12, 13, 14 year old kids and what to do about co-op fostering slacker attitude?

[Pen]

My 13 year old is in a Co-op he loves and that is thinking to expand on into high school.

 

I feel there is a problem though that I do not know how to handle. He started in a spring semester class on American History for 11-14 year olds, which from his reports sounds basically excellent, taught by a dad who is a history buff.

 

When he started he was excited by the class, took good notes in class and devoted himself to the homework the first week. At a meeting for talking about whether the co-op should continue into high school, I mentioned this as an example of something going well, and got a reaction from other parents of something like "you have a weird kid" (to be excited and wanting to do his homework, for example).

 

Two weeks later my son does not take notes in class, "because no one else does". He did not want to do his homework, "because no one else does."  (This turned out on more questioning not to be entirely true, one other 14 y.o. did do some extensive homework also, but then at time to share with class just mentioned a few points she had learned about, rather than reading her whole thing like he did. But most of the kids said they couldn't find any information on what they were supposed to research.)  Apparently during class he and most of the kids draw, though a couple goof off more than that. He does seem to have gotten some content info absorbed that he was telling me about at home, but a lot less than the class teacher seems to be offering.

 

 

I don't want him to be singled out as a "nerd" or whatever since my main goal for him going to the co-op was social, but I am concerned that he is being pulled into a situation of sinking to the least common denominator, as it were, of what is going on and developing bad attitudes toward academics. I realize that the majority of the kids in that age grouping, including my son, are at a difficult age, with a lot of balkiness and rebelliousness as part of it.

 

I don't know if I should talk to the director of the program about it (a good opportunity exists right now because she has asked about what parents would like to see for science classes in the next term), who also has a son in that class, but at the 11 year old end, so more of an excuse for doing less, but also she may have a different perspective on what is going on.  Let it go and let the co-op just be "social" while expecting him to do other work at home. Insist on our own standards regardless of what the other kids are doing (perhaps like the other girl letting him plan to share just a tiny bit so that he does not stand out as doing more). Or some other approach I've not yet thought of.

 

 

WWYD?

 

[regentrude]

Since the comments came from other parents, there is clearly a mismatch in academic expectations between you and the other parents, which does not bode well for anything high school related. Apparently standards are not enforced by the teacher either, who lets kids get away with their behavior in class- so there is little you can do.

I would do the coop for the social aspect this year and then cut my losses and stop; in high school, I would not waste time on a class that does not fit into the framework of my academic expectations for my student.

 

Sadly, this was exactly my experience with coop; it was glorified playgroup and ultimately not worth our time.

Edited February 4, 2016 by regentrude

[Arcadia]

My DS11 complains about something very similar except its hands on science which he attends for social reasons. Comically he and the other 11 year old are the ones who do all the required readings and homework before class as well as the labs in class. Some kids in the class are using charter funds and are basically "forced" by parents to show up. Some are just there for the social aspect and do some work.

 

What the class teacher does is that those under the charter get a bad report to their ES unless they did all the required work (but ignore the enrichment). Those on parents' dime the teacher let the parent know but if the parent don't mind and the child is not disruptive then the teacher can't force the child to put in more effort.

 

My kid just stick with the other kid for lab partners and they benefit from the teacher paying more attention to them during tutorial sessions. The other kid's parents has the same standards as hubby and me so that was easy.

 

My kid does doodle in class but he would read up whatever he is unsure of at home from books. Does the US history class has a textbook or readings? Or does your son need to take notes?

 

Both my kids are not into history as a class. I won't sign them up for any B&M class but I can understand parents signing their kids up for the class as a get it done class.

 

I think the problem with any group class is that there will always be kids who are there just to check a box. My boys stay motivated for classes they like by sticking with other motivated kids.

[Miss Mousie]

My 13 year old is in a Co-op he loves and that is thinking to expand on into high school.

 

I feel there is a problem though that I do not know how to handle. He started in a spring semester class on American History for 11-14 year olds, which from his reports sounds basically excellent, taught by a dad who is a history buff.

 

When he started he was excited by the class, took good notes in class and devoted himself to the homework the first week. At a meeting for talking about whether the co-op should continue into high school, I mentioned this as an example of something going well, and got a reaction from other parents of something like "you have a weird kid" (to be excited and wanting to do his homework, for example).

 

Two weeks later my son does not take notes in class, "because no one else does". He did not want to do his homework, "because no one else does."  (This turned out on more questioning not to be entirely true, one other 14 y.o. did do some extensive homework also, but then at time to share with class just mentioned a few points she had learned about, rather than reading her whole thing like he did. But most of the kids said they couldn't find any information on what they were supposed to research.)  Apparently during class he and most of the kids draw, though a couple goof off more than that. He does seem to have gotten some content info absorbed that he was telling me about at home, but a lot less than the class teacher seems to be offering.

 

 

I don't want him to be singled out as a "nerd" or whatever since my main goal for him going to the co-op was social, but I am concerned that he is being pulled into a situation of sinking to the least common denominator, as it were, of what is going on and developing bad attitudes toward academics. I realize that the majority of the kids in that age grouping, including my son, are at a difficult age, with a lot of balkiness and rebelliousness as part of it.

 

I don't know if I should talk to the director of the program about it (a good opportunity exists right now because she has asked about what parents would like to see for science classes in the next term), who also has a son in that class, but at the 11 year old end, so more of an excuse for doing less, but also she may have a different perspective on what is going on.  Let it go and let the co-op just be "social" while expecting him to do other work at home. Insist on our own standards regardless of what the other kids are doing (perhaps like the other girl letting him plan to share just a tiny bit so that he does not stand out as doing more). Or some other approach I've not yet thought of.

 

 

WWYD?

 

We've never had a co-op option, but what you describe is exactly what PS was for my son (and one of the main reasons we pulled him out).  So, I think regentrude's advice is the way I'd go:

 

 I would do the coop for the social aspect this year and then cut my losses and stop; in high school, I would not waste time on a class that does not fit into the framework of my academic expectations for my student.

 

 

... except to say that, in our case with PS, it wasn't only the parents, nor the parents plus the students, but the parents, students, teachers and principal! who shared the same lousy standards and expectations!   

 

 

Since the comments came from other parents, there is clearly a mismatch in academic expectations between you and the other parents, which does not bode well for anything high school related. Apparently standards are not enforced by the teacher either, who lets kids get away with their behavior in class- so there is little you can do.

 

Sometimes a little competition is a good thing ... unless the "competition" is about who can do the least/worst and/or be most disruptive.  Sigh.

[PineFarmMom]

One of the many reasons we homeschool is so that our children won't fall into peer pressure, academically, spiritually, socially, etc. I don't think the social benefits would be worth it to deal with potentially creating a slacker attitude, leaving the impression on him that it is okay to slack off or hide your hard work, strictly because it is easier to fit in that way. Is there a way to get him involved in a group that is strictly fun? Or a group that meets in a team type setting where they are all working toward a common goal: sports, debate, drama, music?

 

Co-ops are tricky for that reason. It helps to know if you are dealing with like-minded families!!!

Edited February 4, 2016 by Texas T

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'd either drop out or have him continue for the social aspect that it is and not count it as an academic co-op.

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

One of the many reasons we homeschool is so that our children won't fall into peer pressure, academically, spiritually, socially, etc. I don't think the social benefits would be worth it to deal with potentially creating a slacker attitude, leaving the impression on him that it is okay to slack off or hide your hard work, strictly because it is easier to fit in that way. Is there a way to get him involved in a group that is strictly fun? Or a group that meets in a team type setting where they are all working toward a common goal: sports, debate, drama, music?

 

Co-ops are tricky for that reason. It helps to know if you are dealing with like-minded families!!!

 

I agree. One reason I homeschool is because I didn't want my kids to develop an anti learning/school attitude.  We left a co-op because at one point they started singing songs about how school sucks.  No joke. 

[Pen]

His other classes there have been mostly good to excellent, but have not so much been trying to be "academic."  For example, he had an acting class last session in which they did theater exercises of various types and put on a one-act play, and a city planning class in which he got a pretty good intro to the ideas of zoning, infrastructure and various concepts.

 

He currently has a class where they are building two shelters for homeless people which seems super: combining hands on doing, with all sorts of learning--this class is with a professional experienced paid teacher--and particularly who taught TAG classes in past-- which also may help. Ds also has a geometry (Euclidian and non-Euclidian construction) class with that same teacher which seems to be going fine.

 

The history class was one he transferred into because he felt that a performance music class I signed him up for was having too much silliness though it too was with a paid professional teacher. So it is not just the professional versus parent issue.  I was there for the first day of his acting class and know that the teacher said something like, "Now we have a lot to do in these weeks, so I expect everyone to be here, ready to go,  ..." etc. sort of establishing a pretty hard working ethos for the class.  His city planning class started out with an acknowledgement that there were kids of all different levels and pre-existing knowledge in the class, and that she'd do her best to meet their needs and expected everyone to do their best. And one boy had to switch out because there was more writing required at minimum than he was able to do.  I wasn't there for first days this time (and ds himself was't at the first day of the history class since he transferred into it), so don't know how that was handled in the history class.

 

The history class does not have a text. The teacher more or less "lectures" and then gives assignments for the students to do research, write about, and come back and report to the rest of the class on what they learn.  As I write this, I am thinking that maybe there is a problem in that it has been assumed that the kids know how to do that, but maybe they don't, leading to an inability to do it, for real, and maybe a cover-up of the inability with playing around...  

 

The class has an in depth focus on the early stages of (mostly north and mostly what would become USA) America in European colonial times. So, for example, my ds's first assignment was to learn about, write about, and report to the class on Thomas West. His current one was the same for Edward Winslow. The other kids were given other people. The first time around some included John Rolfe, James Forte (I believe, and it really was hard to find info on him, when I tried to), Powhatan, Pocahantas...   all seeming to be from Virginia colony area. This time probably all were Plymouth, Massachusetts related.

 

The general idea of doing independent research, writing about, and reporting to the class on one figure from history each week seems to me like a suitable middle school level thing to do. 

[Pen]

No one thinks talking to or emailing the director would be productive?  

 

I had told her I'd be interested in working with her, heath permitting, on some ideas for the possiblility of continuing into high school. One of the things she was interested in was gathering together what are prerequisites for some colleges and she specifically named a few, ranging from local CC and state univ, to Ivy league. I went to Ivy league, and could say on that, as far as is going on in the history class, they would need to radically change their attitude to learning if that is a direction to be aimed at.

[SparklyUnicorn]

No one thinks talking to or emailing the director would be productive?  

 

Well what would you say?  What are you hoping will change?  Can you really ask him to change things to suit what one person wants?

[Miss Mousie]

No one thinks talking to or emailing the director would be productive?  

 

I had told her I'd be interested in working with her, heath permitting, on some ideas for the possiblility of continuing into high school. One of the things she was interested in was gathering together what are prerequisites for some colleges and she specifically named a few, ranging from local CC and state univ, to Ivy league. I went to Ivy league, and could say on that, as far as is going on in the history class, they would need to radically change their attitude to learning if that is a direction to be aimed at.

 

I don't think it would be productive.  And, while some of the classes you mentioned upthread sound like they went well and were worthwhile, I'm not sure I'd be game for the Guinea-Pig Year of high-school-level classes, at least not for core subjects.  However, if you do talk to her again about the high school possibility, I think you should mention the variety of engagement/commitment levels you've seen, and see what she has to say about it.

[Pen]

Well what would you say?  What are you hoping will change?  Can you really ask him to change things to suit what one person wants?

 

 

Hmmm.

 

Good point. Gotta think about that.  Meanwhile it came to me that James Forte was not a person. James Forte was Jamestown itself.

[Haiku]

If it were me I would do one of two things:

 

1) Drop out immediately. I wouldn't allow my kids to use an academic co-op class for social time.

 

or

 

2) If my kid really wanted to stay, tell my kid that I expected notes to be taken in class and all assigned work completed (to my satisfaction) as a requirement to remain in the class. Any grumbling on the part of said kid would result in immediate withdrawal from the class.

 

I would not waste my time transporting my kid to something that amounted to a waste of time, and I wouldn't leave my kid in an environment that fostered academic demotivation.

[...................]

My dd attends a co--op with a similar problem. It seems all the other parents view it as merely enrichment. This co op is designed to be a nearly full history course for the year as well as the children are required to do presentations and other fun enrichments things.

 

No one does the history homework. No one except 3 out of 18 kids prepares for the presentations.

 

I ensure that my dd does the homework and presentations and one of our main goals was social time, and so for us it is meeting our needs. However as a high school program I would never waste my time in this manner.

 

High school is too important

Edited February 4, 2016 by Calming Tea

[regentrude]

No one thinks talking to or emailing the director would be productive?  

 

I had told her I'd be interested in working with her, heath permitting, on some ideas for the possiblility of continuing into high school. One of the things she was interested in was gathering together what are prerequisites for some colleges and she specifically named a few, ranging from local CC and state univ, to Ivy league. I went to Ivy league, and could say on that, as far as is going on in the history class, they would need to radically change their attitude to learning if that is a direction to be aimed at.

 

No. If you are the parent who wants it academic and the remaining parents make fun of the kid who does homework, I don't see what talking to the director would accomplish.

[Pen]

Maybe just an enquiry, like

 

Hi Name,

 

 I was wondering if given your background with co-ops and education you could give me some feedback about something going on with Sonname at the co-op. I'm not sure if you recall that at the parent meeting I reported that Sonname was happy with and excited to be doing the homework from the American history class he's in, and that other parents said something like "your kid is weird" or something to that effect.

 

Well, the next time around, Sonname was reluctant to do his homework because, he says, no one else does it, and says he no longer takes class notes because no one else does. I'm not sure if he is correct in this, but given the response of the other parents, think maybe he is. And I don't know if this is normal for Co-opname and is its way that he is now adjusting to, and to let it be for reasons of his social health not to be considered "weird" by the other kids and their parents? Or should I try to keep him at some higher level of standards and that maybe some other parents there would also want their kids to be doing more rather than less? I know that schools don't have to be this way because part of my own education I was at an alternative school--no grades, almost "unschool", but fed into Ivy League type colleges -- where it was not like that.

 

If there is a prevailing anti-academic, it is uncool to enjoy academics aspects of school, it is uncool to enjoy homework attitude prevailing, that also concerns me in terms of considering Nameofcoop for high school level for anything other than a social outlet or for very unusual hands on learning classes like Nameofbuildingforthehomeless class.  I don't know if there might be some way to work with this sort of like when you called the community meeting about some pine cone throwing (as I understood it) incident, and talked about the type of community you want Nameofcoop to be in terms of kindness and inclusion. It seems like maybe at least for the big kids, some sort of understanding of wanting the coop to be a place where learning is respected and can be a fun and enriching thing for its own sake, and where different ages and different abilities are taken into account, but where working to the best level each is able is important and expected, would be helpful to impart to the kids. 

 

 I was also wondering if all the kids in the class have the background to be able to do some independent research and write a few paragraphs about a historical figure, or if maybe those skills need to be scaffolded before assigning that for homework?

 

 I guess I'm not really sure what is going on and how to handle it, but I was bothered to see Sonname so quickly go from excited and enthusiastic to a sort of blase, slacker sort of attitude in what seems to be an attempt to fit in with what he seems to understand (perhaps wrongly) the other kids to be doing (or rather not doing).  Your feedback as a leader of the co-op, someone whose field is education, and as a parent of one of his history classmates would be much appreciated! 

 

Thanks, Myname

[regentrude]

Way too wordy and long. Director will tune out before the end

[...................]

I tuned out before the end...

 

the fact is, that only the director has the real power to shape the expectations of the community.  CLearly, she has failed to shape expectations academically so that she attracted parents who see it as merely enrichment, or easy learning, or whatever.

 

I do have another idea...if you meet with the Director, I wonder (if she wants it to be a true high school academic co-op) if you gave this new high school co-op a DIFFERENT name, and basically except the location,EVERYTHING is different- different logo, different name, even a different time or day ...and from the get-go establish that this is a truly academic co-op meant to fulfill transcript requirements for competitive colleges and only serious students are welcome to attend.  ALong with that advertisement in all hte local churches, online, and in the homeschool community email lists to attract a new base.

 

But of course the Director would have to be on board..this would perhaps set a new tone and weed out the elementary parents who are not interested in real academics, as well as drawing a new base of people from your community.

[Arcadia]

Your letter is too long and what you want discuss is better done over afternoon tea.

 

11 to 14 may be a tough age also. Parents may want to let their kids have fun at the expense of doing their homework because high school is looming. Middle school to some parents is like the last time for their kids to slack with no consequence to GPA.

 

If your coop director wish to extend to high school, it would be better to run it like a private high school with prereqs, placement tests, grades and credit given for class participation/homework. Just have a clear cut set of rules for the high school branch of the coop.

 

You might still get some benchwarmers initially but if those kids get medicore grades, their parents may look elsewhere for classes.

[Pen]

Weird...top quote was from Regentrude, some mix up in multiquote function.

 

 

Way too wordy and long. Director will tune out before the end

 

 

I tuned out before the end...

 

the fact is, that only the director has the real power to shape the expectations of the community.  CLearly, she has failed to shape expectations academically so that she attracted parents who see it as merely enrichment, or easy learning, or whatever.

 

 

 

 

Thanks. Got it on too long and tuning out.

 

Yes. That is how it has been. In fact, parent has to sign a waiver that the co-op is intended for enrichment only and that the job of schooling is left to the parent. 

 

 

 

If it were me I would do one of two things:

1) Drop out immediately. I wouldn't allow my kids to use an academic co-op class for social time.

or

2) If my kid really wanted to stay, tell my kid that I expected notes to be taken in class and all assigned work completed (to my satisfaction) as a requirement to remain in the class. Any grumbling on the part of said kid would result in immediate withdrawal from the class.

I would not waste my time transporting my kid to something that amounted to a waste of time, and I wouldn't leave my kid in an environment that fostered academic demotivation.

 

 

My dd attends a co--op with a similar problem. It seems all the other parents view it as merely enrichment. This co op is designed to be a nearly full history course for the year as well as the children are required to do presentations and other fun enrichments things.

No one does the history homework. No one except 3 out of 18 kids prepares for the presentations.

I ensure that my dd does the homework and presentations and one of our main goals was social time, and so for us it is meeting our needs. However as a high school program I would never waste my time in this manner.

High school is too important

 

 

 

So, I am scratching the idea of writing her a note and am now just deciding what my own approach to my own ds and his history class will be.

 

He did not get an assignment today, so I have a week to think about it. 

 

For us also since the main goal was social time, and it is meeting that need, I may just accept it as it is, and put my energy and expectations toward his math and other subjects he is doing at home--as well as chores getting done and other important matters--while letting the co-op be enrichment only, basically social, but if he learns a bit about something at the same time, well and good. I may be able to make it clear by counting his co-op as fun time that he can do if he continues to like it, but not counting toward "school" time. Or if he wants what he is doing to count, say as writing, then he needs to satisfy me with the quantity, quality, timeliness and diligence he has put into his work.  He already went through The Great Courses, US History earlier this year, so from my pov, history for this year has been satisfied sufficiently for a middle schooler, but he still needs to do a lot more writing in addition to math.

 

 

 

 

[...................]

Also, and I hate to say this, but usually, people invest in what they pay for.  If you increase the cost, enough to cover some small fee for the teachers (in addition to the insurance costs for the building, and materials costs), you are likely to have parents who are more willing to invest in making sure their kids do the work.

[...................]

Yes, we have used this co-op for my dd as her main history, but I supplement it with requiring her to write reports once per month, and asking her to tell me what she learned and looking things up and discussing it if she is confused.  As long as she can do that, I feel she is learning enough history and the social aspect at our co-op is wonderful.  They have hands on craft days, geography days, a Cooking Day where the cooking is based on a culture, "UN" day where there are stations doing hands on activities related to different countries, as well as a Valentine's Day party, a short PE time, and every week they get a very in depth history lesson which is scheduled ahead of time so I know how to supplement.

 

So, even though none of hte other kids do their homework or turn in reports, or prepare for their presentations, I am super thrilled to have my dd there and I would not take it away from her....for now.  High School of course, she can go for one year in high school, but we wouldn't use it as a history Credit.  It would just be another year of fun and enrichment with her friends. :o)  IF>>> she can also keep up with her regular high school courseload.

 

So, for now, you can maybe try viewing it is a Light History Enrichment....

[Pen]

It is already on the expensive side with some paid teachers. $100 per class per term, more or less (there are different ways of doing it that change the price, and it is way less for a second or third child from same family).  I don't think it being inexpensive is the issue. And my guess is that I am not the only one who is concerned notwithstanding the parents who derided being interested in doing homework as "weird."

 

I just got a group email asking about people interested in further planning, brainstorming etc about possible high school, and maybe setting up a meeting for adults and teens in the wider community, so I replied that I am interested. It could be a chance to discuss concerns and weigh in.

[...................]

Good luck! Let us know how it goes!!  

 

 

[Arcadia]

And my guess is that I am not the only one who is concerned notwithstanding the parents who derided being interested in doing homework as "weird."

I think it is possible for people to expect teens in general to need to be nag to do homework, and yet feel that homework should get done (nagging, bribing and all).

 

My kids get their work done semi-independently but they aren't enthused about homework unless it is doing a chemistry experiment. They do see the benefit of homework though.

 

Good luck on your upcoming meeting :)

[Julie of KY]

I'd pull out in your situation as it is undermining your goals for your son.

 

I expect co-ops and classes to  be what they are billed. If billed as an academic core class with homework, then I expect that. If purely elective learning and no homework, I expect my child to not be doing work on it at home.

 

We belong to both. Our academic co-op meets 1-2/days per week for each class. Social studies classes are taught once per week, math/English/foreign language are taught twice per week. There is weekly homework with the teacher grading it weekly and issuing grades. We only do one class here as I want control of most of our core subjects.

 

We also belong to an elective co-op. Classes do not have homework. Students are expected to learn and participate in class, but are not expected to work at home. Classes range from PE, bioethics, ballroom dancing, cooking, life skills such as construction and composting.

 

I want to know what I'm signing up for and then I expect the class to live up to what it was billed as.

[Pen]

In person meeting not yet in place, but an email soliciting ideas/needs/desires for classes for last term of 2015-16 was sent out.  

 

I realize this may not help, but is it at least understandable and short enough? I am thinking to cc the secondary leader of the co-op whose child seemed to be one of the leaders in the last-minute approach, but where my impression is that the parent wants more seriousness from her children.

 

 

 

Idea/Need/Desire: I think a class (or special required meetings with older children?) on study skills and academic attitudes, possibly incorporating science about brain and cognition would be extremely useful for the older children. This would be especially true if thinking toward high school level program, but even if not, just for what they are doing now, and what they will be doing in future, somewhere. 

 

I think it would need someone very skilled--very probably needs a paid teacher--so that it itself would not devolve into goofing off and fostering academically demotivating attitudes, as seems to be happening now in the history class from what I've observed in SonName, going from enthused about homework to slacker about it in an incredibly short time. I realize that currently Co-op is just for enrichment, but brain connections and habits (such as do homework as minimally as possible and as at the last minute as possible) can get formed that may be hard to change.

 

 

 

[Arcadia]

I'll let the slacking in history class go as it is an enrichment class and I don't know what the expectations are. If expectations were that homework has to be completed to the best of their abilities, then I would speak to the teacher first to get his opinion.

 

For an 8th grader, I would be looking at a class on time management, study skills and test taking skills. I would also want a talk by a guidance counselor on the four year plan for parents and 8th graders. Kids start doing a draft 4 year plan in 8th grade in public school. Placement tests are done in April/May.

 

Link explains what I mean. Just ignore the California specific slide on a-g requirements. It explains dual enrollment too.

http://www.sjusd.org/leland/career_center/four_year_plan.pdf

[Reefgazer]

I know your DS loves this co-op, but I have found that most co-ops are absolutely useless for anything truly academic.  There are different "flavors" of co-ops, and some have higher expectations than others, but I have not seen one that is truly rigorous and serious.  My kids love their co-ops, as well, but we use them strictly for social opportunities and stuff that is non-academic (art, music, woodworking, drama, etc) and leave the serious academic work for home.

 

 I don't think talking to the director will help; the anti-school attitude is coming form other students and she won't really be able to change that.

Edited February 7, 2016 by reefgazer

[katilac]

 

 

2) If my kid really wanted to stay, tell my kid that I expected notes to be taken in class and all assigned work completed (to my satisfaction) as a requirement to remain in the class. Any grumbling on the part of said kid would result in immediate withdrawal from the class.

 

 

This is my stance as well, particularly on the assigned work. I think it's very disrespectful to the teacher to ignore assignments, and counter-productive for the class and the student. 

 

Any activity that my kids participate in comes with the expectation that they participate fully. If they were 10 and wanted to go to nature camp, then they were going to find and identify 5 kinds of leaves, or write that report on erosion, or whatever. 

 

I would not let him continue attending this semester without paying attention and doing the homework, although I would be willing to talk about other ways to fit in or socialize outside of class. If you let that slacker/disrespectful attitude develop unchecked now, you are going to be fighting it until he graduates. 

 

I definitely would not let him take an academic class there again. Enrichment classes would be considered, as long as he understood that ANY class will require respecting the teacher by paying attention, not disrupting, and doing any assigned work. 

 

OP, any response yet?

[Harriet Vane]

BTDT

 

In my experience, talking to the teacher or director is likely to be useless. You simply cannot force other families to get it together and do what it takes to make a co-op class a stellar academic experience.

 

I was honest with my kids. I don't care what other families do. I required my kids to take notes, and I checked their notes after co-op. There were occasional bribes for good note-taking. Sometimes this was candy or french fries; other times it took the form of a pretty notebook and special pen for taking notes. I offered lots of praise. I made it clear that taking good notes is an essential skill for students, and they must do it. 

 

While I would not have been okay with negative ranting about their awful mom, I did encourage them to simply tell other kids if asked, "My mom requires notes and she will check later." That way I was the bad guy, not my kids. Socially it did not impact them negatively.

 

My kids got used to being the only ones taking notes.

 

They also got used to being the only ones who excelled at passing quizzes and scoring well on tests. I know that sounds high-and-mighty, but I don't mean it that way. The co-op my daughter was in for junior high saddened me a great deal. The teacher was excellent, and the opportunities she offered were top notch. My dd was literally the only student who did well on tests for that class. My daughter was also the only student--literally--who turned in her homework each week and who understood how to do the homework. The others in the class were good kids who we happily socialized with, but who really struggled with the meatier expectations of middle school level coursework. Over time, my daughter came to value note-taking almost as much as me, because she saw that this habit made her academic success much, much easier. 

 

I thank God that I emphasized these skills. My dd scored rather well on four AP exams and has been accepted to some competitive universities. My ds entered a private high school this year, and he is swimming with the big fish just fine, thankyouverymuch. He is taking more than one honors course, and his grades are awesome. Both kids achieved what they have by working hard, and both kids have expressed their appreciation to me in so many words.

[Pen]

 

 

I was honest with my kids. I don't care what other families do. I required my kids to take notes, and I checked their notes after co-op. There were occasional bribes for good note-taking. Sometimes this was candy or french fries; other times it took the form of a pretty notebook and special pen for taking notes. I offered lots of praise. I made it clear that taking good notes is an essential skill for students, and they must do it. 

 

While I would not have been okay with negative ranting about their awful mom, I did encourage them to simply tell other kids if asked, "My mom requires notes and she will check later." That way I was the bad guy, not my kids. Socially it did not impact them negatively.

 

 

 

 

 

That sounds like a helpful approach. Thank you.

[Pen]

This is my stance as well, particularly on the assigned work. I think it's very disrespectful to the teacher to ignore assignments, and counter-productive for the class and the student. 

 

Any activity that my kids participate in comes with the expectation that they participate fully. If they were 10 and wanted to go to nature camp, then they were going to find and identify 5 kinds of leaves, or write that report on erosion, or whatever. 

 

I would not let him continue attending this semester without paying attention and doing the homework, although I would be willing to talk about other ways to fit in or socialize outside of class. If you let that slacker/disrespectful attitude develop unchecked now, you are going to be fighting it until he graduates. 

 

I definitely would not let him take an academic class there again. Enrichment classes would be considered, as long as he understood that ANY class will require respecting the teacher by paying attention, not disrupting, and doing any assigned work. 

 

OP, any response yet?

 

 

I ended up sending a much shorter and different note to the teacher yesterday. So far no response.

 

I have written down which are the paid teachers there and will let him choose between those, or more social classes like dance or acting next session. Though he has had a couple of parent led classes that have worked out okay too. I also came to realize that this class did not say it would have homework on the class description. That may also be a problem. Some do say that so people would know in advance and maybe not sign kids up for those if that is not what that family wants.

 

He is now as of most recent class, the volunteer to take notes for the class as a whole, which allows him to be the only one doing it, without it seeming odd. I am pleased when he takes notes at all because I know that with dysgraphia problems that is not so easy for him.

 

I decided that the main reason for the co-op was social, not academic, so he has a writing / research assignment from me for the week separate from the one from the class there. If he decides he wants what he does for the class to count with me, he will have to do it to my standards.

 

I'll also be telling him that I will not participate with him, or in anyway help him this next week if he decides to work on his class assignment on the morning it is due. Unless the reply from the teacher, if one comes, in any way modifies this.

 

I had considered a more harsh approach that if his homework was not done to my satisfaction he could not go in at all this next week, but the class comes before 2 extremely valuable ones, so I don't actually want to not have him go at all that day. And he gets a ride in early with another family, and I don't want to penalize myself by having to drive him to the city later in the day.

[Reefgazer]

I agree with this.  I was at our own glorified playgroup last semester and there were several parents (one of whom was an administrator of the co-op) sitting within earshot of me.  They were discussing a middle school girl who complained that the class was noisy and rowdy and she couldn't concentrate.  The parents (and the administrator) were making derogatory comments about her complaints, saying she should suck it up because that's what teen boys do, maybe she needed to work in a closet, etc...   Geez, I expect parents to keep derogatory comments of individual kids to themselves, even if that's what they are actually thinking.  The problem was as much the parents/administration as it was the rowdy kids.

No. If you are the parent who wants it academic and the remaining parents make fun of the kid who does homework, I don't see what talking to the director would accomplish.

 

[MerryAtHope]

It sounds like the other classes are mainly good experiences, so I can see why you would want to continue. I think this may be something that could be solved by better communication. For many high school classes, and for any junior high classes like this history one, it should be made clear ahead of time whether homework will be required. I would even go so far as to say, "Do not sign up for this class if you are not willing to do some homework."  or something specific, such as, "This class will require the student to research one historical figure per week and to write notes or a short paper. The student must come to class prepared to share what they have learned. This will be a fun course, but also academic. Students who do not want a class with homework should not sign up." 

 

People have different reasons for joining a co-op. If this one is mainly "enrichment," then I would expect little to no homework expected of the student.

 

If your hope is for a high school co-op that could be part of your student's credits (not just "fun to get together with other kids"), then I don't see how you can get around the homework thing. They would have to read, research, write, or be active in some way out of class to have enough hours to make up a half credit or credit--1 hour per week in a class wouldn't be enough to earn a credit, even if they meet for 36 weeks, you know? 

 

So, I think the co-op would have to do more defining ahead of time to separate kids into "fun" and "enrichment" versus "academic" or "credit-worthy" classes.

 

[Pen]

It sounds like the other classes are mainly good experiences, so I can see why you would want to continue. I think this may be something that could be solved by better communication. For many high school classes, and for any junior high classes like this history one, it should be made clear ahead of time whether homework will be required. I would even go so far as to say, "Do not sign up for this class if you are not willing to do some homework."  or something specific, such as, "This class will require the student to research one historical figure per week and to write notes or a short paper. The student must come to class prepared to share what they have learned. This will be a fun course, but also academic. Students who do not want a class with homework should not sign up." 

 

People have different reasons for joining a co-op. If this one is mainly "enrichment," then I would expect little to no homework expected of the student.

 

If your hope is for a high school co-op that could be part of your student's credits (not just "fun to get together with other kids"), then I don't see how you can get around the homework thing. They would have to read, research, write, or be active in some way out of class to have enough hours to make up a half credit or credit--1 hour per week in a class wouldn't be enough to earn a credit, even if they meet for 36 weeks, you know? 

 

So, I think the co-op would have to do more defining ahead of time to separate kids into "fun" and "enrichment" versus "academic" or "credit-worthy" classes.

 

 

I agree with all of this.

 

Probably there are 3 or 4 categories of classes: social, enrichment, project-based, academic, with some overlap at times.

[FriedClams]

If it were me I would do one of two things:

 

1) Drop out immediately. I wouldn't allow my kids to use an academic co-op class for social time.

 

or

 

2) If my kid really wanted to stay, tell my kid that I expected notes to be taken in class and all assigned work completed (to my satisfaction) as a requirement to remain in the class. Any grumbling on the part of said kid would result in immediate withdrawal from the class.

 

I would not waste my time transporting my kid to something that amounted to a waste of time, and I wouldn't leave my kid in an environment that fostered academic demotivation.

This. Completely. 100%.

 

As an aside, I get the "social" aspect. I have two teens. But for me, there is no more important social skill than doing the right thing, even if it's not popular or cool. I think you have s great "social skills" lab on your hands.

Edited February 14, 2016 by FriedClams

[Pen]

This. Completely. 100%.

 

As an aside, I get the "social" aspect. I have two teens. But for me, there is no more important social skill than doing the right thing, even if it's not popular or cool. I think you have s great "social skills" lab on your hands.

 

 

I'm not sure if you would actually "get"  the social aspect, precisely because you do have two teens.  Even if they are not getting along well, it is probably at least a bit of another kid to have in their lives.

 

I have an only child and we live in a rural area. His best and only local friend moved away around a year ago. Just one other kid/friend made a huge difference.  

 

It isn't  an "aside" in our situation. It is pretty key and important. The issue is how to keep the social aspect that the co-op is helping with, without becoming academically demotivated.  Also only 1 of 6 classes he has taken there has had this problem.

[Pen]

update: The class that was causing the problem has apparently switched to assigning no homework.

[Harriet Vane]

update: The class that was causing the problem has apparently switched to assigning no homework.

 

Sad. At that point, there is no way a once per week class can be anything but enrichment. 

[Pen]

To me for it to be just enrichment is better than fostering a bad attitude. The problem is it was trying to straddle the fence and that was not working.

 

 

As decisions are made about moving into possible high school continuation for the co-op one thing that seems clear to me is that everything will have to be clearly either "academic" or "enrichment."  I think there could be some of each type, but I don't think that one single class can be

[Entropymama]

Well what would you say?  What are you hoping will change?  Can you really ask him to change things to suit what one person wants?

 

You might get a feel for his or her expectations. I, along with a few others, formalized a co-op this year. Even though we teach history and science, we are for enrichment only - we're not legally allowed to replace home instruction - and we made that clear at the beginning of the year.  Because of that, all the homework and at-home activities have been given as optional. Frankly, very few of the kids do them. This is frustrating for me, as a teacher and as the director, but because of the way we framed it at the beginning of the year, there's little we can do. Next year we plan on structuring it differently and letting folks know up front that homework is part of the class.  

 

It could be that this will be addressed going forward. 

[...................]

update: The class that was causing the problem has apparently switched to assigning no homework.

I think This is actually a blessing for you, because now it truly is enrichment and you can add to it on your own but you aren't fostering a bad frustrating work ethic.

 

:)

[Pen]

You might get a feel for his or her expectations. I, along with a few others, formalized a co-op this year. Even though we teach history and science, we are for enrichment only - we're not legally allowed to replace home instruction - and we made that clear at the beginning of the year.  Because of that, all the homework and at-home activities have been given as optional. Frankly, very few of the kids do them. This is frustrating for me, as a teacher and as the director, but because of the way we framed it at the beginning of the year, there's little we can do. Next year we plan on structuring it differently and letting folks know up front that homework is part of the class.  

 

It could be that this will be addressed going forward. 

 

 

That is an interesting point. How could something be worded to not fun afoul of a legal requirement, and yet also indicated that what is done is meant to be taken seriously?

 

I am not sure what the rule about this is in my state.

[Arcadia]

That is an interesting point. How could something be worded to not fun afoul of a legal requirement, and yet also indicated that what is done is meant to be taken seriously?

Something like this kind of wording is common here.

"While this course cannot be taken for the purpose of earning credit, we expect all students who enroll for this course to abide by the course's stipulated rules and expectations"

[Entropymama]

That is an interesting point. How could something be worded to not fun afoul of a legal requirement, and yet also indicated that what is done is meant to be taken seriously?

 

I am not sure what the rule about this is in my state.

 

It's not that much of a problem, really, we just handled it the wrong way. It's our first year as an official thing. We were really trying to steer clear of the legalities, so we made it all up to the parents. Next year we're going to require the homework, we'll just keep the wording that says parents are responsible for assuring their child is receiving all necessary instruction, etc. 

[Pen]

 Next year we're going to require the homework, ...

 

 

How will you ensure that it is done as required?

[maryr]

After having taught several small co-op classes myself I think what you have experienced is quite common. There were kids who came to my class and were interested in the subject material but refused to do the work. One ninth grade boy brought a report completely reprinted from Wikipedia. I called him on it, asked him to redo it, and he didn't turn in assignments again. A huge part of the problem was that his parents didn't seem to care if he did the work.

 

On the other hand, I have had great experiences with very small groups. Sometimes it is just the personality of the group that makes a difference. 

 

mary