Phonics trouble. Normal or red flags?

[Faithful_Steward]

DS5 (almost 6) is the fourth child I have taught to read. He can consistently remember the basic sound of probably half of his letters. He can not seem to internalize letter names AT ALL. I've never had to teach letter sounds before so I'm not sure if this is normal at his age or if this is a red flag.

 

We did no formal work before kindergarten. He played Starfall and watched the Leap Frog dvds just like his older siblings. We have been working consistently on letter sounds since August. He absolutely melts down with anything phonics/handwriting related (even interactive stuff like letter tiles and games) with the exception of ETC A. He is able to distinguish beginning sounds in ETC.

 

Yes, he's still young. But this is just SO HARD. It just feels like we're moving at a snail's pace and two steps forward, one step back. I know all kids, even within the same family, are their own person. I don't want to compare him to his siblings. But at the same time, this is significantly harder for him compared to them, and it just makes me wonder if there is something else going on. KWIM?

 

He loves "school". He adores math and blasts through it. He is bright and has a quick mind. He has no real interest in learning to read, so it might just be a personality issue. Maybe it is a maturity issue? But at almost-6, it shouldn't be this hard for a bright kid to internalize his letter sounds, right?

 

He is on the waiting list for the neurodevelopmental pediatrician. We recently went through the process for one of our older children who has adhd, dysgraphia, and neurological issues (static). I spoke to the doctor quite a bit about ds5 and we're almost positive he has adhd. Doctor suggested he is likely highly gifted like his siblings, but I'm not sure how much testing they will do because of his age. So basically we're on the waiting list for a full eval across the board, but we're waiting for another 6-8 months.

 

In the meantime, am I right to see red flags? Am I overreacting?

 

[Faithful_Steward]

Oh, and at this point I have given up on handwriting on paper. We are using a chalkboard and sponge to work on letter/number formation. I can't deal with the drama! My older son has dysgraphia and I had NO IDEA. He never had these meltdowns. So I'm thinking little guy may have dysgraphia as well. I would appreciate any suggestions for dealing with this, too!

[Heathermomster]

What are you using to teach reading?

[Faithful_Steward]

^{We're still stuck on letter sounds! I can't even get him to blend s-a, even though he firmly knows the sound for both of those letters.}

 

^{Right now we're using letter tiles, foam puzzles, flashcards, songs, and games I make up to practice letter sounds. He finished ETC A (minus the handwriting) which has worked on some phonemic awareness stuff. I usually use Phonics Pathways to teach phonics, but he isn't to a place where he can work through that book yet.}

[forty-two]

^{We're still stuck on letter sounds! I can't even get him to blend s-a, even though he firmly knows the sound for both of those letters.}

 

To me this does sound like a red flag.  Does he have any other phonemic awareness difficulties?

 

My dds both have had real problems learning to blend (along with other phonemic awareness/processing issues).  The biggest thing that has helped is the Dekodiphukan (Decode-if-you-can) sound pictures.  (Dekodiphukan is an out of print reading program that is available in its entirely for free online; if you have an iPad, they've put all the materials together into a set of free apps that make it *very* user friendly.  I've read through the rhyming storybook that introduces all the sounds and sound pictures a dozen times with my kids - they love it and it makes learning the sound pictures effortless.  This is the explanation of how to use the apps, and in what order: http://www.center.edu/iPad/Images/Sequence.pdf) 

 

I don't know what it is, but it was easier for my dds to learn to blend the sound pictures into words than to do the same with letters.  Dd7 learned to blend through playing the PP train game with sound picture tiles (that I made using the free Dekodiphukan font file), over and over and over again.  I have made *all* the words in her lessons (Let's Read: A Linguistic Approach - which I like because it goes very, very slowly in the beginning, working through 36 lessons of CVC words) into flashcards with sound pictures on one side and letters on the other (260-odd CVC words, and now 54 CCVC words and counting ;)).  She uses them for spelling - spells from the sound picture side and then reads back to me what she wrote (my older daughter is using them for cursive practice and covert blending practice ;)).  And for the first 8-10 lessons we worked through the words with the sound picture tiles, training them together a la the PP train game, before working with letter tiles (and training *those* together), before moving to reading from the book.

 

I love those sound pictures so much I want to marry them ;) :lol: :hurray: .

Edited December 17, 2015 by forty-two

[kbutton]

Yes, red flags. I would be most worried about the reading stuff, but the other things may be more than just a "little boy" problem too.

 

Others will hopefully chime in with some recommendations, but I would definitely recommend looking at eyes--use a COVD optometrist who will check not only acuity but what the eyes are doing. Most optometrists will not look as carefully as a COVD at those other things.

 

I would be thinking an OT evaluation for the handwriting. 

 

For the reading, one place recommended on here for reading struggles is to cut to the chase and do the Barton screening test by Susan Barton. If you want to know more about her expertise with reading/dyslexia, she's interviewed in the archives of this podcast: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/coffee-klatch-special-needs/id385107960?mt=2. 

 

You could have one thing going on or several. It often takes more digging with the gifted kiddos to find out what's up. They hide their secrets better, lol! (I have two gifted kiddos with exceptionalities also).

[PeterPan]

Jumping to the end, but yes that profile could get him a dyslexia label.  My ds got it diagnosed at newly 6, because the discrepancy between IQ and achievement at that point is SO HUGE.  So there's NO reason to wait.  I'd start with a CTOPP from somebody, anybody, because you can get that done quickly.  What's the neuroped for?  You suspect ASD?

[Lecka]

I think there are red flags. 

 

There are a lot of directions possible to go in, but it does not sound like a "wait and see" situation to me.

 

I think you need to plan on teaching him things your other kids have picked up on by exposure.  It is nice they picked these things up from exposure, good for them, but it is not really bad that this other child probably needs to be actually taught these things. 

 

But -- I think it is time to look into something more explicit, more involved than ETC.  ETC is good, but it is honestly going to be like a supplemental program for a lot of kids.  For kids who are picking it up easily, yes, it can be a complete program.  For kids who are showing they need more ---- I honestly consider it supplemental.

 

I think you have options for moving up to more explicit/involved programs.

 

I think there are also red flags for dyslexia.  It is worth looking at the Susan Barton website.  A book you can read is "Overcoming Dyslexia."  It really just means, it will be more effort to learn to read, and maybe take certain methods.  It does not mean kids can't/don't learn to read.  It means it may take longer and it may take more direct/explicit instruction, with more repetition, and fewer "look, I'm just taking off in reading" moments. 

 

But if what you have tried so far is exposure and ETC, then I don't think you have to automatically jump to dyslexia.  I think you can move toward more explicit/direct reading programs. 

 

But yes, it is time to make that move.

 

For something about me -- my kids are in public school.  My kids have done ETC in younger grades, b/c the teacher prints off the pages, and they can do them.  It is really, really far from being the full reading curriculum they use, though.  What they use was not even enough for my oldest son (hence -- here I am, lol).  But -- just "hey, we are exposing you to some letters, we are doing ETC" ----- yes, that is enough for some kids.  But a lot of kids need more instruction than that.  And then some kids need even more instruction. 

 

I feel like -- exposure plus ETC is not a solution this year, I don't think it will suddenly become a solution next year.

 

But there are a lot of ways to add in more practice, do practice in different ways, etc.  I think it is a time to look for things like that, whether that means buying a certain program that includes that, or doing it more informally.  And then, when you know you have stepped up the instruction, look and see, is there more progress, or is progress still not coming.  If it is still not coming, you can definitely look more towards things like Barton.

 

I think you have a feeling for how much he has done, and how much of a hard time he is having.  If he is seriously having a hard time, it is time to look more at Barton and things like that.

 

If it is more like ---- you are doing what you did with your other kids, and you see that it is not the same, but you also feel like ----- doing a more intermediate program that is just more involved/explicit, but not all the way at "this is designed for kids who need the most help," then I think that is fine, too.

 

If you are just asking, should you do the same things, and expect a year to change things, I would say, "no."  There are red flags.  But I don't think that needing to do more than Leap Frog videos plus ETC, means there is a red flag, so much as a need to be taught in a more direct/explicit way.  It could only mean that. 

 

B/c really, it is really nice for the kids who pick things up easily with reading, but for a lot of kids, they can need more instruction that that, and it doesn't mean they have dyslexia.  It just means they need more instruction.  It is not bad -- it is just different.

 

You could be taking this for granted if this child was your oldest.  Or, if this child were your oldest, you could be feeling like "things are just NOT clicking for how much we have done." 

 

Go with your gut!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

 

 

 

[Heathermomster]

I think that it is excellent that you are getting the full eval.  I see red flags all over the place especially since there is a history of dysgraphia and ADHD in your family. 

 

I can only suggest what has been mentioned by PPs. Get the eyes examined by a COVD VT to rule out any convergence or binocular vision issues. For the handwriting, try to incorporate cross body exercises, daily wheelbarrow walking, and swim or gymnastics. One hour with a competent OT should rule out any developmental motor (prim reflex), motor planning, visual perception, balance, vestibular, or pincer/core strength issues.

 

The book Dyslexic Advantage is a very good book to read after Overcoming Dyslexia by Shaywitz.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2015 by Heathermomster

[Lecka]

Heather, do you mean "competent OT?"  I agree!  Very worth it.  I forget about Dyslexic Advantage, b/c I didn't buy a copy but checked it out from the library, but I agree, it is very worthwhile, too. 

[Heathermomster]

Heather, do you mean "competent OT?"  I agree!  Very worth it.  I forget about Dyslexic Advantage, b/c I didn't buy a copy but checked it out from the library, but I agree, it is very worthwhile, too. 

Yes...I meant OT and will fix that now.   :D

[Lecka]

I started reading that, and I was thinking, "wow, the VT we went to didn't do any of that!!!!"  (We went for just an eval and ruled out convergence insufficiency.) 

[Faithful_Steward]

To me this does sound like a red flag.  Does he have any other phonemic awareness difficulties?

 

My dds both have had real problems learning to blend (along with other phonemic awareness/processing issues).  The biggest thing that has helped is the Dekodiphukan (Decode-if-you-can) sound pictures.  (Dekodiphukan is an out of print reading program that is available in its entirely for free online; if you have an iPad, they've put all the materials together into a set of free apps that make it *very* user friendly.  I've read through the rhyming storybook that introduces all the sounds and sound pictures a dozen times with my kids - they love it and it makes learning the sound pictures effortless.  This is the explanation of how to use the apps, and in what order: http://www.center.edu/iPad/Images/Sequence.pdf) 

 

I don't know what it is, but it was easier for my dds to learn to blend the sound pictures into words than to do the same with letters.  Dd7 learned to blend through playing the PP train game with sound picture tiles (that I made using the free Dekodiphukan font file), over and over and over again.  I have made *all* the words in her lessons (Let's Read: A Linguistic Approach - which I like because it goes very, very slowly in the beginning, working through 36 lessons of CVC words) into flashcards with sound pictures on one side and letters on the other (260-odd CVC words, and now 54 CCVC words and counting ;)).  She uses them for spelling - spells from the sound picture side and then reads back to me what she wrote (my older daughter is using them for cursive practice and covert blending practice ;)).  And for the first 8-10 lessons we worked through the words with the sound picture tiles, training them together a la the PP train game, before working with letter tiles (and training *those* together), before moving to reading from the book.

 

I love those sound pictures so much I want to marry them ;) :lol: :hurray: .

 

What sort of difficulties should I look out for? Sometimes I don't *see* things, KWIM? Dekodiphukan looks brilliant!

Yes, red flags. I would be most worried about the reading stuff, but the other things may be more than just a "little boy" problem too.

 

Others will hopefully chime in with some recommendations, but I would definitely recommend looking at eyes--use a COVD optometrist who will check not only acuity but what the eyes are doing. Most optometrists will not look as carefully as a COVD at those other things.

 

I would be thinking an OT evaluation for the handwriting. 

 

For the reading, one place recommended on here for reading struggles is to cut to the chase and do the Barton screening test by Susan Barton. If you want to know more about her expertise with reading/dyslexia, she's interviewed in the archives of this podcast: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/coffee-klatch-special-needs/id385107960?mt=2. 

 

You could have one thing going on or several. It often takes more digging with the gifted kiddos to find out what's up. They hide their secrets better, lol! (I have two gifted kiddos with exceptionalities also).

Thanks! I found the screening and I'll give it to him this week.

 

Jumping to the end, but yes that profile could get him a dyslexia label.  My ds got it diagnosed at newly 6, because the discrepancy between IQ and achievement at that point is SO HUGE.  So there's NO reason to wait.  I'd start with a CTOPP from somebody, anybody, because you can get that done quickly.  What's the neuroped for?  You suspect ASD?

 

 Yeah, the discrepancy is what really bothers me. I used to tutor ps kindergarteners who were having trouble learning letters and sounds, but this just seems different to me. What is CTOPP? The neuroped is because both he and older brother were flagged for ASD at one point. The neuroped hasn't seen him yet but he gave us some advice to help him with his insane sleep issues. Now that we have that under control, we're not seeing a lot of those red flags anymore. The doctor still wants to see him because we both feel like he could benefit from the full evaluation. I tried to call the school to see if I could get him evaluated but they are unable to take/return calls.

I think there are red flags. 

 

There are a lot of directions possible to go in, but it does not sound like a "wait and see" situation to me.

 

I think you need to plan on teaching him things your other kids have picked up on by exposure.  It is nice they picked these things up from exposure, good for them, but it is not really bad that this other child probably needs to be actually taught these things. 

 

But -- I think it is time to look into something more explicit, more involved than ETC.  ETC is good, but it is honestly going to be like a supplemental program for a lot of kids.  For kids who are picking it up easily, yes, it can be a complete program.  For kids who are showing they need more ---- I honestly consider it supplemental.

 

I think you have options for moving up to more explicit/involved programs.

 

I think there are also red flags for dyslexia.  It is worth looking at the Susan Barton website.  A book you can read is "Overcoming Dyslexia."  It really just means, it will be more effort to learn to read, and maybe take certain methods.  It does not mean kids can't/don't learn to read.  It means it may take longer and it may take more direct/explicit instruction, with more repetition, and fewer "look, I'm just taking off in reading" moments. 

 

But if what you have tried so far is exposure and ETC, then I don't think you have to automatically jump to dyslexia.  I think you can move toward more explicit/direct reading programs. 

 

But yes, it is time to make that move.

 

For something about me -- my kids are in public school.  My kids have done ETC in younger grades, b/c the teacher prints off the pages, and they can do them.  It is really, really far from being the full reading curriculum they use, though.  What they use was not even enough for my oldest son (hence -- here I am, lol).  But -- just "hey, we are exposing you to some letters, we are doing ETC" ----- yes, that is enough for some kids.  But a lot of kids need more instruction than that.  And then some kids need even more instruction. 

 

I feel like -- exposure plus ETC is not a solution this year, I don't think it will suddenly become a solution next year.

 

But there are a lot of ways to add in more practice, do practice in different ways, etc.  I think it is a time to look for things like that, whether that means buying a certain program that includes that, or doing it more informally.  And then, when you know you have stepped up the instruction, look and see, is there more progress, or is progress still not coming.  If it is still not coming, you can definitely look more towards things like Barton.

 

I think you have a feeling for how much he has done, and how much of a hard time he is having.  If he is seriously having a hard time, it is time to look more at Barton and things like that.

 

If it is more like ---- you are doing what you did with your other kids, and you see that it is not the same, but you also feel like ----- doing a more intermediate program that is just more involved/explicit, but not all the way at "this is designed for kids who need the most help," then I think that is fine, too.

 

If you are just asking, should you do the same things, and expect a year to change things, I would say, "no."  There are red flags.  But I don't think that needing to do more than Leap Frog videos plus ETC, means there is a red flag, so much as a need to be taught in a more direct/explicit way.  It could only mean that. 

 

B/c really, it is really nice for the kids who pick things up easily with reading, but for a lot of kids, they can need more instruction that that, and it doesn't mean they have dyslexia.  It just means they need more instruction.  It is not bad -- it is just different.

 

You could be taking this for granted if this child was your oldest.  Or, if this child were your oldest, you could be feeling like "things are just NOT clicking for how much we have done." 

 

Go with your gut!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

What else should I be doing? I've taught Abeka phonics and I usually use Phonics/Reading Pathways, but you just can't progress without learning letter sounds. We've done blend ladders and he melts down. We use tiles and he melts down. I'm trying to imagine a more explicit phonics method than PP or Abeka, but I can't even imagine what that would look like. But then I see the sound cards a pp mentioned and I can see where that might lead to blending, so apparently there ARE more incremental (?) methods out there that I know nothing about.  What do you recommend?

 

I think that it is excellent that you are getting the full eval.  I see red flags all over the place especially since there is a history of dysgraphia and ADHD in your family. 

 

I can only suggest what has been mentioned by PPs. Get the eyes examined by a COVD VT to rule out any convergence or binocular vision issues. For the handwriting, try to incorporate cross body exercises, daily wheelbarrow walking, and swim or gymnastics. One hour with a competent OT should rule out any developmental motor (prim reflex), motor planning, visual perception, balance, vestibular, or pincer/core strength issues.

 

The book Dyslexic Advantage is a very good book to read after Overcoming Dyslexia by Shaywitz.

 

Thanks :) We have processing and working memory discrepancies, too. I don't really even understand how to address everything yet. I'm paralyzed with too much information right now! I didn't realize an OT can do all of those things. A doctor had recommended an OT eval for my older son but they completely missed his dysgraphia, hypotonia, and a few other things. This son has amazing core strength (he stands on his head a lot! lol) but he's always falling all over the place during his soccer games. It is weird.

 

Ladies, thank you so much for your input. I feel like I waited too long for interventions with my older kids and I didn't know if I was overreacting the other way this time. I'm going to start with the Barton screening and see how that goes.

[PeterPan]

^{We're still stuck on letter sounds! I can't even get him to blend s-a, even though he firmly knows the sound for both of those letters.}

 

^{Right now we're using letter tiles, foam puzzles, flashcards, songs, and games I make up to practice letter sounds. He finished ETC A (minus the handwriting) which has worked on some phonemic awareness stuff. I usually use Phonics Pathways to teach phonics, but he isn't to a place where he can work through that book yet.}

Here's the link to the Barton pretest.  Any typical newly 5 yo should be able to pass this.   Students | Barton   At newly 6 with a gifted 90+%ile) IQ, he should be reading at a late first grade level.  At this point his phonological processing (ability to blend sounds, add/delete, etc.) sounds far enough behind that it would show up on a CTOPP.  If you get a baseline CTOPP now (which can be done by a dyslexia school, the Scottish Rite, many dyslexia tutors like from the list on Learning Ally, an SLP, ANYONE), you can get that baseline, allowing you to intervene.  

 

I think it's a mistake to wait on intervention when you're talking about a gifted IQ dc.  There's NO reason to wait to intervene.  If he fails that pre-test, the Barton site has your instructions.  Most likely the parts he'll fail will result in him needing LIPS first.  There really isn't a substitute for LIPS, and LIPS is fabulous and easy to implement.  You could buy it now and start in January in fact.  There is NO benefit to waiting.  The only reason to wait at all is to get that CTOPP, and what I (personally) would say is get the CTOPP while you're waiting for LIPS to come in the mail.  I say that, and my ds was easily diagnosed at newly 6 even with LIPS exposure.  That diagnosis was reconfirmed by another psych months later after quite a bit of Barton.  So it's not like it becomes undiagnosable.  I'm just saying to be tidy, I'd get that done.

 

Learning Ally does have a list of psychs who specialize in dyslexia.  Honestly, given that your situation may turn out to be more complex than you anticipate (which is the reason your ped is sending you to a developmental ped), I think it's reasonable to go ahead and get something done now by someone who can get you in earlier who can get you going with SOMETHING and handle the developmental questions later.  My ds is gifted with SLDs and more, and for him it took multiple evals to get it sorted out.  That would really have to be some kind of awesome ped to be worth waiting for.  How long is he going to spend?  Last person on the board here who talked about a dev. ped got 1 hour to answer the question of autism.   :svengo:   I just spent 3 hours doing interviews and 2 hours of observation and interaction with a behaviorist to get a 2nd confirmation of my ds' ASD diagnosis. Our first diagnosing psych also spent 3-4 days and 6-8 hours. But oh yeah some ped in some office is gonna sit there and in one hour go oh yeah, got that sewn up.  They must be doing some kind of team approach with a psych or assistant doing testing??  Surely??  Whatever, I'm constantly cynical.  

 

But my point is, 8 months in the life of your gifted child is a school year.  So your dc, who should be reading at a late 1st grade level by his b-day, could be left without intervention while waiting for some ped appt that may or may not be thorough enough sort out the SLD issues *and* the developmental issues.  That's really something to sort out from your advocacy position, kwim?  Because somebody could get you in sooner to get this SLD question addressed.  

 

And meltdowns?  I'd have more questions than just ADHD with meltdowns.  But it sounds like you're on top of that.  Get his hearing checked while you're at it.  Not the ped thing but with an audiologist.  Just a cover your butt kind of thing.  Around here, we can get it done at the university AND get a SCAN3 (CAPD) screening (which obviously he's not old enough for yet!) for $35.  That's just $35.  But it *can* happen there's more going on and it can be a really good thing to eliminate, especially if there have been issues with him not responding or having trouble in background noise.  In either of those situations, I'd be in there.  I took my ds in at the same age/stage, because he was both not responding *and* had trouble with the phonological processing.  We wanted to make sure audiology was not part of it.  For him it was not, but it was a really good thing to eliminate as an explanation.  They did end up seeing the not responding thing, and we later got our ASD diagnosis.  

 

You might set up a play tent or an enclosed space (a spare room, a closet, an unused pantry, whatever) for a retreat for when he has those meltdowns.  Put soft things in it and some nifty things for sensory (magic wands, nubby balls, soft things, furry things, smelly things, a lava lamp, etc.).  Practice using it several times a day when he's *not* melting down (let's go practice calming in our safe space, whatever) so that when he needs that retreat, it's a tool he's comfortable using.

Edited December 18, 2015 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

FS, since you said it, yes, I'll say it.  You probably have a much more complex situation.  And you know our first eval, when ds was newly 6, was really hard, at least for me, to pin down whether there was autism.  The psych was, well I have NO POLITE FRENCH for this...  Man I get riled up!  Anyways, I'm just going to say that now, at newly 7, I'M NO LONGER CONFUSED.  

 

That's why I'm saying, to me, I would get some kind of eval pronto, soon, now, and get the SLD questions discussed.  You can stay on that 6-8 month list, sure.  See if any Hoagies' list psychs are near you.  You want an IQ and a CTOPP.  If they give you crap about not doing the CTOPP, move on.  Honestly, my ds also needed the CELF.

 

Ok, I'll say this.  If the question is ASD, why not a full clinic?  The ps in our area can't do an eval like that.  You get an observation by an SLP.  For real.  They just can't do it.  So then the parents get denied, protest, and go through the independent eval process.  It's nuclear, horrible, and protracted.  Ask me how I know.  They FIRED the person who handled our case.  Kbutton did better at her school, but even so they weren't DIAGNOSING, only acknowledging, kwim?  

 

Right now we're getting our 2nd diagnosis, this time with a behaviorist who works under a psych with an autism provider.  She is the most intuitive, amazing person to work with.  WOW what an eval.  Honestly, if ASD is your question, to get an eval in a set-up like that, where you have an experienced BCBA, a psych who does nothing but ASD, an OT, and SLP, all as a team, that would be STELLAR.  Not one hour in a room with some ped.  Maybe your 6-8 month wait ped has a whole team like that, but I'm saying that's what you want to look for.  And with my ds, I was really skeptical about the some of the clinics because they use students. I'm sorry, but how is a STUDENT supposed to have experience sorting out THE MOST NUANCED situation you can get???  40-60% (depending on who you believe) of kids with ASD also have ID.  Our kids are like these freaks of function and dysfunction at the same time.  This behaviorist spent HOURS going through interview-based tests that could sort stuff out. 

 

My ds has been through *4* evals now in the last year.  Seriously.  Don't expect this to be done in one.  Maybe you'll be stinkin' lucky.  I'm just saying *I* wouldn't wait 8 months to get intervention started on that kid.  That behaviorist was able to get us in very quickly.  Keep looking for options, both for the ASD question *and* the SLD question.

 

And fwiw, my ds had really funky scores on the CELF (a detailed language test).  This could end up a MUCH more detailed, challenging situation than you anticipate.  My ds, at 7, could not sort by colors.  I didn't even realize, till we started doing a GEMS unit that wanted him to sort felt buttons by colors and he couldn't!  So those meltdowns are showing you your ds is hitting some serious walls.  There may be more walls in there.  The sooner you get those found *with thorough evals* the sooner you can get started on them.  

 

Well whatever, I'm just sort of in the thick of things.  As his demands have stepped up this year, we've just had a lot of problems. Lots of bolting, meltdowns, problems, extreme problems.  And it's stuff that at 6 we were like oh yeah, bad but under control.  Now, honestly, well let's just say it's a LOT worse.  And we had people who were like Oh I know we gave you this diagnosis (ADHD, ASD, etc.), but homeschooling is so MAGICAL you won't need the standard interventions for it (meds, ABA, etc.).  Wrong.  

[PeterPan]

. A doctor had recommended an OT eval for my older son but they completely missed his dysgraphia, hypotonia, and a few other things. This son has amazing core strength (he stands on his head a lot! lol) but he's always falling all over the place during his soccer games. It is weird.

 

Ladies, thank you so much for your input. I feel like I waited too long for interventions with my older kids and I didn't know if I was overreacting the other way this time. I'm going to start with the Barton screening and see how that goes.

Sometimes OTs deal with tone, but that can also go under PT.  Definitely they should both have OT evals as part of the ASD question.  Can be a clinic with a team.  OTs vary, but if you find one who is SIPT-certified at a place where they're treating a lot of ASD, that can be a really good sign.  Or an OT who works at ASD charter schools in your area.    My ds get neurofeedback, balavisX, RMT for reflexes, etc.  Very worthwhile.

 

Oh, with those head stands, look into gymnastics!!!  Seriously.  He's probably doing it for the sensory input, but gymnastics *can* be a surprisingly great sport for some ASD kids.  My ds needs a lot longer than anyone else to learn the skill, but he definitely enjoys it.  It puts him in a really good place for sensory.  We're usually in the gym 3-4 days a week and then swim another 3-4 days a week.  The gymnastics though is just super for his sensory, his tone, his sense of self, and he gets to work on social conventions like standing in line, apologizing, etc.  

 

The other thing you can do is get them a chin-up bar.  You can get push up bars          Fuel Pureformance Push Up Bars, Pair       And they just sit on the floor.  They can practice their L hold that way or do pushups on them.  $8 and the muscle work will make them feel good!           Stamina Doorway Trainer Plus (Black, Chrome)       There's the chin up bar. $30.  You can have a list of these things and pick 3-4 each day for sort of a warm-up to get their brains and bodies focused.  Chin ups, push ups head stands...

[kbutton]

FS, since you said it, yes, I'll say it.  You probably have a much more complex situation.  And you know our first eval, when ds was newly 6, was really hard, at least for me, to pin down whether there was autism.  The psych was, well I have NO POLITE FRENCH for this...  Man I get riled up!  Anyways, I'm just going to say that now, at newly 7, I'M NO LONGER CONFUSED.  

 

That's why I'm saying, to me, I would get some kind of eval pronto, soon, now, and get the SLD questions discussed.  You can stay on that 6-8 month list, sure.  See if any Hoagies' list psychs are near you.  You want an IQ and a CTOPP.  If they give you crap about not doing the CTOPP, move on.  Honestly, my ds also needed the CELF.

 

We didn't get a diagnosis of ASD until age 9. It was kind of a surprise, and we just stumbled onto a good psych because our son was in a gifted enrichment program (not at school) who could recommend a psych that knows gifted with exceptionalities. She's on Hoagies' list, so you might find a real gem of a psych on there. Your developmental ped might be fine, but I have no direct experience with that kind of practitioner.

 

I wanted to echo the no longer confused thing--it really does start to become apparent, but when you're in the thick of things, sometimes you need someone to step up and make the suggestion of what could be wrong to get you to move on your own concerns. 

 

Also, the vision thing came up, and OhElizabeth suggested hearing/CAPD--both of those things have come into play with my kids. Lots and lots of people don't do typical screenings, and even more people don't realize that there are *better* screenings out there as well (using a COVD optometrist, using an audiologist, not just the ped screening). Those screenings are pocket change compared to some of the big things that can be going on. 

[ElizabethB]

​I would work on spelling 2 letter words and syllables ala Webster while trying to figure out what the underlying problem is.

 

You can start out with basic long vowel words and syllables, long vowels are easier to blend than short vowels. Work on them for a few weeks and then move on to spelling short vowel syllables.

 

Start with me and mo and my (Mo like the name of the Robot in Wall-E.) M, N, L, and R are the easiest to blend, all other consonants get a bit of their sound cut off when they blend with vowels. (And, with short vowels, you do not want to blend L and R at first, they distort the sound of the vowel somewhat.)

 

So, start with these 4 long vowel syllables from Webster, in syllables the a will be long like in ma-ker or na-ture. Y has its I sound, long I in a syllable.

 

ma me mi mo mu my

na ne ni no nu ny

la le li lo lu ly

ra re ri ro ru ry

 

Keep demonstrating the blending while working on the spelling.

 

Then, try to figure out if there is an underlying problem--a few ideas are visual, check out a covd.org doctor, or phonemic, try some phonemic awareness activities and the Barton student screening to see if you need a program like LiPS. 

 

Phonemic awareness is not innate, you will want to read Dahaene's book, it also goes into other problems and what is going on with the brain during reading, something in there should be helpful for you.  Here is the post with his quote about phonemic awareness:

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/579830-phonemic-awareness-quotes-from-stanislas-dehaene/

 

I have pretty much abandoned these videos but they are still on my website in draft, video number 2 has an explanation about how sounds change when they are blended together to make words:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/RELTR/reltrlinks.html

 

Also, my dyslexia page, 1/2 of the way down or so, shows pictures of actual sounds, showing that the sounds in words DO NOT easily separate out into letter sound approximations, but appear as one giant sound blob.  Syllables do separate out well.  

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/dyslexia.html

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2015 by ElizabethB

[PeterPan]

If he doesn't pass the Barton pretest, he's not ready to work on spelling 2 letter words.  LIPS is going to be multi-sensory, a standard in dyslexia instruction.  There's no reason to take a dc with suspected developmental difficulties, who probably has multiple processing paths compromised, and LIMIT him merely to print.  He should be able to work with the sound to written relationship using EVERY MODALITY.  Use kinesthetic, use auditory, use visual, use it all!  We used sand/salt trays, LIPS pictures, sandpaper letters (cheap on amazon!), hand motions, the sensory inputs of our speech methodology (PROMPT), physically forming the letters and things to represent the letters with our bodies, etc. etc.  Multi-sensory is where it's at.

 

This early stage, getting his brain to connect sound to written, was the MOST ROCKET SCIENCE of all the things we've done for reading.  Seriously.  After that, his giftedness kicked in.  He still needs help, still needs explicit instruction, and oy does he have comprehension issues!  BUT the sound to written, that was the part to invest everything into.  Go multi-modal, use Wiki Sticks and salt trays and write it on their backs and in the air and say it and feel it and see it and trace it and touch it and rearrange it and organize it.  The BRILLIANCE of LIPS is that it both helps them FEEL the connection and see the connection, *and* it is something they can use to organize their brains.  Kids with ASD have issues with categories.  What we did was use a really killer awesome letter magnet set from Lakeshore Learning (which I highly recommend!!!) and for every face we did with LIPS we learned all the written expressions.  And this was super mind-numbingly tedious, because we were adding them a few at a time using all the modalities.  So, for instance, the letter O has 4 sounds.  That meant he had to be covered 4 times with 4 of the LIPS faces!  And for each one, we did it a week, both directions (sound to written, written to sound).  AND we organized them.  So I'd through out all the faces and say tell them to me.  Then we'd arrange them on a 17X20 magnetic whiteboard.  Then we'd go through his vat of letters he had learned, and of course the letter was there repeated for each face it needed to go under, so it could be a pile!  And for all those he had to arrange them.  That's classifying.  That's an ASD issue.  

 

I'm saying that's how particular you're going to be.  Don't just print off some page and read it.  We have MUCH more effective tools.  Multiple modalities, making sure his brain is organized and knows them every direction (sound to written, written to sound), AND in every context.  We have a generalization issue with ASD, so we're wanting to make sure that that letter has that sound and means the same thing to him EVERY TIME he sees it, in every context.  So you're driving around town and you're calling out /a/ when you see As and you're playing word games like what is the first sound in "top", because we want those skills to be there everywhere, in all contexts, not just with one font on one type of printed page.  Everywhere.  Lots of ways, lots of modalities.  

 

And I said this, but really that was the horribly hard part.  The rest has been just normal hard.  Like with gifted you don't expect it to be *any* hard, and comparatively it was just normal hard.  Except comprehension, since that is bordering on non-existent, lol.  I'm just saying don't freak out and think ALL of it will be that way.  And maybe it won't be that way for you.  It's just how it was for us.  And, you know, I'm extremely biased.  I have BAD MEMORIES of being taught with McGuffey readers when I was a kid.  I'm a really stupendous reader now, gifted (I think) at linguistics, etc. etc.  But those McGuffey readers just hit me at the wrong age, the wrong stage (I was 5) and left a really bad taste in my mouth.  If the kid has broken the code and he thinks old stuff, b&w stuff is fun, by all means.  I think my ds might enjoy McGuffey readers now.  But this is something where for not a ton of money we can really POP, with multiple modalities, great tools (salt tray = FREE), etc.  

[PeterPan]

Here are those magnets.  If you sign up for texts, they frequently have coupons.  http://www.lakeshorelearning.com/product/productDet.jsp?productItemID=1%2C689%2C949%2C371%2C896%2C957&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=1408474395181113&bmUID=1450529241830

 

Gander Publishing - LiPS® Manual - Fourth Edition

 

LiPS® Mouth Picture Magnets (15)

 

Didax DD-210829 Tactile Sandpaper Lowercase Letters

 

Then just use a jelly roll pan with salt in it for a salt tray.  

 

If you google HWT handwriting ideas, you'll probably get a list.  I have the HWT K5 manual, so I just looked in there.  It's obvious things like write it in the air, write it on their backs, write it on their hand.  

 

Wikki Stix Alphabet Fun Cards for Learning  We used these some.  Not a ton, but they can be fun.

 

Movement Activities A to Z  We did this on the younger end (4-5), but it's a LOT of fun.  Has multi-step instructions, so you can use this to work on following instructions and working memory too!  Remember, working memory is something that will have to increase for him to blend.  If he functionally has 2 digits, then by the time you have to do letter, letter, blend, that needs 3!!!  He literally doesn't have enough, or at least my ds didn't.  So we began doing all kinds of little things, drip drip, to work on working memory.  LIPS will help, ABSOLUTELY, but you can add in little things.  Like we would have a game each day that would bring in working memory.  And we'd do a kinesthetic activity with instructions he'd have to repeat and follow, eventually finding a prize.  And we did digit spans.  So you saw that right, that again it's LOTS of modalities, not just ONE.  Kinesthetic AND visual AND auditory AND...  See? And not hard stuff, just fun, just with things you already have or can do for free/cheap.  We have lots of fun.  When the fun stops, learning stops.  

 

Bal-A-Vis-X: Rhythmic Balance/Auditory/Vision eXercises for Brain and Brain-Body Integration SECOND EDITION  This is balavisX.  You can buy the book and implement it yourself.  I used homemade beanbags when we started.  Our OT now does it, and she uses raquetballs you can buy at walmart in big tubs for not too much money.  But homemade beanbags (like literally just some fabric and beans and I serged them!) is where we started and it was good.  The book will have a couple pages of things you can do just with beanbags before needing balls.  The balanceboard is optional.  My ds uses it many days, but he's pretty advanced now.  Like he can do I think 5 or 6 balls at once and waterfalls and...  Seriously!  And even a wobble board you could build yourself if you're feeling handy.  This does not *have* to be super expensive.  A lot of these options are $25 and under, kwim?  LIPS is the only wicked expensive thing, and you'll have good resale value.

 

Learning Resources Square Color Tiles (Set of 400)  You probably already have these.  I used them instead of the Barton tiles, even though there weren't as many colors, because I wanted to be able to build more words, compare, etc.  It's the gifted thing.  Even when we do simple things, we're kicking it up because they CAN.

 

Focus Moves: Integrated Activities for Collaboration  This is the S'cool Moves/Focus Moves book I used with him.  I'm not saying it's the ultimate ultimate, but it is something OTs use.  It's easy to implement. (I printed the picture posters that I blew up onto pages and put in page protectors in a notebook.)  I paired it with RAN/RAS dots.  Now RAN/RAS I would *not* do before you get the CTOPP, because those abnormal scores there are part of the diagnosis.  That's why I'm saying get that CTOPP pronto, kwim?  But absolutely, RAN/RAS is something you can work on.  I've posted the link before to the free files in my dropbox.  FREE.  So easy to work on, and RAN/RAS is DIRECTLY correlated with strong reading, even more than decoding.  RAN/RAS=Rapid Naming.  You literally just sit there and read/name across the rows.  Do that for a few minutes every day and watch them improve!  For my ds, it was rocket science, but he has a pretty thick list of challenges.  Anyways, that work DEFINITELY made his decoding go better, simply because he could NAME things faster and plow through sounds faster.  You cannot go wrong working on RAN/RAS.  

 

Here's the dropbox link to my RAN/RAS files.  They aren't brilliant, just dots made on the computer.  I've also posted links in the past to some research on RAN/RAS and why we need to do this.  But free is fine, don't have to have swanky software to make progress.  And for us, it was a way to take a break, bring in some kinesthetic, get our bodies and brains reconnected.  Once he could do the RAN/RAS, we started bringing in metronome work.  So then we were reading the RAN/RAS dots to a metronome beat (app) to engage the Executive Function!  Oh yeah!  :)  https://www.dropbox.com/sh/4rcl6f0uo70esmv/AAAaGAHw3_YTMEQZSw_WI-t_a?dl=0

Edited December 19, 2015 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

Ooo, this list of handwriting strategies is terrific!  

 

http://therapystreetforkids.com/Handwriting.html

[Ottakee]

I agree with the evals.

 

A program that I LOVE and you can easily get started with is I See Sam  www.3rsplus.com or www.iseesam.com  You can find the first 2 sets of books online to print out for free.  They start out learning only 5 sounds (s, m, short a, I (as in the word) and ee--long sound) and blend them into 3 words and start reading.  They move VERY slowly with introducing new sounds and words and give tons of practice.  You can move through the books as fast as he can or as slow as he needs to..........one of mine honestly took 2 WEEKS to get through the first book that only had 3 words.  Amazing as it sounds, if you can get through the first few books, it gets EASIER for the child, even as the reading level increases.

[PeterPan]

You can get the I See Sam books as pdfs for free if you google.  I forget where I found them.  You pay on amazon, but they're free as pdfs.  Oh duh, Ottakee said that, lol.  Anyways, you can try.  My ds couldn't make progress with them.  He'd read the whole book (this was after LIPS and Barton 1 and I think Barton 2) and he'd read it and then not know the word.  I don't know.  As bizarre as it sounds, they didn't work for us.  But they're cute.  Maybe he'd like them now?  Actually what he has been liking now is The Reading Game.  Amazon.com: The Reading Game - 2nd Edition: Toys & Games  We're using the 1st edition, which is $25.  This 2nd edition seems to have added some more (really nifty!) components, making it $35.  Anyways, my ds really enjoys it.  He's in Barton 4, and for him now it's within reach, something where he can read the single sentence, see a huge illustration, and try to figure out the humor.  And the books are curious because they eliminate punctuation and caps in the text.  Maybe they're there in the 2nd edition?  I see them on the cards.  Anyways, it's kind of interesting because it's like saying yes, think about this and we know that the comprehension is so hard that we'll just give you one less thing to think about, kwim?  That's how it comes across to me.  He enjoys the stories.  

 

There are also High Noon readers, same gig, high interest low decoding level.  You're going to have a lot of work to do before you're ready for that.  I'm just saying once you get through that very multi-sensory early stage, you'll have lots of choices to see what interests them enough.  I just got my ds joke books.  I'm thinking the single lines might work for him.  You can get books like Jokes for Kids on amazon for $2 right now, and that's a print paperback!  National Geographic has some awesome joke books that we found through the library.

Edited December 19, 2015 by OhElizabeth

[Lecka]

I don't have any "sure thing" suggestions.

 

I have some favorite resources, though :)

 

I liked some things about Abecedarian reading. They have a free error correction guide, and a free blending/segmenting guide. The error correction guide was extremely helpful to me. For the blending/segmenting guide ---- it was not exactly useful, I should have adapted it to use letter tiles though.

 

http://www.abcdrp.com/docs/ABCD_ErrorCorrectionPractice.pdfI love this error correction guide. I also watch the videos on youtube that go along with this error correction guide.

 

http://www.abcdrp.com/docs/ABCD_WABS_03.pdfThis is the link for the blending/segmenting guide.

 

I used Abecedarian Level B with my son, and we had a good experience. But it is a program where there are other people on the forum who have done it and it has not been as helpful. You can look at samples, though, which is nice.

 

Then, this is a separate issue.

 

Did you know, there is a level that is lower than "blending and letter sounds and phonics"? It is the phonemic awareness level. It is things like "rhyming, what two words start with the same sound, what two words have the same vowel sound, etc."

 

This level, partly comes *before* blending and segmenting. At the same time, this level partly comes *at the same time* as working on blending and segmenting. But if you are doing all direct "letter sounds and blending" but maybe the child does not get "b b ball, ball starts with b" stuff ---- this is part of the picture.

 

There are books just for phonemic awareness, but they are mostly all-oral (which is supposed to be great, but my son learned better when he had some written letters, too, and for phonemic awareness, some stuff is very "no, don't use written letters."). If all-oral works, that is supposed to be very good. The other problem, these books are generally aimed at pre-school Kindergarten. But it is worth looking on Amazon under "phonemic awareness" and seeing if your library has any of these books. I haven't personally had them go really well, but I think it is good stuff.

 

http://www.readingrockets.org/teaching/reading101/phonemicThis page from Reading Rockets has a good overview of phonemic awareness. If you google "phonemic awareness" on amazon, you can also get a good overview by reading the free sample introductions.

 

This is a link from this page, to the page for "blending and segmenting games." http://www.readingrockets.org/strategies/blending_games

 

So, maybe your child needs more foundation with the phonemic awareness stuff, and that will help with the letter sounds/phonics. Maybe you can use the regular resources, and your child picks it up.

 

Or, maybe your child does not pick it up so well. Or, you know there has been major exposure to this stuff, he just has never quite been able to give the answers. Then you may look at this: https://bartonreading.com/students/#ssThis is the student screening for Barton reading. It might show your child needs to do even more foundational work, before going into phonemic awareness, and then will need a little time with phonemic awareness, before moving into letter sounds and phonics. Fun times.

 

This is just another favorite resource of mine, it is available at our library. http://www.amazon.com/Phonics-2nd-Scholastic-Teaching-Strategies/dp/0439845114/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1450533992&sr=8-1&keywords=wiley+blevins+phonics+a-zThis is a good book about learning to read!

 

This is why a screening/eval would be helpful. They could tell you if phonemic awareness is a problem, or not. If it is a problem, you focus in on it. If it is not -- well, you don't focus in on it. And, if it is not, then they tell you something else to look at.

 

But it is really common.

 

I don't really have a "try this program" kind of recommendation. It is hard, b/c you would need to try to figure out if your child has the phonemic awareness skills and stuff. If he passes the Barton student screening, is one thing to look at. Then kids are just different, it is not the same going on with every child.

 

Here are some general ideas, though.

 

Are you working on all the letters at the same time? Considering cutting back to just 4 letters to start. Consider having them be easier letters (easier letters can be held like mmmmm, sssss -- so they are easier than letters like d, t, k, that have to be said quickly). Don't have e and i at the same time, they are more easily confused. The Phonics A-Z book iirc talks about good first letters to learn and an order where they are less likely to be confused.

 

But cutting back to just 4 letters, and then adding 1-2 new letters at a time, can be helpful. You can work on learning these 4 letters and learning to blend/segment with them. It is an option, it might be helpful, it might not. It can help kids learn the letter sounds more easily if they are working with them that way, or it can make it harder.

 

That is one idea.

 

Another idea, don't ask questions he can't answer. It will lead to behavior issues. You want him to be successful. So, if he can't answer the easiest question, where does that leave you? Here are two suggestions. One, have him repeat the answer after you have given it. For example, you sound out "ssssaaaaammmm" for him and then you say "sam" and then you say "okay, your turn, ssssaaaammmm" and then if he says "sam" you can be like "AWESOME" even though he has just paid attention and copied you. This is a way to start, though. You do this a while, and then maybe you sound out "ssssaaaa" and point at the letter m or just pause, and hope your son supplies the "mmmm" or maybe after you pause and he doesn't, you supply it yourself. But you hope eventually ---- he will start filling in the smallest steps and not only completely copying. But all along you are saying "awesome" "good listening" "nice" "high five" type stuff.

 

Another option like that is "let's do it together" and you do it together, and if he comes in a little later than you, you are happy because he came in. This is still copying you and very supported. But, it can be a start.

 

Another idea is games, where he is not put on the spot to answer, but maybe there is a space for him to answer (but then you answer if he doesn't) or you fake like it is taking you a minute to figure it out to create the space. But the space is there, and if he doesn't take it, you can do "let's say it together" or you can start to say it slow and see if he finishes it for you. Or you can say it blended but like ssssaaaammmm and see if he can go from there to saying "sam" even if he can't go from seeing the letters sam to blending sssaaaammm on his own. Maybe there is a step in there he CAN do and you go back to that step.

 

So, these are things to think about as options. (Edit: I meant to say, backing up to stuff like rhyming words or "what is a word that starts with mmmm" might be good, the "backing up" angle. If this is too open-ended, you can hold up two things, and say, "okay, I have a sssssandwich and a mmmmmmmarshmallow, which one starts with mmmmmm?" Like -- if you make it that easy, can he do it? And then "oh, you can eat the marshmallow!" if you can work that in (or anything where you work in eating something tasty). Like -- can you back up and have it work out? Backing out is always an idea. Giving a choice with hints is always a choice instead of starting with an open-ended answer. You can work up from there, if needed.

 

I do think there is a lot to be said for getting an eval and doing a lot of reading. There are a lot of options, and there is a lot of terminology.

http://www.readingrockets.org/teaching/reading101This has little blurbs about some of the terminology, like "phonemic awareness" "decoding" and "fluency." These words mean certain things. Don't skip "the sounds of speech," b/c it could be an issue, since learning letter sounds is an issue.

 

I would also ask you: does he know *any* letters. He might not. He might actually know a few. He might know the first letter in his name, and the letter a. If he does ----- this is a start!

 

26 letters is a lot of letters. Sometimes it is good to look at 26 like it is a big number, and you are happy when he is doing good with 4 letters, then with 10 letters.

 

If this is your situation, you have GOT to have a program that uses controlled words in some way, b/c if this is the case, any program where in Lesson 5 they assume "the child knows the basic sounds for all 26 letters" then this equals a huge problem. You can make progress in reading skills like blending/segmenting using just those letters! This is something to keep in mind. It might help you to rule things out or to know you will adapt them.

 

If he is solid on 4-5 letters, you work with those. You don't suddenly go "okay, now in Lesson 5, here are an additional 10 letters and you don't know them." You can slow things down in some way, but this is a major frustration to deal with, so keep an eye out for it.

 

Edit: All this is harder if your child is aware that things are "babyish." I have not really dealt with "babyish" issues. That is a reason people use Barton or a program called High Noon sometimes ----- they are supposed to be good for kids who think things are "babyish." That might be a non-issue for your 6-year-old, or maybe he would be hurt if you said "awesome" or "high five" for something he thinks is babyish. If this is an issue ----- there are options. But my ideas might not be so good for a child who feels this way.

Edited December 19, 2015 by Lecka

[geodob]

As an almost 6 year old?

I would ask if he understands the 'concept of letters'?

As this can be a problem?

Where basically they look at a letter.

But it doesn't look anything like the sound?

 

 

Letters are just abstract symbols, to represent different sounds.

Without any reason behind them.

The sound of 'd' could be represented by any sort of symbol.

Where a problem can be, with a child trying to make sense of 'd' as a sound?

Where the solution for them?

Is to understand that their is no sense to letter shapes?

They are just meaningless squiggles, to represent different sounds.

 

While a duck quacks, 'd' doesn't make the sound 'd' ?

It is just an abstract symbol to represent a sound.

Where children can have a difficulty with understanding that letters are just abstract symbols to represent sounds.

[Faithful_Steward]

We hosted family for Christmas this weekend, so I'm still reading through all of the replies. I gave ds the Barton screening this morning and he failed every section. :(

 

He doesn't have ASD. He is on the waiting list for a full clinic that will do all the evals. I requested this particular clinic because the doctor is the best in the state and I trust him. My insurance will cover anything done through his clinic or with his referral, but anything else is out of pocket. I'm lucky to have received the referral to this clinic in the first place and I had to fight tooth and nail to get it. The local school is overcrowded and giving me the run-around, which is why I wanted ds to be evaluated at the clinic with the educational psychologist in office. This doctor is great with adhd/gifted kiddos because he and his own children have the same diagnosis. :) He was able to qualify my older ds for a state disability scholarship without an ASD diagnosis and he will do his best to get younger ds all of the accomodations and invervention he possibly can. All that to say, we're heading in the right direction as far as getting help but it is going to be a few months before we get there.

 

DS can look at pictures and match it with the letter that begins its name, as long as he has already learned the letters and sounds. For example, his ETC A book had a page that showed a turtle, belt, tent, money, television, fence, kitten, and balloon. There is a wheel that has m,b,t,b,f,k and he is able to match  the correct pictures and letters. He doesn't know the letter names, though, just the sounds. And if he sees the letter b in isolation, he might say /d/.

 

I was discouraged at the Barton screening, but maybe I just need to use something more explicit until we get the evals and find out exactly what is going on.

 

ETA: I'm going to make an appointment to see his primary care physician and see if he will give us a referral to see a SLP. He needs speech anyways, but his family practice doctor didn't see a need last time I asked him. I usually have to push. *sigh* They can give the CTOPP? That might get us help a little bit earlier.

Edited December 21, 2015 by Faithful_Steward

[PeterPan]

Barton recommends you do LIPS if they completely fail the Barton pretest.  Sounds like it's challenging for you to get referrals for evals, wow.  Keep working on it.  You're on the right path and you're not crazy.

[Lecka]

That is great news that he knows some letter sounds.

 

A lot of programs do not focus on letter names, just sounds. Or, they have letter names later. Letter sounds is a good deal.

 

I hope the answer is "no," but is there any chance he has memorized the results of the picture wheel? It is something to look for sometimes. If he has, that is okay, he has still learned something. But you need to check that he can do this same skill with different pictures or in different ways. I am just mentioning this. It is something to look for if you are using a program and you are spending a long time on one step. There is a risk of memorizing the answer instead of learning the thing. But, it can still be a first step, it is not bad. It is just something to watch for.

 

Failing the Barton student screening is really good information, too.

 

It gives you a direction to go in!

 

I get confused on this, but there is phonological awareness and phonemic awareness. Phonological awareness is with letter sounds (or speech sounds). It is a lower level than phonemic awareness, which is with segmenting and blending.

 

My son went to speech therapy with this and with articulation. There is some difference between "phonological processes" and "traditional articulation." I don't quite understand it. It is what both my son's have, though. They have a pattern of errors that is related to "phonological processes." In good news -- my older son improved a lot with working on it. He talks well now and he reads well.

 

That might not be what ends up being the case, there are different things that can look the same way in some ways.

 

But this is the kind of thing it was for my son. I haven't actually watched the "sounds of speech" section from Reading Rockets (that I linked) but I think it will be about this kind of thing.

 

I did not do Lips (as recommended with Barton) b/c my son was going to be in speech therapy anyway, and he covered the same things in speech therapy.

 

I really believe that almost all the time -- this is stuff that kids can learn. And it is frustrating to look and see "oh, great, I am two foundational skill levels behind." But, it is stuff that can be learned with time and effort. But it is good to have a bit of a path forward (or at least some ideas to look into) instead of just spinning your wheels and wondering why it is so hard.

 

Oh, when you look at this page https://bartonreading.com/student-result/#sfand it says "auditory discrimination" that is also talking about telling apart speech sounds. Discrimination here means "telling two things apart." A common example is "cap" and "cat" ---- they might sound about the same. So you have to practice (in various ways) hearing the p and t really clearly and hearing the difference between them, at first maybe just with somebody saying "p" and "t" pretty loudly and clearly while paying attention to what you are doing with your mouth as you say the two different sounds. Over time that works up to practicing with this in words. In the beginning of a word is usually easier than in the end of a word. By itself is usually easier than as part of a blend (like sp- st- could sound similar ---- those are the only s blends I can think of with p and t for this example.... but if it was k ---- there are a lot of blends with k, like sk- and cr- dr- fr- gr- tr- ).

 

I don't mean, it would be exactly like that, but in general ---- it could be along these lines.

 

All the reading stuff got easier (not easy, lol, but comparatively much easier) once my son was solid with letter sounds and blending, everything got much easier. Every step of reading was not that hard, so that was nice :)

Edited December 22, 2015 by Lecka

[ElizabethB]

Search phonemic awareness on this board and work on that while waiting for further info.

 

It is not innate for anyone, and for those with an underlying speech or hearing problem, it must be taught more explicitly and with more repetition. LiPS is good, there are various free or cheap exercises to do if you don't want to get LiPS until you get more answers.

 

The app sounds of speech by the university of iowa is good for showing how the sound are made, do kinestetic and graphic work with the associated letter while watching and seeing how the sounds are made. The also have the sounds free online on their website somewhere, but the app is really cheap for what it does. It takes a bit of poking around to get it to play the sounds, it is not intuitive, they did not make it to make money and sell a lot of apps.

[Lecka]

That sounds really good. There are resources out there :)

[Faithful_Steward]

Update:

 

Just got the results of testing. He has dyslexia and pretty severe dysgraphia. Ruled out asd, confirmed ADHD. No real surprises. I am soooo glad to have caught this early!

 

I'm going to post later with questions about the results, but I just wanted to thank everyone again for your help and update this for anyone who stumbles on this later.

 

Deep breath... 😎

[Storygirl]

I'm glad you caught it early. I suspected dyslexia in DD10 when she was five (alarm bells began to ring when she was four), but didn't know what to do about it other than keep trying. I wasn't a member of this board then and wasn't connected with anyone in real life who could offer adequate advice.

 

So as sad as it is to get a diagnosis, it's a really good thing to get one early on. I wish you well!