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[Lecka]

Cricket -- I don't want to hurt your feelings, but I don't think bc you read one book that you are an expert on ABA. I also doubt you know a single thing about Verbal Behavior. I don't think you need to, either, when it is not your son's level, but when you don't know anything about it and you have read one book about ABA, or maybe two, or three, maybe don't pass judgment on a therapy my son did extensively and that has helped him immensely.

 

I am sorry you found it disjointed and glad you found something that was a better fit.

 

But that is hardly fair grounds to criticize ABA in my opinion.

[Crimson Wife]

Targeting language by isolating vocabulary and syntax may help some kids but I think a more effective approach is to include speech therapy. Yes, my ABA book did target those areas in isolation but they were not incorporated in an approach that would progressively help language usage in a functional sense. Personally, it was disjointed and was leaving my child to figure out how all these things connect and apply when he is trying to express what is on his mind. I don't want my child reproducing scripts when he is capable of so much more. I want him to be able to access language and use it to express what he wants to say.

 

I've seen how SLP's target language teaching and how ABA therapists target language teaching and they are extremely similar. Maybe you're used to old-school type drills but my DD's ABA program is naturalistic.

 

The main difference between what I've seen SLP's do and ABA therapists do is the articulation work. The SLP's have training on getting clients to produce the various speech sounds correctly while ABA therapists don't target speech (as opposed to language).

 

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[PeterPan]

See if this works.  I warn you, I'm having a crooked sort of day.  The tape is on crooked and I didn't get it starting at the same spots all perfectly like I normally do.  He doesn't normally lie on the floor when I do it, btw.  Normally he just stands.  It's just that we did pictures for gymnastics and he was totally maxed out on anything to do with cameras.  

 

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[Mom28GreatKids]

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[PeterPan]

A dc still has volition, even when we have their sensory under control, lol.  They still have just I don't want to be here, this is hard.  

 

But yeah, I get what you're saying.  It would be really cool if you could get TL next.  Is he going to be getting OT?  I'm sorry, I always forget.  

[Mom28GreatKids]

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[PeterPan]

If they have Therapeutic Listening, they can send it home with you to do at home.  It has been really great for my ds, also very calming.  You notice a theme here, lol.  

[Mom28GreatKids]

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[Crimson Wife]

As I'm studying to become a SLP, obviously I'm a fan of children who would benefit from receiving services from a SLP getting them. But frankly, we saw bigger improvement in language from a few months of ABA than we did from a full year of seeing a SLP. The only reason I resumed the speech therapy was the hearing loss (and we have to drive an hour into San Francisco to a specialty clinic to get something other than what ABA does).

 

Children who have specifically speech issues (apraxia, articulation disorder, hearing loss-related articulation issues, etc.) really do need to see a SLP. Those with language delay due to autism and no speech issues may do just as well (if not better) with ABA.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Crimson Wife

[PeterPan]

Crimson, would you say part of it is the *time* ABA puts into the language development?  An SLP might see a dc 1-2 hours a week, sometimes 3 or 4 with certain therapy approaches.  ABA providers might be working many hours per day!  And I think that's very similar to what we do at home (Cricket, me, anyone) when we start targeting language things.  Can  you tell us more about how ABA works on language?  I get the impression it tends to be woven in as goals.  I've seen some DT things, independent work stations with language materials, etc., but I think once you get to that provider level a lot of it is naturalistic, woven in, yes?  And I ask, because I wondered what the providers would do to work on language if we had the funding.  If I don't fight for that funding, then I'm stuck doing it all myself, meaning I wanna make sure I'm doing something that is roughly equivalent.  :)

 

I know I'm on the other side of this, getting so much SLP and not getting the ABA, and I keep wishing the SLP could bring that sort of holistic vision of language development.  It's really down in the weeds, and by the time we work on motor planning, there's just nothing left to that.  And it really does seem so niched.  Like they sort of know this stuff in their heads, but they aren't going through every step of language development in a nitpicky way the way the ASD forms do.  The behaviorist had us do two (Vineland and something else) and they were just super nitpitpicky looking at development, WAY beyond what the SLP was doing.  And to me, I'm needing that perspective to fill in those holes and say you might have a lot of language, but these are the steps you're missing.  

 

With ds, the net effect of missing those developmental steps is that he just sounds quirky.  You can't even put your finger on WHY, because he DOES have a lot of speech.  Then you go through the developmental lists for language and go OH, that's what was missing.  

 

But me, I'm like Cricket, in that I'm gonna take brilliance from ANYONE.  But I do think there could be that reaction too, like if you haven't intersected with materials from one of the disciplines, then when you get them it's like WOW, that's what I was looking for!  

[Lecka]

I think it is harmful to let pass statements steering parents away from ABA, when their children may have language delays related to autism.

 

There could be a person reading here, whose child does have language delays because of autism. I don't think it is helpful not to challenge claims about ABA that give an inaccurate representation, when it may steer a parent away from an excellent source of help.

 

Or maybe someone will read here and later have a friend in this situation. I feel very sad to think of a child missing out, bc a friend told another friend she heard that ABA was not very good for teaching language skills.

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[Lecka]

You know, Lecka, I agree that books will appeal to us for different reasons. My youngest did imitation well from very young and his receptive language was high. The expressive was the issue. But I think, since I have had to work with my son myself, the most useful resources to me have been those that have offered the most practical advice, with examples. My ABA book (A Work in Progress) was one of those practical resources for me. Snow's book is useful also, but targets more moderate to severe cases. Definitely though, the ones that have been most useful have been those that best fit my boys and those that could fit well with my style and approach.

 

I think that in Marie's case, since her son has issues with speech, the reason why some books that are geared towards kids with autism may prove to be useful, is because many kids on the spectrum also have language delays at various levels and in different areas.

 

Ittleman's book was written with people with aphasia in mind:

 

http://www.asha.org/public/speech/disorders/Aphasia/#signs

 

My youngest has had difficulty in the area of producing language (if you look at the link), and more specifically, putting words together to form sentences. Working with his ability to reproduce language via scripting and imitation (like in my ABA book) did help but it was more stilted and progress was slower for the specific issue my youngest has had with language. The faster progress came when I discovered Ittleman's book because I could figure out the level my son was at specifically and target the area that he needed help. He has come a long way now and I owe this to Ittleman's book :)

 

 

Marie, I can only share what I had to do given the situation I was faced with. Here's what was going on during the time my boys saw the developmental pediatrician. They were evaluated the same year the article was written and in the same province as the case in the article.

 

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/british-columbia/child-who-doesn-t-speak-waits-2-years-for-therapy-1.1348652

 

My oldest did not have a language delay and since my youngest wasn't nonverbal he got a referral for ABA, not speech. ABA approval was dependent on further testing with a one year waiting list.

 

I'm a doer not an activist, and even if I fought the situation, it would not have made a bit of difference and would not have helped my son. I chose to put my efforts towards helping my son.

 

Also, with all my reading I already knew what the outcome of their evaluation would be and was already doing ABA myself with my youngest at home. I also knew that at my oldest son's level, he would not get any further referrals so I worked with him in the areas he needed. It was because of the ABA I had been doing with my youngest at home that he was able to focus and reply to all but one question from the developmental pediatrician. Both my boys were early learners across the board and that worked against them in regards to services also. My youngest read words, identified colors, shapes, numbers, etc. Some of these things he had already known for about a couple of years. The developmental pediatrician was more concerned about tackling my son's behaviors (his reenacting, which was often used as stims and perseverations back then, during uncomfortable situations), so he recommended ABA. Any book I have read where language delays were an issue in kids on the spectrum, I noticed it was the SLPs that made the difference when it came to speech. That is my personal observation based on the books I have read.

 

Marie, I recommend books based on our experience but I cannot speak for someone else's situation. I just know that in our situation, Ittleman's book was a God send in my eyes. I bought it on Kindle. You could ask your SLP also. They seem very eager and willing to help your son and the book can be useful to SLPs also, so they might be willing to buy it.

 

 

Targeting language by isolating vocabulary and syntax may help some kids but I think a more effective approach is to include speech therapy. Yes, my ABA book did target those areas in isolation but they were not incorporated in an approach that would progressively help language usage in a functional sense. Personally, it was disjointed and was leaving my child to figure out how all these things connect and apply when he is trying to express what is on his mind. I don't want my child reproducing scripts when he is capable of so much more. I want him to be able to access language and use it to express what he wants to say.

 

All of the bolded statements serve to steer people away from ABA for language needs related to autism.

 

You have noticed that "it was SLPs that made the difference when it came to speech." 

 

You "want him to be able to access language and use it to express what he wants to say" and this is something that your ABA book did not provide.  Now -- this is your personal experience, fine.  But you have *turned down ABA therapy* because it was *all that was offered to you.*   

 

You have described language acquired through ABA as "stilted." 

[Lecka]

Marie, I can only share what I had to do given the situation I was faced with. Here's what was going on during the time my boys saw the developmental pediatrician. They were evaluated the same year the article was written and in the same province as the case in the article.

 

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/british-columbia/child-who-doesn-t-speak-waits-2-years-for-therapy-1.1348652

 

My oldest did not have a language delay and since my youngest wasn't nonverbal he got a referral for ABA, not speech. ABA approval was dependent on further testing with a one year waiting list.

 

I'm a doer not an activist, and even if I fought the situation, it would not have made a bit of difference and would not have helped my son. I chose to put my efforts towards helping my son.

 

Also, with all my reading I already knew what the outcome of their evaluation would be and was already doing ABA myself with my youngest at home. I also knew that at my oldest son's level, he would not get any further referrals so I worked with him in the areas he needed. It was because of the ABA I had been doing with my youngest at home that he was able to focus and reply to all but one question from the developmental pediatrician. Both my boys were early learners across the board and that worked against them in regards to services also. My youngest read words, identified colors, shapes, numbers, etc. Some of these things he had already known for about a couple of years. The developmental pediatrician was more concerned about tackling my son's behaviors (his reenacting, which was often used as stims and perseverations back then, during uncomfortable situations), so he recommended ABA. Any book I have read where language delays were an issue in kids on the spectrum, I noticed it was the SLPs that made the difference when it came to speech. That is my personal observation based on the books I have read.

 

Marie, I recommend books based on our experience but I cannot speak for someone else's situation. I just know that in our situation, Ittleman's book was a God send in my eyes. I bought it on Kindle. You could ask your SLP also. They seem very eager and willing to help your son and the book can be useful to SLPs also, so they might be willing to buy it.

 

Then in the article you linked, I agree it is very sad this boy was not also receiving intensive speech therapy. 

 

However -- he was receiving $2,000/month that the family was using for "essential behavior therapy." 

 

"Christine and husband Chris Long are from Surrey, in B.C., where the provincial government claims it has a "no wait list policy" for autistic children like Finn.

In reality, that means parents of preschool children get $22,000 per year to spend on therapy, without delay, when their child is diagnosed." 

 

"The Longs say they spend all of their annual funding on essential behaviour therapy, which already costs $2,000 a month."

 

I have no idea why you wouldn't want to follow up on a "no wait list policy" that means "preschool children get $22,000 per year to spend on therapy, without delay, when their child is diagnosed."

 

I agree that is not such huge sum of money as it can seem, for a child who needs a lot of services, and I think it is really too bad. 

 

I also do not understand why you had no choice but to go it alone, when really you had a choice to complete further testing and get on a one-year waiting list for ABA.  I think the implication is ---- ABA was not going to help your child, so why get on the waiting list.  That is the implication to me.  Or that you didn't want him to get a label.  Those are the reasons I know of that people don't get on waiting lists, anyway.  When a child has a developmental delay, usually people will get on waiting lists if they think it will be good to have the service a year in the future.   

 

The bottom line is, when you share your personal experiences of what worked and what didn't work for you, you are steering people. 

 

And, with all your comments about how ABA is not as good for language, I think this shows your opinion about ABA for language, and I think it is a real disservice to people who may have a child with autism and language needs. 

 

I think it is great things are working out well for your kids.  But that does not give you a right to represent ABA for language as resulting in "stilted" language and "targeting language by isolating vocabulary and syntax."  It is just not a fair representation.

 

It is one thing to say "this book helped me."  I welcome that.

 

I don't welcome the compare and contrast, with the many comments about ABA and language. 

 

I don't know what book you got, or what year it was published, but when you say "I got this book about ABA, and here are all the problems it has with language," you are making a representation of how useful and effective ABA is for language. 

 

And -- it is just not okay with me. 

 

So -- I get you liked your ABA book for some things, fine, but you are not giving it any recommendation for language.  And, I think it is a criminal misrepresentation to make when someone could read here and take your comments about ABA and language to heart. 

 

So really -- please consider the effects of your words when you choose to share how you turned down ABA therapy b/c there was a one-year wait list (and I understand probably even longer, as you have to have wait lists for all the appointments, too) and then do not speak well of your personal experience with ABA for language. 

 

I have not come out and said it, but do you really think you can read one, two, or three books, and be equivalent to an experienced therapist?  But you will criticize ABA on this basis?  You will make blanket statements on this basis? 

 

It makes me sad, to think of anyone reading these comments  and thinking they were accurate. 

 

I can agree ----- these things could happen with a poorly-trained therapist, a low-quality therapist, a therapist who does not keep up with new techniques, or maybe somebody who just read one, two, or three books on the subject.  Fine.  But that is no reason to make these statements. 

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[PeterPan]

Remind me, does ABA use the ABLLS for the language development lists, or is there another list somewhere? 

[Lecka]

In a general way -- yes. But there are multiple lists and the therapist will choose what is most appropriate.

 

My son started with VB-MAPP and the Maurice curriculum (for school). He has added the ABLLS now.

 

At school the Maurice curriculum is what they use for my son's level, he started in "beginner" and he is up to early advanced/late intermediate now (3 years later).

 

They use the ABLLS at school with him, too.

 

But that is just what therapists and school people have chosen as appropriate for my son.

 

But -- yes, ABLLS is with ABA, though I believe special Ed teachers use it too even if they are not "doing ABA."

Edited February 1, 2016 by Lecka

[PeterPan]

Cricket, education in the US is very political.  The dept of ed just released a letter saying schools should say dyslexia.  Well fine, but ours already was. So you really can't conclude a lot about what is going on in US schools based on one letter from some overpaid bureacrat in the current administration.  It means some advocate/activist group went and complained.

 

Fact is IEP teams ALWAYS include the SLP for something like this.  No child in a US school with ASD is getting care without being seen by an SLP. 

 

SLPs are $100+ an hour in our state, while a behaviorist is only $75 an hour (only, ha) and the day to day providers for the therapy only $12-15 an hour.  It's OBVIOUS why we have to have a blended approach. You CANNOT AFFORD to have an SLP do all the work.  And, frankly, SLPs are not set up for this kind of therapy.  The providers with ABA are trying to get skills to carry over into natural settings and they're doing a variety of kinds of work over many hours a day (hopefully).  SLPs in the ps are seeing a dc 30 minutes a week.  Seriously.  That is what they offered my ds for SEVERE APRAXIA.  I kid you not!  30 minutes a week.  And that would NOT be with someone trained in his problem but just a jack of all trades SLP.  It takes multiple years to get trained in the technique my ds gets and that's on top of the multiple years they put in to get their masters.  

 

You just can't AFFORD to have that $$$ person do all this carryover and day to do application.  Higher level people make the plans and lower level people implement.

 

No one gets all the care they want (typically) and care is not ideal or equal across all socio-economic situations in our country.  It's not HOMOGENOUS either.  But I can *guarantee* you that that letter is reflective of activists in a political process.  They lobbied and wanted something said.  That might be the case some places and not others.

 

What I more commonly see is, NOT that things were not available, but that parents don't know how to TAKE ADVANTAGE of what there is. 

[Crimson Wife]

Crimson, would you say part of it is the *time* ABA puts into the language development?  An SLP might see a dc 1-2 hours a week, sometimes 3 or 4 with certain therapy approaches.  ABA providers might be working many hours per day!  And I think that's very similar to what we do at home (Cricket, me, anyone) when we start targeting language things.  Can  you tell us more about how ABA works on language?  I get the impression it tends to be woven in as goals.  I've seen some DT things, independent work stations with language materials, etc., but I think once you get to that provider level a lot of it is naturalistic, woven in, yes?  And I ask, because I wondered what the providers would do to work on language if we had the funding.

 

Part of it is the time (1 hr/week vs. 15-20, though not all of that is spent on language goals), but a lot of it also is that ABA takes a systematic approach to language development. The SLP's that we've worked with over the years (both with my DS when he was a toddler and then with DD2) have chosen appropriate goals based on the child's stage of development and specific speech & language difficulties. But it's not like the VB-MAPP and the ABLLS where there's a clear hierarchy and progression of skills.

 

Also, ABA has numbered S.D.'s (IIRC that stands for discrimantive stimuli) that get progressively more challenging. So the first S.D. might be learning the category word "furniture" and being able to sort toy furniture from toys in other categories. The second S.D. might be being able to name the category "furniture" when the child is asked, "What is a [name of a piece of furniture]?" The third S.D. might be giving examples of different pieces of furniture in response to the therapist's prompt, "Tell me some furniture." The next one might be retrieving a specific item in the room in response to a description that includes the word "furniture" (kind of like "I Spy"). This is the step that my DD is currently working on.

 

I don't remember the specific order of the S.D.'s and I may be skipping some of the intermediate steps but you get the idea. It's way more systematic than what I've seen SLP's do. But at the same time it's done in a very naturalistic way rather than sitting at a table doing flashcard drills.

 

I don't think my DD realizes that when the ABA therapists are "playing" with her that the questions they ask are designed to teach her certain skills. It's all interwoven with normal conversation (since conversational skills are also a big part of her ABA program) in a very naturalistic way.

[Crimson Wife]

Fact is IEP teams ALWAYS include the SLP for something like this.  No child in a US school with ASD is getting care without being seen by an SLP.

 

Unfortunately, this is not always true. The IEP assessment (initial and triennial) will always include the SLP and OT, but the child has to fall below a certain level on standardized assessments to qualify for services. I believe my state ed code defines it as more than 1 standard deviation below the mean, or <16th percentile. My DD does not qualify for vocabulary goals in her IEP because she scores too high in that area. She only qualifies under articulation, morphology (things like verb tenses), and syntax.

 

Now pushy parents (like me and probably most folks here) can get private SLP evals that include assessments of more advanced language skills & as long as those assessments are standardized and normed, they can be used to fight for SLP services. But most PS kids do not have parents knowledgeable enough and willing to stand up against district SPED administrators with their PhD.'s to do that. I'm not afraid to be the squeaky wheel and I've got the savvy to locate those outside resources. Most parents wouldn't have a clue. Not that they don't care about their kids just as much as I do, but the system is stacked against them. :sad: 

[Crimson Wife]

And as a future SLP, I intend to take some ABA courses as electives and get trained on the VB-MAPP even though I plan to specialize in working with the deaf & hard-of-hearing. While all the research on ABA's effectiveness has focused on those with ASD, I truly believe that dhh kids would also benefit from a more systematic approach to language development work. Right now there is a program called CASLLS designed by Sunshine Cottage for the Deaf in San Antonio that is pretty good. I'm hoping to get the chance to do one of their training workshops in the next year or so.

 

But I think getting some ABA training (probably not the full amount required for certification as a BCBA though) would make me a much more effective SLP.

[PeterPan]

Thanks Crimson for that explanation.  And you're right, it's that combo of actually having the language *and* how it's all organized in the brain.  I had NO CLUE my ds was having problems with sorting till we started a GEMS unit that required it.  So now I've got some things and we're working on it.  I found him sorting jumbo banagram letters a couple days ago, and it was like WOW that's cool.  I love when you see them trying a new skill, where it's actually FUN for them because it's just enough of a challenge and new.  For him, sorting letters into piles was that.  He thought he was playing his self-designed play, and I know his brain is trying to figure this stuff out.  

 

So now I just need to go through the lists.  I have some books, can look online, etc.  I have Pickles to Pickles, which has a ton of pictures that I think I can make work for this.  I just want to find, in that kind of casual, play-based way, where the holes are in each step.  And maybe there are none, but I bet there will be.  And these things affect their ability to organize thoughts for writing, to organize laundry to put away, etc., so they really are building important life skills.  And to me it's just fun.  Like if we can catch these things and have fun, no big deal.  It's not a distraction.  Like you say, we're always working on speech when we play, so it's never a loss to do things together.

 

And yes, I would totally agree, it's just way beyond what an SLP, at $110 an hour at our practice, is going to take the time to do.  If you have brief needs, fine.  But once you need a lot of time spent to make progress, you really have to have goals and use lower priced people to implement them.  

 

There's always something for people to be upset about with their dc's care.  So if people were complaining about too much ABA, well then how about the people frustrated about not enough ABA!  And people wish for more positive classes.  Well I look at the SBSK FB feed and think too much warm fuzzies, need to amp the therapy and stop wasting time.  ;)  Not that warm fuzzies are a waste, but they can't be the ONLY thing either.  And maybe it's not at that school, but that's what he SHOWS.  It's almost as if to imply if we all just were more warm fuzzy things would better.  I'm sorry, but my ds gets better as he has therapy.  We need BOTH.  

 

There's ALWAYS something people are wanting more of or wanting tweaked.  I think there are probably even seasons for things.  Like is, it possible the kids in that SBSK class got lots of heavy intervention when they were younger, and now they're 10, 12, and that's just it, stick 'em in a room and whatever they have there is what they have?  Is that how it rolls?  

[PeterPan]

Just to answer my own question here, this is a link I think Lecka had given me ages ago.  http://www.trackingsheets.net It's tracking sheets (workpages) for ABLLS stuff.  I fiddled around with it a bit today, and I think we can do some of these activities with the Pickles to Penguins picture cards, no problem.  I'm thinking specifically of the feature/class/function things.  I'm really kind of excited about it, because it's something that translates well into academics.  Like, I was thinking how we could sort coins, same deal.  Obviously it doesn't have all the features/class, etc., but it's sorting.  I think it was Joyce Show that was commenting on how we just think oh money is so obviously easy, but it's not.  They're having to sort AND do the math AND remember the names AND...  So I think that could even be useful, just to sort coins and play around with them like that.  

 

Ds had issues with same/different for a long, long time.  He would say things in ST and the SLP would comment on it.  But she never went *Oh wow, do you REALIZE that's a marker for the ASD. Let's get that testing going or refer you off for ABA* kwim?  So it's totally frustrating to me that his strengths would cover these weaknesses and people would go problem, what problem?  Because they're there.  It's just masked by other strengths.  

 

Kbutton has talked about this, how the basic issues like sorting and classifying come back to haunt them later in writing, where they're supposed to be doing very abstract, conceptual sorting and classifying.  So I don't think this is a non-worthwhile thing, that's for sure.  I think it's very worth our time.

Edited February 1, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[kbutton]

All of the bolded statements serve to steer people away from ABA for language needs related to autism.

 

You have noticed that "it was SLPs that made the difference when it came to speech." 

 

You "want him to be able to access language and use it to express what he wants to say" and this is something that your ABA book did not provide.  Now -- this is your personal experience, fine.  But you have *turned down ABA therapy* because it was *all that was offered to you.*   

 

You have described language acquired through ABA as "stilted." 

 

I have been looking at this thread from time to time but not commenting because it's kind of dancing between issues my two kids have without totally intersecting. Cricket, without trying to just dump on you or gang up, I think Lecka is making a point about how your words leave a cumulative impression. What you've said on this thread would make me leary of ABA, and that is a disservice to those seeking information. We have access to a BCBA who knows what my son needs, and she can use ABA if it helps. It would have been valuable when he was little. It's valuable now in that even when she does not use ABA with him, her training informs how she reaches him and helps him makes sense of a goal she has for him. She has pointed out to me that a lot of what SLPs do is not as effective as it could be because the SLPs are not trained in behavioral stuff. As I've been learning more, I completely agree.

 

You took Lecka to task for finding your opinion discouraging and disparaging--you are entitled to an opinion, and she is entitled to (nicely) show you how she (and at least I) found that opinion to be fairly prejudicial. I think it's fine for you to state what helped you, but it would help a lot if you try to connect WHY she finds your characterization of ABA and the words you used to be disparaging. It's not like she's criticizing your approach for your kids. She just doesn't want your results with your kids to cloud the fact that not everyone is going to have that happen. Some people NEED ABA to get help with their kids. 

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[PeterPan]

Cricket, just as an observation, isn't there a larger context to that quote you gave about ABA instruction?  He specifically mentions SLDs not receiving evidence-based intervention.  That was a reason I specifically went to a psych specializing in SLDs, because I felt it would be more likely that the SLDs would go undiagnosed if I went to a clinic focusing on ASD.  I don't know if that's *accurate*, but I've *heard* it is.  And when you think about heavily-bent ABA and ASD instruction is toward whole word, it's obvious that would be a problem for kids with ASD + SLDs.  There's also discussion of underdiagnosis in the ID community, which of course would be a significant (40%? depending on what you believe) of the ASD community.

 

In other words, you're taking it as saying DTT doesn't always work, and what he *might* be saying is that DTT isn't the best way to intervene for SLDs, that those need to be identified and have appropriate intervention, that you can't just do DTT on everyone for everything, irrespective of SLDs.

Edited February 3, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Lecka]

The way I read this, the normalized language training they are referring to IS ABA.

 

It just seems like this article is about techniques within ABA.

 

I am not positive, though. I could be wrong.

 

Edit -- I only saw the last post and didn't realize there were other posts.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Lecka

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[Lecka]

I have read the parent book for Early Start Denver. It does seem really good.

 

Unfortunately it is not available in my area, and my son was not diagnosed early enough (iirc) to be in the age group that Early Start Denver is designed for.

 

This is as I remember it, it has been a little while since I have read it.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Lecka

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[Crimson Wife]

I have read the parent book for Early Start Denver. It does seem really good.

 

Unfortunately it is not available in my area, and my son was not diagnosed early enough (iirc) to be in the age group that Early Start Denver is designed for.

 

This is as I remember it, it has been a little while since I have read it.

 

UC Davis MIND Institute has a variation of ESDM that is what the EI preschool my DD attended uses. At that time she had a diagnosis of "global developmental delay" and we were on the waitlist for the developmental pediatrician. It was helpful but was not as systematic in its approach to language development as her ABA program has been.

[Mom28GreatKids]

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Edited February 6, 2016 by Mom28GreatKids

[Lecka]

Thanks for sharing about the pre-school program.

 

I do not have the opportunity to find out about it beyond reading the parent book, so I really appreciate it.

 

I thought it was good with play, I bet it was a fun program for your daughter.

[Crimson Wife]

CrimsonWife, do you live near Davis? We loves there while dh for his PhD. :-)

 

Sent from my XT1049 using Tapatalk

 

We're in the East Bay about halfway between Davis and S.F. We are closer mileage-wise to S.F. but with non-rush-hour traffic, it's about the same timewise to drive.

[Crimson Wife]

I thought it was good with play, I bet it was a fun program for your daughter.

 

It was good for her social development to be in a small-group setting and even knowing what I know now about the autism diagnosis, I still wouldn't have wanted to skip the preschool in favor of only ABA hours. I wish that we had gotten the wrap-around ABA that she qualified for later on.

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[Mom28GreatKids]

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[Mom28GreatKids]

 

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[Crimson Wife]

ESDM was developed for kids 12-48 months and it is also ABA.

https://www.autismspeaks.org/what-autism/treatment/early-start-denver-model-esdm

 

The point is, there are many variations of ABA nowadays. Some are still based on traditional ABA, others fall under the normalized, and there are probably other variations depending on the center. What you have described with your daughter sounds like it fits under the normalized. What is described in the VB book by Barbera is not.

 

 

My daughter's ABA program is based in a large part on the VB-MAPP so it is inaccurate to say that it isn't VB. I get VB-MAPP testing results every 6 months with updated goals from her BCBA.