...

[Gil]

...

Edited July 17, 2016 by Gil

[maize]

We went to a neuropsychologist, most of the cost was covered by insurance.

 

Firm discipline will only backfire if you have a strong-willed kid with a strong sense of and need for personal autonomy; I know because I was such. a kid. The harder someone pushed me to comply, the more need I had to resist external control. If this is the kind of kid you have, you will never win a battle of wills. Focus on mutual respect and building a strong relationship, think of yourself as s mentor mot a disciplinarian.

 

Best wishes!

[Gil]

...

Edited July 17, 2016 by Gil

[maize]

What type of tests or evaluations did the NP perform?

There doesn't seem to be one in my city and I would love to have an appointment this year. Is there another place can perform similar or the same exams?

They did a slew of tests--IQ testing, academic testing, there were also a couple of behavioral type questionnaires for me to fill out. We ended up with a few diagnoses including ADHD.

 

Are you near a larger city? There aren't a ton of neuropsychologists in my area but you can find them if you are willing to drive. An educational psychologist through the public school system may also be an option, access for homeschoolers seems to be variable though. You could start by talking to your pediatrician or family doctor about what you are seeing; there are some assessments they can do themselves and they should be able to refer you for others. Good luck! This stuff can be tricky to navigate. If you've got a 2E kid life will always be interesting. You can Also post on the special needs board, there are folks there who have been navigating these waters for a long time. There is a parenting intense children social group as well.

Edited November 24, 2015 by maize

[Arcadia]

:grouphug:

 

Do you have a nurse line where you can call and get a referral? Do you need a referral for insurance to pay for NP or can you go direct?

 

If you can go direct, is there a children's hospital driving distance away? If there is start calling.

 

It could be a defiance phase but it is worth checking to give you peace of mind and a just in case it is something else.

 

ETA:

I was the kid who think nothing about roaming the streets alone after sunset at 8 in an area with gangs demarcated territories. Nothing other than a hyper independent personality.

 

I also have an uncle (1 or 2 years older) who manipulates his younger brother (my age). Which is why it is tough to tell whether to let it be and to see what can be done.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Arcadia

[TranquilMind]

We went to a neuropsychologist, most of the cost was covered by insurance.

 

Firm discipline will only backfire if you have a strong-willed kid with a strong sense of and need for personal autonomy; I know because I was such. a kid. The harder someone pushed me to comply, the more need I had to resist external control. If this is the kind of kid you have, you will never win a battle of wills. Focus on mutual respect and building a strong relationship, think of yourself as s mentor mot a disciplinarian.

 

Best wishes!

Someone should have told me this before I had kids.  Or I should have known it, as I was the same, though somehow it eluded me since I didn't have a mother who fought me.

 

Good luck.  The teen years were rough (for both my mom with me, and one of my kids with me), but my mom once said something I have never forgotten about how these difficult teens will fight your battles for you when you are older and not up to it, so if you just live through the teen years, it gets better.  This has proven true on both ends here. 

 

Good things are coming. 

Edited November 24, 2015 by TranquilMind

[quark]

What type of tests or evaluations did the NP perform?

There doesn't seem to be one in my city and I would love to have an appointment this year. Is there another place can perform similar or the same exams?

 

If you live close to universities or research hospitals, check to see if their psych departments run clinical studies where cognitive testing will be administered. That was how we ended up testing. These studies (often autism/ adhd based) usually need boys between the ages of 6 and 10 thereabouts as control participants. You will need to fill in questionnaires on behavior, and other things but nothing overly exhausting. You might even be reimbursed for gas or time taken. The one DS was in used the WISC4 test. You won't get a lot of interpretation but that's something a gifted-specific psych might be able to do for you over the phone once you have results in hand and the phone conversations usually cost much less than in person visits.

 

[Scarlett]

This kids behavior is driving me up the wall and clearly we need to change something, but I don't know what. Which tests are a good place to start?

 

Pal has always been "a handful" or "spirited" or whatever euphemism you want to use for " a bratty, but darling child" but lately, it is like he's suddenly been replaced by an evil-doppelgänger who is bent on driving the world to its knees.  Frankly, there has been a drastic shift in his personality and I don't know what the hell is wrong with him.

 

Previously Pal was a spirited, hyper-active kid who sometimes just couldn't help himself. But he was always a charmer, who needed a lot of firm discipline to keep him in line. Lately, its become apparent to me that he's intentionally being bad as he can be each chance that he gets. All my tried and true tactics for regulating his behavior have begun to fail.

 

He's seriously getting on my nerves and I am nearing the end of my rope with him.

I sorely miss the days when there wasn't a battle of wills and wits every .34 seconds.

 

 

How old is he?

 

My high spirited, very bright son was always agreeable and compliant.  One day when he was barely 4 he went sort of nuts, just seemingly doing anything and everything he could to defy me.  I was nearly out of my mind.....no punishment or consequence worked.  

 

It is a long story but the end of it is that I showed him a letter from the neighbors who were threatening CPS (I told him police since he wouldn't understand CPS) on us for some of the stuff he was doing.  He looked at me very seriously and nodded his head...and that was that.  He never did that stuff again.

[daijobu]

...but my mom once said something I have never forgotten about how these difficult teens will fight your battles for you when you are older and not up to it, so if you just live through the teen years, it gets better.  

 

 

I heard a mom friend say to his son, "Your perseverance is going to sever you very well as an adult, but right now I need you to do what I say."  

[Black-eyed Suzan]

While you are waiting for your appt, you may want to try ideas from parenting books.

 

I have this book, but haven't read it yet. Hopefully it cure all the behavior issues in our house.  :lol:

 

You Can't Make Me (But I Can Be Persuaded)

 

And my mother found this method when I was driving her up the wall.   

 

Love and Logic

 

 

[MamaSprout]

We went through something like this. It lasted four years. We ended up homeschooling because the only school in the area that would work with out of level kids was horrified by how "high spirited" (their words) she was. She's the youngest in our large family, and nobody would consider us permissive parents, although we were leaning strongly to the unschooling side of things at the time.

 

We had her tested by a neuro who specialized in gifted kids. We never did get good numbers for the tests. She ceilinged some areas and refused to complete others.We ran out of time. We had traveled for the test, so we couldn't reschedule- it was Friday afternoon. We never have retested.

 

We did get feedback on what would be appropriate school scenarios, and how to begin homeschooling. He gave a fantastic brochure on "What a Gifted Child Doesn't Learn" from the Kentucky gifted organization. It changed the way we do everything with this kid. Of course I can't find a link.

 

Basically, in a nut shell, it was about challenging the kid and teaching self-discipline. You can't save the world if you spent the night reading a book instead of sleeping and then can't get out of bed in the morning :o) Basic hygiene is a non-negotiable, even if you're profoundly gifted. It really made a lot of sense.... and I don't think I'm conveying it well.

 

Ultimately, though, what mattered was that we switched to a more rigorous school model (at the neuros recommendation), created some cue phrases for when things were reaching the limit, and had dd sign a contract regarding both her and our rights and responsibilities for educating her, inspired by another parent on another list. It isn't that we are necessarily stricter, but we are more consistent.

 

She's still intense, but with very clear expectations, and lots of brain food (sports, music, languages plus regular school subjects) she's much happier and easier to live with. We actually backed up a year in school, just to lay a foundation for good habits in all areas of her life. Oddly she had been lacking confidence, and this gave a chance to excel as she moved through material quickly and thoroughly (especially the "boring" stuff).

 

To be honest, as helpful as the neuros materials were, the testing really didn't matter for us. I knew this kid needed more structure and different discipline from our other kids, I had just hoped that having the test numbers would give us more options for school. It didn't. When it came down to it, I still needed to school her in a way that was appropriate to her, make her clean up after herself, and be respectful to others.

 

I think we had this book, and it had some helpful strategies. I went to get it off the shelf to double check the title, and I must of given it away in our last book purge.

 

Edited to add- our dc started the battle of wills suddenly, too. It was like someone flicked on a switch. I remember it distinctly.

 

Good luck, and hang in there. It can be exhausting.

Edited November 25, 2015 by elladarcy

[MamaSprout]

Use the authoritative parenting methods.

 

Exercise is helpful....swim team is good.

 

Too tired to argue is a good thing!

[happypamama]

I would talk to your family doctor or pediatrician about testing. When I wanted speech therapy for my son, our doc agreed, and her office set it all up for me. They were able to coordinate with my insurance and everything. I have not pursued gifted testing for my children who are gifted, because at this point, it won't really tell us stuff we don't already know, but if I chose to, I would talk to our doc again. My other option for any of this stuff is my public school, but because it would complicate my life unnecessarily, it's not my first choice. Not sure what the laws are like in your state about public schools providing services for homeschoolers.

 

I have noticed that even my compliant child goes through spells if being a little more argumentative, a few weeks or a couple of months here and there. Like every new stage of development also means that he needs to figure out how he fits into everything. Patience! In our case, it also means he needs more dad time and more dad looking him right in the eye and saying, "I know you can do better." Your kids already have plenty of dad time, but this child, especially, responds well to being treated more man to man than adult to little kid.

 

I forget -- do your boys do martial arts? If not, maybe consider it. If so, talk to the instructor. Ours has ways to address issues from home in class without embarrassing kids, and since he sees lots of kids of all ages and stages, he also has an idea of what's typical and what's not.

[lewelma]

Gil, I had an explosive child.  We never got him tested.  There is a book written by a psychologist who deals with kids with ADHD, Oppositional Defiant Disorder, anxiety disorders etc, and he lays out a very clear plan for how to train these types of kids.  Basically you deal with them as if they have a learning disability -- you don't reward and punish a learning disability. He talks about how reward/punishment is a motivational tool used to encourage kids to do something, but if a kid has a learning disability, he *can't* do it, so reward/punishment is completely ineffective. Instead, you teach them the specific skills in whatever area they are lacking, and the book shows you how to do it.  It was very very effective with my older boy.  It is called, 'The Explosive Child.' http://www.amazon.com/Explosive-Child-Understanding-Frustrated-Chronically/dp/0062270451/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1448480836&sr=1-1&keywords=explosive+child

 

The older edition has more reviews to read to help you get a sense of the book. 

 

Ruth in NZ

Edited November 25, 2015 by lewelma

[mathnerd]

Is he around 8 years old? That is an age when even the most compliant of boys show opposition and challenge of authority - which may or may not be the case here, but just wanted to share that my extremely compliant, cooperative and considerate 8 year old is challenging me frequently when I "require" him to do something. 

 

Anyway, while you await the testing, I would like to second the suggestions above for increasing the exercise and workout that he is getting on a daily basis. My child is in 2 rigorous structured sports with coaches who put him through his paces 5 days/week and there is a huge difference in attitude before and after the workouts. Another thing that helps is that I will only respond if the arguments are made in complete and meaningful sentences with no slang words or poor grammar. I always send my son back to think through his arguments, construct full sentences in his mind and come back when he is ready and that takes some wind out of his sails!

[Gil]

...

Edited July 17, 2016 by Gil

[Targhee]

Gil, I had an explosive child. We never got him tested. There is a book written by a psychologist who deals with kids with ADHD, Oppositional Defiant Disorder, anxiety disorders etc, and he lays out a very clear plan for how to train these types of kids. Basically you deal with them as if they have a learning disability -- you don't reward and punish a learning disability. He talks about how reward/punishment is a motivational tool used to encourage kids to do something, but if a kid has a learning disability, he *can't* do it, so reward/punishment is completely ineffective. Instead, you teach them the specific skills in whatever area they are lacking, and the book shows you how to do it. It was very very effective with my older boy. It is called, 'The Explosive Child.' http://www.amazon.com/Explosive-Child-Understanding-Frustrated-Chronically/dp/0062270451/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1448480836&sr=1-1&keywords=explosive+child

 

The older edition has more reviews to read to help you get a sense of the book.

 

Ruth in NZ

Dr Greens approach is very eye opening as a parent. You can get the fundamentals of his philosophy on why kids explode (or implode, I e got one of those too) and how to reframe your perspective on their behavior by visiting his website - LivesInTheBalance.org The book gives a concrete plan on how to classify and address troublesome behaviors (by getting to the bottom of them, focusing on one behavior at a time, etc) - he gives a very sound blueprint for helping these kids.

[SanDiegoMom]

I never got a handle on my spirited child.  I was way too permissive (and my husband way too authoritative!). But communication was the only thing that kept my daughter from completely going off the edge -- communication during the quiet times when there isn't an issue being fought about.  And there were almost always issues -- she negotiated/fought over every single issue from morning til night.  She made everything the hill to die on and when she was in the heat of the argument punishments meant nothing.  Only winning did. So authoritative methods, when used, only would have ruined our relationship.   Now she complies because she is 16, she knows that this whole time we've been on her side, and she wants the same things we want for her. So for us it was only waiting it out and keeping the lines of communication open.  I do wish I had done more than just marking time -- I would have definitely tried more of the methods above if I had known about them! 

 

Ours started getting the worst around 9 or 10 and lasted until 14 1/2.  There were days when I dreaded her coming home from school. Its not easy not liking to be around your own kid! 

 

For my slightly easier (but more gifted!) son, structure is huge. He never fights me like my oldest did, but he gets so mean and moody. He needs structure and lots of constant snacks. I cannot overemphasize the importance of food.  It changes everything.  

[MEmama]

In our case it was Lyme disease that went undiagnosed for a year.

 

Probably not your situation, but I would have never suspected it here either.

[Junie]

One idea to try:

 

One of my daughters was very difficult when she was young.  We found out that she is allergic to Red #40 and it caused major behavioral problems.  Once we took all of the red food coloring out of her diet, the bad behavior (almost) completely stopped.  It was very obvious that the food dye was the problem.

 

 

Also:  For kids who are strong-willed, it helps to give them a set of narrowed-down choices.  So, say for instance a child wants to wear shorts outside when it's 20 degrees outside, you could pull out a pair of jeans and some sweat pants and let him choose.  Some kids get overwhelmed when they have too many choices.

 

 

[MomOfABunch]

Around age 8, my oldest boys' behavior was AWEFUL. I seriously remember dreaming of sending that kid off to military school. Lots of physical activity helped. The best thing I did was to take a step back and focus on my relationship with him. I was treating him too much like a little kid and he resented it. I did have testing done for him, and he is truly brilliant. Even though he was a kid age wise, mentally, he was older, KWIM?

We butted heads really hard for a long time about school work. I had to learn to relax. If I say "do this, this and that," he balks, even now. But when I involve him in the planning, he does much better. "This book has 14 chapters and it needs to be done by such and such date. How do you want to break it up?" Having him make these decisions instead of me has made all the difference. Also, working on mutual respect. It's made a world of difference.

[Gil]

...

Edited July 17, 2016 by Gil

[krsmom]

Please rule out potential medical conditions. My dd became very unhappy and mean spirited just before her ninth birthday. It went on for months before I began searching for a good therapist in our area. The week before the first appointment (in part, thanks to the hive) we discovered she had type 1 diabetes. Once she received treatment we had our old daughter back. 

Edited December 28, 2015 by krsmom

[wordshaker]

 

 

We did get feedback on what would be appropriate school scenarios, and how to begin homeschooling. He gave a fantastic brochure on "What a Gifted Child Doesn't Learn" from the Kentucky gifted organization. It changed the way we do everything with this kid. Of course I can't find a link.

 

 

 

Is this it, by any chance?

http://www.portage.k12.in.us/cms/lib2/in01000680/centricity/domain/685/pdfs/april/whatachilddoesntlearn.pdf

[MamaSprout]

Is this it, by any chance?

http://www.portage.k12.in.us/cms/lib2/in01000680/centricity/domain/685/pdfs/april/whatachilddoesntlearn.pdf

Yes! It seems simple, but when it's the lens through which I judge our homeschool, I make better choices for the kid I have. Has it been easy? No. This child started with a battle of wills at that didn't let up for a day for 2-3? years. She does have some health issues that do affect her behavior, but those had been diagnosed in preschool.

 

For us, I had to let go of the image of the gifted learner who magically decides to tackle AoPS at 6. Mine had to learn to take risks... And in order to do that she needed to learn to fail.... And in order to do that, she needed to stop arguing with me long enough to get through a single school day where she had to do work she didn't like and wasn't good at.

 

Hope this is helpful to someone. It took me a long time to realize that there was no magic test score or solution outside our home that was going to give my kiddo the education she needs.

[wordshaker]

 It took me a long time to realize that there was no magic test score or solution outside our home that was going to give my kiddo the education she needs.

 

 

This is just what I need right now. I'm printing the helpful tips to re-read a few times and post up somewhere, but I think your one line pretty well sums it up. It's my 8 year old home schooler that I need this for.

 

But in keeping with the thread, my younger in-school child is the one that is suddenly, after a lifetime of easy going cheer, throwing emotional fits and tantrums. I'm just mystified and waiting it out. Is it school stress? A phase? Lack of sleep lately? It is a marked change. She has to get her way only and be right all the time. 

[MamaSprout]

 

But in keeping with the thread, my younger in-school child is the one that is suddenly, after a lifetime of easy going cheer, throwing emotional fits and tantrums. I'm just mystified and waiting it out. Is it school stress? A phase? Lack of sleep lately? It is a marked change. She has to get her way only and be right all the time.

Sudden change in personality is always worth trying to find the cause. You could have a bullying situation, or it simply may be that school is no longer a good fit. And sometimes, kids go through a phase where they need to be right (FWIW that's how my dd's perfectionism presented itself. It was exhausting to manage). Good luck! Hang in there.