Waldorf and Giftedness, any advice appreciated (UPDATE, SORT OF, POST 54)

[eternalsummer]

I am having a difficult time evaluating our options for school for my DS7 and would appreciate any insight you have about any aspect of the situation.

 

Here is the background: he is reading a few grade levels ahead and his math ability is fairly advanced, though I have not introduced new concepts to him in approx. a year as I didn't want him to get too far ahead of his classmates.  We homeschooled for the second half of K and all of 1st; by the end of 1st he was partway through BA3B (here and there).  His handwriting is poor to the point of maybe being a form of dysgraphia; he doesn't reverse letters or misspell words but it is very slow, illegible, and difficult for him.  He is impulsive, has terrible social skills (doesn't hear "stop" indicators well), and is not good at sitting still and being quiet unless he is reading.  We took him out of K because after 2 months we learned he was missing every recess because he was talking at lunch (their lunch was silent) and was separated all day from the rest of the class in a special chair because after finishing his work (quickly, it was a mainstream K and he was bright) he antagonized other kids.  They were making ADHD meds noises and weighted blanket noises and we just said nah, we'll homeschool.

 

Homeschooling was pretty hard for him because of a lack of social interaction; he's quite extroverted and because we're not religious and also not super liberal, the local homeschool groups were either a poor fit or outright rejected us (as we couldn't make a statement of faith).  

 

So we moved to Colorado Springs, where there are a lot of homeschool day options at local schools-  they go one day a week with other homeschoolers, and the programs vary a lot by school.  We found one at a Waldorf methods charter school that sounded great - I wasn't worried about academics anyway, and they're pretty adamant about letting the kids play outside, interact normally, low levels of screen time (or none), etc.  So we signed up.  After reading the curriculum, which is a pretty great read, both kids (DD10 and DS7) decided they wanted to attend full time.

 

For the most part things went okay for the first half of the year; he said a few times that he had no real friends in the class, but when I told his teacher this she said he was always playing with someone at recess so she wasn't worried.  

 

Fast forward to this month: he has started to be impossible in class (especially classes with other teachers, like music or Spanish).  He is disrespectful and interrupts and makes obnoxious noises.  I had a conference with the teacher and she had some decent ideas for changing the behaviors - she really cares about him, which is a great thing about the school.  I raised a couple of issues I'd heard from DS7:

 

1.  He says the kids hate him, make fun of him, etc.  He is a slow runner and they play tag at recess every day (the boys do) so he says he feels like he has no friends and they always tell him how slow he is.  Her response was that he does play with other kids at recess (building fairy houses with the girls) and she thinks he's deflecting so he doesn't have to accept responsibility for his actions.  Also she says in Waldorf, some bullying is allowed at this age so they develop empathy.  

 

2.  He says he is bored.  She responded by saying, "have you seen his handwriting?!"  I acknowledged that he has a handwriting delay, and she said it affected much of the rest of what they do every day (recorder playing, painting, drawing, knitting, etc.).  She says she knows he's bright but because his handwriting is poor and much of the work is difficult for him she doesn't think he can be bored.  She says what he really likes is to get sent out of class so he can read a book of his choice in the principal's office.  

 

She says that in Waldorf pedagogy, in 2nd grade they want the kids to be bored because they are still supposed to be "asleep" and if the brain develops faster than the body/emotional person (?) it makes the kid unbalanced or something.  They do not offer differentiation at this age, really.

 

For math class, for example (one of the only parts of the day he is naturally good at, as much of the day is fine motor handwork), she will write a story with pictures on the board about a kid who walks around picking up rocks and then dropping rocks, and they all go through the story together to figure out how many rocks she has at the end.  Because it is a whole class kind of curriculum there's not much room for DS7 to do anything but be bored and stay quiet if he can (he can't).

 

 

So the long and the short of it is: DS7 wants to stay in the school.  He likes his teacher and wants these kids to like him.  I am willing to support him in this but I am wary about encouraging him to invest so much in a school and environment that is pretty clearly not great for him academically and maybe not even socially.  

 

I told him about another option for next year, a gifted charter down the street with a robotics team and lego classes after school.  He said he couldn't go there because he is not gifted.  I told him of course he is gifted; he said no, his form drawings are terrible and he can't do the rest of it well either; he said he was only good at reading and math, and what do they matter?  The school has led him to believe that intellectual skills are not as valuable as handwork skills (at this age, anyway), which makes me nervous.

 

 

If you've even read any of this, what do you think?  Have I just drunk too much of the koolaid?  The school is great for DD10; they do differentiate a bit by 5th grade and she loves the rest of it (art and music and gardening and knitting).

 

 

Edited September 13, 2016 by ananemone

[HomeAgain]

Some thoughts....

 

If his handwriting is terrible, think of the handwork as remedial exercises.  Is it bad that he doesn't like the remedial exercises that will eventually help him write better?  If I didn't like them, I'd try to get out of them, too.

 

Second, you have got to give him a way to shine.  Do you have a stand-alone robotics club (like through 4-H or the Y), or a social activity available he can excel at?  Regardless of where he goes next year, it may open his eyes a bit to see what there is available and how he is worthy.

[bibiche]

Have you had him evaluated for motor skills? A lot of his frustration could be stemming from that.

[eternalsummer]

We haven't had him evaluated; at home we did some remediation (well, a lot, actually) and at school his teacher says she thinks he's just immature (her words) and will catch up eventually.  She is pretty bright so I'm sure she's not confusing laborious output for a lack of need/desire for higher-level input, but that is basically what she said to me, so maybe it is part of the educational philosphy?

 

I will probably enter him in the after school lego class at the gifted charter whether or not he switches schools (the class is held there but is open to all); robotics is a good idea.  He is better at non-running large motor sports (baseball, for instance) and we'll do that again this summer.

 

One of the things I like about the school (in theory) is that the focus on handwork should help his handwriting, although we've seen no progress so far.  I don't know that he's particularly motivated, as he's never been super into art or knitting/handwork (and the art they do isn't creative exactly - they all do the same exact painting, which is a series of watercolor circles or lines or whatever). 

[Dmmetler]

Waldorf requires a lot of fine motor early and delays formal academics, more than almost any other philosophy. It's a lovely way to approach early childhood, but it's definitely hard to move in mid-stream, especially for a kid who is academically advanced who isn't advanced on motor skills.

 

At his age, it really depends on what you want out of school. If he's comfortable working on everything but academics, and can handle being bored during academics, and working on those areas at home, it might be a good fit. If you want him to be challenged academically, almost any other philosophy will be a better fit.

[eternalsummer]

I don't personally care if he is challenged academically; he's 7 and in that aspect I'm fine with the Waldorf philosophy.  DS, on the other had, is kind of a difficult kid when he is not bored.  When he is bored he is impossible, and they are pretty clearly unwilling to address the possibility that he is bored until he has stopped being impossible.  Maybe if he really wants to stay he will shape up and be willing to endure the boredom to stay with the group?  Maybe I should just let him make the call and not influence him in any direction.

 

I am worried that I made a mistake in attaching him to this school as it seems like it might be a poor fit not just now but until he graduates after 8th.  He has a lot of behavior issues to work through (we have a support meeting coming up with all his teachers, principal, etc. to talk about his behavior) and I don't know whether it is worth it for a school and environment that may never suit him.

 

On the other hand, they are focused on the things I can't do at home - a sense of social belonging and responsibility, awe and inspiration, belonging to a stable group (the teacher and class stay together though all 8 years).  Also, he is attached to them - he wants the kids to like him - and they are generally true believers (even in a public charter) and tell me that this is his best and maybe only chance at school.

 

 

Bah, why did I not think this through 9 months ago?

 

 

 

[MinivanMom]

This school sounds like a very poor fit for your son's needs and abilities. Using Waldorf handwork as a way to remediate his fine motor delays isn't necessarily a bad idea, but I would be very hesitant to expect a child with fine motor delays to spend his entire day working on the one skill he finds most frustrating. When does he have a chance to do the things he loves? Where does he have an opportunity to display his mastery of academics and feel good about his accomplishments? I would be afraid that continuing in this school would do significant damage to his self-esteem and to his feelings toward school.

 

I have known quite a few families who attend our local (& highly-renowned) Waldorf school and have a friend who is now teaching there. Waldorf can be a warm, nurturing environment for children and families who are the right fit. However, there is a lot of rigidity in the Waldorf philosophy and in the Waldorf system of educating. My observation has been that when it's not a good fit, there is not much willingness to change the system in order to accommodate the needs of the individual child. 

 

I would be very concerned about the teacher's comments regarding bullying, her negative attitude about his desire to read, and her focus on his handwriting. There seem to be a lot of red flags here. 

[regentrude]

I have not found the Waldorf philosophy to be a good fit for gifted students. I love Waldorf for little kids, but the anti academic sentiment with the very rigid assumptions about age and development do not make this a good environment for an academically gifted student who does not fit the typical pattern. There is no differentiation, and the very delayed reading instruction etc can be extremely frustrating for an accelerated learner. I do not think it is beneficial for en elementary age child to be told that his interests are 'wrong".

My gifted kids would have gone nuts in a  Waldorf environment.

ETA: If he has fine motor delays, you can easily incorporate activities into his day that strengthen these skills without putting him into an environment that is fixated on drawing and crafting.

And a teacher who cannot imagine your son to be bored, just because he struggles with fine motor skills??? Sorry lady, but he can most definitely be bored out of his skull.

Edited February 5, 2016 by regentrude

[eternalsummer]

I really really appreciate all of your thoughts; it's hard to see from an outside perspective because all I get right now is either a 7 year old's report (not 100% reliable) or the school's report.  They're really genuinely kind, and they want the kids to have happy childhoods, but I think many of them believe sincerely that the only way to have a happy childhood is to have a Waldorf one.  I am pretty impressionable so it is not that easy for me to reject, especially as it is the kind of childhood/school I would personally have liked (I think).  

 

When she said the bit about his not being bored because of poor handwriting, and that at age 7 they were supposed to still be "asleep" so boredom was a good thing, it raised red flags for me too.  I wasn't sure if my concerns were defensiveness or valid, though, kwim?

 

My conundrum now is that while I can get him into the gifted charter next year (it is this one: http://www.academyacl.org/)- not ideal but perhaps a better fit - he has to either stick it out at his current school the rest of the year or be homeschooled. 

 

I am so fine with homeschooling.  He's made no progress academically (except in independent reading) since we stopped homeschooling last spring/summer, but I am afraid that withdrawing him may be somewhat traumatic, as the class is really encouraged to be like a family and he is pretty attached.  The boys don't like him and he has no actual friends (no birthday party invites, no playing after class, etc.) but he wants them to like him and he still wants to try to improve his behavior at the school.  

 

[eternalsummer]

Alternatively I could press them at the support meeting to consider differentiation or accommodation, although it is a meeting about disrupting the class and refusing to obey the teachers, which they insist has nothing to do with either the bullying situation or the boredom situation.

 

And they may be right, I have no idea.

[kiwik]

I am struggling with a moving issue too.

 

In NZ waldorf is called Steiner. I have a couple of relatives who are Steiner Kindy teachers. They essentially veiw kids as incompetent and seem to.make no allowance for the fact that gifted kids have a mental age above their birth age. It always sounds lovely and for a kids high average and down it probably is. They are not bored just drifting contentedly. Not being over stimulated though is not the same as being painfully bored to the point of tears or misbehavoir.

 

And saying he can't be bored because he struggles with the physical aspects of writing is pretty silly

Edited February 5, 2016 by kiwik

[SeaConquest]

Many Waldorf schools are well-known for their bullying. With a bit of Googling, you will find Waldorf support/recovery groups because of just these types of issues.

 

I agree with others -- delayed academics are fine for some (most?) kids, but Waldorf is a poor fit for academically-motivated gifted children. I would move him to the other charter school.

Edited February 5, 2016 by SeaConquest

[eternalsummer]

Yes, she said very clearly to me that they wanted to suppress his intellectual growth until his physical and emotional development caught up.  It made sense at the time, I don't know why.

 

 

Moving schools is soooo hard.  I moved almost every year as a kid and had some great schools and some bad ones, and it was hard for me to move, so I am sensitive to the benefit of just sticking it out.

[eternalsummer]

The bullying is weird; I looked it up when she mentioned it.

 

He got in 2 or 3 fights (physical, nothing too serious) at the beginning of the year but they adopted a zero tolerance policy and he cut it right out.  At the time he said the kids were antagonizing him; I was okay with the no-fighting rule but if verbal aggression is okay but not physical aggression that is kind of strange to me. 

[regentrude]

Yes, she said very clearly to me that they wanted to suppress his intellectual growth until his physical and emotional development caught up. 

Which is exactly why I consider Waldorf as detrimental for gifted students.

[eternalsummer]

He told me he wasn't gifted because his handwriting was poor; I asked him if he had no hands at all would he be unable to read and think and do math?  That threw him :)

 

Just picked him up from school; teacher said he had a terrible day; he said it was good and that he wanted to stay there "because it is a good school."  (he has no personal positives to offer, ever, just theoretical ones - "the kids might like me someday" or abstract ones "it is a good school.")  We'll see.

[wendyroo]

You said there was a homeschool day program at the Waldorf school where your DS could attend one day a week and be homeschooled the other days...would that still be an option?

 

In an area with that many homeschoolers, I'm betting you could find non-academic group things to do on many other days as well.

 

In your shoes, I would probably have him go to the Waldorf school one day a week (as long as that is still something he wants to do).  The other days I would work with him a little on math and handwriting, perhaps a few low-stress handicrafts and let him read up a storm.  I would round out the week with a trip or two to the library, some chores around the house and whatever homeschool park days, museum trips, math circles, nature hikes, board game groups, etc you could find.

 

Wendy

[eternalsummer]

If we do the one day a week program we will probably do one at another school; I don't know that at this point we won't have mostly burned our bridges here if we take him out.  There are a ton of one-day-a-week options - a STEM option, an outdoor ed option (mountains and whatnot), a classical option, and on and on.  There are some decent homeschool groups, though I am terrible at finding that kind of stuff (seems like it spreads better through word of mouth than on the internet).

 

He is a very socially-inclined kid and essentially likes school even though he is bored, frustrated, obnoxious to the point of being sent out of class daily, and has no friends.

 

I am angsting.

[wendyroo]

He is a very socially-inclined kid and essentially likes school even though he is bored, frustrated, obnoxious to the point of being sent out of class daily, and has no friends.

 

I have an almost 7 year old boy who was "bored, frustrated, obnoxious to the point of being sent out of class daily, and [had] no friends" in preschool.  I pulled him out while he still liked school in theory, because I was convinced if I left him in he would grow to dread it and by association learning in general.

 

Wendy

[Tanaqui]

Your child has very limited experiences. This is because he is a child. If he says he likes school, but his behavior - acting out due to being bored, being frustrated, having no friends - doesn't show it then you need to pull rank and assume his actions speak a lot louder than words.

 

Many children will report that their school is a "good school", but without any basis of comparison they're just saying it. And you know what? If you pull him out now and homeschool him, or stick in him public school until you get him in the charter next year, then in ten years he'll barely remember his stint in Waldorf.

 

As far as bullying goes, this is such a common complaint with people who have left Waldorf education that, frankly, I'll take your kid's word over the school's every day. It's amazingly consistent from school to school, the complaints of bullying.

[SeaConquest]

I have an almost 7 year old boy who was "bored, frustrated, obnoxious to the point of being sent out of class daily, and [had] no friends" in preschool.  I pulled him out while he still liked school in theory, because I was convinced if I left him in he would grow to dread it and by association learning in general.

 

Wendy

 

Yep. Exactly this, My kid loved school, even when being sent to the director's office regularly. But, that only lasts so long.

[daijobu]

It sounds like you may need to play the "mom knows best" card and pull him out against his wishes, though I don't envy you.  

 

Weirdly, where I am, Waldorf is HUGE among homeschoolers, so I almost instinctively associate Waldorf with homeschooling in contrast to regular school.  However, the Waldorfy homeschoolers here are generally not very rigid and apply it in a way that works for their kids, taking what works and leaving the rest behind.  

 

You can still knit at home, and also do advanced math.  Good luck.  

[Black-eyed Suzan]

DS on the other had, is kind of a difficult kid when he is not bored.  When he is bored he is impossible, and they are pretty clearly unwilling to address the possibility that he is bored until he has stopped being impossible.

 

I am worried that I made a mistake in attaching him to this school as it seems like it might be a poor fit not just now but until he graduates after 8th.

 

 

Bah, why did I not think this through 9 months ago?

For some reason bolding is not working on my computer, but these are the sentences that really stuck out to me. I think no matter what your son thinks now, he needs to exit that environment so he can stop being bored and having behavior problems and start to see his strengths as well as his weaknesses.

 

FWIW, my older son sounds similar to yours, and he would have never thrived in an environment that stressed lots of fine motor crafts/projects over academics.

 

Please don't beat yourself up over making a mistake; it's just part of parenting! We try what we think is best, then make changes if/when things don't work as we imagined.

[SanDiegoMom]

When my son was seven, he loved math puzzles, strategic board games, word games and puzzles, and he hated coloring and building anything that required patience and fine motor skills. If his passions and interests were denied and his weaknesses celebrated as the most important, he would grow up thinking he was a failure. Instead he is proud of himself and is slowly getting better at handicrafts.

 

Ideology can be dangerous as we don't all fit one mold! Even if it seems like a more attractive one then the public schools offer!

[SparklyUnicorn]

The teacher's responses might be in line with Waldorf pedagogy, but some of her responses are pretty terrible. 

 

Saying someone can't be bored or more advanced intellectually because of a physical limitation is pretty ridiculous.  I would have walked out of the place after that comment alone. 

 

I read a bit about Waldorf years ago when wondering about options for my quirky kid.  I felt like I was reading about some weird dystopian cult.  I know there are plenty of Waldorf schools and groups that are not about that (before anyone flips out over this comment). 

 

Assuming the best about the place, it really does not sound like a good fit. 

[Tanaqui]

I felt like I was reading about some weird dystopian cult.

 

Cult is a word you hear sometimes from people who left Waldorf schools. Again, not all of them will say this and there are plenty of people who don't have anything LIKE that experience, but it's like the bullying thing - you don't hear about people leaving Montessori schools (to pick a random example) saying "it was like a cult", do you? But you hear it over and over again with people unhappy with Waldorf schools. Any one school can have a problem with bullying, or teaching, or whatever, but you don't expect all negative stories about any other form of education to sound so much alike.

[Guest]

Having experience in this area, I can honestly say Waldorf and gifted kids do NOT mix. Pull him out now. He is 7. You make the decisions, not him.

My gifted son had many of the same behaviors and fine motor skill delays as yours. We started homeschooling meeting him at his intellectual level and surprise, surprise, the behaviors evaporated.

I highly encourage you to meet with an occupational therapist for an evaluation and intensive help with the fine motor skill delay. That is not going to get better on its own.

Gifted kids will always have asynchronous development. It is one of the hallmarks of being gifted. It is ridiculous to hold them back, punishing them, really, because of this.

My other advice is please do have him tested for giftedness and share the results with your son. Eye opener for my kid. (He's 17 now.) Something else that helped him is a little book called "Your Child Might be Gifted If.." It has funny cartoons that helped him see that the way he sees the world and how his mind works is normal for the kind of person he is and that Giftedness is not just advanced academic ability.

I would be appalled by any teacher saying any kind of bullying is okay. No, it does not teach empathy.

Pull him out now, get testing, then decide for continuing homeschool or the gifted charter. He'll adjust just fine.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited February 6, 2016 by Paradox5

[lmrich]

I would get him an OT evaluation for his handwriting. It seems that he is even connecting his intellect to fine motor control which is not true. He is too young and bright.

[Dmmetler]

It sounds like you may need to play the "mom knows best" card and pull him out against his wishes, though I don't envy you.  

 

Weirdly, where I am, Waldorf is HUGE among homeschoolers, so I almost instinctively associate Waldorf with homeschooling in contrast to regular school.  However, the Waldorfy homeschoolers here are generally not very rigid and apply it in a way that works for their kids, taking what works and leaving the rest behind.  

 

You can still knit at home, and also do advanced math.  Good luck.  

 

Waldorf is also mostly a homeschool thing here, as well, and there's a 1 day a week Waldorf program for homeschoolers, but no Waldorf schools. We have our college students observe it. I can say that the bullying thing seems to be absent there-maybe because it's only a one day a week program. I also don't know of anyone who sticks with it beyond about 2nd grade. It appeals a lot to parents who like crafting and handwork and outside exploration, and there seems to be a big crossover between Waldorf and Charlotte Mason folks-as in, they do a lot together, and by about 3rd grade, seem to merge.  A lot of parents who use the program here seem to have kids who are on the ASD spectrum, so I'm guessing the bullying thing isn't a big deal here. I somehow can't imagine sending your child who you're working so hard on social skills and reading cues with into a situation where the adults in charge think bullying is beneficial!

 

I didn't consider it for my DD because our whole reason for homeschooling WAS academics.

 

On the philosophy stuff, I had to read enough original sources in grad school to realize that everyone's founder back far enough said some pretty crazy things that sound horrible in today's context. Steiner is definitely no exception.

[eternalsummer]

Having read the thread (DH read it too), we're planning to withdraw him.  For DH it was pretty obvious; for me, more difficult.  (my heart races just thinking about it!  Bah)

 

When I ask myself what the best case scenario is  - DS starts behaving well again, decides he can stand the academic restriction and somehow makes friends with the kids - and realize that even in that scenario he's still in for years of limitation and frustration, I know it has to be done.  

 

Plus, the fact that after 6 months of school, I have to start homeschooling again right where we left off almost a year ago - that is annoying!  And indicative of how little progress he'll ever be able to make at that school in the subjects that interest him.

 

The gifted charter is scheduled to give him the Cogat on the 11th (they give priority in the lottery to kids who test at 95 or above in a section of the Cogat, is my understanding), so at least we'll have that to go on.  He also will get to shadow a day or two there if he is accepted in the lottery, which may help him look forward to the future, and I'll put him in the after-school lego class there starting in a week or two.  He loves legos and can't have them at home because of small ones who eat little plastic bits.

[Pen]

I've not read other replies, maybe will have time to do so later.

 

My ds went to Waldorf for 1 and a half years of K and first grade. K was more positive than negative and the best alternative I could find for him at that time. However, bullying at the school was an issue, and I do not see that it in any way builds empathy. There is, IMO, a baloney bunch of views on that sort of thing in Waldorf pedagogy. I had been involved with trying to improve that, but even when they had classes dwindle to only 4 students due to bullying it became clear that it would not change, because it was part of the belief system there.

 

I also believe that their idea that handwork etc. will significantly help with dysgraphia type issues is baloney. My ds was the best at handwork in the class, but it did nothing for his dysgraphia and dyslexia troubles which were independent of that, and the "wait and see" or the child will mature out of it approach is IMHO also probably erroneous in cases where there is a "dys" LD involved.

 

I am surprised that your dd has had some differentiation. IME differentiation is contrary to the Waldorf belief system which is that everyone has to do the same thing at the same time according to Steiner philosophy of what stages the child should go through. That can be good or bad depending. I plan to delete this so it cannot be identified but in my ds's school there was even a fluent s

Spanish speaking child who got seated in the bad children's seat because she did not want to participate in drills to wrongly say out Spanish words in unison with the class for things like colors with a not as fluent as herself teacher. (Not totally a million miles wrong, but, say, rojo was used even if it should have been roja to modify a feminine noun--which, as I understand it, sort of thing grated on the fluent Spanish child's sense of correctness.)  that child also wanted to be there and to manage to fit in, but it was not working. Last I heard she had been shifted to public school and was fitting in well and happily.

 

If your son could use the school to gain more skills in socialization, running, motor skills etc., and wishes to do that, while reading and doing other academics afterschool (rather than acting up so that he gets to go read during school) that could be okay. There are different types of gifts, artistic, athletic, academic, etc. and you might try to explain to your son that that is the case and that while he has more of one type he has less of others and that it can be good to work on our weaker points, which he can do at school, while still enjoying his reading and math and so on at home. The Waldorf will probably never be a good fit for him academically, and that may tend to mean that it won't be socially either.

 

But I suggest that you either have some benchmarks that must be met by end of the year for him to stay in the current school, or else try him in the other school for next year.

[eternalsummer]

DD10's teacher is less ideologically wed to the pedagogy (this is her first year at the school and she told me pretty explicitly the things she likes about it, which matched some of mine).  She detailed the ways in which DD is allowed/encouraged to progress further than her classmates, and since DD is somewhat more self-directed (not to mention 3 years older) it works out for her.  

 

Also, DD loves the art/music/gardening/cooking/fairy stories part of the curriculum, so the lack of academic pushing is okay for her - she's inspired by those things, and sort of takes her academic exploration cues off of them.  We do Latin after school.

 

 

Part of what happened is that this is not technically a Waldorf school; it is a Waldorf methods public charter.  I wrongly thought that the public charter aspect would weed out more of the Waldorf idiosyncrasy.  It is a school that works well for dreamy, parts-to-whole, self-directed, artistic kids and not as well for needy, whole-to-parts, tech-interested kids.  And what I really didn't anticipate was how difficult it would be for a kid with fine motor difficulty.

 

Interestingly, there is none of the bullying aspect in my daughter's class.  I think partially this may be because the class has had a different teacher each year and a lot of new enrollment each year (so there is less of an in-groupism mentality because there is less of a stable group).  She says the best thing about her class is that there are no "popular" girls and no cliques.  Having myself been in 5 different elementaries, all with cliques, I am really happy for her to have found a group she feels comfortable with in that way.

 

 

[Pen]

Sometimes the public aspect does lessen the extreme aspects, and you may even be seeing a very mitigated version even with your ds. One of my ds's classmates was taken out of their school b/c the mom had taught at public Waldorf charter and expected a no bullying, zero-tolerance policy. Her son was acting like a bully and she did not want that to be let go as "normal" to his age as the teachers at our school were wont to do, so she pulled him and put him in a zero-tolerance school where he would be expected to shape up.

 

Your dd sounds like she got incredibly lucky and like she should stay, or at least so long as it continues to seem excellent for her.   Alas, part of tending to have same teacher for 8 years, is that it is good for kids who do well with that particular teacher and bad for ones who don't. 

 

At our Waldorf too, there were a few particularly excellent seeming teachers who had the ability to be relatively broadminded in approach, and seemed to be better for a wider group of children and to keep their classes from becoming clique magnets.

 

I had missed your post that you were planning to take ds out, or I would not have written my long post, but I think your decision sounds like a good one for your ds for whom the Waldorf does not sound like a good fit. Or at least not full time. Maybe the original idea of doing it one day while home schooling if the other school you are looking at does not work out would be a better fit.

Edited February 6, 2016 by Pen

[eternalsummer]

The more long posts the better Pen; we withdrew him but I am feeling angsty about it so your advice was still much appreciated.

 

Yes, DD's teacher could leave and then we might have to find somewhere else; the school is actually in pretty serious danger of losing their charter next year anyway because (surprise) their reading scores on the standardized tests have been poor and it's been difficult to even convince the parents to let their kids take the tests.  

 

When I told DD's teacher about DS's situation (in general terms, just so she would know what was going on and that we weren't planning to pull DD), she said she firmly believed that sometimes different kids needed different educational methods to thrive.  I've had other teachers and parents at the school tell me that this school was DS's "only chance," which I see now is kind of silly.

 

Part of my angst about pulling him out is the cult aspect I think-  the parents and the teachers are in general true believers, and I'm susceptible to that sort of social pressure, so while I know it is the best thing (and I am excited to have him home for a bit!  the math we will do!) it is not easy to reject them.

 

Somehow I knew this board would be a bit more clearheaded about the whole thing.

 

 

 

[Pen]

If you're feeling angst, that tends to be normal with it, often just because it has some charming aspects...not to mention the feeling one gets that if one isn't there the child will be ruined. 

 

There is (or at least used to be) a whole website about Waldorf problems--cannot recall the name, but google likely to find it--where you can find posts from graduates of Waldorf who feel they were harmed and raised in a cult atmosphere if that would help you feel more easy on the choice.  Of course, others feel their Waldrof ed was excellent and helpful. It can be either way, or some of each, depending on the exact circumstances and fit. It certainly is not the only way as its true believer teachers (or parents) would have one believe.

 

 

[TerriM]

ananemone, I think you made the right decision to pull him out.   Teachers and principals frequently try to assure parents that everything will be ok, that the way they're doing things is right, but sometimes they are simply wrong.   

 

Different grades can have different social makeups.  I've seen classes at the same school where one set of kids functioned well together while learning to "appreciate" their differences while another was so dysfunctional, that  I once mentioned to a teacher that one girl was getting bullied by her best friend during lunch, and the teacher said "Yes.  I've told her to make better choices in friends."  That about summed it up for multiple kids in that class--kids having trouble making healthy friendships, and some kids bullying their best friends whether they meant to or not.  It could be that your son is having trouble making friends, but it could also be that your daughter lucked out.

[daijobu]

I mentioned this earlier, but if there are things about Waldorf that you really like, you can continue to do those things.  My Waldorf-y friends are more properly called, "Waldorf-inspired."  Some start out fully Waldorf, then gradually move away from it as their children age.  

 

Take what works, leave out the rest.  No need to be ideological about it, just do what works for your child.  That's the beauty of homeschooling.  Good luck!  

[SKL]

I would not have considered Waldorf because it seems to take "later is better" to an extreme.  I love the other ideas, but I think it is asking too much of an academically advanced 7yo to be patient all day with no intellectual stimulation.

 

Is there any chance that you could talk your son into viewing handwriting as a worthwhile [positive] challenge, instead of just something he doesn't do well?  If you could work that psychology on him, that might save the situation.  Otherwise, I honestly don't see it working.

 

I like the idea of putting him in some of the gifted school's afterschool activities so he gets a taste and may want more.

 

ETA:  sorry, I just realized you already withdrew him.  :)

Edited February 7, 2016 by SKL

[eternalsummer]

Minor update: we emailed his teacher and all the school offical people on Saturday regarding his withdrawal.  We have not heard a peep from anyone.  Possibly they are grateful :)  Possibly they are just not very professional.  At any rate DS is handling it a ton better than I thought he would; we found a homeschool day program every other week at the Space Foundation and Discovery Center (they do math, space, engineering, etc.) and some meetups at open gyms and whatnot.  We've gotten right back into BA; he did solidify some math facts over the last 6 months so that is great.  We've also restarted TOPScience and Bravewriter.

 

I asked him what he wanted to do for homeschool - I said we had to do math, science, writing, reading, history, but he could pick the curricula (from some options I provided) and he went right for an electricity unit, lots of math, codebreaking, writing a detective story (he's super into the Hardy Boys), and reading about planes in WW2.

 

I don't know that the Waldorf school, lovely as it is, would ever have allowed/encouraged him to do any of that.

 

 

I am feeling good.  Thank you all so much for your reassurance and good advice :)

[daijobu]

Wonderful news!  I'm so happy for your son and you.  I love that he's writing mystery stories.  He sounds like a lovely person.  

[MinivanMom]

I'm glad it's all worked out. It sounds like he's going to be much happier.

 

But, as a former teacher, I think it's incredibly unprofessional of them to not respond to your email. Doesn't your older daughter still attend the school? 

Edited February 11, 2016 by MinivanMom

[zarabellesmom]

I'm so glad you are out. The bullying and the teacher's response would have been all I needed to pull the plug.

[eternalsummer]

Yes, they've not responded to emails before; they are not a hugely professional outfit, I think.  DD10's teacher always replies to emails but the director et al. are not as great about it.  We sent one asking about the Halloween costume rules and got nothing earlier this year.

[eternalsummer]

Update to the Update:

He was given a giftedness screener at the gifted charter - not the Cogat, as I'd been told, but the Kbit2 (that is what she said, I'm pretty sure).  He scored in the 88th percentile, so not high enough to have priority placement in the lottery.  The test took 15 minutes; when DD10 was screened in 1st I think it must have been the Cogat or maybe a WISC variation because it was much longer.

 

It is certainly possible he is at the 88th percentile; evaluating your own kids is difficult.  My personal experience of him, though, is that he is comfortable working 2 grades ahead in math and language arts (separate of the physical component of handwriting).  He has progressed not at all this year in math at the Waldorf school so we started where we left off in BA last spring (actually a bit behind, for review); he reads and comprehends easily at the 5th grade level (Hardy Boys, Indian in the Cupboard books, Harry Potter, Warrior Cats books, etc.).  I have not pushed him in anything, really, ever.

 

So anyway, the update is that for now we're planning to homeschool next year and do the STEM-oriented one day a week program.  I was kind of feeling like this was the way to go even before the test results, as I really *like* homeschooling for academics.  Our disappointment with homeschooling last year was the lack of social interaction, but I am hoping that the one day a week program and some enrichment classes/homeschool days at local museums with a regular group helps with that.

 

 

 

[katilac]

OP, it sounds like you are really on the right track. You have nailed down some social outlets, and homeschooling can really feed a child's interests and/or giftedness.

 

 

 On the philosophy stuff, I had to read enough original sources in grad school to realize that everyone's founder back far enough said some pretty crazy things that sound horrible in today's context. Steiner is definitely no exception.

 

This is true, but it doesn't take much googling to find some pretty recent batsh!t craziness related to Waldorf schools, lol. I think there are probably a lot of excellent Waldorf schools out there that have balanced the initial inspiration with more modern concerns, but there are definitely some that still take the full on Steiner view of karma, bullying, and so forth. 

 

 

[eternalsummer]

I went to DD10's parent meeting night on Thurs. (basically the teacher telling parents about recent classroom events/future planning) and lo and behold, the director was there!  So I talked to him afterward (since he never responded to our email notifying them of DS7's withdrawal, or any other email).  I aired all of our concerns and his basic response was that DS7 was a great kid, very bright and energetic, etc., combined with a sort of deflecting laugh. There was no response to the very non-confrontational way I raised the bullying issue, no response to the lack of differentiation except to say that the Waldorf way was to keep the intellect in check so the body could catch up while the intellect "slept" (he used the  same terminology so it must be pedagogical).  He did acknowledge that forced boredom was obviously not going to work well for DS7, and suggested that maybe when DS7's body has caught up in a few years he can rejoin the school? 

 

At that point I realized I was dealing with someone who was not very with it, so I just disengaged.  

 

I think part of this is a trouble with charter schools - this is our first experience with one so I could be wrong, but it seems like they are trying to navigate two competing interests.  The charter requires them to technically be open enrollment and maybe they want the enrollment numbers (?) so they are super unclear when you sign up about how little help they can actually give your not-normal child.  At the same time, they've got this ideology to serve and the ideology pushes against the charter requirements (open enrollment, standardized testing, reading instruction before 7, etc.)  The parents, who started the school on the basis of ideology, run the school board and the board runs the school - the director is in fact a parent with a masters in ed. but no previous admin. experience; he replaced the previous director, an educational admin. who wasn't Waldorf enough.  

 

Some of the most frequent parent comments/requests you see in the annual review are "get rid of loud children," "don't allow parents to teach their kids to read outside of school," "ban all electronics from kids' lives *even at home*," "require parents to attend weekly Waldorf (anthoposophy?) training sessions," and so on.  

 

Anyway, I know this doesn't all have a lot to do with accelerated learning at this point and so is kind of off topic, but I want anyone who scours the internet looking for reviews of Waldorf methods charter schools to have as much info as possible.

 

It's still a fine school for DD10; her teacher is not as ideological and DD10 is kind of a natural Waldorf kid anyway (half-dreamy).

 

She is beginning to request more and more school at home, though.  We were just doing Latin; then Latin and math, now Latin, math, science, and writing.

 

 

*edited to be more clear about the director's experience/role

 

Edited February 16, 2016 by ananemone

[Pen]

... I aired all of our concerns and his basic response was that DS7 was a great kid, very bright and energetic, etc., combined with a sort of deflecting laugh. There was no response to the very non-confrontational way I raised the bullying issue, no response to the lack of differentiation except to say that the Waldorf way was to keep the intellect in check so the body could catch up while the intellect "slept" (he used the  same terminology so it must be pedagogical).  He did acknowledge that forced boredom was obviously not going to work well for DS7, and suggested that maybe when DS7's body has caught up in a few years he can rejoin the school? 

 

At that point I realized I was dealing with someone who was not very with it, so I just disengaged.  

 

...

 

 

That is straight Waldorf pedagogy and beliefs about child development so far as I know. He is "with it" in those terms.

 

While you probably never want to put your ds back there, I think it is nice that a door was left open, and also would tend to make times when your ds might be around for an event for dd less awkward. IMO.

[eternalsummer]

Yes, he seemed pretty clear on what the pedagogy was, but at a complete loss for how it could relate to DS7 in a constructive way (or in any way, really, until DS7 changes to fit their mold a bit better).  I guess that is what having a firm pedagogy means :)  Homeschooling has spoiled me for the effectiveness of instruction!

It was a lot less bridge-burn-y than I'd thought it would be, which I agree is a fine thing :)  

[Pen]

Maybe some of the links below will help you to realize that your situation was not unusual. And also maybe to avert any problems that might crop up with your dd, esp if her teacher changes.

 

http://waldorfcritics.org/

 

https://sites.google.com/site/waldorfwatch/our-experience

 

http://sylviaashton.tripod.com/waldorfeducation/

https://sites.google.com/site/waldorfwatch/our-experience

https://sites.google.com/site/waldorfwatch/my-sad-sad-story

http://www.montessorianswers.com/my-experiences-with-waldorf.html

http://petekaraiskos.blogspot.com/2012/05/aftermath-of-mumsnet-censorship.html (note the many articles, blogs, etc re bullying along the right hand side such as: http://petekaraiskos.blogspot.com/2012/05/parent-discovers-bullying-at-waldorf.html

[eternalsummer]

ty, reading now

 

eta: okay stopped reading, blood boiling

Edited February 17, 2016 by ananemone