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Help me decide what to do with my lemon car, please.


TianXiaXueXiao
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Lemon Car Underwater Loan  

35 members have voted

  1. 1. What would you do?

    • Borrow $5000 to make the repairs
      0
    • Drive the car until it stops running and keep paying the loan while using public transit which will take a long time for most commutes
      5
    • Trade the car in NOW and hope to get the bluebook trade-in value, knowing you will still be paying additional $4k for the old car with the new car loan
      22
    • Put the car on the market and hope to get enough to pay off the loan even with total transparency regarding transmission issues
      6
    • Other-Please describe
      2


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Ok, Hive, I could use some of your wisdom.

 

We are a single car family with a Honda Odyssey. Over the last month, everything that can go wrong with our car has started going wrong. We spent $2400 over the past 4 weeks to repair failing sliding doors and a misfiring engine. My car has been riding rough for about a year and having trouble with down-shifting. Apparently our transmission is failing and will cost about $4000 to get a new re-built one. We also have a bad axle boot and our A/C system has been disabled due to a clog in the system. It will cost us $5000 to repair all of these things. We owe $8000 which is roughly what the KBB value is for retail. Trade-in value is about $4k. In order to afford the repairs, we would have to take out a $5000 loan which would mean we would really owe $13000 for a car that's worth $8000 max. My husband and I are trying to determine the best course of action. We need a car and we live in a rural area but dh works in the city and all of our activities are in the city. Public transportation is an option but it means adding 45 min. to an hour for any trip we would use the car for. What would you do?

 

Thanks in advance!

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trade in and get new one if you can afford it--an added 4k on a newer car seems more sensible to me than an extra loan for 5k on the older, but maybe you cannot swing that right now;  otherwise sell with transparency, pay off loan to extent possible and get newer/better used one, new one,  use public transport only if you must, depending on your needs and what you can afford. But being in rural area, I think having a car, if possible, nowadays, makes sense.  Maybe also run figures on selling it and leasing a less expensive model for a few years.

 

error correction: how many miles on it? And any reason you know of for it to be having troubles?

Edited by Pen
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I don't know how old your odyssey is, but several different year models had a recall for transmission work. Have you looked to see if any of the work that is needed might be under a recall?

 

There are no open recalls for my year Odyssey but apparently Honda Corp will offer some financial assistance on a case-by-case basis for getting a rebuilt transmission at a dealership. The problem with this is that one never knows if Honda will help before going for the repair.

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I'd buy a new Honda CRV if you could possibly swing it, and trade in your present car.

 

If they start you at a high interest rate, tell them you want to see what your bank will offer you instead (for a loan).  Usually, if you have had a good relationship with your bank and for enough time, they'll give you a lower interest rate.  Get it as low as you can, and then bring that amount back to the dealership and they'll usually try and match it by going even lower.

 

You can negotiate even more by asking them to throw in the all-weather floor mats or something.

 

Having a nice car that you can trust all the time will be an amazing relief for you!  Believe me, I know.   :)

 

 

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I maybe should add that I have been having trouble with automatic transmission rough shifting in my 20+ year old Honda... it has been helping some to warm the engine well before starting out. The car did not need that when it was younger. We also live in a rural area, and I think that the terrain, mud and muck and so on may add to troubles.

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if you do the repairs - how many miles are you likely to get out of it?  how many miles do you put on a car in a year?  how long would it take you to pay off that $13K that you would owe on this car?

 

if you were to take it as a loss (and since you still owe on it, it would be a loss), how much could you put into a newer and more reliable car?

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According to KBB in our area, Fair Condition Trade-In Value is $4K.

 

What is considered fair condition?

 

Fair trade value of my car was $1000.  They gave me $100.  There were too many things wrong with it.  Dealers give you what they want to give you and not necessarily what is fair.

 

I was just happy not to have to pay to get rid of it. 

Sounds like you got a lousy deal though!

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What is considered fair condition?

 

Fair trade value of my car was $1000.  They gave me $100.  There were too many things wrong with it.  Dealers give you what they want to give you and not necessarily what is fair.

 

I was just happy not to have to pay to get rid of it. 

Sounds like you got a lousy deal though!

 

I traded in a Chevy and got the fair trade-in value of $3K at that time and it had more problems than this car and was 20 years old, so I figure I can get the fair trade-in value on this car.

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I'd find a replacement transmission and install it myself.  I'd also do the axle boot.  I'd try to see if I could figure out fixing the AC, but I might just live with it.

 

If there were any chance you could sell it for payoff that would be optimal.  But for sure you won't get payoff as a trade in..  Nor will you get the KBB selling it directly.  You also aren't going to get more than about $4K from a direct sale, because of it's issues.

 

I'm so sorry you are going through this.  It sucks.

 

ETA: If I were going to take out a $5k loan, it would be to buy a cheap 2nd car, so that you aren't so dependent on the 1 car.  I lived for years in a rural area with just 1 car.  It sucks.

Edited by TammyS
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Thanks everyone. We are coming up with a 2 step plan. Plan A is to have all open recalls addressed on the vehicle and get a transmission service done next week. If the servicing buys us more time, we will take it. If not, plan B is to trade it in.

 

Oh, and get some of this, if you are having shudder.  Cheap and works in about 90% of cases: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002JMLQU?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=ox_sc_act_title_2&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

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According to KBB in our area, Fair Condition Trade-In Value is $4K.

 

If it has trans., a/c, and boot issues...it's not in fair condition, it's in poor condition.  Not to be mean, but those are 2 major, and 1 moderate repair.  That's poor condition.

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I'd borrow as little as possible to get a driveable car that fits us, park the Odyssey except as an emergency back-up, and pay both vehicles off ASAP. Then I'd sell the Odyssey as soon as it was paid for, and start saving for something better than its replacement.

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I once had a coworker who needed a car right away for similar reasons - hers fell apart and wasn't worth fixing -  and her budget was $4K.   I found a for sale add for a small economy-type basic model car that was 8 yo but had very low mileage because it had been owned by one person who hardly ever drove.  It was $4000.  She checked it all out, bought it, and was still driving it trouble-free several years later when I left the job.  I would look for a deal like this and then either honestly sell or donate the car with all the issues. 

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The axle boots may be a Honda issue. I just had mine replaced on an '11 Odyssey for a "known issue" or some such. We've also had a ton of transmission issues and had to have it reprogrammed. Still fighting for them to cover that. There was an open service bulletin (but not a publicized recall to the public) out on the transmission issue for several times that we took it in for service at the dealership when it would've been covered under warranty, and we have always complained that the transmission doesn't shift smoothly every.single.time. I'm really not fond of Honda currently. They're on My List. Check the forums on odyclub.com for your van to see if there's something out there that could be covered.

Edited by zoobie
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We are a single-car family who had the transmission crap out on our '03 Ford Focus a couple years ago, so I feel your pain.  :grouphug:  With that said, I really wouldn't expect to get 4k for it. Any dealer who takes it for a trade-in is going to realize the transmission is about to go, and there's not much difference between a vehicle with a dead transmission and an about-to-be-dead transmission. With our Focus, we managed to get a hundred bucks for it from a guy who used it for parts. Our car was pretty crappy and I'm sure you'll be able to get quite a bit more for your vehicle, but I wouldn't make a decision expecting to get 4k for it. I would probably shoot for 1k and be happily surprised for anything over that, to be honest.

 

I looked online, and most of the '06 Odysseys look to be going for between 4k and 7k, depending on how many miles they have. Deduct the cost of repairs and you'll get a more accurate idea of what you'll be able to get for it.

 

ETA: Oh, and be careful if you drive it until it dies. I did that with my Focus, and I ended up stranded at the side of a busy intersection without enough money for a tow truck. A lovely, kind police officer whose car had a push bar on the front had to push my car into a nearby parking lot. Dd thought it was great fun, but it was pretty embarrassing for me.

Edited by Mergath
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If you decide to keep it, consider shopping more for that transmission repair. We got a rebuilt one for our '03 Odyssey for under $3000. We did not have it done by a dealership.

 

Yes! Never get work done at the stealership, unless is a recall and free.

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Oh, and get some of this, if you are having shudder.  Cheap and works in about 90% of cases: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002JMLQU?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=ox_sc_act_title_2&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

 

Not OP, but could maybe have an overlapping type problem:

 

Could you please describe what shudder is? I looked it up, but am not sure if it does or does not fit what my 20+ year old car has been doing.. In my car's case it does it more when A/C runs which made me think maybe an alternator problem, but two mechanics have said alternator is fine. One mechanic said he thinks it is just age and rust build up and that sort of thing and using it more, not less, would help it.  What seems to happen is in the roughly 30-55 mph range the automatic transmission will seem to be jerky, or similar sometimes when climbing a hill, it seems like the car is shifting to accommodate, but doing it in a jerky way. If it has "shudder" and that stuff you linked might help, I'd like to try it. Warming the car up for 5 minutes, longer if the outdoor temperature is cold or it hasn't been driven for awhile seems to stop the problem 99%+ of the time, whatever it is.

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My car stutters when it goes into eco mode and between 2nd and 3rd gear. The mechanic I spoke with yesterday said it can happen as a result of low transmission fluids, so I'm willing to pay for a servicing to see if that addresses the issue. Maybe just wishful thinking but it's cheaper than the alternatives at this point.

Edited by TianXiaXueXiao
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Not OP, but could maybe have an overlapping type problem:

 

Could you please describe what shudder is? I looked it up, but am not sure if it does or does not fit what my 20+ year old car has been doing.. In my car's case it does it more when A/C runs which made me think maybe an alternator problem, but two mechanics have said alternator is fine. One mechanic said he thinks it is just age and rust build up and that sort of thing and using it more, not less, would help it.  What seems to happen is in the roughly 30-55 mph range the automatic transmission will seem to be jerky, or similar sometimes when climbing a hill, it seems like the car is shifting to accommodate, but doing it in a jerky way. If it has "shudder" and that stuff you linked might help, I'd like to try it. Warming the car up for 5 minutes, longer if the outdoor temperature is cold or it hasn't been driven for awhile seems to stop the problem 99%+ of the time, whatever it is.

 

What you have sounds like "lock up shudder".   If you are handy and want to look into it, here's a few things to look at that may help, if one is the culprit:

 

1. What is the level and quality of your trans fluid? You can check your trans fluid just like oil (check your vehicles specs for whether it's stick is designed to be checked with engine hot or cold, I usually do both, but you want to know what it's "supposed" to look like).  If your fluid is low, you have a leak somewhere.  Top up your fluid, that may solve your problem.  Because your car is so old, I would be inclinded to live with a slow leak and just keep topping it up. 

 

How does the fluid look?  It should be red and clear.  If it's dark or muddy looking, or looks like engine oil, it needs to be changed.  This is an easy job to do, if you are able to get under your car (lots of Youtube videos to help you out).  If you don't want to do it yourself, it will cost about $75 to have done.  Keeping the fluid clean is important because and automatic transmission is a giant mass of metal on metal moving parts, and the fluid swishes fine metal shavings out of the way and deposits them into the pan (where there is a magnet that they grab onto until the next fluid change).

 

2. If this problem started after a fluid change, particularly if they used a synthetic fluid because it's supposed to be "better" (and in some ways it is), get the Shudder Stop and put in there.  Ironically, the new fluids are so slippery that they actually don't work as well and can cause some slippage.  Shudder Stop can give the fluid a bit more viscosity and "grab".

 

3. Because of the speeds you describe this happening at (and that warming the engine seems to help, and the AC connection) there is a chance that the problem is not your transmission at all, but that your transmission misbehaving is a symptom.  It's possible that the problem is in your spark plugs or plug coils.  If the spark plugs and/or a coil are bad, they will fail to deliver power properly to your transmission.  The transmission, which is controlled by a computer, gets confused and can't decide whether or not to go into your highest gear. You can do a test, that might tell you if this is an issue, by going out with your car and when it starts to shudder (or at the speeds that it normally would) give it more gas to try to push it through the shudder.  If it stops shuddering and seems to run normally, then I would definitely pull the plugs and have a look at them and the coils (do not, whatever you do, buy coils from the stealership, it will run you gobs more money than necessary...shop your autoparts stores and amazon).  If the engine seems to run loud and you can hear a lot of power (without a corresponding increase in speed...it will sound like it would if you were to sit in your driveway and rev the engine without putting the car in gear) and/or the RPMs seem to get inappropriately high for your speed, then the problem is likely with the transmission.   Again, you can try the Shudder Stop, because it definitely won't hurt anything and a lot of people have success with it, and $6 is a gamble worth taking (IMO) on an older vehicle. 

 

 

If you do want to get a mechanic to look at it, take it to a transmission shop, not a generic mechanic.  Trans shops can (when possible) repair a transmission or rule out that the transmission is the problem.  Again, if you are handy, you can go online and look at salvage yards (God bless the internet, you can order from junkyards online) and see if you can find a replacement transmission for your vehicle.  I wouldn't spend too much, because the car is old and you're taking a risk.  But for a couple hundred bucks I might do it, if the car seems otherwise ok.  Replacing a whole transmission is not that hard, if you're a bit adventurous (repairing them is a whole other matter, that's a true specialty).

 

Your mechanic was right that old vehicles do not like to just sit.  Sitting allows seals, gaskets, and hoses to get dry.  It allows water vapor to condense and build up in places that it would otherwise get burned off by heat. Try to take it out for at least 15 minutes (or however long it takes for it to get good and hot) every other day. 

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What you have sounds like "lock up shudder".   If you are handy and want to look into it, here's a few things to look at that may help, if one is the culprit:

 

1. What is the level and quality of your trans fluid? You can check your trans fluid just like oil (check your vehicles specs for whether it's stick is designed to be checked with engine hot or cold, I usually do both, but you want to know what it's "supposed" to look like).  If your fluid is low, you have a leak somewhere.  Top up your fluid, that may solve your problem.  Because your car is so old, I would be inclinded to live with a slow leak and just keep topping it up. 

 

How does the fluid look?  It should be red and clear.  If it's dark or muddy looking, or looks like engine oil, it needs to be changed.  This is an easy job to do, if you are able to get under your car (lots of Youtube videos to help you out).  If you don't want to do it yourself, it will cost about $75 to have done.  Keeping the fluid clean is important because and automatic transmission is a giant mass of metal on metal moving parts, and the fluid swishes fine metal shavings out of the way and deposits them into the pan (where there is a magnet that they grab onto until the next fluid change).

 

2. If this problem started after a fluid change, particularly if they used a synthetic fluid because it's supposed to be "better" (and in some ways it is), get the Shudder Stop and put in there.  Ironically, the new fluids are so slippery that they actually don't work as well and can cause some slippage.  Shudder Stop can give the fluid a bit more viscosity and "grab".

 

3. Because of the speeds you describe this happening at (and that warming the engine seems to help, and the AC connection) there is a chance that the problem is not your transmission at all, but that your transmission misbehaving is a symptom.  It's possible that the problem is in your spark plugs or plug coils.  If the spark plugs and/or a coil are bad, they will fail to deliver power properly to your transmission.  The transmission, which is controlled by a computer, gets confused and can't decide whether or not to go into your highest gear. You can do a test, that might tell you if this is an issue, by going out with your car and when it starts to shudder (or at the speeds that it normally would) give it more gas to try to push it through the shudder.  If it stops shuddering and seems to run normally, then I would definitely pull the plugs and have a look at them and the coils (do not, whatever you do, buy coils from the stealership, it will run you gobs more money than necessary...shop your autoparts stores and amazon).  If the engine seems to run loud and you can hear a lot of power (without a corresponding increase in speed...it will sound like it would if you were to sit in your driveway and rev the engine without putting the car in gear) and/or the RPMs seem to get inappropriately high for your speed, then the problem is likely with the transmission.   Again, you can try the Shudder Stop, because it definitely won't hurt anything and a lot of people have success with it, and $6 is a gamble worth taking (IMO) on an older vehicle. 

 

 

If you do want to get a mechanic to look at it, take it to a transmission shop, not a generic mechanic.  Trans shops can (when possible) repair a transmission or rule out that the transmission is the problem.  Again, if you are handy, you can go online and look at salvage yards (God bless the internet, you can order from junkyards online) and see if you can find a replacement transmission for your vehicle.  I wouldn't spend too much, because the car is old and you're taking a risk.  But for a couple hundred bucks I might do it, if the car seems otherwise ok.  Replacing a whole transmission is not that hard, if you're a bit adventurous (repairing them is a whole other matter, that's a true specialty).

 

Your mechanic was right that old vehicles do not like to just sit.  Sitting allows seals, gaskets, and hoses to get dry.  It allows water vapor to condense and build up in places that it would otherwise get burned off by heat. Try to take it out for at least 15 minutes (or however long it takes for it to get good and hot) every other day. 

Thank you!

 

Wow!  How did you learn so much about cars? You seem to be way more knowledgeable than at least one of the  mechanics I spoke with!

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Thank you!

 

Wow!  How did you learn so much about cars? You seem to be way more knowledgeable than at least one of the  mechanics I spoke with!

 

A decent mechanic runs about $75/hr, so I try to do what I can myself.  I spend a lot of time looking online, at service manuals, and Youtube videos.  There is really a lot out there that can help to demystify this stuff (the price of that is that you will spend a lot of time looking at things).  I think it's worth it for all people to have some understanding of their car, just so they don't end up with a target on their back when they walk into the auto shop, and so that they can make good decisions about whether or not to repair a car (for ex., a friend's daughter just spent $3K having her engine rebuilt...the mechanic didn't rip her off, it takes a ton of hours to do that, but for $3K I would have looked at just buying a replacement engine).

 

When considering whether or not to do a job yourself or hire it out, consider: what is the worst that can happen if you mess it up? how much will you need to invest in special tools? does it even make sense to do it yourself (the diy oil change is nuts, you can get a perfectly good oil change at Walmart for the price of fluids....just make sure you don't let them upsell you on unneeded services)?  how many hours will it cost to learn about this and do it (we recently replaced the brake lines in my truck, it cost about $80 in parts and about 40 hours of learning/labor/driving to the autoparts store....it was worth it this time, because that was a $1K job at the shop, but if it had been a $300 I probably wouldn't have done it).

 

It's always worth looking online to see if you can figure something out.  My truck had a odometer display that wasn't working (digital).  We looked on Youtube and found this is a common problem with these trucks at a certain age and were able to fine a repair that required removing the panel to get at the connectors and re-soldering the connectors.  Altogether, it took about 3 hours of learning, doing, and putting back together (the plastic dash panels had to be taken apart and then replaced).  We didn't have to buy any parts or tools (we already had a soldering tool and solder).  The repair worked.  The replacement part would have cost $200, and we still would have had to take the dash apart and back together.  If we paid to have it done, at least an hour of labor.  So, we saved at least $275 on that job. 

 

You can do a lot more than you think you can, if you have patience and are willing to get it wrong sometimes (we have gotten it wrong sometimes, but we've saved far, far more money than our mess ups have caused).  And while there is no rule that you have to do everything yourself (we don't do everything, some jobs are too cheap or require specialized tools that don't make sense to purchase), you can save real money at least looking to see things first.

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