good luck and best wishes.  I hope you are all feeling better soon and that the relocation goes well.

[PeterPan]

My ds' SLP did an APD screening tool that flagged ds, but the parts that flagged were low because of his dyslexia.  As far as we *know* he does not have APD.  So, even though this isn't something they'll *diagnose* at newly 6, it's certainly something you at least tentatively want to *try* to sort out.  What I did was take him to a university with a strong APD clinic.  They did a regular hearing eval and a *bit* of the SCAN3 screening portion.  They couldn't do the whole thing, but they did a dab.  He was newly 6 at that point.  I'm just thinking by the time you get stuff done, your dd will have crossed the magical 6 line too.  At that point we had eliminated physical hearing problems and the *probability* of APD.  We went to the psych and got the dyslexia diagnosed.

 

That's some pretty serious inattention *or* pretty serious overwhelmed behavior, if she's unable to get through that.  Either way, you're back to wanting that psych eval to get that sorted out.  Could be one, could be both.  I also think that's going to underly your behavior challenges right now with the school work.  If the work is too hard (or there's serious attention), a dc that young is going to react.  They can't really advocate for themselves, so it comes out as behavior.

 

So to me, I'd be backing off on that school work to regain that positive dynamic.  What DOES work?  That's what I would do.  My ds has all three SLDs (math, reading, writing), so it's pretty hard to have school NOT be hard.   ;)  We put a LOT of effort into that, having the tasks be within reach.  And if that means we play a lot of games and do K'nex and use games for math and do dot to dots, fine.  So to me, until you have those evals, I'd just get back to what had been working till you ramped up with things that can't work.  Once you have the evals, you'll have better info.  

 

Yes, a 5 yo should be able to pass the Barton pre-test.  Technically the Barton pretest is to determine whether they have the foundational phonemic awareness and working memory to go into ANY OG-based program.  So really to say she failed the Barton pre-test so I'll do AAR doesn't make sense.  Did you do AAR pre?  How did that go?  AAR pre was miserable for my ds.  It's really an excellent program (love the Ziggy puppet and the games!), but the tasks just were not within reach for him.  He didn't really make progress till we started LIPS.  

 

If you think the potential ADHD is affecting her ability to do the pre-test and that it's *not* so much a phonological processing problem, you could conceivably decide to treat that first.  You could go to your ped, get the diagnosis, start meds, THEN go to the psych later to get the SLDs diagnosed.  That would be a route.  I wouldn't skip the evals, because you appear to have more going on.  But nothing says you couldn't switch that order.  That would just be your judgment.  

 

Sorry about the double whammy.   :(  You could start the 8 yo on LIPS just as soon as she has completed her evals (even before you get the results back!) and wait a few weeks or a month or whatever to test your dd.  You could decide to do AAR pre- and work on the attention and impulsivity for your 5 yo and save LIPS until after evals at newly 6.  Or maybe a psych would see her earlier.  I'm just saying she's so close to 6, you could wait the extra month and be there.  So if you wait for LIPS for her until after that eval, that gives you a bit of a space.  By that time your older will have moved on into Barton, and you'll be a veteran, doing this in your sleep.   :D

Edited February 7, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Joyful Journeys]

Thank you!

 

She enjoys c rods with math. I can pretty much always get her to do an activity from education unboxed. She went through a stint where she wanted to read with me all the time and seemed to be blending fabulously. It just stopped completely. We haven't done AAR pre, just some phonogram work from a workbook and usborne readers. I thought maybe something scripted and open and go for me would help and there's some hands on stuff? But I can't imagine her wanting anything to do with flash cards for more than 5 minutes. She loves to play Teach Your Monster to Read, she's obsessed with games and tech, so I could just have her do that as much as she wants.

 

I would like it space out the evals, though she is becoming a bear to deal with. The university does APD evals on a sliding scale so that might help. I'll have to research what's available where we are moving though it would be easy to drive back here for that in a couple months. Then maybe do the pysch side in the summer or whenever we can get in. She wants to quit dance, hates when friends come over ("too noisy"), said she doesn't want to leave the house to "stay safe" and can't fall asleep at night anymore. I thought it was a growth spurt but t seems to be all connected to inattention, being overwhelmed etc.

 

I've got DS who is almost 3 in speech too and my husband is just like, wow, what are the odds 3 of 4 kids all have issues? Genetics baby..thems the breaks lol. Youngest is only 6 months so the jury is still out :P

Edited February 7, 2016 by Joyful Journeys

[Joyful Journeys]

I just reread your post and you mentioned meds. I hadn't even thought that might be needed. But if she can't focus for a 10 minute assessment, wow. She is just generally a great kid, but as she reveals more of what she might be struggling with, I guess we'll have to take that possibility seriously.

[PeterPan]

Well it's something you can read about.  I have two kids with ADHD diagnoses.  My ds has a bunch more labels on top.  My dd just has the ADHD and then she has some auditory processing issues (figure-ground) as a *weakness* but not enough to be clinical.  For her, she craves the quiet and the retreats, like what your dd is describing.  I've heard discussion from an audiologist that meds *can* affect that milder level of APD by giving a boost to the processing speed.  In fact, I think geodob called APD a form of auditory inattention.

 

But i'm not going to say you HAVE to or OUGHT to, because my own kids aren't on them.  It's a choice we could make and haven't.  But I think it's something that can be on the table as part of a look at all the options, kwim?  ADHD is comorbid with dyslexia 60% of the time.  I think most kids with APD get an ADHD label.  They're not going to diagnose that APD until age 7 if it's going on, so you need some help NOW.  I was just kind of problem solving with you.

[Joyful Journeys]

Oh no I didn't take it that way at all! My mom was diagnosed with add as an adult. I was talking to her yesterday about DD5 and she mentioned meds too. My immediate reaction was what? Of course not, she's 5! But she tried to tell me as someone who wants to remember things and focus and can't, I shouldn't rule it out, that it could really help her. It's what made me ask about expectations with this test. She should be able to do it at her age, it's not asking too much of an NT kindy kid. I knew going into it there was little chance she could do it but hoped for the best. I'll likely try diet changes and other approaches first since we are home and can accommodate her quite a bit, but still, it's just tough to accept that meds are even on the table.

[PeterPan]

I don't know.  I think diet helps some kids.  We already eat organic, lots of salad, blah blah.  My kids are still ADHD and more.  ;)  Meds are the kind of question you answer after you figure out what's going on.  Unfortunately, they won't eval that APD completely until 7.  Is she having issues with background noise?  And have you had her for an OT eval?  The OT eval, psych, a basic audiology workup, these are things you could get done now.  That way you're not just watching the train wreck.

 

My kids aren't on meds, but we do a lot of other things.  And there are pros and cons to that.  My dd took the ACT Saturday, and she had coffee Friday and Saturday.  She KNOWS it makes a big difference for her.  We'll see, but it can be a really, really big difference.  and some of these meds are 4 hour doses with a super short half-life, meaning they leave your system quickly.  The amount of things we've had to do *because* they aren't on meds is astonishing.  It's not like it's like oh yeah, it some salad they're just magical to work with.  My dd regularly has these "Mary Poppins" days where the wind blows and she just can't focus and work.  It's awful.  There's just no reason for that.  Me, I can be objective looking at someone *else's* situation and say it makes sense to take them.  And it's something we've been discussing regularly.  

 

I think sometimes it's not the meds.  It's more the shock of wow my dc has some SN.  It's this whole new cruise when you thought you were on a DIFFERENT cruise.  There's a poem about that, Welcome to Holland, I think.  You can google and read it.  It took me a *year* to accept after someone suggested ADHD about my dd.  You don't meet her and go wow, there's an ADHD dc.  But it's really challenging to work with.  It's exaserbated by everything being so one-on-one in homeschooling.  There's no where to hide and say I'm having a bad day, kwim?  There's this expectation of A work, not Cs, no skirting by.  And we may have had a really romantic picture of what homeschooling would be like and then we get THIS.  And you're getting it times 2 or 3 or 4.  And that's rough.  

 

So I think it's ok to take your time to get used to ideas and read.  But evals help that.  That way you're not worried about something that isn't even the issue or the preferred treatment or whatever.  

[Joyful Journeys]

She went through the PS evals at 3. I'm not sure what all they did honestly. Back then she had terrible trouble with syntax, answering what was asked, she stuttered in a way when she would start a statement "because, because..." Etc. She stopped doing that halting speech for a long time and now it's back. It does very much feel like a train wreck coming, but I feel so helpless to stop it. I'll have to see if we can go through the PS again with her, as I know we can't afford private help for everyone.

 

We eat crap lol. So I certainly want to do whatever clean eating changes I can do so that we're not exacerbating the problem. I know it's not a cure for sure. They were willing to do her APD eval at 6! I'm cool with waiting though if it'll be more accurate. She tells me it's too noisy when friends come over but I don't know if that is because she can't follow the stream of play they are doing so she retreats or of it's really the noise. She doesn't complain in busy places, so I'm not sure how to gauge that.

 

And yes my dream of Latin and teatime and all that is out the window. Stinks. But I'm happy I'm in a position to help them. Dd8 has anxiety still from her public school K experience, I'd hate to scar another kid getting lost in the shuffle.

[PeterPan]

Sometimes that stuttering is processing speed.  Like her brain and her mouth just aren't in sync.  You can google it for strategies.  Low processing speed is really common with ADHD.

 

They who for the APD eval?  A private audiologist or the ps SLP using a form?  Not the SCAN3?  I don't think the SCAN3 is normed for that young.  Our SLP ran a different tool on ds, but the half he flagged was all stuff you'd fail with dyslexia.  But yes, I think that's really indicative when they're struggling with that noise.  Some of that can be sensory.  I think I said this, but my dd is there just subclinical.  You can try to make her a quiet retreat and give her time to be quiet after going noisy places.  My dd wears noise-canceling earbuds and works in a quiet office.  I agree you don't want it to be that the other kids can't have their friends over, but a quiet retreat and some strategies can help.  They make noise canceling headphones that would be easy to use on a young child to cut down on that noise during that retreat time.  

[Mom28GreatKids]

Not to hijack, but can a person with APD be an auditory learner? I need ADP 101. Thanks. Back to the original thread. :-)

[PeterPan]

Not to hijack, but can a person with APD be an auditory learner? I need ADP 101. Thanks. Back to the original thread. :-)

Dunno.  Someone else will have to speak to that.  I know you can get funky things though.  Like, if you believe some of the authors, most of the kids in this alphabet soup *should* be VSL.  But if you have a kid who, by brain structure, *should* have been VSL but the dc has developmental vision problems, that could very much glitch it!  What I saw with my dd is that she had demonstrated her VSL strengths as a child, but it was after VT that they came out really, really strongly.

 

So, I have no clue for APD kids.  Weird things happen.  I don't think it's fixed in stone either, not if you do some therapies.

[Joyful Journeys]

Sometimes that stuttering is processing speed. Like her brain and her mouth just aren't in sync. You can google it for strategies. Low processing speed is really common with ADHD.

 

They who for the APD eval? A private audiologist or the ps SLP using a form? Not the SCAN3? I don't think the SCAN3 is normed for that young. Our SLP ran a different tool on ds, but the half he flagged was all stuff you'd fail with dyslexia. But yes, I think that's really indicative when they're struggling with that noise. Some of that can be sensory. I think I said this, but my dd is there just subclinical. You can try to make her a quiet retreat and give her time to be quiet after going noisy places. My dd wears noise-canceling earbuds and works in a quiet office. I agree you don't want it to be that the other kids can't have their friends over, but a quiet retreat and some strategies can help. They make noise canceling headphones that would be easy to use on a young child to cut down on that noise during that retreat time.

They, is the speech and hearing center at the university here. The audiologist said that she had to be at least 6 to do the APD eval. So I figured I'd get her paperwork and stuff in now and then just schedule it for later in the spring. I'm not sure what test they run.

[PeterPan]

Well go for it, mercy!  :)